Roy Beggs
East Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I declare an interest as owner of 25 acres of agricultural land; also, my parents run a small agricultural business. <BR /> <BR />There is a shortage of fertiliser, and the Minister has referred to the present difficulties in Ukraine that are contributing to that. That shortage exists even at the exorbitant cost of £1,000 per ton.”
“of public bodies in Northern Ireland. That is vital in order to reassure the public that money is being spent appropriately. That is to be done independently.”
“There has been a very close working relationship and a close partnership. Where issues needed highlighted and where the Assembly, through its scrutiny mechanisms, needed to dig deeper to get better value and better accountability, that occurred.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also want to reflect on the close working relationship that there has been between the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Northern Ireland Audit Office, which the C&AG oversees and manages, and the Assembly, particularly the Public Accounts Committee.”
“As we consider this motion to nominate a new Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland, it is important that we reflect on the importance that the role has in any democracy. The C&AG in Northern Ireland is the head of the Northern Ireland Audit Office.”
“P&O has brutally cast its workforce aside in a Dickensian fashion. There was no consultation or notice, and the company delivered a live message by video link. Will the Minister clarify whether the P&O redundancy announcement is covered by maritime law, Northern Ireland employment law or GB employment law?”
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“I will be seeking advice from a lawyer. It was a draftsman who ultimately came up with the wording. Ultimately, a court or judge would finalise it. I suggest that, if there had not been any transaction in obtaining the bits and pieces by a tradesman, he would not be trading. If he had the items and some form of reward was given in exchange, I would have thought that that would be some form of transaction. I accept that it is certainly an area that needs to be clarified. It would be important that those working under it understand the rules. <BR /> <BR />The cost of a licence will be determined by the amount of bureaucracy that we build into the system. One of the issues that I have highlighted is this: will we require two sets of civil servants to examine this legislation as it goes through?”
“I thank all the Members who contributed to this discussion and have indicated their support for the principles of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Pam Cameron suggested an Ad Hoc Committee or joint Committee to deal with it. I understand that the Business Committee will decide what the future model will be, assuming that we continue through this process. It appears that we will today. I hope that Members will, ultimately, vote for it. <BR /> <BR />Cathal Boylan wanted to know about ensuring that we would not over-regulate the industry. He wanted to look at costs that would flow from it. That has been quite central to my thinking. It is for that reason that I put in some weight exemptions to enable cashless transactions to occur up to a certain level. He asked about what would happen to the plumber and the electrician.”
“In bringing the Bill forward, I have attempted to follow those principles. <BR /> <BR />I hope that Members agree that there is a need for the legislation and that I have included some protection to minimise bureaucracy. I hope that Members will support me and join me on a journey to scrutinise the legislation to ensure that we can make it the best legislation possible to protect our community, our homes and our businesses against the future risk of metal theft so that all will be able to live in Northern Ireland without the unwanted interference of criminals who disrupt lives and businesses. I ask for Members' support.”
“When I read that, it was clear to me that the PSNI could see the benefits of a mandatory scheme in helping to drive down crime. That has certainly been the experience in England and Wales. <BR /> <BR />I wish to ensure that we do not face the future pain of being targeted when metal prices increase. Cables supplying the public have been stolen; manhole covers have been stolen, leaving dangerous openings in our roads and on our footpaths; and buildings have been destroyed by the removal of lead flashing and corporate pipes. I therefore argue that there is an urgent need for the legislation. <BR /> <BR />Daniel Greenberg, the experienced legislative draftsman, said that every piece of legislation, however apparently technical:”
“— this is illegal metal that we are talking about —”
“At the same event, a representative of the Police Service of Northern Ireland indicated that there was ongoing concern and that:”
“This involves international organised crime; it is not just about lead being stolen off somebody's roof. There can be significant international criminal involvement. <BR /> <BR />In May 2015, at the Committee for Justice's stakeholder event on business crime, Wilfred Mitchell, from the Federation of Small Businesses, said:”
“I am saying to Members that we have been successful in driving down the level of metal thefts in Northern Ireland, but I urge Members not to be complacent. If metal prices were to increase, we could expect the amount of theft to increase too. <BR /> <BR />I reiterate the point that whilst most scrap metal dealers in Northern Ireland have adopted the voluntary scheme, not all have, but the mobile scrap metal dealers, as far as I am aware, have not become involved in the scheme. There is a grey area where there is the potential for abuse. <BR /> <BR />I illustrated that, in Great Britain, the roving crime gangs moved north into Scotland. Indeed, in the Republic of Ireland, there were headlines about a Balkan gang flying in at the weekends to steal metal.”
