← LEADERSHIP TERMINAL

UK PARLIAMENT · SITTING

Steve Darling

MP for Torbay · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom

IN THEIR OWN WORDS

“Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mr Reynolds), said earlier, it is about growing the economy and unshackling ourselves by using what opportunities there are for us; not choosing to keep to those red lines is extremely important.”

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“As colleagues have already highlighted, the national insurance hike has also hit that industry. Even raising the level at which it kicks in would be helpful, particularly for those not in education, employment or training and young people by providing those opportunities for their first job in the hospitality industry.”

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“It is somewhat disturbing that there is only £190 million in the Budget to support our NHS. That would not even cover the rebuild of Torbay hospital, which is desperately needed. I hope that the Chancellor will continue to push hard on supporting our NHS.”

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“Torbay has one very sad accolade: it is the most deprived constituency with a Liberal Democrat MP. The cost of living crisis is therefore close to my heart. The fact that the Government have reduced fuel bills for some people is welcome, but it is a small step.”

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“Regional airports, such as Exeter airport, should be engines of economic growth. However, one often sees that airport services gravitate towards larger regional airports.”

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“On 7 September, the Secretary of State made a commitment that Devon MPs would be able to hold a meeting with the appropriate Minister to discuss local government reorganisation in Devon. Sadly, that meeting has not occurred to date. What timescale can the Minister give for such a meeting occurring?”

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The complete record

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  1. “I thank the Government for the steps taken to improve the Bill since it was debated in Committee. We as Liberal Democrats still have grave concerns about elements of the Bill, but it is in a much better place, and I thank all colleagues for working together collaboratively to drive for improvements. Clearly, fraud is wrong. Some people believe that fraud against large organisations such as supermarkets and the Government is a victimless crime, but if we do not have that money, because it has been fraudulently claimed, we have to apply larger taxes or choose not to spend money on things such as tackling climate change. It is therefore important that it is tackled, but we need to ensure that we have two words guiding us: proportionality and fairness.”

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  2. “While the Conservatives undermine those with mental health challenges, Devon partnership NHS trust is set for £21 million in cuts.”

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  3. “That culture change should involve us taking a trauma-informed approach, in the DWP, in our civil service and in our society, so that we can help people who can work into work. I would also like to reflect on the sorry state in which the Conservatives left our NHS after they starved it of cash and failed to invest in it for many years. It is a great pity that so many residents came to me in my first year as MP for Torbay to tell me that they were unable to have the operations they required, due to the Conservatives’ lack of investment over many years. They bled money out of the capital system to cover the costs of revenue. That is utterly shameful. Torbay hospital continues to crumble and, sadly, under the new Labour Government, we still see £250 million of in-year cuts to our NHS services.”

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  4. “It is important that the House, first of all, reflects on where the Conservatives left our community when they left power. We should reflect on the fact that the number of people who are economically inactive has gone up from 2.1 million in 2019 to 2.8 million. The fact that the bill for incapacity benefits has gone up from £34 billion to £51 billion is quite shocking. It is interesting that the Conservatives feel able to share their pearls of wisdom with the Chamber after leaving the world in such a sorry state. The Conservatives have climbed into the gutter to produce the proposals before us this evening; Disraeli and Peel must be turning in their graves. There are some real challenges. We need a true culture change, both in the benefit system and in the employment world, to help people get into work.”

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  5. “Some 4.5 million children—that is, every third child—live in poverty in the United Kingdom. In a visit that I made to Barton Hill academy in recent years, I asked the kids what they liked and did not like about Torbay. Their answers were not so much about things like litter; they were more about mum and dad not being able to make ends meet. I wonder how many of those youngsters were impacted by the two-child limit. In conclusion, there are elements of the Bill that we Liberal Democrats welcome, such as the ability that it will give us to manage the benefits bill, and a return to face-to-face assessments where possible, but others are totally derisible. We see the benefit system as being akin to our NHS: it should be there to support people in living their best life. We will therefore not support the motion.”

