Steve Darling
MP for Torbay · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“Many people may be planning to visit the English riviera this summer, and when they do they may venture on to our coasts. I hope that the Minister will ensure that common sense prevails in appropriately recompensing our coastguards, who put themselves in danger’s way to support people in tragic circumstances.”
“Together with the Heart Campaign in Torbay, I am campaigning hard to protect those services and get investment. Like others, I believe that there is a lack of acknowledgment of our frail elderly population in Devon, where the finances are not following that particular challenge.”
“It is poignant that we are having the Sir David Amess debate today, particularly in the light of the shocking murder of Ann Widdecombe only a week ago. Ann was a Devon resident, and although I may not have seen eye to eye with her politically, she definitely brought authenticity into politics in spades.”
“This could be worse for Torbay unitary authority. However, it is a catastrophic carve-up for Devon, led by Exeter and Plymouth—both Labour councils—and driven forward by a Labour Minister, which will result in a rural rump in Devon. Can the Minister please advise us on his belief as to the financial viability of this rural rump of Devon?”
“Torbay hospital is the third oldest estate that celebrates being part of the NHS. In heatwave conditions, the tower block is like an oven and that has a massive impact on patients, staff and even equipment.”
“Torbay council is the most deprived local authority in the south-west of England. I would welcome the Minister’s assurances that rearranging the deckchairs with this local reorganisation will not detract from regeneration, which is a core driver for that local authority. The new Prime Minister is set to move No.”
The complete record
Every one of 600 lines we hold for Steve Darling, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 10 of 12.
“The amendment is about ensuring transparency around the Bill. I have already explored transparency, and other hon. Members have talked about reasonableness. The Bill gives the Minister the ability to appoint their own independent person. Although I am sure that those in power for the foreseeable future are very reasonable individuals who will genuinely appoint independent persons, we can read in our newspapers about people not very far away who are effectively appointing yes-people around them, so I fear that we need to future-proof the Bill to ensure that the people appointed are genuinely independent. Constitutions elsewhere in the world have checks and balances heavily built into governance.”
“I would also welcome a deeper explanation of what reasonable grounds for suspecting fraud will be. Putting a bit more colour on the palette would be extremely helpful.”
“We Liberal Democrats called for that, but we are gravely concerned that the Government are bashing ahead with this legislation without being able to take into account any lessons that could be learned from the carer’s allowance debacle. Although the vast majority of the challenges that we face are error and fraud, my and my colleagues’ concern is that the Government need to fix the Department for Work and Pensions, which is effectively broken. I could wax about that for England, but I will not. When the machine is not fit for purpose, we need to fix it before adding more bells and whistles; simply adding to a broken machine will not fix it. I would welcome some explanation of why we are dashing ahead when we do not have the findings from the carer’s allowance overpayments review.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Sir Jeremy. Liberal Democrats believe, as do all members of the Committee, that fraud is bad. It clearly impacts on the ability of the state to support people and our communities. It is important to put that on the table. I will give a small overview as we start debate on part 2 of the Bill, but as a liberal, the idea of mass surveillance within this part of the Bill causes me grave concern on a number of levels. This will be unpacked over the next few sessions. I would welcome the Minister commenting on why this piece of legislation is being rushed. The rush poses a danger to our communities. The fact that the Government commissioned a review into the carer’s allowance overpayments is to be welcomed.”
“The Minister will not be surprised that I return to the fact that the Bill has been rushed. I respectfully remind him that we are a very refreshed House of Commons. This is fresh information for the vast majority of Members. Although Parliament may have a corporate memory, this Bill has moved at great pace since First Reading and we remain very concerned that this may result in errors. The Minister has assured us that the code of conduct will be available in due course, but can he identify by what date or by when in the legislative programme? That would give us some comfort. Although positive words have been said about the code of conduct, it drives the culture of an organisation, and culture is extremely important. I look forward to some words of reassurance from the Minister.”