“Likewise, when there was a significant reduction in the value of copper, lead or other metal prices, there was a considerable reduction in the level of theft. If you were to examine the current value of metals on the international market, you would see that there has been a steady decline from 2011-12. In fact, copper and lead prices are approximately half what they were at that time. <BR /> <BR />Why I am saying this? If we introduce legislation, I believe that we will be able to reduce metal theft even more in Northern Ireland, but, more importantly, we will protect ourselves when the price of metal increases again, when this will once more be a lucrative area for criminals to be involved in, because the risks and rewards are out of balance again.”
“It has appeared to be relatively satisfied with the voluntary scheme, which, I acknowledge, has brought about improvements, and there has been a significant reduction in the theft of scrap metal in Northern Ireland. I would highlight, however, that scrap metal theft is very closely related to the rewards that can be gained. <BR /> <BR />When I was researching this area, I came across a Home Office impact assessment of scrap metal theft in a document dated 22 February 2012. In it there is a diagram compiled by the British Transport Police showing that the level of metal theft is closely related to, guess what, the value of the metal. When the value of metal doubled, there was an increase in metal theft, because the rewards were greater and criminals were prepared to take greater risks.”
“Illegal traders will have scant regard for tracing where the material is from. Who knows what the cost will be to the public. I believe, therefore, that better legislation governing scrap metal dealers will bring savings to residential homes, businesses and churches — to a wide range of organisations — as well as potential savings to Departments that have to implement the legislation. <BR /> <BR />I have focused so far on the Environment Minister. What about the Justice Minister? Since its formation, the Department of Justice has faced huge challenges. It has been heavily involved in legal aid reform and prison reform. Scrap metal dealing has not been a priority. There have been, I daresay, much bigger issues at which the Department has been directing its attention.”
“<BR /> <BR />No concerns were expressed in the consultation about equality of opportunity or human rights implications. If anything, responses were supportive. <BR /> <BR />As regards the cost implications of the Bill, we can minimise costs if one Department handles this along with the other waste issues that it handles. <BR /> <BR />I mentioned earlier the Organised Crime Task Force report. There must be considerable costs, at present, in the bureaucratic, ineffective system that we have in taking a complaint to court and getting a judgement. Can we not introduce legislation, such as this, to speed the process up and produce quicker results? We have to remember that while illegal trading goes on, there will be costs to the environment.”
“In the English model, the Environment Agency has an interest in what is happening and also, potentially, the Ministry of Justice. In my consultation, 72% of those who responded agreed that there would be less bureaucracy by having only one Department involved and, I suggest, lower costs. <BR /> <BR />There was clear support for higher fines for serious and repeat offences; even imprisonment was considered. <BR /> <BR />Whilst I had hoped to introduce these measures within a year of the Bill gaining support in the Assembly, I recognise that we need to move at an appropriate speed to allow the industry to retrain and put in place all the necessary bits and pieces. In addition, over the next six months, Departments will be undergoing reorganisation, so I am open to allowing more time for introduction.”
“The English system would require the small dealer to record that information and take the identification details of the person to whom he sells that item. I view that as bureaucratic. There is no harm in keeping a record of the bigger items. In that way, if a car is stolen, at least the engine or gear box could not be sold that way in most instances and a degree of traceability is enabled. <BR /> <BR />The Department of the Environment is responsible for waste management licences for sites and monitoring of the transfer of waste material; it is also responsible for the maintenance of the environment and the prevention of pollution. It seems to me better to have one Department dealing with scrap metal dealer licences than two.”
“Certainly, I would view it as a bad practice to allow that process to be adopted in Northern Ireland. I suggest that where burnt metal is delivered — it would be a very small proportion of any precious metal, such as copper or aluminium cable — it should be set aside for a limited period and the police advised to allow it to be inspected and ultimately, potentially traced back to records showing who supplied that material to the dealer. Hopefully, by doing that, the practice will be discouraged. <BR /> <BR />In addition to reduced bureaucracy for dealers — small dealers in particular — I propose that customer details in sales of less than 50 kilograms would not have to be recorded. What does it matter to whom a second-hand door handle, car door or bonnet is sold?”
