Joanne Bunting
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Their input was instrumental in shaping the Bill that the Assembly will shortly be invited to pass. <BR /> <BR />For those affected by the mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and related pathways and practices, the process has taken too long, but we can be pleased that we got there, for the victims' sakes.”
“It is still cruel, disheartening and difficult to fully comprehend. I hope that the experiences of the many women who were affected by those institutions and practices will serve as a challenge to us all.”
“We thank all who participated in the Victims and Survivors Consultation Forum. We know that that has not always been an easy space, but we hope that, today, they can reflect on all their efforts with pride.”
“<BR /> <BR />To victims and survivors considering whether to engage with the redress service, I send an unequivocal message: the scheme exists because your experiences matter, and you need not face the process alone.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, the experience did not end with the institution itself; rather, for the victims and survivors — those women and children — the period has been a thread of pain that has woven its way through their entire lives.”
“It is not an exaggeration to say that today is a momentous day. It is an honour and a privilege for me to move the Final Stage of this important legislation on behalf of the First Minister and the deputy first Minister, junior Minister Reilly and, indeed, the Executive.”
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“Additional text indicates that his bladder was riddled with ulcers and could stretch to only 30 millilitres. Normal capacity is between 300 millilitres and 600 millilitres. At 25, Jack was periodically wearing nappies. <BR /> <BR />Members can see just how horrific the consequences can be, but, as with all bad things, the problem is that nobody ever thinks that it will happen to them or to their child. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak about spiking, which is the term used when individuals are unknowingly and maliciously drugged. It is a particularly disturbing crime that often leads to serious physical and emotional harm, because victims are then vulnerable to horrendous secondary offences, often sexual, and left with little clear memory of what exactly happened. Young women are disproportionately affected by spiking.”
“This is the last one, from a guy called Jack Curran:”
“The facts are these: it is an extremely dangerous drug that can lead to severe health problems, including irreparable damage to the bladder, liver and kidneys. <BR /> <BR />I want to give some insight into the health impacts from those who have found themselves profoundly impacted by the aftermath of ketamine. I apologise that some of the descriptions are graphic and disturbing. They are direct quotes from sufferers, all in England. Matt said:”
“The problem is — I will explore this in more detail later — that it has a false reputation as a safe drug with limited potential for overdose or dependence and few side effects. That is just not true. Readily available and comparatively inexpensive, it has recently been reported as the fourth most popular recreational and sixth most commonly used drug in the UK. <BR /> <BR />Far from the perceptions of ketamine as a safe drug, we are advised that chronic use can lead to cognitive impairments, memory issues and psychological disturbances. The long-term impacts on the human body, however, are not yet fully known. What we know is that the health impacts of its abuse on those who survive can be devastating and have far-reaching effects. Ketamine use has led to serious and irreversible consequences for some.”
“It was developed as an anaesthetic for medical and veterinary use but has since found a new identity and is sought after by recreational drug users because of its dissociative effects. At about £20 per gram, ketamine is cheaper than other illegal drugs such as cocaine and MDMA, and that contributes to its widespread use. In recent years, the British Isles have witnessed a significant rise in ketamine use, especially among young people. Indeed, the Home Office has said that the illegal use of ketamine has reached record levels, citing the estimate that 269,000 people aged between 16 and 59 reported using ketamine in the year ending March 2024. <BR /> <BR />The effects of ketamine are apparently short-lived, so people quickly develop a tolerance, which results in them taking increased doses with greater frequency to get the same high.”
“She has fought with unwavering dignity and determination, seeking not only justice for her daughter but to protect other families from the same tragedy. No family should experience that heartache and bury their child. Sandra has called for a reassessment of the risks posed by ketamine, a substance that has, in recent years, reached record levels of prevalence. From such a tragedy, however, has come something worthwhile. Education Minister Paul Givan met Sandra, and, as of tomorrow, a production that has been touring schools in Northern Ireland to educate our young people on the severe dangers of drugs will have reached over 3,500 young people across 24 schools. <BR /> <BR />What exactly is ketamine?”
