Steve Darling
MP for Torbay · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“Many people may be planning to visit the English riviera this summer, and when they do they may venture on to our coasts. I hope that the Minister will ensure that common sense prevails in appropriately recompensing our coastguards, who put themselves in danger’s way to support people in tragic circumstances.”
“Together with the Heart Campaign in Torbay, I am campaigning hard to protect those services and get investment. Like others, I believe that there is a lack of acknowledgment of our frail elderly population in Devon, where the finances are not following that particular challenge.”
“It is poignant that we are having the Sir David Amess debate today, particularly in the light of the shocking murder of Ann Widdecombe only a week ago. Ann was a Devon resident, and although I may not have seen eye to eye with her politically, she definitely brought authenticity into politics in spades.”
“This could be worse for Torbay unitary authority. However, it is a catastrophic carve-up for Devon, led by Exeter and Plymouth—both Labour councils—and driven forward by a Labour Minister, which will result in a rural rump in Devon. Can the Minister please advise us on his belief as to the financial viability of this rural rump of Devon?”
“Torbay hospital is the third oldest estate that celebrates being part of the NHS. In heatwave conditions, the tower block is like an oven and that has a massive impact on patients, staff and even equipment.”
“Torbay council is the most deprived local authority in the south-west of England. I would welcome the Minister’s assurances that rearranging the deckchairs with this local reorganisation will not detract from regeneration, which is a core driver for that local authority. The new Prime Minister is set to move No.”
The complete record
Every one of 600 lines we hold for Steve Darling, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 9 of 12.
“Does the hon. Member agree that we desperately need a proper, fully thought out fishing strategy to support this vital industry in our local communities?”
“While we have those lovely blue flag beaches, from time to time—particularly with climate change and the propensity towards heavier water use in the summer—our sewage system gets overwhelmed. It is a great sadness that locals have to look on the Surfers Against Sewage app to determine when it is safe to swim in our seas. We also face wicked issues and challenges in our NHS, including our crumbling hospital.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Steff Aquarone) on securing this important debate. We desperately need a Minister for coastal communities, as has been highlighted in some outstanding speeches this afternoon. The fact that my constituency of Torbay is the premier resort for the United Kingdom is of great pleasure to me—we have six blue flag beaches across the bay. However, once upon a time at the turn of the 20th century, Torquay was the wealthiest town in the country. Sadly, Torbay is now one of its most deprived communities, and is the most deprived community in the west of England. One wicked issue that faces us is pollution in our seas.”
“My hon. Friend is spot on. Whether we are in North Norfolk, North Devon or Torbay, we face challenges with our NHS, and we also face a lack of affordable housing. We have seen that challenge put on steroids by the pandemic, during which we saw house prices and rents rise, with people fleeing from metropolitan areas to live in coastal communities. Let us ensure, with the appointment of a dedicated coastal communities Minister, that coastal communities are not left on the edge, geographically or economically.”
“Rowcroft hospice in my constituency is impacted greatly by the Bill, as is Bay Care, an excellent social care provider. Both those organisations are having to make challenging and difficult decisions about how many people they can employ and how they can support people in their communities. Does my hon. Friend share my fear that this will result in the shunting of costs on to our core NHS services?”
“The Work and Pensions Committee, of which I am a member, received evidence from a medic who said that when people get to the age of about 65 or 70, they find that their bodies begin to become less resistant to cold weather, and they have a much greater need for heating. That is why the winter fuel payment was and continues to be the right decision. In fact, I hope that the Labour party will listen to Unite, which has undertaken surveys highlighting the fact that two thirds of pensioners are feeling the cold more but choosing not to put the heating on because of their fears about bills.”
“Yesterday the books were being balanced on the backs of people with disabilities throughout the United Kingdom. The scrapping of the winter fuel allowance means 100,000 more pensioners in relative poverty. It has been estimated that approximately 800,000 pensioners who could benefit from pension credit have sadly not taken advantage of it. Conservative colleagues to my right have highlighted that there continues to be significant delays, and they are right to say so. When I have asked questions about that, I have been told that there are 90,000 claims in the queue, resulting in pensioners going through the winter unsure about whether it is safe to put on their heating.”
