Pat Sheehan
West Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does she agree that the Minister's School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill was poor legislation and a missed opportunity?”
“The last point that you made reminded me of one of the witnesses — a young girl — who came to the Committee. During the winter, she wore her own overcoat, but she had to take it off 100 yards from the school gate because she was not allowed to wear it into the school.”
“Agus iad ag ullmhú le haghaidh scrúduithe GCSE agus ard-leibhéil, féadann an imní agus an éiginnteacht sin drochthionchar a imirt ar a n-oideachas agus ar a bhfolláine.”
“Is scannalach go deo an foréigean ciníoch a chonaic muid le seachtain anuas. Tá ionsaithe ar theaghlaigh, ar thithe agus ar ghnólachtaí doleithscéil, agus tá siad dochosanta. Níor cheart eagla a mbáis a bheith ar dhaoine neamhurchóideacha mar gheall ar a gcine, a gcúlra ná a gcreideamh.”
“One of the reasons, Daniel, is that, if we were to have blocked the Bill at the Executive, the SDLP would be saying tomorrow morning "This place is dysfunctional. You're blocking legislation. Sinn Féin is blocking legislation, and the DUP is blocking legislation". No, we are not blocking legislation.”
“I have not once today argued against inspections. Not once. The Bill is about one thing and one thing only: intimidating and punishing teachers.”
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“That is unfortunate, but it is a fact of life that we have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />Savings and efficiencies can be made. The establishment of the new single Education Authority in place of the five education and library boards is a welcome development. There will be savings, although some have already been made through cutbacks in staff and what have you. Other savings and efficiencies will be made, but they will not be short term, unfortunately. Even though most of us are confident that there will be savings, it is difficult to estimate how much. <BR /> <BR />All of us in the Chamber understand how important education is. For many, it is a route out of poverty and deprivation. I note that there was a letter in this morning's 'The Irish News' from you, Mr Deputy Speaker, saying that education is the greatest weapon against inequality.”
“However, it is always important that the people whom we represent understand that it is not us who are making the cuts. We are just dealing with the consequences of cuts that have been made by the Tory Government in London. We all know that, as a result of that, the education sector is facing a very challenging financial situation. Of course, given the extent of the cuts to the block grant, the challenges faced by the education sector will continue well beyond this Budget period of 2015-16. It is important, therefore, that, in that context, the Minister should protect front-line services as much as is humanly possible. However, we all know, given the breadth and depth of the cuts to the Budget and the scale of the Budget reductions, that it will simply be impossible to maintain all core services at their current levels.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I was struck by something that the Minister said during Question Time: we have an education system, not just a school system. That, in essence, is what our amendment is about. Everyone is rightly concerned about what might happen in the classroom. As recently as lunchtime today, I spoke to teachers who are obviously concerned about what will happen in the classroom in the face of these budget cuts. <BR /> <BR />In the Committee Chair's opening remarks, she said that the Minister had broken two golden rules. She actually broke the primary golden rule, insofar as when she spoke about the cuts, she did not put the blame where it firmly lies: with the Tory Government in Westminster. They have cut the budget and the block grant, and we have to deal with the consequences of that.”
“Is it the supplementary? Gabh mo leithscéal. I beg your pardon, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was not prepared for the question, so I think it better that I just sit down again.”
“Go raibh maith agat. Ceist uimhir a naoi.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. I thank the Minister for her answers so far. Will she expand on what help is in place to assist arts organisations in the current financial climate?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas seo ar maidin. I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement this morning. Will he confirm whether we are on target to make the tourism industry here a £1 billion market by 2020?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. Has the Minister met members of the Fire and Rescue Service and members of the Fire Brigades Union? If he has, will he detail the outcome of those meetings?”
