Joanne Bunting
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Their input was instrumental in shaping the Bill that the Assembly will shortly be invited to pass. <BR /> <BR />For those affected by the mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and related pathways and practices, the process has taken too long, but we can be pleased that we got there, for the victims' sakes.”
“It is still cruel, disheartening and difficult to fully comprehend. I hope that the experiences of the many women who were affected by those institutions and practices will serve as a challenge to us all.”
“We thank all who participated in the Victims and Survivors Consultation Forum. We know that that has not always been an easy space, but we hope that, today, they can reflect on all their efforts with pride.”
“<BR /> <BR />To victims and survivors considering whether to engage with the redress service, I send an unequivocal message: the scheme exists because your experiences matter, and you need not face the process alone.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, the experience did not end with the institution itself; rather, for the victims and survivors — those women and children — the period has been a thread of pain that has woven its way through their entire lives.”
“It is not an exaggeration to say that today is a momentous day. It is an honour and a privilege for me to move the Final Stage of this important legislation on behalf of the First Minister and the deputy first Minister, junior Minister Reilly and, indeed, the Executive.”
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“As a result of that area of law being so unprofitable, many firms no longer do legal aid work at all. Hence, very few students wish to enter the area of legal aid law because it is not well paid and the hours are extremely antisocial. Moreover, even when there are willing students, most firms do not have the resources to take on apprentices from the Institute of Professional Legal Studies because they cannot afford to pay them. Unless people have a placement, they are not accepted into the Institute. Thus, the future of legal aid representation in Northern Ireland, in the long term, hangs in the balance. <BR /> <BR />Traditionally, the House has not had much sympathy for the profession or some of the expenditure on legal aid. Some of that criticism is justified but not all of it.”
“The Law Society and the Bar Council were very clear about the impact of such delayed payments. The Law Society cited that it can have massive consequences for cash flow, particularly for small businesses, which most solicitors' firms are. Such delays can literally be the difference between firms remaining open or having to close their doors, resulting in unemployment in local areas and further vacant premises on our high streets. That is not just a city problem: it is widely felt in rural communities. Likewise, the evidence that we received from the Bar Council indicated that delays in payment had resulted in numerous barristers leaving the profession entirely, particularly younger women. <BR /> <BR />The problem is compounded because payment rates for work have not been reviewed for decades.”
“Evidence from the Department naturally outlined the existing financial pressures. As part of the discussion on the legal aid issue, officials indicated that the time frame was necessary and, indeed, was being used as a budget management tool. In briefings prior to the restoration of the Assembly, justice spokespersons were advised that, at various times, the Department was having to eye a six-month time frame for payments, again as a result of demand and pressures and for the purposes of managing the budget.”
“I am grateful to colleagues for tabling the motion. I declare that I have an immediate family member who works in the legal profession. <BR /> <BR />I will bring forward a matter relating to the topic that has been raised with members of the Justice Committee. As part of our induction into all things justice, the Committee heard from directorates in the Department and various stakeholders from the justice family. In the course of those sessions, we heard evidence from the Law Society and the Bar Council, which stated that the Department takes between 12 and 16 weeks to make legal aid payments for work that has been completed.”
“That is all the more reason why collective voices taking the case to Treasury and the PM are essential and to be welcomed.”
“— that the PSNI already absorbs 65% of the departmental budget, that every part of the system is struggling and that the Minister has genuinely little room for manoeuvre.”
“As I said when the matter was first exposed, the financial situation of the PSNI is dire and the consequences severe for wider society and public safety. The Chief Constable would be remiss were he not to raise those issues at the highest level of His Majesty's Government. The letter may have come from the permanent secretary, but the question remains as to whether the Minister stands by it. Other than an assertion of dominance, what is to be achieved by a public admonishment of the Chief Constable? <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I am well aware —”
“Everybody here already knows the situation, and no tangible difference has been made. Where else is he to go but straight to the top? The Prime Minister, as a former human rights adviser to the Policing Board, should still be reasonably au fait with the PSNI and its issues. This is not the time for ego, protocol and procedure. It is absolutely the time for collective voices, using every influence we have, to get the moneys that we need to protect our citizens and deal with those who commit crime. <BR /> <BR />Public safety in Northern Ireland should be the utmost priority for all concerned. What is it they say about desperate times calling for desperate measures? One could be forgiven for thinking that a few noses are out of joint because the Chief Constable has more and better connections and access than they do.”