“I am sure the Minister almost opposite me felt that it was a brave decision by the Conservatives on my right—in fact, from the noises off during the speech of their spokeslady, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), it may even have been a bit quackers—to choose this topic for a debate. As the Minister highlighted, pensioner poverty increased under the watch of the last Conservative Government. The Tories left the economy in an absolute state. They completely crashed it, leaving the new Labour Government a massive mess to deal with. However— [ Interruption. ] Don’t worry; I am coming to some Labour-bashing now. We Liberal Democrats are deeply disappointed about Chancellor’s botched autumn Budget, however, when she balanced the books on the backs of pensioners.”
“My hon. Friend is spot on. In fact, we Liberal Democrats feel that the winter fuel allowance must be reintroduced across the board. The Liberal Democrats want the introduction of a social tariff that supports pensioners in poverty and pensioners on benefits. We also want to ensure that the whole United Kingdom has a home insulation scheme that gets people warmer in their homes, tackles climate change and gives employment across the country for those who need it. We call upon Members to back the motion and ensure that winter fuel payments go back to pensioners, where they should be.”
“Whether it is Scope or the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, many of those good organisations highlight to policy developers that the levels of benefits are really tough and the levels of destitution in our communities are higher than they have been for many years. Therefore, I would welcome some thoughts from the Minister about this proposal, because sadly, recovery will often drive people into destitution and, as highlighted by the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion, into severe ill health.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Western. I support the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion. On several occasions over recent weeks, Ministers have gone on the record to describe the DWP and the benefits system as a “broken” system. It is extremely helpful that the hon. Member highlighted the impact that that can have on people who often have chaotic lives and are on the edge. I have served the people of Torbay in elected office for 30 years. Over that time, I am saddened that, particularly with the recent cost of living crisis, the levels of destitution have become worse, as I hear from people who provide food banks and other support for the people in need in Torbay.”
“This legislation needs to stand the test of time, so baking in these safeguards would be a positive way forward. I hope that the Minister will welcome that. I look forward to his comments.”
“New clause 12 is about financial exclusion, as the hon. Member for South West Devon said. The Liberal Democrats’ concern is that, as this morning goes on, a number of safeguards are looking to be—for want of a better phrase—baked into the system by legislation, yet according to the Minister the only thing baked into the system is the involvement of human beings. That causes me, and I am sure other colleagues, concerns. If an annual review were to take place of the Bill’s impact on people facing financial exclusion, conducted by the independent person appointed with the Minister publishing and sharing that with Parliament, we could ensure a level of transparency. While many of us would acknowledge that the Ministers in place at the moment are well-meaning individuals, who knows where we will be in 10 years’ time?”
“I encourage colleagues to support these proposals about the carer’s allowance. Carers are the backbone of many households across the United Kingdom, and I hope the Minister will support the amendment.”
“(4) Where a liability order has been made against a person (“the liable person”), the Secretary of State may use the procedure in Schedule 12 to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (taking control of goods) to recover the amount in respect of which the order was made, to the extent that it remains unpaid.”— (Rebecca Smith.) Brought up, and read the First time.”
“(3) The Secretary of State may make regulations in relation to England and Wales— (a) prescribing the procedure to be followed in dealing with an application by the Secretary of State for a liability order; (b) prescribing the form and contents of a liability order; and (c) providing that where a magistrates’ court has made a liability order, the person against whom it is made shall, during such time as the amount in respect of which the order was made remains wholly or partly unpaid, be under a duty to supply relevant information to the Secretary of State.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 13 Liability orders “(1) Where— (a) a person has been found guilty of an offence under section 1 or section 11 of the Fraud Act 2006, or the offence at common law of conspiracy to defraud, (b) that offence relates to fraud committed against a public authority, and (c) the person has not paid the required penalties or not made the required repayments, the Secretary of State may apply to a magistrates’ court or, in Scotland, to the sheriff, for an order (“a liability order”) against the liable person. (2) Where the Secretary of State applies for a liability order, the magistrates’ court or (as the case may be) sheriff shall make the order if satisfied that the payments in question have become payable by the liable person and have not been paid.”
“I hope the Government will take this seriously and support the new clause, so we would like to press it to a vote in due course.”