“If the proposer of the motion and those who have jumped on the bandwagon really cared about the victim in this tragedy, they would have brought forward a motion that would have commanded unanimous support. That is the best way to send a clear message to those who think that violence should have any part in a democratic society. But that is not what this debate is about. It is not about the victim. It is about trying to get some sort of political advantage from the terrible murder of Paul Quinn. The contributions thus far have been long on rhetoric and short on fact. So, let me state this fact: Sinn Féin has no information about the murder of Paul Quinn. If it had, we would bring it to the authorities. If anyone else in the Chamber has information, let them do likewise.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Assembly is not a court of law, but, of course, it is right that we, as politicians, should give political leadership, standing together in the Assembly and condemning that brutal murder. It is also right that we should ask those with information to come forward and give it to the proper authorities, but what is not right is political parties using the privilege of the Assembly to try to carry out a witch-hunt against Sinn Féin. <BR /> <BR />What is happening today is the very antithesis of democracy. It is about some parties capitalising on the brutal death of a young man and using untruths and innuendo to try to score cheap, political points.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Tá mé ag éirí chun labhairt in aghaidh an rúin seo. I rise to speak against the motion. I am conscious that Paul Quinn's family are in the Public Gallery, and I do not wish to say anything that may increase their sense of hurt or grief. So, from the outset, let me say that I completely condemn the murder of Paul Quinn. Those responsible should be brought before the courts and held accountable for their actions. Anyone who has information about that terrible deed should bring it to the relevant authorities, either an Garda Síochána or the PSNI. If either of those police forces has sufficient evidence, the culprits should be brought to trial. In any democratic society, that is how affairs of the criminal justice system ought to be conducted.”
“Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree with me that he has a duty to the people here in the North not to allow the British Government to simply wash their hands of the issue but to put a proper financial package in place to investigate those killings?”
“I think that both of those sectors, like all the other sectors, should be on a level playing field. Unfortunately, the integrated sector and the Irish-medium sector are far behind the rest and need assistance from the Department to get up to the starting line with the rest. That is why the statutory obligation to encourage and facilitate is there. <BR /> <BR />While I sympathise with the Member on this issue, I am afraid the realpolitik of the situation is that it was never going to get through. He knows that better than I do. On that point, I finish.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I know that he, in particular, is supportive of the Irish-medium sector; I have no argument with that whatsoever. I suppose that, in the real world, we have to face up to the fact that no one is going to get everything they want in this legislation. I understand your fears about raising the ire of the Members opposite when it comes to the Irish language. We have seen the behaviour of some of them in recent times with regard to the Irish language. That is unfortunate, because I know that not all Members opposite share those views. <BR /> <BR />However, it is my understanding that, if we were to allow this to go through, the integrated sector would, effectively, have a privileged position over and above the Irish-medium sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other issue is the statutory obligation that the new authority will have to encourage and facilitate integrated education and Irish-medium education. The Department already has that obligation, and the new authority, through the Minister and the Department, will also have it. I note that the Member said that the obligation has been in place for a long time; however, it was only relatively recently that both sectors tested the legislation that contains the obligation in the courts, when both received favourable outcomes. If there was any ignorance of the legislation in the Department or a tendency to forget about it — certainly not from the Minister, but maybe from his officials — they have been reminded that the statutory obligation exists.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Agreement seems to be breaking out everywhere. I do not have much to add to what my colleague Chris Hazzard said. I do have some sympathy for Trevor Lunn and understand how aggrieved he may feel. I want to make a number of points about the amendments that he and his party tabled. <BR /> <BR />It has been mentioned that, if the amendment on integrated education were to become part of the Bill, it would give integrated education a privileged position. Had the Alliance Party also mentioned Irish-medium education, we may perhaps have taken a different view. I know that the Member is a realist and knows that, whatever decision Sinn Féin took on the issue, the amendment would never have got into this piece of legislation.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer so far. I hear what he has said but does he not agree with me that an increase in wages would actually boost the economy and lift a lot of our people out of poverty? Will he commit to carrying out a full and detailed analysis of the potential impact of the living wage on the local economy?”
“Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for her answer. Will she outline how her Department uses varying financial incentives to entice potential employers to deprived areas?”
“Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Chéad Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the deputy First Minister for that answer. Has the funding for the construction of the college been secured in next year's Budget?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answers. Will he please outline what steps have been taken to ensure smooth transition from five education and library boards to one authority by April 2015?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire, agus cuirim fáilte roimh an ráiteas seo. Does the Minister believe that the Irish-medium sector will continue to grow and flourish across all communities despite the bigotry and racism of some people towards the Irish language and those who use it?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I am not calling the Member's integrity into question. My point simply is this: people sometimes oppose for the sake of opposing, whether it is bad, good or indifferent legislation or a bad, good or indifferent motion. People oppose just for the sake of it to say, "I am the opposition" or "We are the opposition". That is common currency in the House, and that is what gets this place a bad name.”
“It is only fair that people who are so closely involved in the education of our children should have a stake in this and that we should be inclusive rather than exclusive. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that Members will table amendments to the Bill as they see fit. As it stands now, I give it my support.”
“I certainly accept the argument that, if you make a board too big, it can become unwieldy. The model of the Policing Board was mentioned in the debate. It has 19 members and is not particularly unwieldy. It works quite well sometimes. Other times, it does not work so well. I would say that, if there were 13 members on the board, it would be the same. If there were 20 or 30 members on the board, you would have a similar outcome. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not, irrespective of how many are on it. <BR /> <BR />On the issue of whether there should be sectoral bodies involved in it, these are the people who have an interest in the education of our children, and these are the people who have a stake in the education of our children.”
“I certainly think that the integrated and Irish-medium sectors, given the legislative underpinning that requires the Minister to encourage and facilitate those sectors, should have a role in the board. I am not opposed to the voluntary grammar sector having a role either. We should try to be as inclusive as possible so that sectors do not feel that they are being excluded and can all feel that they have a voice in the new set-up.”
“Notwithstanding that, it is clear that, if we do not make the change now and end up with a one-board model rather than the current five, new investment will have to be put into those boards. Those boards are the old jalopy that is chugging along. They have been limping along now for the past number of years. If we do not get this Bill through, they will need significant new investment. Let us be clear: the service delivered by a single board will not differ from the service that is being delivered by the boards as they stand. <BR /> <BR />I accept that there are issues that probably need to be resolved around the make-up of the board and who should sit on it.”
“The groundwork has been done on the Bill, and it will be to the benefit of our young people and children in schools right across the North. That is what we should be thinking of: what is best for our education system and the children in our schools and how we can best administer that education system so that it benefits the children in the schools. <BR /> <BR />A single board will overarch the issue of compatibility with local government boundaries. It is argued that the new body should bring much of the £185 million savings over 10 years that it was calculated would accrue from the ESA Bill. I am always sceptical about figures, particularly when they are projected over such a long period. I have no reason to doubt them; I am just always sceptical.”
“All of us will do that at certain times, but what will get us more bad publicity than anything is politicians in the Chamber bringing forward silly arguments by saying that this has not been thought through or properly scrutinised, when we all know that it has been. Scrutiny is good and opposition is good, but only when it is done properly, and it is not being done properly. I understand that John McCallister has a private Member's Bill on providing an opposition here coming up in the future. Maybe he feels that, on that basis, he has to oppose everything. Maybe the Ulster Unionists think that they have to oppose everything. That is not good politics, and it is certainly not good publicity for the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Robin Newton that this is a good day for the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some people want to set themselves up as an opposition. Fair enough, I have no difficulty with that, but I have difficulty with people introducing, at the very last minute, issues that are not thought out and have never been raised before and that we hear about for the first time here in the Chamber. The issue of three boards rather than five — that is the first I have heard of that issue, which was raised here today. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly gets a lot of bad publicity in the media about politicians bickering. I do not always agree with that, and I think that the media focus on disagreements between various parties. I suppose that is the job that the media have, but there is a difference between bickering and standing on points of principle around certain issues.”