“Parents think that it will never happen to their child, that their child is sensible — but so was Jeni. Sandra reiterated that what happened to Jeni was so far removed from who she was and how she was raised. She was not a party kid; her nose was always in a book. She had a close circle of friends, and they socialised in one another's homes. All that changed within hours of her arrival at university, when she met her new flatmates and Kavir Kalliecharan, who was later charged with possessing drugs but not supplying them. Neither he nor Jeni's flatmates sought help; they just left her lying there that night. He was able to go on with his life: Jeni's was over. <BR /> <BR />Sandra's campaign began following Jeni's heartbreaking death. Her bravery in the face of unimaginable grief has been an inspiration.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is an important subject, and, from the outset, I commend the tireless campaign of Sandra Larmour, whose advocacy, born from a profound and tragic loss, has illuminated the urgent need for increased awareness and a reclassification of ketamine. Jeni Larmour from Newtownhamilton was 18 and on her first day at Newcastle University when, in October 2020, she lost her life to ketamine and alcohol. I have spoken to Sandra, and she has told me that Jeni was a really bright, strong, switched-on, ambitious girl with her whole life ahead of her.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a grave step for the Minister to consider alternative models for the delivery of services that the Bar provides. Will she elaborate a bit more on what those models might be, how long they might take to implement and what the potential risks with that approach are?”
“In fact, the danger lies in the rewriting of history; in the glossing over of the utter brutality and senselessness; in the romanticisation of terror campaigns and murder; and in new generations being indoctrinated by myths and falsehoods, being angered by a history that is not based on truth and growing up heroising psychopathic killers. New generations are justifying and glorifying what happened rather than seeing it for the barbarity that it was. <BR /> <BR />At this stage, all these years on and with the criminal justice route narrowing, there is little to be lost from scoping, but it certainly should not be protracted. The law-abiding people of Northern Ireland have had enough.”
“No, I will not. <BR /> <BR />How much do she and her party expect the police to do? How often do we hear the Justice Minister use the operational independence of the police to deflect Members' questions in the Chamber? On this occasion, however, the Alliance Party is content to ignore the clear operational assessment by the PSNI that it would be impossible to arrest everyone involved in paramilitarism and criminality and bring an end to that scourge solely through those means. <BR /> <BR />The problem for us all is this: wishing does not make it so. Unpalatable as all of it is to many of us, something needs to change. Action is required, or we will trundle on with the same old, same old.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also should not gloss over the fact that the IRC recommendation is over three years old. The Government have not rushed into progressing the proposal. The criminal justice response, however, has not yet been used to maximum effect in the intervening period. Little has been done by the Minister of Justice since the restoration of the institutions to advocate for additional resources for policing, additional police officers and the additional wherewithal to take on paramilitaries. Even then, it came only after the Chief Constable wrote to Downing Street. The PSNI has dangerously low officer numbers — the lowest in history — fewer neighbourhood officers, fewer detectives and fewer specialist search teams. How much —?”
“It is ironic, however, that those who normalised the erosion of the principles of lawfulness and justice by supporting terrorist prisoner releases now react with incredulity at the prospect of a fresh process of engagement with paramilitary groups. Their hypocrisy and double standards know no bounds, it would seem. We in the DUP did not support the release of prisoners. We do not support two-year sentences as a result of the Belfast Agreement. Indeed, we have been vocal about all of that for years, because we knew the damage that it would cause, the harm that it would do to the innocent victims and communities and the impact that it would have on people's confidence in the justice system, so the pearl-clutching from some in the House is difficult to listen to.”
“We agree that any future process of engagement must contain inbuilt safeguards against such incentives, as well as against abuse and exploitation. No public body or publicly funded organisation should act in any way that sustains or assists criminal activities, nor should people be afforded status or credibility through any such processes. <BR /> <BR />The notion from the IRC is not new. Previous reports placed great emphasis on the fact that a process of political engagement was needed to bring the Troubles to an end and that discussion with those previously involved in violence and criminality was central to that.”