“I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. I start by acknowledging the hard work of Surviving Economic Abuse in this policy area. I thank that charity for its briefing, which I am sure it has shared with all Committee members. The charity and the Liberal Democrats are keen to make sure that domestic abuse, particularly where it plays out in relation to joint accounts, is on the face of the Bill, so that it is taken very seriously. I can almost hear the Minister’s voice saying that DWP officers are well trained to deal with vulnerable claimants, but it is extremely important to put domestic abuse on the face of the Bill. Domestic abuse is a very wicked issue in my Torbay constituency, and I am sad to say that Torbay is not alone in it being a serious challenge in people’s households.”
“I fear that this is just tinkering around the edges when we need real culture change within the DWP and investment in our NHS. That is absolutely essential.”
“I thank the Secretary of State for sharing her statement in advance—that was extremely welcome. The Liberal Democrats want to see more people in work, including those with disabilities. Sadly, the significant blocker to those people getting into work is the appalling state of the health and social care system left behind by the Tories—to my mind, in more ways than one. We desperately need the new Labour Government to drive forward with reforms to invest in and improve our health service. The devil is in the detail of these proposals. I fear what we will find as we turn over rocks over the next few days, particularly for the most vulnerable. The Secretary of State has described the system as broken, so how will she drive significant change through the measures?”
“That could take six months to come to fruition, or it could take 14 months, but why drag this out further? Let us not have the indignity of the Government being dragged kicking and screaming to the right decision. Do the right thing now, Minister.”
“People are currently queuing up to say that the DWP is broken and not fit for purpose, and the report highlights that that is the case. Quangos seem to be somewhat out of fashion with the Government at the moment, so is the ombudsman one that the Government will consider abolishing? If they are choosing to ignore it this easily, what is the point of it? I hope that the Minister can provide some reassurances on that. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions stood up in the Chamber, accepted that there was maladministration and apologised, but said she will not give compensation. That is bizarre in the extreme. We need to build trust with our communities again. I am very much alive to the fact that, only this afternoon, WASPI women have lodged paperwork in the High Court for a judicial review on this very issue.”
“That broken trust needs to be rebuilt, and the issue before us today is potentially part of that rebuilding. Throughout the debate colleagues have highlighted many heartbreaking stories from around the United Kingdom, and the time has flown by. In particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (John Milne) highlighted how the Secretary of State picked on an issue that held no water at all. I hope the Minister will return to that when he reflects on the debate. Pam in my constituency believed that she was set to retire at a certain age. She spent time supporting a husband who was dying from terminal cancer and a mother who was elderly and frail. She has been let down—as many women have throughout the United Kingdom. Let me now reflect on the ombudsman’s report.”
“Across the United Kingdom there are 3.7 million WASPI women—that is over half a million people more than the population of Wales. An enormous amount of people could be benefiting from compensation that they so richly deserve. I was reflecting on the fact that many of us in the Chamber are new MPs. When I got elected—I am sure a number of Members have also reflected on this—the most important thing we needed to achieve was to rebuild trust between the public and politicians. We see elsewhere, in western Europe and North America, what happens when trust is broken and extremists take power, so we must rebuild trust. We saw what happened under the previous Government, when many of us stayed at home and did the right thing while others partied at No. 10.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South Cotswolds (Dr Savage) and her stellar speech to launch the debate. This is the first debate I have spoken in that has been triggered by a petition. The fact is that the petition has been driven forward swiftly by the force of nature that is the WASPI women. One can only acknowledge what excellent campaigners they have been over many years. Their patience has been worn thin. As colleagues have alluded to, sadly a WASPI woman dies every 13 minutes. That means that during this three-hour debate some 14 WASPI women will have sadly died without receiving the compensation they so richly deserve. In my Torbay constituency, there are 6,930 WASPI women who deserve the support that the Government could give them.”
“There continue to be unacceptable delays in processing Access to Work applications, both for my constituents in Torbay and across the country. This leads to fears among disabled people that job offers will be withdrawn by their would-be employers. What reassurance can the Minister give the Chamber that the Government have plans afoot to tackle that backlog?”
“Will the Secretary of State confirm that those people in receipt of disability benefits who profoundly cannot work will not face a cut in their benefits?”