“It is not the first time in recent history that somebody in that role and situation has been reminded of those obligations and to be careful. That brings us to the infamous letter. <BR /> <BR />I do not know Jon Boutcher extremely well, but I have observed him sufficiently to know that the Chief Constable is a savvy political operator not necessarily parochially in Northern Ireland but across the UK. He knows the protocols well. He is an extremely experienced chief. Therefore, one can only assume and conclude that such is his concern and frustration that he raised the issues at the highest level of government and in the circles in which he mixes. Was that the right way to go about it? Perhaps not. Was it the right and necessary thing to do? Absolutely. What option does he have?”
“We have rehearsed in here numerous times that there are many in the justice system undertaking the roles of healthcare professionals in order to alleviate the pressures in that sector and that there are many who should be receiving treatment rather than incarceration. Just how far are we from "Right person, right care"? The Committee for Justice plans to conduct a mini inquiry into the extent to which the justice system is being used to alleviate pressures in healthcare. <BR /> <BR />The Chief Constable is left in the unenviable position of trying to balance his legal and statutory obligations as an accounting officer not to overspend but balance the books with his legal and statutory obligation to keep people safe. With the current budget, it is not possible to do both — something has to give.”
“Northern Ireland is one of the top three safest places to live in the UK but for how long, if this continues?”
“The service is now increasingly engaged in safeguarding and public protection. Let us remember the financial context: unlike any other police service in the UK, it is not permitted to hold reserves or to borrow money and is expected to plan for the long term on a year-to-year budget. Everything has consequences. Even before this unprecedented crisis, the PSNI had been feeling the effects of the losses. It has tried to absorb as much of the cuts as it can, but now the services are starting to change, and our constituents are noticing. Neighbourhood services have been extensively cut, and prior to that, there was already a dearth of detectives, and I should not have to spell out what that means.”
“Neither we nor our neighbours in the rest of the UK and the Republic of Ireland can afford for Northern Ireland to be the weak link in national security or those crimes that cross borders, jurisdictions and county lines. <BR /> <BR />The Chief Constable came before the Justice Committee earlier in the year, and he was very clear that the situation was unsustainable. He advised that, at that time, the police were handling over 500 calls a month on behalf of the Ambulance Service and were in receipt of 42,000 calls a year about concerns for well-being and safety and that the PSNI has the highest sickness levels in the UK, and that is in the context of the budget for policing in the Republic of Ireland increasing by 25%. <BR /> <BR />The police are involved in much more than crime, which has also hugely increased in complexity.”
“Being a Chief Constable of the PSNI has never been a position for the faint of heart, and that is especially the case at present, although not entirely for the traditional reasons. The service is beset by the perfect storm: poor morale, the lowest numbers in its history and an appalling and unsustainable financial position with services repeatedly cut year-on-year. The harsh truth, which we have acknowledged but perhaps not actioned as much as we might, is that the PSNI has faced unsustainable cuts for many years, and now we — not just "it" but "we" — are at a crisis point, because, if it cannot do its job as a result of cuts of an unprecedented and cumulative scale, it does not merely impact the organisation; it has consequences for our communities, our society and indeed the very safety of our citizens and nation.”
“The majority of violence against women is perpetrated by men, and men with problems seldom seek help or talk about the issues that they are facing. What work is being done to engage and educate men on those issues and the things that they face that lead them to such behaviours?”
“We are not responsible for taxes, so I will come to the issues of death, dying and bereavement and their inclusion in the PFG. In the previous mandate, the Assembly unanimously passed a motion on a cross-party basis that death, dying and bereavement would be included, because they are fundamental aspects of life. Is the Executive Office open to having conversations on the inclusion of such an issue?”
“The statement rightly makes many references to life, but, as Benjamin Franklin said:”
“<BR /> <BR />That having been said, we support the Bill.”