“I am sure that many colleagues will be alive to the fact the proposals before us mean that one in eight will be affected by these quite significant powers of mass surveillance. Will the hon. Lady advise us on how many more people will be affected by including housing benefit in the proposals?”
“I also draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that pension credit is an area where there are significantly lower levels of fraud. There are already low levels of fraud generally throughout the benefits system, but the pension credit levels are extremely small.”
“Some of the evidence I heard when I consulted people from disability groups is that people with mental health issues may be fearful. They may think, “Because the Government Minister is looking in my bank account, I can’t afford the nice cheesecake from Waitrose. I can only shop in discounted supermarkets because the Minister is going to be watching what I am doing.” Turning to our amendments, we have grave concerns that the approach could be the thin end of the Government wedge. We have therefore tabled amendment 29 to put a clear restriction on the proposals, ensuring that what is before us is set in stone rather than allowing for mission creep. On amendment 30, we know from the debacle around the winter fuel allowance that getting pensioners to step up to the mark and claim pension credit has been a real challenge.”
“I reflect to the hon. Member for South West Devon that accusing somebody of being short-sighted when they have a guide dog with them is a bit of a juxtaposition, but it was taken well. The Liberal Democrats and I have grave concerns about this Orwellian approach to mass surveillance, and that the proposals are overcooked. I go back to my concerns that the DWP is, sadly, not fit for purpose. One has to look only at the significant delays throughout the system and the challenges within that Department, and yet we are looking at granting it massive, extremely significant powers. The DWP already has the ability to intervene where it suspects fraud, and we welcome that where there is reasonable suspicion, but to actually subject people to this approach is outrageous.”
“We need to make sure that there is a level of proportionality. On pension credit, proportionality suggests to me that pensioners are often extremely private people, and they will fear that the Minister will be looking through their shopping bills. Although there may be reassurances, this is still the presentation of what parts of our society may see as a Big Brother state. We have concerns about the impact, and by excluding pension credit specifically through amendment 30, we would serve some of the most vulnerable people in our society in the best way we can.”
“I referred to the proposals as Orwellian, and my concern goes back to “Animal Farm” where the notice was amended to read: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”. We have this perverse situation with the legislation where for some sections of society it is appropriate for the Government to use AI to go through their bank accounts, and for other sections of society it is not appropriate to use AI to go through people’s bank accounts. How does that lead to a society that is cogent and speaks together? Or is this just sowing division around our communities?”
“In the oral evidence, Professor Levi highlighted some powers regarding asset freezing that the police have had since 2017. I would welcome the Minister’s reflections on whether these powers could have a significant impact in this area of the law—in particular, whether they would apply to international organisations, and the impact on individuals. I think that would be helpful to the Committee.”
“I really want to hear from the Minister how the DWP is going to support people and be alive to the risk. It is about making sure that there is a culture of knowledge of the issue among the investigators. Although it is essential that we get the money from fraud in, we do not want collateral damage on people who have been abused.”
“I rise to speak about clause 20 in particular. Liberal Democrats are heartened by clause 18, which clearly says that if there is another account the money could be drawn from, that will be utilised. However, we are particularly concerned about coercive and controlling relationships. In my 30 years serving the people of Torbay as a councillor, I found on a number of occasions that people who are happy to conduct fraud against other parties, whether the state or other organisations, are often very happy to financially abuse their partners as well. That leaves their partners in a very vulnerable situation. I found that often the individuals affected are very trusting people who have vulnerabilities elsewhere in their lives, which would be recognised by the Department for Work and Pensions if it were supporting them.”
“Also, as alluded to earlier in the debate, it would be helpful to have some assurance on the banks and the impact on them.”
