Pat Sheehan
West Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does she agree that the Minister's School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill was poor legislation and a missed opportunity?”
“The last point that you made reminded me of one of the witnesses — a young girl — who came to the Committee. During the winter, she wore her own overcoat, but she had to take it off 100 yards from the school gate because she was not allowed to wear it into the school.”
“Agus iad ag ullmhú le haghaidh scrúduithe GCSE agus ard-leibhéil, féadann an imní agus an éiginnteacht sin drochthionchar a imirt ar a n-oideachas agus ar a bhfolláine.”
“Is scannalach go deo an foréigean ciníoch a chonaic muid le seachtain anuas. Tá ionsaithe ar theaghlaigh, ar thithe agus ar ghnólachtaí doleithscéil, agus tá siad dochosanta. Níor cheart eagla a mbáis a bheith ar dhaoine neamhurchóideacha mar gheall ar a gcine, a gcúlra ná a gcreideamh.”
“One of the reasons, Daniel, is that, if we were to have blocked the Bill at the Executive, the SDLP would be saying tomorrow morning "This place is dysfunctional. You're blocking legislation. Sinn Féin is blocking legislation, and the DUP is blocking legislation". No, we are not blocking legislation.”
“I have not once today argued against inspections. Not once. The Bill is about one thing and one thing only: intimidating and punishing teachers.”
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“Thank you for that advice. Of course, we are discussing the legislation, with the restrictions on gatherings, on going into other people's houses, on weddings, on funerals and all the rest of it. Collectively, it is all being described as a lockdown. I accept that it is not a lockdown in the true sense of the word, but that is the way that it is being described. I have tried to outline the type of system that we could put in place that would be an alternative to those restrictions so that society and the economy could carry on very much as normal, as is happening in South Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, Hong Kong and so on. In a sense, there is agreement. I am in agreement, to an extent, with Jonathan Buckley. I do not want a lockdown. Jonathan does not want a lockdown.”
“If they live in a house in multiple occupation (HMO), for example, how can they isolate in that context? They need to have support from the powers that be — whether it is the Department or the Executive or whoever — that can take over a hotel — as happened at the start of the pandemic, when one of the hotels in the centre of Belfast was taken over — so that people can isolate and have support and so that there is a system in place. If people need somebody to go to the shop to get their messages, there is somebody there to do that. If they need financial support, it is there as well, and that is —.”
“Why are we not taking 1,000 people off the dole queues and training them to contact trace in order to put in place a proper system of find, test, trace, isolate and support? <BR /> <BR />What do we mean by "find"? Well, the only way that you can get a test here is if you have symptoms, yet it is estimated that up to 60% of people do not have symptoms at all. How do we find them? We find them by mass testing. I welcome the announcement by the Chief Scientific Adviser, and more recently by the Minister, to say that there is a possibility, in the coming weeks, that the capacity may be there to carry out mass testing in a way that has not happened thus far. <BR /> <BR />We need to find those who have the virus, to isolate them, and then to support them.”
“Professor Samuel McConkey, who is a consultant in infectious diseases — he is originally from this parish but is in one of the universities in Dublin — benchmarked the system in the South with Wuhan in China, and he estimated that the South need 2,500 contact tracers to have a proper and efficient system to track and trace all those who have been in contact with positive cases. If you extrapolate from that, we need around 1,000 contact tracers, and we have 88. <BR /> <BR />According, again, to the ECDC, it takes between four and 20 hours to train a contact tracer. The topics covered include disease epidemiology, the contact-tracing process, how to conduct interviews, practical examples and exercises, and data protection issues.”
“Outside of a lockdown situation, that number rises to between seven and 20. So, do the sums: let us take an average and say that each positive case had 10 contacts; that means that there are 10,000 people who need to be traced in one day. Somebody explain to me how 88 people can do that. The sums just do not add up. <BR /> <BR />Just by coincidence, on the following day, there was an article in 'The Irish Times' about the contact-tracing system in the South. Some were saying that it had been overrun on the previous weekend, whereas others were saying that it had not been overrun but that it was understaffed and that that was the problem.”
“I told him that it was insufficient and that, with the upsurge in the number of people contracting the virus, it was not going to cut the mustard. Not long after that, the chief executive of the PHA, which has responsibility for contact tracing, was at the Committee. She said that 151 people were involved in contact tracing. When I asked what that amounted to in full-time equivalents, she could not, or would not — I am not sure which — give an answer. It has since transpired that there are 88 full-time equivalents. Do the sums. At that point, when the PHA was giving evidence to the Committee, the rate of transmission was around 1,000 cases a day. The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) states that, in a lockdown situation, you can expect each positive case to have had two or three contacts.”