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  6. “That clearly means that 75% are out of work—those are shocking figures. The Liberal Democrats welcome the Charlie Mayfield report on how we can engage appropriately with the employment world, and on the positive lessons that can be learned from our nearby colleagues in Europe. I look forward to that coming forward, but perhaps the Government put the cart before the horse; the report should have been undertaken before the Employment Rights Bill was progressed. Finally, I come to a policy that Liberal Democrats have voted against on three occasions in this Parliament: the two-child limit and the benefits cap. What choice was there for the widow and her children? I am shocked that the Conservatives have such heartlessness that they are turning their backs on those individuals.”

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  7. “I thank the hon. Member. I reflect on the savage cuts made to public health spending. I would particularly mention the number of people who sleep rough on our streets. I campaigned on the issue as a young Liberal, more than 30 years ago. Sadly, those rough sleepers are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the challenges in our society. The cuts faced by the Devon partnership trust are a real challenge. I want to move on to Access to Work. Ministers have said on the record that it is one of the Government’s best kept secrets, but I fear that it has not performed as strongly as it could in driving people into work. In fact, I and others have real concerns that changes to the system could undermine it. Someone with a disability is 50% more likely to be out of work. A quarter of people who are registered blind are in work.”

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  8. “I congratulate the Minister on making real progress on this matter, after many years of delays. I recently met Jean Hill and her daughters. She has been campaigning on this issue for 30 years. Sadly, her husband died in 2004 at the age of 48; his brother died at 25; and a nephew died in more recent years. What assurance can the Minister give me—and Jean—that payments to deceased estates will be expedited as a matter of urgency, and what additional resources will be put in place to achieve that?”

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  9. “Friend the Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) rightly mentioned how it will impact the ability to offer languages, which will affect schools like Torquay boys’ grammar. I am sure that will be echoed across the country. The reality is that the £5 million in question is 0.004% of the education budget—a drop in the ocean. I say to the Minister: please, think again. The IB is about enriching our society and offering greater social mobility. Surely, that is what this Government should be all about.”

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  10. “That demonstrates how the IB drives positive change. I am aware from universities that the IB is very often—just as in my son’s case—seen as a good standard for gaining entrance to medical schools. I had a conversation with the head of Torquay boys’ grammar school, who said that the international baccalaureate offers those youngsters who develop later in sixth form greater opportunity to flourish more they would have in an A-level setting. I hope that the Minister reflects on how the international baccalaureate truly helps social mobility—something that I would hope a Labour Government would want to propagate rather than negate. Colleagues from across the Chamber have highlighted the short notice of the change to funding. My hon.”

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  11. “It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Didcot and Wantage (Olly Glover) on obtaining this debate. I myself applied for a debate on this subject, so I am pleased to be here today. Torquay boys’ grammar school in my constituency has discharged the pleasure of teaching the international baccalaureate for the last 16 years. It results in an influx into the school of young women, as well as youngsters from across the south-west and even Europe, who want to study the incredible, enhancing baccalaureate. My own son participated in the international baccalaureate. He volunteered in a care home and, a little over 10 years later, he is now a registrar at Torbay hospital and about to enter into a programme to become a consultant with an interest in care for the elderly.”

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  12. “My two sons both went to Torquay boys’ grammar school. One undertook the international baccalaureate. The other went down the A-level route and got three A*s. Universities do not like students taking more than three A-levels. We often joke with him that perhaps he should have stretched himself and undertaken the international baccalaureate. What would the Minister’s advice be?”

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  13. “The Minister has already acknowledged that it is olive harvest season in the west bank—a harvest that supports approximately 100,000 farming Palestinians—yet we have seen more than 150 attacks by settlers against those farmers. How are the Government holding the Israeli Government to account to stop those settlers acting with impunity?”