“From the consultation and visits to scrap metal dealers, it was clear that the concept of a holding area to receive scrap metal would not be practical. Therefore, I removed that idea from the Bill except in the very limited area of suspicious material — for example, burnt or defaced copper or aluminium cable — which I suggest should be held for inspection if found as part of a delivery. The reason for that is that, in some parts of inner-city England, I saw where vacant office blocks had been stripped of all cables; the cables were literally taken outside and burnt to remove the plastic coating. Part of the reason for that was to remove traceability so that the thieves could not be discovered, and it may increase the value of the metal as well, because it is then reduced to the raw metal.”
“I listened to the consultation and built in an initial limit for going cashless of £100, and the provision to reduce that figure if agreed in future. However, supplier details will have to be recorded to create traceability. The Bill will allow the Minister to amend further and possibly go cashless at some point by using secondary legislation.”
“About 30 interested parties from across Northern Ireland attended. <BR /> <BR />The consultation was available in paper form as well as online. A total of 66 responses were received, of which 55 were completed fully. Seventy-five per cent of respondents thought that the current provisions for regulating scrap metals were inadequate; 75% thought that the voluntary code was not sufficient; and a massive 85% thought that additional legislation was required to combat metal theft. Almost 82% thought that photographic ID should be required to prove identity when selling scrap metal to a dealer, and 85% agreed that vehicle registration should be recorded when selling. I built those provisions into my Bill. <BR /> <BR />Concern was expressed about moving to a cashless system.”
“I had MLAs and interested parties along. I was joined and supported by the Federation of Small Businesses and the Northern Ireland utilities group, which represents Northern Ireland Electricity, Northern Ireland Water, British Telecom and Translink — public bodies and service companies that have suffered considerable expense, disruption and loss of service as a result of the theft of metal. I would like to put on record my appreciation for its encouragement and support, and in particular its coordinators, Sam Gibson of NIE and, now, George Ong of Northern Ireland Water. I also invited the scrap metal industry to an information evening at Stormont where a briefing was given by Ian Hetherington of the British Metals Recycling Association who spoke of his experience of the GB legislation.”
“Some even automatically take pictures of vehicles and the material that has been supplied. This Bill would ensure that all would follow the good practice that is in the voluntary scheme and already in place for many. There is a clear need for this Bill. Furthermore, Northern Ireland is at risk of attracting scrap metal thieves who, in 2012 and 2013, moved regions and went to Scotland to benefit from weaker regulations elsewhere. In addition, in 2014, the Republic of Ireland tightened its waste management regime, so we are even more open to stolen scrap metal entering the recycling system in Northern Ireland without a mandatory scheme ensuring traceability. <BR /> <BR />I undertook significant consultation in coming to the principles in my Bill. I held a briefing session in Stormont as part of that process.”
“So it is clear that there are failings in our system. <BR /> <BR />In addition, mobile scrap metal dealers appear to be outside even the voluntary scheme, which is significant. Where do mobile scrap metal dealers get their metal? We have not got to the end of the supply chain. Potentially, the PSNI cannot trace those who have been stealing metal, should that metal have been fed in through one of the many mobile scrap metal dealers. The only records in the voluntary scheme will be at the main authorised sites, which voluntarily may have bought into the system. My Bill would encompass mobile scrap metal dealers as well as the authorised sites. <BR /> <BR />Following invitations, I visited a couple of sizeable scrap metal dealer sites. They already have significant systems to record details of those they are purchasing from.”
“Certainly, thinking back to the £3 million that I referred to earlier, if someone was content to trade on a large scale without any waste management licences and without any permissions, I do not think that they would volunteer to go into a non-mandatory scheme, and I doubt very much that they would be too concerned about who was depositing scrap metal material at an illegal site. They certainly would not wish to create an audit trail of who was essentially dropping material off at an illegal site.”
“Whilst I welcome that significant court order against the illegal operation, I would point out that it took four and a half years for the court decision to come into being to force the closure of an illegal site. I suggest that, if the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill were in place, a much speedier process would have brought that decision at an earlier time. <BR /> <BR />We have a voluntary scheme whereby most scrap metal dealers with sites record the details of who supplied the scrap metal; but not all dealers have adopted the scheme. I was made aware that some large dealers did not follow the voluntary scheme and dealt with customers without any traceability. Any could opt in or out of the scheme at any time. There is no mandatory requirement.”