“The answer was no; there had been no contact. I am not suggesting for one second that we are exactly the same as any of those countries. Of course, we are not; there are differences. I also remember, at the outset of the pandemic, being told about the lockdown in China, particularly in Wuhan. Commentators were saying that there was no way that that would be acceptable here — we could not have such a lockdown — because we are a democratic country and China is an authoritarian country. Lo and behold, we had a lockdown, and it did what it was intended to do. Unfortunately, we did not use the time to try to prepare for a second wave of the virus, and we are in a very difficult situation now. <BR /> <BR />Five or six weeks ago, I spoke here when the Health Minister was responding, and I raised the issue of our contact-tracing system.”
“<BR /> <BR />I believe that there is. We need to look at international best practice. I have already given the example of the face masks. Among the countries that have been most successful in tackling the virus are such East Asian countries as Vietnam, South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan, with a combined population of 178·5 million people. How many deaths have there been? There has been a total combined death toll of 629. That is fewer people than have died here, in a population of 1·5 million. Why is that? What are they doing right that we are not doing? What can we learn from them? <BR /> <BR />A couple of weeks ago, at a Committee meeting, I asked the chief social worker whether the Department had made any direct contact with any of those countries to find out what they were doing and from which we could learn.”
“They ensure that the health and social care system does not collapse on us, that the most seriously ill can still get treated and that the transmission of the virus is reduced in society and our communities. <BR /> <BR />I have some sympathy for those who oppose the lockdowns, but I have suspicions, too, because among them are the science deniers, the crackpots and so on. None of us wants any sort of lockdown. None of us wants to live under the conditions that we have had to live under for the past seven or eight months. Who in their right mind would want to live in this situation? Is there an alternative to this type of draconian legislation that means that people cannot have the wedding that they would normally have, visit their families or visit relatives in care homes or hospitals, for instance? Is there any alternative?”
“I agree that there are people who are dying from cardiovascular disease, cancer and other diseases who cannot get the proper and requisite treatment as a result of what is happening with the virus and the fact that the health service is being overrun. The fact is that if people are seriously ill with COVID-19, they have to be hospitalised. If people are seriously ill with cancer, cardiovascular disease or whatever, they also have to be hospitalised. The capacity is not there. <BR /> <BR />Some argue that we should have built up capacity in the hospital system, but that cannot be done overnight. We are in the position that we are in because of years of underinvestment, and we will not be able to fix that overnight. We need an alternative. What the restrictions do is give us a breathing space.”
“On top of that, we have a pandemic that is killing people, leading people into serious illness and leaving others with long-term conditions as a result of the disease. How have we ended up in that situation? Why does our health and social care system not have the capacity to deal with what is coming at us in the pandemic? It is because the health system has been underfunded for years. There is a direct causal connection between that lack of investment and underfunding and the lack of capacity in the health and social care system to deal with the pandemic. It is not rocket science; we do not have the capacity. <BR /> <BR />We need to introduce measures, draconian though they may be, to ensure that the system is not completely overrun.”
“<BR /> <BR />Like most of the regulations introduced over the past months, the regulations are draconian. Of course, under normal circumstances, we would not introduce legislation like that. The question that people ask is this: why do we need those restrictions? Quite simply, we need them because if we did not have them, the health and social care system would be overrun. I heard Jonathan Buckley say that COVID-19 kills but that lockdown can also kill. It is not the lockdown that kills but the fact that the health service does not have the capacity. It did not have the capacity in the first place to deal with all the diseases and conditions that exist out there. Waiting lists were already far too long.”
“One thing that I have noticed about the countries that have been most successful in suppressing the virus is that they are the countries that moved quickly and did not wait for absolute, 100%, solid, concrete evidence. They moved quickly. It is the countries that have a culture of wearing face masks that, in the main, have been most successful in dealing with the virus. They did not wait for 100%, solid, concrete evidence before they did that. However, there was evidence — and it was compelling evidence — that the wearing of masks reduced transmission of the virus. We waited, and we waited longer than we should have. We should have moved more quickly. That should be a lesson to us when we come to make other decisions about what will be useful in the fight against the virus.”
“He appeared on 'Good Morning Ulster' a few days after that and stated that there was considerable evidence that wearing a face mask significantly reduced the transmission of the virus.”