“I ask the Minister to reflect on how speedily the Bill is going through Parliament. As we heard from the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, financial institutions are not clear about the impact on or the cost to them. When we legislate in haste, challenges will often come out of the woodwork in the longer term. In this particular area, again, the issue is about the safeguards. We assume that we are dealing with reasonable people, but we do not have to look far in international news to see what can go wrong when unreasonable people gain power. Where are the safeguards? When holding a Minister to account, it is often assumed that the Minister will be a reasonable person. Sadly, however, in the future the Minister may not be a reasonable person, so where are the safeguards for individuals?”
“The Liberal Democrats support this Conservative amendment. I will not go over the arguments again, as they have been well put. Some clauses talk about safeguards. It is about the culture of the organisation, making sure that individuals have professional curiosity and how to foster that within the organisation. Professional curiosity can bear significant fruit for a number of Government organisations when they conduct activities, but broadly we are supportive.”
“I echo many of the concerns raised by the shadow Minister. There are serious issues with giving a blank cheque to banks to undertake certain activities. How are they planning to calculate what their cost is? Is it purely the direct cost of that activity, or are they able to ladle into that some of their central costs? Clearly, if they did not exist as a bank, they would not be able to undertake these activities. There is uncertainty, and we wish to see fairness and transparency. Some feedback from the Minister on this matter would be extremely welcome, because although it is fair that people pay for the activity to be undertaken by banks, so that the burden does not fall on either the banks or the taxpayer, it is important that it is equitable. I look forward to the Minister’s response.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Sir Desmond. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire has ably laid out a number of concerns, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I know from my time serving my community in Torbay that when people are in a tough place, very often an exceptional circumstance needs to be taken into account. I would welcome the Minister’s reflections on how exceptional circumstances can be taken into account when the tribunal comes into play.”
“I am pleased that the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire has been reading my notes—I wish to speak about future-proofing, too. The current incumbent of the White House is a clear fan of cryptocurrency, so we are looking at that element of our financial world potentially growing very much faster and dominating the financial workplace. I would welcome the Minister’s reflections on how that can be future-proofed against, because we could well see a sea change over the next 12 months in the level of cryptocurrency used in the world. It is a particular favourite of fraudsters, so being alive to that and making sure we are able to take account of that and to get the money back to our taxpayers would be really welcome.”
“I have already written to the Minister on this issue, but is it possible that, after conversations with him, we could pre-spend rather than have even more months of delays in implementing the changes we all desperately want for our local communities?”
“Torbay is the premier resort in the United Kingdom, but behind our palm trees and Victorian villas is the most deprived council in the west of England, so it is a truly welcome that Torbay is one of these 75 neighbourhoods. Sadly, we have had a pregnant pause while the new Government walked through the wreckage of the finances left by the previous Conservative Government, but it is very welcome that this money is coming to bear. It is also really heartening that it will be over a number of years, so we can have confidence about how to support our communities. However, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Josh Babarinde) are particularly concerned about the resulting pregnant pause, because we have oven-ready opportunities for our communities.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Lewell-Buck. I am pleased that you already see that we will become the official Opposition by the next general election, as long as the right hon. Member for North West Essex (Mrs Badenoch) continues. The Liberal Democrats would like to state clearly that fraud is wrong and, as the Minister rightly stated, it robs the state of the ability to support people and drive the change in our communities that we all thirst for. Our concern is that this legislation is being rushed through Parliament at breakneck speed, and rushed legislation can result in dangerous consequences for those who get caught up in it eventually. I share this concern with the Minister: we legislate at haste and repent at leisure when things go wrong.”
“Perhaps the word that the shadow Minister used most was “reasonableness”. In our strange political world in recent months, the question of what is reasonable in our society has changed significantly following the change of President in the United States. What normal society would expect is “reasonable” of an elected official, both here and in America, gives me, as a Liberal Democrat, cause for concern in relation to how we can make sure that a Bill like this, which gives very significant powers to the state, sets safeguards in stone to protect our communities. We will come to that later, but I would welcome reassurance from the Minister. Although I am sure that we are all reasonable people in this room, others who are unreasonable might take power at a later stage of our lives. With this legislation, how can we put safeguards in place?”