“Moreover, I submit that it is an appalling measure to suggest in that particular area, given the glut of reports that promise to tackle the educational underachievement of working-class Protestant boys and the provision of opportunities for them. <BR /> <BR />I have heard Minister Murphy say that it is a matter for the Met. In the short term, it may well be, but, in the bigger, long-term picture, to even consider shutting down the college at a time such as this means that it is an issue for Northern Ireland plc and the rebalancing of jobs and the economy. Again, for the good of Northern Ireland, East Belfast and my constituents, I implore the Department for the Economy to step up and step in to prevent such a short-sighted, discriminatory and ill-conceived scheme, and to bid for the money necessary to secure the campus's future.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, I will move away from the subject of justice and on to an issue of significance in my constituency: the proposed closure of Belfast Met's Castlereagh campus, or Castlereagh college, as it is known locally. I will not rehearse the arguments that I cited in the Adjournment debate that I secured a few weeks ago, except to reiterate the utter folly and lack of vision of such a proposal. I suggest again that it sends a poor message to inward investors. It begs the question of whether Northern Ireland is really open for business. It flies in the face of the 10X strategy and ill serves those whose skills should be developed and valued just as much as an academic route for education.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the aftermath, the Committee will undoubtedly seek to establish what went wrong and how for the Department, the Committee and the House, because there are lessons to learn for all. For now, I will say: when you are in a hole, stop digging. The law has been struck down, and we must weigh up the issues and whether a challenge involving significant amounts of public money is of merit and likely to succeed at a time of essential services being cut to the bone. We are in politics, and none of us likes to be wrong or face criticism, but wisdom and good stewardship are essential. Before there is any doubling down and spending of money that could be used for front-line essential services, the question must be asked, as I asked: is the principle worth it? Is it of greater merit than simply spending money on existing need?”
“<BR /> <BR />We touched on the issue earlier, but I would be remiss were I not to mention press speculation that the Minister is "minded to appeal" Mr Justice Humphreys's recent ruling. On Thursday, the Committee was advised that a decision had not yet been taken, and the Minister confirmed that today in the House. As the matter has been sub judice, we have not discussed it in full. Many current members did not sit as part of the predecessor Committee and are not fully au fait with all the considerations. Speaking on the subject the last time that there was a question for urgent oral answer, I expressed my view that this was a matter of reputational damage for the Minister, her Department and the House. It is now becoming something of a festering wound as we await the decision.”
“On learning from the tackling paramilitarism programme that no single Department even holds a list of all the strategies in Northern Ireland, many of which duplicate each other on cross-cutting subjects, I have repeatedly sought to establish the extent of strategic cooperation and even discussion at ministerial level between the Departments of Health and Justice and at the highest levels in each of those Departments, thus far without success. We have certainly been furnished with lists of ongoing collaborative work, some of which has been under way for a number of years, which is valuable and helpful. However, given the current budgetary status, surely now is the time to refresh the thinking and see what more those Departments can do collaboratively, as they are increasingly interdependent.”
“It does not merely impact on the person in crisis; there is a consequence for those who witness and have to address grave and difficult situations for which they are neither trained nor equipped. Thus far, we have been unable to fully grasp the extent to which people are put through the justice system when it is neither the right nor the best place for them. I am therefore glad that the Committee agreed to my request to inquire into the matter, and I look forward to exploring and understanding the issues more fully. <BR /> <BR />Whilst it is right that there should be cooperation and collaboration, it must be strategic and not reactionary. To do otherwise is not always in the best interests of the individual or the person providing the service.”
“We are strong believers in law and order and a justice system that is blind and fair for all who find themselves dealing with it. We have lobbied to ensure better and more efficient services for those who come into contact with it in any way. DUP members on the Committee are exceedingly and increasingly concerned about the extent to which Justice stakeholders are alleviating the pressures that should, in reality, properly be borne by Health. That is not sustainable and is far from ideal given the nature of some of the issues at hand. We are far removed from the right person, right care scenario, and the fact that justice is becoming a first resort rather than the last should be of concern to all. The repercussions are not to be taken lightly.”
“That may well highlight areas in which greater collaboration may be necessary or, indeed, identify areas of duplication in services. Furthermore, the Committee hopes to hold a concurrent meeting with the Committee for Health in the next parliamentary session after recess in an effort to consider areas of collaborative working. Hopefully, we will be in a position to update the Assembly on that work in due course. <BR /> <BR />The £35 million in additional funds that was announced yesterday is undoubtedly welcome, but, as a result of timing, the Committee has yet to learn where and how it will be allocated and prioritised. <BR /> <BR />From the DUP's perspective, the worries and pressures raised by stakeholders in the sector with regard to the impact on essential services are shared by the Democratic Unionist Party.”
“That is unfair on already traumatised complainants, and we were advised that workloads for PPS staff have become intolerable. <BR /> <BR />As I said at the beginning, it is clear that financial constraints are having a massive effect on justice-sector organisations. Department of Justice officials painted a pretty bleak picture, based on the budget allocations. <BR /> <BR />The Committee does not, however, see its role as simply being to hold evidence sessions and then come to the Chamber to cheerlead on behalf of the Department. We are determined to consider ways in which the system and service delivery can be improved. That is why, for example, the Committee has commissioned the Assembly's Research and Information Service (RaISe) to conduct a piece of research into the interaction between mental health services and the justice sector.”