“As has been stated on numerous occasions in the debate, we are talking about regulations that have already been implemented. A number of them deal with the wearing of face coverings, face masks or whatever you want to call them. I am sure that the junior Minister will recall that I have raised the issue on a number of occasions in previous debates in the Chamber. The evidence about face masks has been compelling for some time; indeed, when the Chief Scientific Adviser was at the Health Committee a couple of months ago, before the introduction of the regulations, he said that he was concerned to discover that, whenever he went into a shop, he was the only one wearing a face mask.”
“Can the Minister advise the House whether the new mitigations legislation will provide much-needed protections for those who lost out as a result of moving to universal credit?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. What supports have been provided for those who are required to self-isolate?”
“I thank the Minister for that. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. On the subject of all-island connectivity, will the Minister comment on the recent North/South Ministerial Council and specifically on whether the indefinite suspension of the Bus Éireann service between Dublin and Belfast got a mention?”
“Air pollution is a serious issue in the North, particularly in Belfast, where one in every 24 deaths is linked to long-term exposure to air pollution. Given the seriousness of that and that transport is massively responsible for a lot of that air pollution, what is the Department's overarching strategy to deal with air pollution and to make cities cleaner, healthier places to live in?”
“Many people are very concerned about the cancellation or pausing of outpatient services. Will the Minister tell us how he will prioritise pressing and urgent cases, particularly in neurology and pain clinics?”
“Go raibh maith agat, agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. Hospices provide a vital service here but their funding has been badly impacted as a result of COVID. Will any extra funding be provided to the hospices in the time ahead?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I draw the Speaker's attention to the remarks made by the AERA Minister, Edwin Poots, on Friday, when he accused the nationalist/Catholic community of having spread this virus. He also called into question the collective decision-making of the Executive. Those comments were unbecoming of any Executive Minister, and I ask the Speaker to investigate the remarks and report back to the Assembly.”
“Does the First Minister agree that, if we do not start to put in place a proper system of rigorous testing, tracing, isolating and supporting, we will face more and more restrictions in the future?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis ar maidin. I thank the First Minister for her statement this morning. I listened to her say in response to another Member's question that the clear message coming from the Executive is that people have to take responsibility: of course, that is absolutely true. However, people are also asking how we, as political leaders and as the Executive, are doing our part to deal with the virus. Some countries have been much more successful in dealing with it. They have used much more nuanced methods and tools to fight it than we have. Despite the First Minister's assertion that the measures will last for only four weeks, if we do not get our act together, we will have to impose more restrictions. The fact is that the imposition of such restrictions and the first lockdown were a blunt instrument.”
“Will the First Minister detail the scope of the work that the operational readiness team is involved in?”
“You will be aware, Minister, that many people have lost their job as a result of the pandemic and want to reskill and retrain and maybe do a second degree in a different field or postgrad study, but the cost of childcare and poor financial support for postgrad students are obstacles. Has the Minister had specific discussions with the Student Loans Company or the universities about increasing support for postgrad students?”
“It would be interesting to hear about the extra precautions and extra capacity that have been built into the system to ensure that we can deal with that.”
“We could put in place the best possible system, but, if those on the other side of the border do not do the same thing, that will be the weak link in the chain all the time. I implore the Minister to take account of the fact that the island should be treated as an epidemiological unit. Before any restrictions come in anywhere on the island, there should be discussions between the relevant CMOs and Health Ministers. <BR /> <BR />We are in a difficult situation. The Minister is in a difficult position. There are issues with capacity in our health and social care system. Questions have been raised about what preparations there have been over the past six or seven months, because we are all aware that we were waiting for a second surge.”
“I know of cases where people tested positive and did not isolate; they just went about their business. Some of them were in low-paid work and could not afford to isolate for a fortnight, so they went into work. When we talk about supporting those who have to isolate, we are talking about ensuring that there is financial support. I know that a £500 payment was agreed across the water and that people will get it, but it has not been introduced here, as far as I am aware. That is something that the Executive should maybe focus on. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we live on a small island. Irrespective of where we come from politically on that and on the partition of the island, if we do not operate collectively and collaborate across this island, it really does not matter what we do on either side of the border.”
“We had a situation not long after that across the water where 16,000 people were not contact-traced as a result of some glitch in the technology, and the difficulties here have been well documented. I am concerned. I know that, when the contact tracing operation was re-established, only around 100 people were involved in it. You told us recently that there were recruitment adverts for other people to join that team. I am not sure that there were significant numbers; I think that it was 20 or maybe 40. If we are getting 1,000 cases a day, it will not be long before that contact tracing operation is completely overwhelmed. We need to take account of that. <BR /> <BR />It is not just about testing and tracing; it is also about isolating and supporting those who are isolated.”