“I concur about the safeguarding of individuals. While there may be an independent reviewer or chair, the challenge, for me, is who appoints them. If it ends up being the Minister who appoints the chair, how independent will they be? Given what we are seeing elsewhere in the world, how do we ensure that we build a structure of independence into the Bill that we may not previously have thought was needed? I am somewhat supportive of the proposals from colleagues, but equally, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say on the challenge.”
“I can add very little to what the shadow Minister said. Again, I am broadly sympathetic on the need to have these safeguards in the legislation, and on not knowing what the practice notes are. We are very much in the dark, so that does give us cause for concern.”
“The Minister referred to a review process; it would be really helpful if the Committee could be aware of how long that process is likely to take.”
“It straddled the Ukraine war, which meant that we saw a massive boost in the cost to redevelop Paignton town centre, and now that particular location is just a car park. We have that uncertainty, and if we want to drive that imagination for our communities, we need certainty, so please can we look at streamlining those compulsory purchase orders? Finally, colleagues have mentioned the massive impact of the national insurance contribution hikes. Although the policy is still slightly over the horizon, its cold hand is sending a chill through the heart of our town centres. The Conservatives may have almost nailed down the coffin lid on our town centres, but I fear that the Labour party will actually put in the last nail with NICs.”
“Sadly, people sleeping rough make others feel unsafe, and therefore unwilling to go into our town centres. We need more funding to support people, but we also need the stick of more bobbies on the beat—more uniformed officers who can be seen supporting our communities. I will turn to the main meat here. We have seen the steady decline of our town centres over decades. Out-of-town and now online shopping have had a devastating effect on our town centres. We need to ensure that local authorities have the ability to place-shape, whether that is having influence over stopping immediate transfer from retail to residential, or whether it is enhancing and speeding up the abilities of compulsory purchase orders. I am only too alive to one case in my constituency of Torbay.”
“I will not take up all that time because I know that time is pressing. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton West (Matt Vickers) on obtaining this extremely important debate. The issue has been well debated so far. I will focus on antisocial behaviour and its impact, with communities feeling unsafe to go out into our town centres. I go back to the cuts, probably about 14 years ago, to the Supporting People budget. Effectively, 90% of that budget was binned by the Conservative council at that time. It was supporting people with drug and alcohol issues, as well as many other vulnerable people who needed support. At the last count in Torbay, 40 people were sleeping rough across the bay, which is absolutely shocking. The number has more than doubled.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy. I concur with what the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan, my colleague to my right—in more ways than one—shared just now.”
“Health authorities in Devon are set to trial the relocation of a vital coronary service from Torbay to Exeter, which is 24 miles away. Will the Minister meet me and fellow south Devon MPs who have grave concerns about the impact on patient safety?”
“Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), for sponsoring that Bill, which gave these proposals legs in the Chamber. I am delighted that they are coming to fruition today. In my Torbay constituency, developing an attachment between parents and children is often a challenge, particularly for those who face serious difficulties in their lives. Many prematurely born youngsters are from more deprived backgrounds—there is twice the chance of that. We Liberal Democrats truly welcome the proposals, because they will drive strong attachment between parents and their babies, and that can only bear fruit for communities across the United Kingdom.”
“Please accept my sincere apologies for being late, Madam Deputy Speaker. Things moved on at pace this afternoon. I will take what you said seriously into account. The Liberal Democrats had such proposals in our manifesto, so we welcome the regulations. Some 34,000 people—equivalent to the population of Yate—are set to benefit from the regulations in the first year after they come into force. I note that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith), said that the Conservatives promised to deliver such proposals, but—a bit like their hospitals programme—they failed to do so. One needs to bear that in mind. I pay tribute to Stuart McDonald, a former MP whose private Member’s Bill—the Neonatal Care (Leave and Pay) Bill—addressed this issue. I also pay tribute to my hon.”