“In an evidence session with the Probation Board for Northern Ireland (PBNI), it was highlighted to us how important a partner for the board the community and voluntary sector is. It was stated, however, that, owing to the lack of a multi-year budget, organisations in that sector reach what was described as a "cliff edge" every six months. <BR /> <BR />The lack of multi-year budgets was another key theme during various evidence sessions. We recently heard from the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) that its budget has not been increased in line with the increased demand for its services. For example, we were told that the impact of new legislation to tackle coercive and controlling behaviour, stalking and non-fatal strangulation has, without an increase in funding, led to more delays in the system.”
“<BR /> <BR />When briefing the Committee, the Lady Chief Justice, Dame Siobhan Keegan, in reference to the Department's budget, stated:”
“Again, it is deeply concerning that victims of crime are suffering because of the financial situation. <BR /> <BR />Likewise, during an evidence session with the Law Society and the Bar of Northern Ireland, the Committee was told that slowing down the payment of legal aid fees as a budget management tool has forced professionals to leave the Bar or firms to shift from doing legal aid work. Indeed, it may result in the closure of firms. In no other area of work would a 12- to 16-week payment delay be acceptable for work that is sometimes carried out up to a year previously. We were informed that that disproportionately affects younger professionals and women and that it could threaten access to justice for many across Northern Ireland.”
“That is most concerning, especially given the fact that the prison population continues to increase at the same time, as there are ongoing issues with prison officer numbers. As I have said in previous financial debates, the current staffing levels are for a prison population of 1,450 prisoners, yet there are more than 1,900 people in custody at present, and that number continues to increase. <BR /> <BR />It is a similar story for victims of crime. During an evidence session with the Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime, the Committee was told:”
“<BR /> <BR />During an evidence session with Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI), the Committee was told that the CJINI budget has decreased by almost 10% in 10 years and:”
“Such sentiments echo what the Committee has been told in various evidence sessions with justice-sector stakeholders. We have heard many times, for example, that front-line police officers spend a great deal of time, sometimes entire shifts, dealing with people who have mental health issues. There is no doubt that such people would be much better served by mental health professionals. For various reasons, however, it is often the police who are called. <BR /> <BR />Indeed, we were advised by the Chief Constable that the PSNI is undertaking 500 ambulance calls a month. This is at a time when police officer numbers are at an all-time low of under 6,400, when the recommended number in the New Decade, New Approach agreement is 7,500. The current numbers are clearly unsustainable.”
“At the same briefing, a senior departmental official informed the Committee that, under the current Budget settlement, the Department will be facing pressures of £349 million, which, we were told:”
“That message was reinforced to us by the permanent secretary during the briefing on 13 June. He stated:”
“<BR /> <BR />On 13 June, the Committee received an oral briefing from departmental officials on budget 2024-25. During that briefing, the Committee was informed that the Executive had around £1 billion to put towards pressures of £3 billion. We were told that the Department of Justice had been allocated 9·9% of the available amount, despite its pressures representing 14% of the pressures across the block. That is of concern, especially because, as I said in previous financial debates and as is evident from the Bill, the vast majority of the Department's budget is demand-led. It is taken up by the PSNI, the Prison Service, the Courts and Tribunals Service and through legal aid spend. As a result, there is little, if any, scope to reduce spend without impacting severely on the delivery of vital services.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak as Chairperson of the Committee for Justice, and I declare that a member of my immediate family works in the legal profession. <BR /> <BR />The permanent secretary of the Department of Justice, Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland, the Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime, the Law Society, the Bar of Northern Ireland, the Lady Chief Justice, the Probation Board, the Chief Constable of the PSNI, the Courts and Tribunals Service and the Public Prosecution Service are just some of the people and organisations from whom the Committee for Justice has heard since the return of the Assembly. One common theme was apparent throughout the evidence sessions: budgetary constraints are having a massive impact on the ability of justice sector organisations to deliver vital, essential services.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying her position. Before there is any doubling down and spending of public money that could be put towards essential front-line services, will the Minister outline what she will consider when weighing up her decision? Will she consider whether the principle is worth it, the likelihood of her being successful and whether any such challenge is of greater merit than the need that exists in her Department?”
“Thank you, Minister. This follows a similar debacle involving prison officers' pensions, which is rumbling on. Clearly, something is going badly awry if those pensions are being miscalculated to that extent and errors have not been noticed for as long as 16 years. I am aware that there is also DOJ involvement. Will the Minister undertake a review to establish what is going on, which has led to such grave errors with public funds and to considerable distress for all involved?”