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  14. “In Torbay, in Devon, we have the third highest prevalence of strokes in the United Kingdom, and yet, within the last 12 months, we have seen cuts to support for the local stroke association. That has left people who are suffering from strokes feeling isolated and abandoned. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to see more investment at the grassroots to support sufferers of strokes?”

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  15. “I note that last year the new Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said that it is open to debate as to whether the two-child limit is harmful. I note also that this policy has been the most impactful in driving children—more than 730,000 of them—into poverty. Will the Minister acknowledge that the two-child limit is harmful and work with Treasury colleagues to overturn it?”

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  16. “The Government have made a promise that those transferring from legacy benefits to universal credit will find themselves no worse off, yet Liberal Democrat colleagues from all over the country are finding that people are worse off. Will the Minister share evidence of how the Government are supporting the most vulnerable where they find themselves worse off?”

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  17. “T10. I have recently been contacted by International House Torquay, a language school, which has welcomed the opportunity for German foreign students to use ID cards to travel as a group. Can the Minister advise what further opportunities there will be for other European countries such as Switzerland, Italy and Spain to take advantage of a similar scheme?”

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  18. “Brixham has the highest-value catch in England, yet it is in Torbay, which is the most deprived local authority in the south-west of England. How will local levels of deprivation colour the allocation of funding for England?”

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  19. “Massive cuts to the Supporting People budget were at the root of those challenges, and I am afraid to say that under the Labour Government, we have a quarter of a billion pounds of cuts to our NHS, our mental health service has lost £21 million, and the homeless and rough sleepers team in Torbay is being ripped out. Will the Minister intervene with the Devon Partnership NHS trust over the savage cuts that are leaving some of the most vulnerable people even more on the edges of our society in Torbay?”

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  20. “Clearly, we have seen a massive reduction in our social rented housing stock—from 34% of housing stock when Thatcher came into power to just 17% now. In Torbay, only 7% of housing stock is social rented. The private sector has stepped up, but that leaves people with massive bills to pay for what is sometimes not the best housing. I pay tribute to some of those who pick up the pieces of this challenge: Kath from PATH, an excellent charity; Rev. Sam Leach and his team at St Mags who do incredible work supporting our street homeless; and also the Unleashed theatre, which won the King’s award for voluntary service, supporting homeless people across Torbay.”

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  21. “Thank you for chairing this debate, Mr Efford, and I congratulate the hon. Members for Liverpool Wavertree (Paula Barker) and for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on securing it. Homelessness—what we see on the streets across the United Kingdom—is just the tip of the iceberg of the crisis in our housing system. For more than 30 years, I have campaigned on this issue while serving my local community. One of the sad pleasures is occasionally going out with our outreach team in Torbay and knowing that there is somebody going up to a person sleeping in a doorway, saying to them, “Hello, I’m from Torbay council. Would you like something to eat or drink, and how can we help?” That is extremely humbling, and I pay tribute to those members of staff.”

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  22. “The Conservatives still have not apologised for the appalling state that they left our NHS in. Torbay hospital is the third oldest hospital in the United Kingdom. It has a tower block wreathed in scaffolding to stop bits of it falling off rather than it being under repair, and it has sewage leaks throughout. Sadly, it needs significant investment, which has been kicked into the long grass. A senior manager described the situation only this week as “dire”. Will the Minister meet me and hospital representatives to explore how we can achieve the investment to turn this round?”

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  23. “Torquay Boys’ grammar school has long delivered the international baccalaureate. My own eldest son, George, has benefited from that and, under the scheme, has volunteered in a care home. He is now on the cusp of becoming a registrar for care of the elderly. During my meeting with the head of Torquay Boys’ last Friday, he expressed particular concern about the impact of the lack of social mobility and the impact on the ability to deliver languages. Will the Secretary of State think again about these cuts to the international baccalaureate?”