“It went on to explain that, on 29 June 2010, Robert John Mulholland and Mulholland Scrap Metals Ltd were visited by Northern Ireland Environment Agency officers and a warning letter was issued asking for a cessation of scrap metal processing as no waste management licence was in force. One year later, they visited again and noticed that the letter had been ignored. During the investigation, it was estimated that 19,722 tons of scrap metal had been handled, with an estimated turnover of £3 million during the year. Over three years later, in November 2014, at a hearing, the court imposed a confiscation order of £500,000 with a default period of five years' imprisonment if the site was not cleared within six months.”
“Some of the cables may have been left over roads. Someone at the end of the line who experienced disrupted supply may have needed an essential electricity supply for their medical condition. These people, of course, had no consideration for that. <BR /> <BR />What has been happening in Northern Ireland without these powers? I recently came across a publication on serious organised crime reported from illegal trade in stolen metal, and the Organised Crime Task Force annual report and threat assessment 2015 case study, on page 30, highlighted the problem of managing scrap metal dealers when relying solely on limited environmental legislation.”
“Just over a year ago, in May 2014, Karen McKevitt asked about the theft of metal manholes from the Department, and it turned out that 71 had been stolen in a 12-month period. I notice that, in 2012, John Dallat asked about the cost of replacing manholes, and it was £35,500 in a 12-month period. The cost of replacing electrical cable was £330,000. I am also aware of considerable costs having built up for Translink. At one stage, £145,000 of costs had been incurred. <BR /> <BR />I also noticed that, in a press release from February 2014 that was published on the BBC, NIE said that the theft of cables by people cutting down electrical poles in Newtownabbey that Tuesday was the seventh such incident that year. This is very serious. Criminals have been cutting down wooden live electricity poles using chainsaws.”
“My Scrap Metal Dealers Bill would give the right of a constable to enter and inspect a scrap metal dealer's property at any reasonable time on notice to the site manager, and on other conditions for unannounced visits if necessary. Indeed, the constable or, for that matter, the Department would be able to issue a closure notice where a scrap metal licence were not available and trading was occurring, and it would then have to apply for a court order to enforce it. <BR /> <BR />I notice that a number of Assembly Members have been pressing on this issue. They, too, have obviously been experiencing difficulty in their areas. I see a range of questions, from David McIlveen, Simon Hamilton, Adrian McQuillan and Judith Cochrane on the issue.”
“He also pointed to the voluntary code of practice that was being adopted following Operation Tornado in England and Wales. So, the Department of Justice and the Department of the Environment seem to be claiming that it was not their responsibility to legislate for scrap metal dealers. So much for joined-up government. It was at that point that I realised that there was a need for a private Member's Bill to try to bring about this change. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that there are aspects of the Bill that involve justice, and there are other aspects of the Bill that could be deemed to involve the Department of the Environment.”
“When I approached the Department of Justice to ask the Minister if he was going to enact something similar to the scrap metal dealer legislation that existed successfully in England and Wales, he advised me in a letter dated 17 October 2012 that:”
“However, he pointed out that the Home Office in England and the Justice Directorate in Scotland had responsibility. Essentially, he would have liked the Justice Minister to deal with the legislation in Northern Ireland. In recent correspondence dated 22 October 2015, since the publication of my Bill, there have been further changes requiring minimum operator competency, including metal recovery sites involving dry scrap. The Minister is also currently consulting on a Waste Management Licensing (Amendment No. 2) Regulation 2015, although the consultation, I understand, has just recently closed. So, there are other aspects afoot. <BR /> <BR />So, what of the Justice Minister?”
“That measure being the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013. The Minister agreed to examine how existing environmental law can be strengthened to address environmental crime. I noticed that the Controlled Waste (Seizure of Property) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2013 have been introduced. Minister Attwood indicated in correspondence dated 26 March 2013:”
“What of Northern Ireland? It is the absence of sufficient measures that has led me to develop this private Member's Bill. So, when I approached the previous Environment Minister, I was advised that the Department of the Environment:”
“Additional relevant new legislation has been introduced in the Dáil. Following the defeat of that Bill, statutory instrument No 320/2014, Waste Management (Facility Permit and Registration) (Amendment) Regulations 2014, was approved on 11 July 2014, which amended the Waste Management (Facility Permit and Registration) Regulations 2007. Licensed waste facilities would have to provide traceability of material purchased, documentation proving ID and proof of current address, for example a utility bill. Last week, I contacted the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, and a senior official confirmed to me that the regulation was applicable to authorised scrap metal sites. So, there already is a degree of traceability in the Republic of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />England and Wales have comprehensive scrap metal dealing.”