“Our view remains that people left their cause behind many moons ago and moved into the territory of criminality and parasitism. A number of those groups feed off their own communities, keep them down, peddle drugs to them and use names of and links to proscribed organisations to settle scores and exercise influence and control. We also know that there are those who want to and are trying to move on. They aim to keep others, including young people, away from those organisations. Without question, those people should be supported in their endeavours. <BR /> <BR />That said, we recognise the need for caution and safeguards to avoid transition rewarding or being seen to reward paramilitaries. The UUP amendment embodies those fears about sentencing, prisoner release and financial incentives.”
“I declare that I am a member of the political advisory group to the Executive programme on paramilitarism and organised crime (EPPOC). I commend the sterling work that is done through EPPOC's projects, as well as its knowledge, statistical evidence gathering and world-leading approach to trauma-informed practice, all of which, hopefully, will continue not just to bear fruit for affected communities but to keep young people away from everything and everybody that can harm them and their chances and opportunities in life. <BR /> <BR />We in the DUP are clear that there was never any justification for paramilitarism or violence. There was always an alternative. The time when paramilitaries should have gone away is long past.”
“— people being priced out of being able to visit the dentist.”
“The Minister mentioned demand for private practice, but there is an impact on that demand, because people cannot register for NHS services. What can the Minister do to make it easier for people to find out which local dentists accept new NHS patients, without having to ring round up to 10 practices to find out what is available in their area? It is increasingly difficult. It is a matter of import, given that NHS dentistry is becoming extinct, with —”
“I am grateful to the Minister for his answer. He will be aware that, not long ago, Dundonald High School received adverse publicity about its condition. He mentioned that my colleague David Brooks and I are eager for him to see for himself just how much the school does with very little. I fully understand the Minister's budgetary pressures. What reassurance can he give to parents of existing pupils that Dundonald High School remains on his radar and to those looking at schools that it is certainly worth considering, as it is a good school?”
“After a long and meaningful campaign for its inclusion, that is extremely welcome. The issue is significant and important for all in our society, particularly in these times of complex grief and because death and bereavement come to us all. While it is not a KPI, I look forward to working with APG members and stakeholders, as well as with Ministers, to see how we can move towards the destigmatisation of the subject and bring the pledges to bear practically for the benefit of our citizens.”
“The bid aimed to bring forward an integrated package of measures and approaches to enhance protections and transform outcomes that would have contributed significantly to the achievement of the PFG priority. <BR /> <BR />In my capacity as chairman of the all-party group (APG) on terminal illness, I am grateful to see the Executive's commitment to all stages of life and, in particular, the mention in the PFG of their cross-departmental commitment to providing better:”
“An important element of that will be the domestic and sexual abuse strategy, which is jointly led by the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Health. The PFG also aims to introduce better access and support for victims and survivors in the criminal justice system and more ways to hold perpetrators to account, thus preventing further harm and building confidence in the justice system. Given the inclusion of a priority to end violence against women and girls in the PFG and its clear relevance to the justice sector, it is somewhat disappointing that the Department's transformation bid for reducing harm from domestic and sexual abuse and violence against women and girls has not been progressed.”
“<BR /> <BR />Specific reference is made to the justice system in the reform and transformation priority, with attention drawn to the length of time taken for a case to progress through the criminal justice system; the increase in the prison population; and, as I have mentioned, the number of police officers being at an all-time low. Three of the Department's transformation bids are still under consideration by the interim public-sector transformation board. They are clearly linked to the specific outcomes mentioned in the PFG. The success of those transformation bids will be critical to reforming practices and introducing initiatives aimed at making improvements on those issues. <BR /> <BR />Justice will also be a key partner in the delivery of the ending violence against women and girls priority.”