“It also appears that, at the minute, the infections are disproportionately affecting younger people, who are healthier and less likely to succumb to serious illness. It may well be that there is less fear in the community. However, we also have to take account of the fact that the numbers have risen very quickly, and, a week, two weeks or three weeks down the road, we could face an increase in the numbers of hospital admissions, serious illnesses and deaths. It is important that the Executive get that message out. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the issue that Paula raised on contact tracing. We have had six or seven months to get the contact tracing sorted out. I spoke here a couple of weeks ago about the difficulties that I had.”
“<BR /> <BR />I understand — we all understand — that we are in a difficult situation, particularly now, with the rising number of infections. Added to that, there seems to be a rising number of pandemic deniers. We have anti-mask demonstrations, conspiracy theorists and every crackpot you can think of coming out and making sure that their voice is heard. We do not know how strong that view is out there, but there certainly appear to be cracks appearing in society's approach to the virus. That may be because, despite the rising number of infections, it appears that fewer people are dying. That can be explained in a number of ways. We are nine or 10 months into the pandemic, so we have more knowledge than we had at the start. There are treatments, drugs and so on available now that were not available when the pandemic first hit us.”
“He said that the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) website was open to the public and that, if we wanted, we could go there, but there were thousands of pages. For me, it was not so much what he said as the way in which he said it. He gave the appearance of being reluctant to provide the Committee with the evidence that it needs to carry out its statutory role of scrutinising legislation. In terms of the process that the Committee is engaged in and what it needs to carry out its statutory role, the attitude of the Chief Scientific Adviser last week, in my view, certainly left a lot to be desired. If the Committee cannot be given the evidence that is being used to underpin the introduction of the regulations, it cannot do its job properly.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as teacht isteach anseo ar maidin. I thank the Minister for coming here this afternoon. I support the regulations, although my support is not unqualified for any of the coronavirus regulations. In normal circumstances, we would not support them, but, given the situation that we are in, they are considered necessary. <BR /> <BR />It has already been mentioned that the process for the Health Committee's scrutiny of the regulations has come under some criticism recently. There was an issue at the Health Committee last week, when the Chief Scientific Adviser was giving evidence. He was asked about providing the Committee with the evidence to support the introduction of the regulations.”
“We ask the public to sign up to that contract and to be party to it, but we have to carry out our part of the contract.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Principal Deputy Speaker said that we should not move into the area of testing and tracing. I do not want to do so, but that is part of the contract of the regulations and the system that is in place to keep people safe. Testing and tracing is essential to keeping people safe, and, at the minute, there are difficulties with it. This morning, we saw a letter signed by 13 senior medics from different hospitals who say that the testing and tracing system needs fixed. We saw difficulties across the water yesterday, where 16,000 people were not traced because of a technical malfunction. If we, as political leaders, are to do our best to keep people safe, we must get over those difficulties. <BR /> <BR />There is a contract.”
“I assure you that I am being very sincere, and I hope that you remain in good health in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />I support the regulations as amended. They deal with the reopening of soft-play centres and are a relaxation of the previous draconian legislation. We have all been here many times dealing with these regulations, and most agree that they have been draconian, albeit necessary to get to grips with the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />In many ways, the regulations are like part of a contract. We ask people to abide by the regulations, and, in return, they expect us to keep them safe. We ask them to adhere to social distancing, to wash their hands and all of those other measures like wearing masks and so on. In turn, for accepting those draconian regulations, they expect us to do our best to keep them safe.”
“First, I welcome you back to the Speaker's Chair, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Your wit and humour have been missed during your absence.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra. I thank the Minister for her answer. Given that a number of issues were not included in the consultation, such as sentencing in respect of drugs and car theft, does the Minister believe that the consultation went far enough to address the lack of public confidence in sentencing policy?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis. I thank the Minister for the statement this morning. Can she advise why this appointment is not coming into effect until 14 December?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis ar maidin agus as a chuid freagraí ar maidin chomh maith. I thank the Minister for the statement this morning and his answers so far. Will he commit to supporting Health and Social Care staff, particularly those who may be absent from work while ill with COVID-related illness? Can he ensure that they will get their full wages rather than just statutory sick pay?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad-Aire as ucht an ráitis. I thank the First Minister for the statement this morning. Does she believe that the British Government's job support scheme is adequate to support workers who have to leave work to self-isolate?”