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  24. “I congratulate the Minister on her appointment and welcome the core principle that she described: giving our communities the power to decide how to put money to best use. I am delighted that Torbay has been awarded two tranches of pride in place funding. However, it is a perverse badge of honour, because it demonstrates that we are the most deprived local authority in the south-west of England, the Conservatives having short-changed us. Another challenge in Torbay is the fact that social rented homes account for only 7% of our housing. Will the Minister reflect on how the whole Government can try to meet the desperate need for social housing in Torbay, which has less than half the national average?”

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  25. “On funding, the Devon partnership NHS trust looks after people with mental health challenges in the Torbay community, where levels of depths of despair are particularly high. The trust is facing a £21 million cut, so does my hon. Friend agree that changes will be irrelevant if we do not have adequate funding?”

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  26. “I congratulate the Secretary of State on her new position. I am mindful of her previous position, where she masterminded the personal independence payment reforms, so with her proposals before us today I am concerned that she is fast becoming the Minister for lost causes. In my constituency, we have an awful lot of people who are digitally excluded; it is really sobering. Will she please give us some clear examples of how people will be helped? I know of dozens and dozens of people who are against the proposal in principle, but what about those who will potentially be excluded?”

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  27. “The police in Torbay tell me that in Paignton and Torquay town centres a number of habitual offenders see a call back to prison as just a professional risk. Does my hon. Friend agree that after years of a lack of investment by the Conservatives, we need to see investment in rehabilitation to help keep those individuals on the straight and narrow?”

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  28. “Professional standards set the tone and the culture for the whole organisation. I pay tribute to Roy Linden, who is the commander of South Devon police, the old F division. There is a significant challenge relating to the lack of knowledge within the police. There are lots of new officers, and if we do not have the professional standards holding people to account, police often fall short of the standards that many of us would expect of them.”

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  29. “I alluded to the fact that we have sadly lost an awful lot of police officers with deep knowledge, and many of our police officers are relatively new to the position. Will the Minister reflect on how we can build that long-term knowledge back into the police force, because that can drive better standards where services are being provided, rather than looking for where things have already fallen over?”

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  30. “The Liberal Democrats welcome the direction of travel. As the shadow Minister identified, the industry has demanded some elements of the clauses, but they are mostly about supporting consumers. The end users of these services should be a key element of what the Bill is about.”

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  31. “To stop this, we need to take some inspiration from Ireland, where there are limits of 10% increases and surge pricing is banned in both primary and secondary markets. We need to allow true fans to sell on the tickets they are no longer able to take advantage of, but limit the additional handling fees to a reasonable level and ban surging. Concerts are an outstanding way of enhancing one’s sense of wellbeing, relaxing and, probably most importantly, developing a sense of community. However, we need to ensure that people are protected when buying tickets, because we all need a bit of light relief in the challenging world that we all live in now.”

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  32. “Taxi drivers and those in the hospitality industry told me that the bay was buzzing, and that it was better than a bank holiday weekend. However, there are opportunities for ticket touts to come into play for these types of festivals. One of my staff was impacted by ticket touting on Ticketmaster for the Oasis concert—there is no accounting for taste—which the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington mentioned. He spent hours online and saw the ticket go from £135 to more than £300—the surge pricing that we believe is wicked. On the secondary market, we saw that same ticket go up to £6,000. It is utterly shameful. I am aware that Ticketmaster sometimes labels tickets as if they are platinum when they are actually the same as standard tickets. Regulation is needed in these areas.”

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  33. “Concerts are an extremely enriching part of our lives. In my youth, I may have gone to a Deep Purple or AC/DC concert, but my guilty pleasure was going to “Abba Voyage” not that long ago. This is my only pun: we are seeing dirty deeds done not so dirt cheap to our consumers. Surge pricing and hidden costs are absolutely shameful. Concerts are a way of driving tourism. I would not have gone to Leipzig a couple of years ago had it not been one of the few venues that I could easily get to to see one of my favourite bands, Goran Bregović and his Wedding and Funeral Orchestra. In my constituency of Torbay we have Electric Bay, an outstanding festival that was headlined by Fatboy Slim this summer on the Saturday night.”