“As the cyberworld and that of crypto expands, so must the instruments and powers to detect and address criminality within that arena. We support the rule.”
“On behalf of the Committee for Justice, therefore, I support the motion before the House. <BR /> <BR />I turn now to the views of the Democratic Unionist Party. Our position is reflected in that of the Committee. Where assets, including crypto assets, have potentially been acquired through crime, it is right that they are seized until such times as that is determined or otherwise, and that any ill-gotten gains are forfeited. That said, where assets are seized, investigation should be progressed as quickly as possible so that there is no reason for the money to be retained, and it should also be returned without delay. Of course, crime should not pay, and any sanction should serve as a deterrent. Hitting such criminals in their pockets is certainly a worthy and valuable part of that.”
“Furthermore, the Committee was notified that codes of practice equivalent to those that are being introduced through the rule are in place in England, Scotland and Wales and that, because the parent legislation applies UK-wide in order to ensure that there is consistency of approach and language across jurisdictions, the Department closely followed the codes for England and Wales, with appropriate adaptations. <BR /> <BR />At that same meeting of 30 May, the Committee for Justice formally agreed to recommend that the rule be approved by the Assembly, subject to the report from the Examiner of Statutory Rules (ESR). Subsequently, the Examiner reported on the rule in her report, which was published on 4 June 2024, and raised no concerns regarding its technical aspects.”
“The rule would also bring crypto assets within the scope of civil forfeiture powers, as outlined in Part 5 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and would ensure that forfeiture powers were accompanied by supplementary investigative powers, as outlined in Part 8 of the 2002 Act, similar to investigatory powers that exist to support the forfeiture of cash, listed assets and funds in certain accounts. <BR /> <BR />The Committee was informed that a public consultation on the changes was conducted between February and April 2024 and that only one response, which did not contain substantive comments, was received.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak briefly on the motion as Chair of the Committee for Justice and declare that I have an immediate family member who works in the legal profession. <BR /> <BR />The Committee was first alerted to the Department's intention to propose the rule at its meeting on 16 May and raised no issues with its so doing. The Committee then considered the draft statutory rule (SR) at its meeting on 30 May. We were advised that the reforms that would be made as a result of the rule would enable officers to seize crypto assets and other property during an investigation. It would also enable officers to seize crypto asset-related items and enable the courts to better enforce unpaid confiscation orders against a defendant's crypto assets.”
“The Minister will be aware of Four G, which conducts a similar service in the Dundonald area for a number of boys and girls who fall into the category. Minister, there is a dearth of provision once special educational needs pupils hit 18. Will those young people be a priority for your Department, and what action will you take to demonstrate that they are indeed a priority and will not be left by the wayside once they leave school?”
“I thank the First Minister for that. Will she, the deputy First Minister and the Economy Minister undertake to take action? Will she outline the action that she will take to secure the integrity of the business?”
“Will the Minister confirm that all directors and senior officials are currently in place and at work, even if the ombudsman herself is not?”
“The Minister will be aware that not everybody is willing to engage with the new bodies and that some innocent victims and their families have trust issues with the new arrangements. What reassurance can she give to those families that they and their cases will not be left behind?”
“However, we acknowledge that the actuary is not permitted to take into account such factors when striking the rate. <BR /> <BR />The key to the entire subject area is to ensure that claimants, over the course of their lifetime or the term of their claim, receive as close to 100% as possible — no more and no less. To that end, we agreed to support the rule. That was after we had raised questions and recorded our concerns with the Department and received the comprehensive advice of the Department and the Government Actuary, who also informed us that, through that process, Northern Ireland would likely be much more closely aligned with Scotland on review timings and, indeed, the rate, as stipulated in the Hansard report of the evidence session. As a result of all that, we are content to support the rule.”
“At its meeting last Thursday, the Committee formally and unanimously agreed to recommend that the rule be approved by the Assembly. I therefore support the motion on behalf of the Committee for Justice. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak in my capacity as an individual MLA. The position of the Democratic Unionist Party is reflected in the position of the Committee. We were conscious of the views of the respondents, defendants, claimants and stakeholders, and we sought to reassure ourselves about the factors under consideration around the issue as much as possible, given its technical nature. We were pleased to receive answers to our queries around CPI+ but remain concerned about the potential impact on insurance premiums for citizens and public bodies.”