“<BR /> <BR />The PFG includes a commitment to work collectively to develop a cross-governmental strategy to reduce offending and reoffending. The need for collaborative working has been recognised by the current Committee and its predecessors. The Probation Board recently pointed out, for example, that many of the factors that contribute to reducing reoffending are outside the scope of the justice system, particularly with regard to accommodation, drug and alcohol addiction treatment and mental health support systems. A cross-departmental approach to health and social care issues could prevent individuals from offending in the first place or provide better outcomes for those who enter the justice system. The inclusion of that aim in the PFG is, therefore, to be welcomed, and the Committee will be keen to monitor progress in that regard.”
“<BR /> <BR />Adequate resourcing will be essential to delivering on the proposed actions within the priority. Members will be aware that the PSNI currently has 6,300 officers — the lowest number in its history. The Chief Constable has advised of his concern that policing was not given more focus in the draft PFG. The Committee was pleased to note that the business case to increase the number of officers and staff over a three-year period was recently approved by the Department and submitted to the Minister of Finance. It is expected to cost £206 million over five years. It is important that it is fully funded and that the PSNI is provided with the resources that it needs to keep our community safe. We must also bear in mind the time that it will take to get the service back to adequate numbers of police officers.”
“That priority encompasses a range of important actions, including the embedding of trauma-informed, responsive systems; a speeding up justice programme; digital transformation across criminal justice organisations; the development of a cross-governmental strategy to reduce offending and reoffending; and the implementation of the strategic framework for youth justice. <BR /> <BR />The PFG recognises the importance of ensuring adequate resources within justice agencies to respond to and deal with crime. That includes increasing the number of police officers; having the necessary prosecution resources and scope in the courts and Probation Board to process cases; and having the capacity in prisons to hold people safely and support rehabilitation.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak as Chairman of the Committee for Justice on the Programme for Government. I declare that I have an immediate family member who works in the legal profession. <BR /> <BR />The Committee took oral evidence from Department of Justice officials on the draft PFG on 10 October last year. While the Department will be required to work towards the achievement of a number of the priorities, it will, obviously, play a major role in leading the safer communities priority.”
“My question was specifically on the Connswater river.”
“I thank the Minister for the answer. The same programme highlighted the fact that some of the matter, when it overflows, flows into the Connswater river. The Minister will be aware that that is where the Hollow is and that events are held there and children play there. The Minister said that tests are held frequently, but he did not give us any indication of how frequently. Will the Minister elaborate on the frequency of testing? What assurances can he give the people of east Belfast that the area and rivers in which their children play are safe?”
“I want to stick with the issue of domestic abuse a bit more generally, if I may. Minister, what is being done to support male victims of domestic abuse and coercive control and encourage them to come forward? Not to diminish in any shape or form violence against women and girls, I am concerned that men and boys could fall behind.”
“I am nothing short of thrilled, in all honesty, to see the Bill going through the Assembly. It will make a genuine, significant and tangible difference to so many people. That should be what we in this place are all about. Many can talk about isolation, but the Minister has walked the walk. I am delighted and excited for the difference that the Bill will make. I congratulate the Minister, I welcome the Bill and I commend it to the House.”
“I did not know what to do. I just hugged him, because I, too, was embarrassed that I could not understand everything. We were struggling so much to make ourselves understood, despite all our efforts. <BR /> <BR />That gracious congregation taught me so much about the extent of the social isolation that people in our deaf community perpetually face for their entire lives. Swathes of our people are struggling with complex, huge and overwhelming social isolation, cut off and excluded from the rest of us and from many aspects of life and society because their language and communication are different. For them, sign language is not a luxury; it is a necessity. The Bill will be a game changer at long last. <BR /> <BR />The DUP takes support for our deaf community extremely seriously.”
“You might imagine that, if there were communication issues, writing or texting could overcome them, but that is not necessarily always the case. <BR /> <BR />When I was out canvassing at one stage, I happened to come upon a man whom I had met in the church to which I referred earlier. We both smiled and tried to communicate as best we could. I was able to understand that his wife was seriously ill. I was eager to help and to offer him our services in any way to try to secure her whatever she needed. We used our phones and paper and pen, but it was very difficult for us both. It was already a hard conversation for him, as he was emotional, but he was frustrated, embarrassed and, ultimately, resigned to the difficulty, because he had been in that situation so often in the past with a hearing person. In the end, he just shrugged.”