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  34. “It is perverse that those who are poorest have to pay more because they are least able to jump in a car, and very often do not own a car, so have little choice but to use the Tesco Metro, or a similar shop, in the town centre. I would like some reflections from the Minister on that. We also heard about e-bikes. It would be welcome to hear the Minister talk about regulations around e-bikes. The problem is not just e-bikes catching fire but the irresponsible ownership of them, and the fact that there is no age limit on their ownership. I spoke to a police officer earlier this week, and that was one of the challenges she faced. In addition, often those using e-bikes are up to no good, so greater regulation around e-bikes and some words from the Minister would be extremely welcome. I will move on to the main meat of my speech.”

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  35. “It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Siobhain. I congratulate the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) on securing this important debate. What we have heard from hon. Members has been extremely wide-ranging. I will focus the vast majority of my speech on ticket touting and scalping. However, I want to reflect on what we have heard from hon. Members on shrinkflation and on how important it is to allow the public to understand the true price of goods. I look forward to hearing from the Minister on that, and also on the challenge of the Tesco Metro in the town centre having significantly higher prices than the out-of-town supermarkets. That is a significant issue in my constituency of Torbay.”

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  36. “We are keen to get on the public record what he says in this area, because we know from conversations with the industry that there is some interest in the matter.”

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  37. “I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. New clause 2 is about market consolidation, and ensuring that the Minister undertakes to report back so we can see how it is progressing. Clearly, market consolidation will have positive impacts, but there is a law of unforeseen consequences, so it is important to ensure that there is a regular health check on what is happening in the market. It is not only about that law of unintended consequences, but about checking out the opportunity for new entrants to come into the system, and making sure that there are no unexpected barriers. To our mind, it is good practice that one would hope would be undertaken. The new clause is a probing amendment; we will not be pressing it to a vote, but I look forward to reassurances from the Minister.”

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  38. “(3) In preparing the report, the Secretary of State must consult— (a) the Pensions Regulator, (b) the Financial Conduct Authority, (c) representatives of pension scheme trustees, members, and sponsoring employers, and (d) such other experts or bodies as the Secretary of State considers appropriate. (4) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the report before both Houses of Parliament.”— (Steve Darling.) This new clause requires the Secretary of State to report on whether the fiduciary duties of trustees of occupational pension schemes should be amended to permit discretionary indexation of pre-1997 accrued rights, where scheme funding allows. Brought up, and read the First time.”

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  39. “(2) The report must consider— (a) the impact of current fiduciary obligations on trustees’ ability to award discretionary increases to pre-1997 pension benefits; (b) the potential benefits of permitting such discretionary indexation for affected pensioners; (c) the funding conditions and thresholds under which discretionary indexation could be considered sustainable; (d) the appropriate level of regulatory oversight and guidance required to ensure that discretionary increases are granted in a fair, transparent, and financially responsible manner; (e) international approaches to indexation of legacy pension benefits; (f) the legal and actuarial implications of amending fiduciary duties in this context.”

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  40. “I thank the Minister for putting his thoughts on the record. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. New Clause 5 Report on fiduciary duty and discretionary indexation of pre-1997 benefits “(1) The Secretary of State must, within 12 months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on whether the fiduciary duties of trustees of occupational pension schemes should be amended to permit discretionary indexation of pre-1997 accrued rights, where scheme funding allows.”

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  41. “As Liberal Democrats, we sympathise with the aims, but we feel that we need to have confidence that the system has the capacity to pay out. Our proposal is a steady hand on the tiller approach. It is about sense checking and ensuring that there is an ability to support the appropriate levels of indexation. I hope that the Minister will look kindly upon the proposal, as it is the more level-headed approach, with all due respect to Plaid and the SNP.”