“The hon. Gentleman was talking about incentivising people into work. In my surgeries in Torbay, I find that an awful lot of people are off sick with hip problems or mental health challenges, and the challenge people have in getting back into work is the broken health system that was left by the previous Conservative Government. I hope the new Government will drive harder on fixing the system, because many people on benefits are keen to get back into work; they are just unfit for work.”
“We need to make sure this is addressed at pace to support people, because 136,000 people—the equivalent of the population of West Bromwich—are affected, owing £250 million. They fell foul of a system where people only need to earn £1 more a week and they do not then owe £52, they owe £4,200—tapers need to be implemented. One of the real challenges we face is that the DWP service is, sadly, broken. It is not fit for purpose and needs redesigning. I have nothing but utter respect for the Secretary of State on this issue, and instead of driving new agendas we need to lift the bonnet and redesign the system, get it for purpose and, most importantly, co-design it with people who are disabled or benefit users, so that it can actually support them.”
“It is therefore disappointing that the local housing allowance has not been enhanced in this round. Almost 1 million children across the United Kingdom will be living in households that have this gap between their benefits and the cost of their accommodation and they will be driven even further into poverty. On universal credit, colleagues have already mentioned the recent Joseph Rowntree Foundation report which highlighted that couples face a £55 a week gap between covering the basics and what they actually receive. That is a little over £2,800 a year, so people are being driven even deeper into poverty just around the basics on their universal credit offer. Finally, on the carer’s allowance scandal, while we Liberal Democrats welcome the Government’s engagement and the review that is taking place, unanswered questions remain.”
“On pensions, I would also like to highlight the housing issues. I served my community for 30 years as a councillor, and I am therefore very alive to some of the challenges people face. Housing is a massive issue, and it is disturbing that, when reflecting on pensions, the cost of housing is rarely taken into account. In 1979, 35% of our housing stock was social rented housing. That figure is now down to 17% across the United Kingdom, and in my constituency of Torbay it is as low as 7%. This means that people, whether pensioners or those on other benefits, in constituencies such as mine where there is a lack of social rented housing are particularly hard-hit by that lack of support; they will have to take money away from putting food on the table in order to pay the rent.”
“It was really pleasing that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions welcomed the report, acknowledged it and apologised, but, sadly, she did not actually action the report. That gives me great displeasure, as well as many other people across the United Kingdom. In evidence to the Work and Pensions Committee, the ombudsman suggested that there is usually a bit of a conversation between the ombudsman and the Government about what an acceptable system or approach to compensation would be. Sadly, however, that never happened as far as the WASPI women are concerned, which is disturbing, and I want to understand why. Why was there the breakdown in communication between the ombudsman and the previous Conservative Government? I am looking to explore that with the ombudsman in another way.”
“Two million pensioners remain in poverty, and 1 million are on the edge of poverty, and one would have hoped that a Labour Government wanting to cut the number in half and promoting social justice would have driven such an agenda harder in their first seven months in power. The cut to the winter fuel allowance has exacerbated this situation. The hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger) highlighted the backlogs and rightly said that they are totally unacceptable. The reality is that we are seeing pensioner poverty. Again, we know that women are more likely to be victims of poverty, yet the WASPI women have in effect been victims of a decision of this Government.”
“I would like to acknowledge the very sobering and comprehensive speech given by the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). This is disturbing, and one would hope that our DWP, and our Government as a whole, would take a trauma-informed approach to dealing with our communities, as I believe that would stand us in good stead. I broadly welcome the upratings in the proposals before us for both benefits and pensions, but I will focus first on pensions. Sadly, the Labour Government inherited a system under which, for the last 10 years, we have seen an increase in pensioner poverty.”