“In 2012, the Irish Farmers' Association called for the introduction of a track-and-trace scheme to curb scrap metal and machinery thefts. Just as our farmers have been complaining of metal thefts, so have farmers in the Republic. Therefore, it is clear that there have been difficulties there. Mattie McGrath TD introduced a private Member's Bill in 2013, the Scrap and Precious Metal Dealers Bill. There was criticism that it was too wide-ranging, dealing with gold and silver as well as scrap metal. Although it was defeated in the Dáil, I noticed that Sinn Féin TDs there supported it, so I hope that its Members in the Assembly will likewise support my private Member's Bill in an attempt to regulate the industry.”
“Indeed, there were no requirements under the older legislation, never mind the newer legislation that was recently updated. Only environmental and planning regulations exist, imposing restrictions in those areas. We have no scrap metal dealer licensing in Northern Ireland and we are the only part of the United Kingdom without scrap metal dealer licensing and a mandatory traceability scheme involving scrap metal dealing. <BR /> <BR />I am aware of a concern about the effect of having different rules on either side of the border and how that will potentially distort business. I will come back to Northern Ireland shortly, but I want to update Members on issues that I discovered regarding the Republic of Ireland. I noticed that it, too, had been suffering from a considerable number of metal thefts.”
“Scotland had the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 governing the sale of scrap metal, which had similar provisions to the 1964 Act. When that proved to be insufficient in Scotland, the Scottish Executive amended their scrap metal dealer legislation through the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015, which only recently received Royal Assent, on 4 August 2015. That brought Scotland into line with the updated traceability requirements in the 2013 legislation that applies to England and Wales. <BR /> <BR />When I was considering legislation for Northern Ireland, I was unable to find any specific legislation regulating scrap metal dealers. It would appear that, in the past, anyone could set up as a scrap metal dealer and there was no requirement to meet the fit and proper person requirement.”
“Although many dealers joined the voluntary scheme, which helped to reduce crime, but many others did not. <BR /> <BR />That was followed by the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013, which started out as a private Member's Bill, I might add. It made the recording of all scrap metal purchases compulsory and introduced a cashless system to better trace those profiting from the sale of scrap metal. As a result of those changes, thefts of metal in England and Wales declined by one third between 2012-13 and 2013-14. Interestingly, during the very same period as that reduction happened in England and Wales, there was an increase in metal thefts in Scotland, which did not have an equivalent scheme in operation. It is thought that organised crime elements moved north to Scotland.”
“There in a nutshell is the principle behind the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill. <BR /> <BR />What is the history of scrap metal dealers legislation? In the 1960s, there was concern that metal goods were being stolen, so the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 was introduced in England and Wales. There was a fit and proper person requirement for those who wished to be licensed, and that was aimed at preventing criminals from stealing metal and profiting from recycling stolen goods. With soaring metal prices over recent years, more criminals have been profiting from stolen metal, and the 1964 Act proved to be insufficient. In 2012, police in England and Wales led Operation Tornado, which introduced a voluntary scheme whereby many scrap metal dealers recorded the details of individuals who supplied metals for recycling.”
“Again, I argue that it will further deter metal theft.”
“How can we as legislators increase the risk of detection for those who steal metal when they go to sell it and profit from it? By licensing scrap metal dealers, we will be able to increase the controls that will exist and increase the risks for those who wish to deal in scrap metal illegally. By requiring a verification of the supplier's identity, an audit trail of those who provide the scrap metal to the dealer is created. Therefore, metal thieves would face an increased risk of being identified. This, of course, will deter them from stealing metal objects in the first place. With a requirement of proof of ID, record of sale and vehicle registration, and the restricting of cash sales in favour of traceable bank transactions, the risk of a thief being identified will increase considerably.”
“Criminals will be attracted to or deterred from a particular illegal act depending on the risks and rewards associated with it. For a number of years in Northern Ireland, criminals have been able to prosper anonymously by selling stolen metal goods for cash. If there is a low risk of being detected and an ability to make significant amounts of money, criminals will be drawn into this particular area of crime. This was certainly true of scrap metal theft, particularly when prices peaked around 2011-12. The level of reward is determined by market forces. The value of scrap metal is set by the stock market, based on international prices of metal. It is beyond our control, so we cannot control the rewards that criminals can obtain. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, I then started to look at the risk side of the equation.”