“When a child in a room goes silent, we know to check what is going on with them, what is happening and what they are up to. People in our deaf community do not share those simple luxuries. They have to be able to see what is happening all the time and be able to intervene directly and physically, because they cannot hear the warning signs and nor, often, can their children. That is considerable pressure in itself, but imagine everyday experiences of shopping, medical appointments and just general interaction. None of that is ever straightforward or easy. Imagine the huge effort required at all times and how draining that must be. Then add into the mix, as those churchgoers taught me, the fact that the deaf community writes and texts differently from those who can hear.”
“When I first became an MLA, in 2016, I was warmly welcomed into the Deaf Christian Fellowship in east Belfast, whose congregation comes from across Northern Ireland. Those people taught me so much about the issues facing our deaf community that I had just not considered and that the rest of us who can hear take for granted. They were things that we never think about but that they always have to think about, such as the challenges that face them when raising their children and keeping them safe. When we see a toddler heading towards danger, the rest of us can use our voices to stop them in their tracks. We can call out, and they will stop. That is not the case with a deaf child: there has to be a physical and/or visual intervention every time.”
“First, I apologise that I was not in my place at the beginning of the debate. I had other responsibilities in the House. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I want to say that I am immensely grateful to the Minister for introducing this much-needed Bill, which will most certainly change lives and change the quality of lives. I had not intended to speak in the debate and will do so only briefly. I have campaigned for this for a long time because of my experience with the deaf community. Many, many years ago, as a young teenager, I attended a basic sign language class at Dundonald Elim church that I loved. I thoroughly enjoyed it and can remember a couple of words, but, to my shame, no more than a couple.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for that. I appreciate that it was only yesterday, and I have no intention of bouncing him. For people who have already been diagnosed with the condition, what steps will the Minister take to ensure consistency across the trusts in the timing of appropriate treatment and appointments?”
“The Committee expects there to be ongoing engagement and that it will be kept fully informed to help ensure that the Department's budget is maximised and key priority areas are funded to deliver effective outcomes right across the justice sector.”
“The Committee understands from the Department and the Committee for Finance that the level of in-year funding is expected to be much less in 2025-26 than it was in the current financial year, so the likelihood of in-year allocations to manage pressures will be significantly diminished. Therefore, while the additional funding allocation of £132·3 million above the baseline is to be welcomed, the position for the Department going into the new financial year will still be extremely challenging. Departmental officials advised that business areas are considering what actions are required to live within their allocation and that difficult decisions will have to be taken.”
“A consultation is ongoing on a number of increases that were recommended by His Honour Tom Burgess in his review of criminal legal aid. Members will be aware that criminal barristers have withdrawn services for certain categories of criminal case. It is imperative, therefore, that efforts continue to be made to resolve the issues and that the interim uplift to legal aid is implemented at the earliest opportunity to prevent any further action, which, as I have said, can impact on the most vulnerable citizens in our society. <BR /> <BR />Those are two new pressures, but they are far from the only pressures that will be faced by the Department of Justice or its agencies in the next financial year.”
“<BR /> <BR />Committee members voiced concerns about the impact that the increase in employers' National Insurance contributions will have on the justice sector and, in particular, on the community and voluntary sector organisations that carry out important work on behalf of or in partnership with statutory agencies. Members were pleased that officials confirmed in oral evidence to the Committee that, while the Department is not aware of what the actual costs may be, individual areas are alert to the issue and will engage directly with the community and voluntary organisations to deal with the pressures on a case-by-case basis. <BR /> <BR />I mentioned that additional costs from an increase in legal aid fees are also anticipated in the coming year.”
“The Department has received an additional general allocation of £132·3 million, as well as additional security funding and funding for judicial salaries, reducing those stabilisation pressures to around £35 million. However, new pressures have since emerged, which means that the Department will go into the new financial year with a shortfall of some £60 million. The new pressures include increased employers' National Insurance contributions, revised Northern Ireland Civil Service pay award assumptions and the anticipated cost of an increase in legal aid fees.”