“Remember, what has triggered this is the reform of local government. The five education and library boards were defined by local government boundaries. Legislation is required to ensure that the education administration is compatible with local government reform. If it is not compatible, it could be open to legal challenge. <BR /> <BR />I understand that Members want to ensure that there is proper scrutiny. I agree with that. There should be proper scrutiny of any legislation that goes through, and a Sinn Féin Minister should be subject to as much scrutiny as any other Minister, whether they are from the DUP, the Ulster Unionists, Alliance, the SDLP or anybody. It is right that there is proper scrutiny, but we have scrutinised every aspect of education administration over the past six or seven years. It is time to move on.”
“Although it is disappointing initially, when he thinks about the clapped-out old jalopy he is driving, which is coming up for MOT in five and a half months, maybe a Ford is not such a bad idea after all. That is the situation we are in. We could not get over the line with ESA, but we have been through everything on it. We have been through all the details. Trevor Lunn said today that we had had six or seven years going through every single dot and crossing every t. We have covered it inside out. We could not get agreement, unfortunately. In my view, it would have been a much better, more adventurous option and one that would have served our children in schools much better than the current model. However, the current model is not bad; it is better than what we have.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. It has already been stated that this is a short, simple and straightforward Bill. I intend my contribution to the debate to be in the same vein. <BR /> <BR />It is a bit like the individual who wants to buy himself a Mercedes but, when he looks at his bank statement, realises that he can afford only a Ford.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Given the pressures that the Minister outlined, can he give a rationale for the increasing costs in the administration of the Health and Social Care boards?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. Could the Minister give us an update on the Delivering Social Change programme, which is aimed at improving levels of literacy and numeracy in our schools?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. Will the Minister give the international expert panel time to examine a proposal on shared education that was put forward by Peter Finn from St Mary's University College before he brings forward his own proposals on the review?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Príomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. In a sense, he answered most of my question. However, could he confirm that concerns were raised directly with him by Caitríona Ruane in regard to serious flaws and anomalies in the process prior to your appointment of a new Deputy Chief Constable?”
“Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. Will the Department invite both Employers For Childcare and the ICTU, among others, to engage on their concerns about the new provision?”
“Trevor Lunn is right. We are past the point where we are going to get consensus around this issue. That is why we have a Minister, because, when consensus cannot be reached and when the Minister has all the evidence sitting in front of him, he then can make a decision. That is why he is there. I hope — I am quite sure, in fact — that the Minister will make a decision that is in the best interests of all the children in the education system in Fermanagh.”
“No, I am not giving way any more. I have already given way once. <BR /> <BR />I listened to Tom Elliott say that this has been going on for 10 years now. The debate about all of this has been going on for 10 years in Fermanagh. We all received the email from Rev John McDowell and Mr Alex Baird regarding the motion and the fact that they had not been consulted by the proposers of the motion. The development proposals in question had the unanimous support of both boards of governors in Portora and in Devenish College. It said:”
“Of course, I accept that, but, first, I have to make the point. For instance, when my old primary school closed, which was a school that I had attended, my brother had attended, and my father and all his brothers had attended, it felt like part of the family history had gone. I would have preferred that it had not closed and that it was always there and always part of the family. I can understand why past pupils, in particular, might get passionate about it and why it might cloud their objectivity when it comes to making decisions about this —”
“We need to bring one principle to bear that would be our guiding light in all of this. The thing that we should keep front and centre in everything that we say, particularly when these debates are publicised and may be listened to by students, not just in Collegiate but in Portora and Devenish, is what is best for the education of the children in all the schools concerned. <BR /> <BR />By common consensus here today, Tom Elliott said —”
“In the interests of equality, I will not give way, because you would not give way. <BR /> <BR />As in all these education debates, there may be disagreement about certain issues.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. From the outset, I confess that I do not have a lot of local knowledge about these schools, but I can speak on the general principles. <BR /> <BR />I have noted that Mrs Foster has been very passionate about the issue, although I also noted that I had heard one of the least passionate speeches from Lord Morrow that he has ever given in the House. Maybe that tells us a little about how strongly he feels about it. I see that the Chair of the Committee is shaking his head. Why is he shaking his head? On his own admission, he was not even here.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagraí go dtí seo. What plans have been developed to consult local communities on the socio-economic proposals and benefits that would best suit the needs of those communities?”