“Finally, I would be grateful if the Minister could expand on how the code of practice will take account of people with learning disabilities, covering both those who are able to operate the accounts themselves and those who may need a proxy to manage the account.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I thank the Minister for his introduction to the clause and for his assurance that there will be a consultation; it would be helpful if he could explain the likely consultees. Also—Opposition Members have repeatedly raised this question—what are the key principles within that consultation and what areas is he keen to address with the code of practice? The Minister has alluded to that already, but a bit more flesh on the bones would be extremely helpful. Often, people who commit fraud use other peoples’ accounts and abuse them, and are often financial abusers. Will the Minister flesh out how the code of practice will take that into account?”
“The Minister alluded to proportionality and not wanting to criminalise people in undertaking an administrative charge. As my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham alluded to, it would be helpful if the Minister unpacked a little more for the Committee where that proportionality kicks in.”
“I beg to move amendment 37, in clause 75, page 41, line 25, at end insert— “(1A) Prior to appointing an independent person, the Minister must consult the relevant committee of the House of Commons. (1B) For the purposes of subsection (1A), ‘the relevant committee’ means a committee determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons.” This amendment would ensure further oversight into the appointment of the “Independent person”.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Western. We have touched previously on having an independent overview of the activities that will take place under the Bill, and this is another opportunity to have the checks and balances I have alluded to on a number of occasions. Of course, all Members in the room are reasonable people, but we see in world politics what happens when people are unreasonable. Given that the United Kingdom’s constitution is unwritten, beginning to build those checks and balances into legislation is important. Amendment 37 would hardwire them into the Bill, and I ask that the Minister give it serious consideration. I have heard hints that it may be taken into account in one way or the other when the Bill goes to the other place, but I would welcome some reassurance, if possible, that that is the case.”
“I am pleased to have had the debate. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 75 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 76 Entry, search and seizure in England and Wales”
“The power to seize items, down in the weeds of an investigation, is essential to ensuring that we hold the right people to account. However, I am alive to the fact that seized items are often kept for a long time. Our mobile phones often contain our whole lives. Not that long ago, a resident in Torbay who was accused of a criminal offence and was under investigation had his mobile phone seized by Devon and Cornwall police for a very long time—a matter of months. What assurance can the Minister give that when the power of seizure is used—particularly when it is used to seize a mobile phone—items will be returned in a timely manner? What timescale does he plan to set for civil servants to return such items?”
“I seek the Minister’s guidance as to how DWP officers, when they undertake these acts, will ensure that seize and sift will not be the standard modus operandi and that it is used only in appropriate cases. When will the Government publish a code of conduct? What guidance will be given? It might be tempting to undertake trawling operations for information rather than taking the spear-fishing approach that would garner the evidence more easily. I would welcome the Minister’s reassurance on that.”
“I just want some assurance on how it was decided that one month was long enough. For my sins, I served the people of Torbay in elected of office for 30 years before getting elected to Parliament. I am alive to the fact that some people have chaotic lives. I am only too aware of how sometimes people turn up to the citizens advice bureau with a couple of carrier bags full of unopened envelopes because due to their mental health challenges the only way they are able to deal with their world is by putting their head in the sand, sadly. I wanted an assurance on whether there was a level of flexibility. It appears from the clause that there is a drop-dead proposal here. What flexibility is proposed? I look forward to hearing the Minister speak about those people who are perhaps more vulnerable than the rest of us.”
“I hope that the Government will give serious thought to our amendment to make leave for carers a paid opportunity, because giving them that flexibility and that breathing space would unlock more people for our employment market. Our proposal to make caring a protected characteristic is extremely important. We have already heard about harassment and discrimination in connection with other parts of the Bill, but this would help immensely to support carers. Doubling the pay of those taking adoption leave is also important, as is support for people who take caring roles such as kinship care. I hope that the Ministers will take those family roles into account.”
“The Minister says that that is due to levels of consultation and so forth and should be welcomed, and that we are trimming our sails, but if that is the case, and if the Minister was in such listening mode in Committee, why did the Government accept no Opposition amendments whatsoever? I should welcome some reflections from the Minister when he winds up the debate. As a Liberal Democrat, and the Liberal Democrat spokesman for the Department for Work and Pensions, I can say that carers are at the front and centre of our world. What is effectively the population of Portsmouth—200,000 people a year, or 600 a day—walk away from the employment market to take up caring occupations and, in many instances, support family members. That has an £8 billion annual impact on our economy, which leaves us less productive.”