“At this stage, it is not clear when those costs will crystallise. The Department advised, however, that those exceptional pressures cannot be managed within its budget allocation and informed the Committee that the then Finance Minister had indicated her intention to explore the potential for making a reserve claim from His Majesty's Treasury in respect of those pressures. <BR /> <BR />I will briefly look forward. Aside from the exceptional pressures of £227 million, which will be carried into the coming year, the Department reported non-ring-fenced resource DEL stabilisation pressures of £206·8 million against its opening baseline budget of £1,218 billion.”
“The Committee was pleased to find that three of the Department's transformation programmes have progressed to the final stage in the process. Those important projects relate to electronic tagging, speeding up and transforming the justice system and reducing offending and the prison population. The Department indicated that those programmes will cost around £53 million over a five-year period, so additional funding from the transformation fund will be very welcome, but much more remains to be done. <BR /> <BR />The bids submitted by the Department as part of the in-year monitoring process included what the Department advised are "exceptional pressures" of £227 million relating to holiday pay, McCloud injury to feelings and the PSNI data breach. No funding was allocated to those pressures.”
“Members of the House will know that New Decade, New Approach set a target of 7,500 officers. A recruitment campaign began on 22 January this year, which is welcome and long overdue, but, at this stage, that is just about replacing officers. The Committee was informed that the PSNI has developed a business case to increase the number of officers to 7,000 over the next three years. That will, of course, require significant financial investment and involve recurring costs in coming years. It will also be a considerable period before those who graduate from police college are on the beat.”
“While the in-year funding has helped to alleviate policing pressures, we must not ignore the fact that the number of police officers has fallen to an all-time low of 6,300 — a position described by the Chief Constable as extremely concerning.”
“Evidence that we have received indicates that that makes legal aid work less attractive to members of the profession and those entering it, which will ultimately impact on the ability of people, some of whom are among the most vulnerable, to access justice. Members will be aware that a judgement was delivered recently in a case by the Bar of Northern Ireland and the Law Society of Northern Ireland on the practice of delaying payments for legally aided work, and I understand that the Department is working through the implications of that judgement. Nonetheless, the Committee is pleased to note that the average time taken to make such payments has decreased over recent months. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the PSNI.”
“That was split across a number of directorates and agencies and included allocations of £7·4 million to the Legal Services Agency and £23 million to the PSNI. As part of the October monitoring round, a further £5·2 million was allocated to the Legal Services Agency and almost £36 million was allocated to the PSNI. While all business areas will have benefited from the extra funding provided to them in year, it was particularly welcome in both those areas. <BR /> <BR />Legal aid is essential in ensuring that citizens are able to access justice. It is not acceptable that delaying legal aid payments to practitioners has been used by the Department as a budget-management tool.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department also submitted capital bids of £122 million for the 2024-25 year and received an allocation of £92 million — a shortfall of 25% of what was required for inescapable and high-priority projects. As Members will know, the Department of Justice's budget is mostly demand-led, with the majority taken up by the Police Service, the Courts and Tribunals Service, prisons and legal aid spend. Those demands show no signs of abating, with all areas across the justice system reporting pressures in year. <BR /> <BR />The Department submitted non-ring-fenced resource bids totalling £349·2 million as part of the June monitoring round and received a general allocation of £35·02 million.”
“The Department's share of the block grant has fallen from just under 11% in 2011-12 to around 8% currently. That has undoubtedly contributed to pressures being felt across all areas of the justice system. <BR /> <BR />The Department's opening budget for 2024-25 was £1,262 million, which included £31·2 million of additional security funding and £12·8 million of funding for the tackling paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime programme. That left an opening non-ring-fenced resource allocation of £1,218·4 million. Against that opening baseline, the Department initially reported pressures of £446 million for 2024-25. The Department received £95 million of the £1 billion available to the Executive, which reduced those pressures to around £350 million.”