“It is not as if audiologists are being dragged into the front line to deal with COVID. I am sorry that I did not get the chance to ask the Minister that before he spoke, but it is a question that I am putting out there. <BR /> <BR />I know that I have not mentioned a lot of Members. Everybody who spoke mentioned underachievement in education and issues around mental ill health. I think it was Colm who mentioned the fact that last week was dementia week and that there is a suggestion that loss of hearing is a factor in dementia in older people. All of those issues make this a much more serious issue than it would appear on the face of it. Again, I thank everybody for contributing to the debate and the Minister for coming along.”
“As the Minister said, a lot of the consultations and treatments cannot take place because the safety of patients and staff, and so on. However, the ordinary layperson will wonder why a service such as this, which, I understand, is carried out by audiologists who are technicians — if I am wrong, I stand corrected — cannot happen. There is no aerosol-generating procedure involved, as far as I am aware. <BR /> <BR />I remember when I was at primary school. We used to get hearing tests on a regular basis. You put on a set of earphones, a noise came through and you tapped the table with a pencil. Apparently, it has advanced and you now press a button instead of tapping the table. I make a light-hearted comment about that, but the serious point is that ordinary people do not understand why some of these tests have been cancelled.”
“In a sense, that is a microcosm of the whole issue of hearing difficulties and deafness that we have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />The ramifications of hearing difficulties and deafness are much more profound than just, "Oh, tough luck, those kids couldn't get their hearing tested or their implant". It is much more profound than that. I think that when we are dealing with issues like this, then all of us should not be thinking about somebody else's kids, but our own kids. How would we feel if our children had hearing difficulties and could not get the early intervention and treatment that they need, deserve and are entitled to? <BR /> <BR />I take on board Alan's point: the Minister came into his job with all the good intentions of the world, and COVID-19 put paid to a lot of those issues. I do not want to raise a discordant note.”
“I know, and any of you who have been involved in the Committee for Education will know, that when children fall behind in school, for whatever reason, it is often very difficult for them to catch up again. What then happens is that they continue to fall behind and they end up leaving school with no educational qualifications. What is the upshot of that? People end up more likely to become involved in the criminal justice system, to have chronic ill health and more likely to suffer mental ill health. That was one of the points that Robbie made about isolation and loneliness. I think of my friend in a crowd of 10 or 15 other fellas, who was sitting outside of their company and not able to participate or communicate, with that sense of isolation and loneliness.”
“<BR /> <BR />Colm made the point earlier about making sure that people with hearing difficulties are treated with dignity, and the way to do that is to ensure that there is early intervention. Practically everyone who has been involved in this debate has talked about early intervention because the earlier that you intervene then the better that the outcomes are. <BR /> <BR />Of course, in the overall scheme of things, some people may not think that this debate is very important. When we are in here debating big-ticket issues like Brexit, global pandemics and so on, this may seem like very small beer in comparison. However, we have to think about the implications of this. <BR /> <BR />Educational under attainment among young people with hearing difficulties was mentioned. What is the upshot of that?”
“<BR /> <BR />I was away a few years ago with a crowd of lads — we were away on a weekend at a match or something. As usual on those occasions, there was a bit too much alcohol consumed and the company was loud and a bit raucous at times. I noticed that one of the lads, who was usually the life and soul of the party, was sitting in the background, and he seemed down in the mouth for some reason. I went to speak to him and he explained to me that he had been having hearing difficulties and that he was waiting on a new hearing aid. However, with all of the noise he could not engage, communicate or hear what was going on, and I just thought that for a lad who was always so happy-go-lucky, he was so demoralised. Imagine that situation for people who have hearing loss and who do not get treated.”
“Unfortunately, that will not get a lot of column inches tomorrow, and there will not be any sensationalist radio shows congratulating us on agreement in the Chamber, but that is life, I suppose, and we just have to deal with that. <BR /> <BR />5.00 pm <BR /> <BR />I was on a Zoom meeting this morning, and I suppose that most of us have experienced difficulties in this Building with the Wi-Fi. I was using my laptop and the signal kept dropping in and out. I was picking up bits and there was background noise and everything. It was while I was half preparing for this debate and I was thinking that that is the experience of people with hearing difficulties. They do not hear everything; background noise interferes and they experience those difficulties on a daily basis.”
“Go raibh maith agat. Tá áthas orm bheith ag labhairt sa díospóireacht seo inniu agus ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach aon duine a bhí ag labhairt anseo inniu. I welcome the opportunity to speak in today's debate. I thank everyone who contributed. I especially thank the Minister for his response and for coming along today to listen to the debate. I welcome his acknowledgment that more needs to be done to tackle waiting lists, particularly in those specialist areas. <BR /> <BR />As has been noted, there is consensus right across the Chamber today on the motion and the issue involved.”