“My hon. Friend is right to highlight that. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Josh Babarinde) and I are awaiting a meeting with the Minister to explore that very issue and the RBL’s campaign. To conclude, I lived through a world of broken children’s services in Torbay, but we rolled our sleeves up, sorted it out and moved from failing to good within two years by getting the right people in place, making sure systems were sorted out and driving culture change. We need that co-design with people who use the system so we can get the DWP sorted as well.”
“The fact that the thresholds at which people start to pay national insurance are going down from £9,200 to £5,000 means that businesses in my constituency, such as Paignton pier, Paignton zoo and Splashdown, all have massive increases in seasonal worker costs, through both the threshold hitting harder and the increases in national insurance costs. When I speak to businesses such as Splashdown in Paignton, they tell me that it means they will probably operate for a shorter time and that they may look at reducing the number of staff they take on. Sadly, the national insurance increase is a jobs tax on our tourism industry, as well as on the rest of our economy. I am only too well aware that the cost to hospitality is £1 billion. That is extremely disturbing. Again, people will not be taken on due to those cost pressures.”
“The Liberal Democrats welcome the Minister’s suggestion that today’s proposals are yoked to the national insurance increases going through the other place. Since the general election, we have had doom and gloom from the Labour party until very recently. The uncertainty around the Budget and the national insurance increases that are yet to hit has only put the cold hand around the economic growth that we need to see pumping harder in our economy. In my own part of the world in the west country, it is having a massive impact on the tourism industry.”
“The business operates within very tight margins, and it will have to reduce services or limit its offer to our communities in South Devon and Torbay. Those reductions will inevitably have an impact on the social care offer. Finally, let me say something about the voluntary sector. Torbay Communities gives outstanding service to the people of South Devon and Torbay, but the national insurance increases will confront it with considerable challenges. It will have to think about whether to reduce its staff and stop supporting some of the most vulnerable people in the area—people who are in need. With due respect to the Minister, I ask the Government to reflect on these increases and to see how they can alleviate them, particularly in the hospitality, social care and voluntary sectors.”
“I am delighted with my hon. Friend’s intervention, because the Liberal Democrats represent the full length of the United Kingdom from Shetland to the Isles of Scilly, and it is important that we hear about that impact from a breadth of colleagues. The Liberal Democrats represent some of the best places to go on holiday across the UK. There is a significant high-tech industry in Torbay. Again, businesses in that manufacturing industry tells me that their owners abroad may ask them to offshore some of their manufacturing to places such as Taiwan, where taxes on employment are significantly lower. That is another significant impact of the rise in national insurance contributions. Bay Care is an outstanding social care business, but Kat Hall, one of its senior managers, tells me that this measure will have a significant impact.”
“Children in poverty in Torbay make up 23% of our population but 100% of our future. Barnardo’s recently highlighted that the most powerful tool in the Government’s toolbox to tackle child poverty is ending the two-child cap. Only last week, the annual poverty report by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation came to the same conclusion. When will the Minister come to that same conclusion and end the two-child cap?”
“I was pleased to hear that Labour councillors on Hull city council have voted to condemn the Government’s shameful decision not to compensate WASPI women. Has that given the Minister pause for thought?”
“I reflect on the lack of investment in our police services, which means that the number of sworn officers has massively reduced. Those are serious issues that affect us following the lack of investment under the previous Government. The Conservative Government were asleep at the wheel during the covid pandemic, as the Secretary of State alluded to in clear terms. Businesspeople in Torbay told me that they felt Rishi Sunak was—”
“I thank the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) for laying out very concisely some of the challenges in ensuring that the Bill does the right thing without going too far and breaking the things that people want fixed. Clearly, defrauding the benefits system is wrong. One need only reflect on the level of disinvestment in many of our public services by the previous Government to note how that can bleed the system dry. I reflect on my own Torbay constituency, where the hospital tower block has scaffolding around it not because it is under repair, but to prevent bits of concrete from falling and killing people. I reflect on the lack of investment in our schools; the challenges with reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete mean that the necessary capital programme will not happen for the next six years.”