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  42. “[ Interruption. ] I am not quite used to getting interrupted by thunder. Perhaps I should get used to it, with Jennie winning Westminster Dog of the Year, or at least the popular vote. Clearly, it was rigged—I jest. On a more serious note, we are looking at a cohort of pensioners, the pre-’97 pensioners, who have been left behind without indexation. We heard moving evidence from two gentlemen who shared the challenges that many of those pensioners face, living in higher levels of poverty because of the failure to index. Our proposal is to ensure that there is a responsibility to explore the possibility of amending the fiduciary duties—something I was not even aware of until I started exploring the Bill—to support the possibility of indexation. I am aware that a more prescriptive new clause has also been tabled.”

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  43. “Equally, historically, pensions may not have taken account of how people’s lives might have become more complicated, such as with partners and the way that life moves on. We ask the Minister to reflect on that, and see how he may be able to tackle this injustice. I apologise for leaving before we complete the debate on the new clause, Ms Lewell.”

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  44. “I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. I am afraid I have a difficulty, Ms Lewell: I am appearing soon in a Westminster Hall debate as a spokesperson, so I will have to go part-way through this debate—accept my sincere apologies for that. New clause 7 is the beginning of a series of new clauses on pensions injustices. It is intended to probe. I know from fellow MPs that there are significant amounts of casework about people who fall short of being acknowledged as receiving benefits from pensions, such as spouses or partners of different descriptions. Our world is complicated. I am adopted, and went from having one sibling to nine siblings in total; I have a complicated family. We all have complicated families.”

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  45. “I understand that Ukraine holds approximately €190 billion in frozen Russian assets. Press reports today suggest that there is a level of flexibility in the stance on releasing them, as long as there are some legal guarantees from the European Union around the risks that may be faced. Are the Government supporting the European Union to unlock this opportunity, which could help to support efforts in Ukraine?”

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  46. “In Torbay, which is sadly one of the most deprived constituencies in the south-west of England, bus travel is the primary form of public transport. The £2 price cap was valued by young people and by those of working age in navigating Torbay. Does my hon. Friend agree that its reinstatement would help oil the wheels of our communities, such as Torbay?”

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  47. “As the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, I echo that this is a direction of travel that we welcome. The vast majority of the proposals that are before us today are uncontentious. They follow the correct direction of travel in growth and change that we want to see in our pensions system in the United Kingdom. Question put and agreed to. Clause 27 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 28 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 29 Further provision about contents of small pots regulations”

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  48. “As Liberal Democrats, one of the key lenses through which we look at the legislation is: how does it simplify the world for those who are not the most financially literate savers into their pensions? As Liberal Democrats, we strongly support the “pot follows member” approach, as it would simplify matters for people. It would ensure a clearer mechanism for savers to be aware of the level of their pension as their life moves on, and allow investments to be drawn together more easily. It would be interesting to hear the Minister’s reflections on that, and on why the Australian model is unsuitable for the United Kingdom.”

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  49. “We therefore continue to have grave concerns around mandation, and look forward to hearing what assurances the Minister is able to give. The key outcome for us is making sure that there is a stable pensions system in which people can have confidence, because confidence is crucial for driving the positive investment that I am sure everybody in this room wants to see.”

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  50. “We have no issue with the technical amendments. However, for us the crucial issue in the Bill is driving an environment of positive investment, and a system in the United Kingdom that individual investors—as in, would-be pensioners—can believe in. The mandation element causes concern. As has been alluded to, there are assumptions that Ministers are reasonable people; however, we do not have to look that far across the Atlantic ocean to see politicians behaving unreasonably. It concerns us as Liberal Democrats that giving powers in the Bill without clear management of them is potentially a step too far. While the Minister, and other Ministers in the current Government, may be reasonable, who knows what is coming down the line in a very turbulent political system?”

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