“A few miles up the road from where I live in the Gleno valley, there lies the Ballyvallagh NIE electricity substation, which supplies electricity to much of Larne. I discovered that, on two occasions, the copper earth cables had been stolen. Those who carried out those thefts will have done so at considerable personal risk, and, in addition, the theft endangered the substation and could have resulted in significant failure and the subsequent loss of power for a considerable time to a wider group of constituents in the Larne area. <BR /> <BR />When I started to question where all this material was going, I became aware that it could be traded in Northern Ireland anonymously and for cash through scrap metal dealers and that no specific legislation existed in Northern Ireland around scrap metal dealers.”
“Through this, I learned that it is not just the discomfort of having your property attacked and the value of lead stolen but that there is the cost of weather damage to the interior of the building as a result of water ingress. Then, again, there is the cost of repair for installing new material. So, clearly, there is a need to address this issue. Considerable costs are being incurred in the community as a result of metal theft. Similarly, several schools in my constituency have been targeted — Greenisland Primary School, Downshire School and Ulidia Integrated College — disrupting children's education. <BR /> <BR />Equally, many private homes, social houses and businesses have suffered considerable loss and inconvenience, primarily around the issue of lead-flashing and copper-piping theft.”
“I live near Gleno in a rural community between Larne and Carrickfergus, and there have been a number of incidents in my local community that have shown me from experience that this has been a major problem. First, in Gleno, a new set of street lights was installed by Roads Service to link the village to the local bus stop at McDowell's shop. Within two weeks, the lights stopped working, and, when I enquired what the nature of the fault was, I was advised that thieves had stolen the underground cable. This was at a cost to the public purse, with inconvenience and loss of service to the public. <BR /> <BR />My church, Raloo Presbyterian Church, was targeted, and the lead was stripped off the hall roof.”
“Before introducing legislation, it is important to assess whether there is a need for it and whether the proposal is workable and proportionate. I hope to demonstrate that my private Member's Bill, which leans heavily on legislation that is already in place elsewhere, does so.”
“Last week, my colleague Robin Swann and me visited Larne Skills Development and learned of its remarkable 96% success rate in moving trainees into full-time employment by working closely with private sector companies in meeting their needs. One issue raised with us was the demographics among the welding community. In the next 10 years, a high proportion of welders will be approaching retirement age. How are those demographics being addressed? Will the Minister ensure that we do not reach a situation where there are vacancies for key skills where gainful employment could be had and that the skills will be developed to meet the needs of industry?”
“We all face significant financial challenges, and this is an option that may enable necessary improvements to be brought about for the benefit of tenants. Perhaps some substandard housing stock could be brought back into use so that additional homes would be available for those who may, at this moment in time, be homeless. I am open to such a proposal, but we will have to monitor it carefully and see that it works in practice. <BR /> <BR />As a general comment, I welcome the Bill, although I wonder why it has taken so long, given that some of the issues have been around since 2009. I look forward to dealing formally with the Bill, after it passes Second Reading, at Committee Stage.”
“We should not simply pass such situations on to the private rental sector, which has to attempt to manage them. One landlord told me about a training course that he was on. He was advised that one of the best means of dealing with a disruptive tenant was to pay him to go somewhere else, because it would cost a fortune in unpaid rents and legal cases — it is a long process, perhaps two years — to get him evicted. We need to see how we can better manage private landlord legislation, so that we get a balanced system that protects tenants but also landlords, whether social or private sector. <BR /> <BR />The other aspect of the Bill is the issue of grants by way of a statutory charge. I am open to supporting such an option. We can expect public capital grants to become fewer.”
“Are we going to protect the Housing Executive and social housing associations from potentially disruptive tenants by sharing information? If we do that but do not have some mechanism for including private sector landlords, we risk pushing those involved in antisocial activity, who might get evicted, into the private rental sector. That would leave private landlords, some of whom are small landlords, with less support available and having to manage some of the most difficult tenants around. We need to look at how, particularly in cases where there is known antisocial activity and there are clear convictions, that can be shared more widely, so that people become more responsible for their actions and ultimately look after their home, property and neighbourhood.”
“Perhaps systems need to be developed to manage this, but I firmly believe — we have already picked this up in Committee — that, if there were earlier sharing of information with social housing landlords, there could be benefits to communities and even to some of the tenants who are having difficulties and support could be brought in earlier. They might not even get to the stage where they get evicted if that system were brought in earlier and assistance given at an earlier stage. <BR /> <BR />If we go along that line, however, we then face the issue of private sector landlords, who are becoming more and more important in many communities. With many former Housing Executive houses having been sold off, they are now in the private rental sector.”