“Indeed, we have heard from many other people who have been consulted that the Bill’s destination and aspirations are correct and appropriate, but it is a question of how we get there and whether the Government have achieved the right balance between employers and employees. That is important, because the last thing we want the Bill to do is have a chilling effect on the economy. We are only too well aware that the national insurance contributions that are set to kick in next month are already having that negative impact, and we do not want this well-intended Bill to echo that further. There are 250 amendments before us at this late stage of the legislation.”
“The holy grail sought by all Governments, of whichever hue, is economic growth. I therefore think it important for us to look through the lens of economic growth, and to think about whether the Bill drives it. I recall from my time in Committee, where I spent many hours listening to the oratory of the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith), that we spoke a great deal about productivity and whether it would be driven by the Bill. I have spoken about the possible impact of the Bill to people in my community, including representatives of Enlighten HR and Alison Benney, a human resources consultant, for whom its destination was very welcome.”
“We Liberal Democrats would really welcome putting a three to nine-month probationary period on the face of the Bill, which would ensure that there is less chance of expensive tribunals for employers. We welcome the steps that the Government have taken in respect of statutory sick pay, but we need to ensure that the correct balance is struck between the burden on employers and positive outcomes for employees.”
“I have engaged with young women in Torbay who work in retail and the hospitality industry, particularly those from Torquay girls’ grammar school, and they find that harassment in the workplace is not a bit of banter, but repugnant in the extreme. They told me that they will go to a shift feeling sick to the stomach because they know a particular individual will be coming in that evening who will act inappropriately. Their managers should have a duty of care toward them, and I welcome that proposal in the Bill. I know that some of the amendments allude to non-disclosure agreements. I welcome the Minister’s kind words, but warm words do not get measures into legislation. I ask him to reflect on that, and I am sure that colleagues will speak about NDAs. The final area I need to cover is probationary periods.”
“As somebody who was adopted myself, I know only too well the importance of supportive love. I have been heavily involved with children’s services, and I know that the best care for children in need of loving homes is often not too far away from home. The more that children’s services can be less of a child-rescuing service and more of a child support service, the better, so I strongly endorse what my hon. Friend alludes to. An area that particularly exercised the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire in Committee was third-party harassment, and I strongly support the Government’s proposals in this Bill.”
“My fear is that this Bill is a little bit like Snow White’s apple: it may have looked extremely good on the outside, but it sent her to sleep. My fear is that this Bill is a little like that, because it may have a lot of promise on the outside, but it could be a sleeping potion for our economy.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. When I go and speak to primary school teachers, they say that they face a challenge where there is poor attachment between the parent and the child, which can have a significant developmental impact on young people. By giving greater powers through this Bill, we can drive stronger connections between those parts of the family unit. The reality is that we need to support small businesses and get the right balance between implementing the good stuff in this Bill and making sure that we are not punishing businesses. We need to make sure that we support the family, because, as I have said, the family is the core part of what our society is, and strengthening that will hopefully strengthen outcomes and strengthen our society.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. The Liberal Democrats broadly welcome the proposals in the clauses. Safeguarding people is an essential part of the Bill. I suspect we will go into that in greater depth as we embark on part 2.”
“Legislation that is rushed is often legislation that is dangerous, and I fear that that is where we are today. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire was very polite in putting his challenges to the Minister, but I would like to be a little more robust and say that I believe it is extremely unreasonable that we do not have the code before us. “The devil is in the detail” is a hackneyed phrase, but that is the fact of the matter. I say to the Minister that it would be extremely helpful if the code could be published before the legislation passes throughout Parliament, so that there is at least the opportunity to scrutinise it at a later date. I look forward to receiving a satisfactory response from her.”
“I beg to move amendment 31, in clause 64, page 34, line 23, at end insert— “(1A) Prior to appointing an independent person, the Minister must consult the relevant committee of the House of Commons. (1B) For the purposes of subsection (1A), ‘the relevant committee’ means a committee determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons.” This amendment would ensure Parliamentary oversight of the appointment of the “Independent person”.”
“The amendment, which proposes to delegate to the Speaker the decision about how the appropriate Committee of Parliament can be involved and consulted about the appointment of the independent individual, would be a good way of ensuring genuine independence and reasonableness. I hope that the Government seriously consider it; we will be pressing it to a vote.”