Sammy Wilson
MP for East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · United Kingdom
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The Foreign Secretary has said that his concern is for the behaviour of some settlers on the west bank, and I think we all share that, but does he accept that the fear of losing votes to the Green party and the independent Members on the Bench behind me is also…”
“It is a sad state of affairs when ordinary people feel compelled to take direct action against illegal immigration into our country as a result of successive Governments failing to stop the invasion of our country by illegal immigrants, aided by criminal gangs.”
“The Chancellor has rightly identified trade frictions as a major impediment to economic growth. As a result of the Windsor framework, the internal market in the UK has been severely disrupted by EU-imposed restrictions on trade, which mean customs unions, mountains of paperwork and physical barriers. What steps does the right hon.”
“We would not need these regulations were it not for EU regulations having to apply to a certain part of the United Kingdom because it is regarded as part of the EU, regardless of the democratic vote of the British people to leave the EU. This is not about protecting biodiversity.”
“Because they are now subject to all these additional regulations. If they do not abide by those regulations—we have already seen this—those goods can be seized, destroyed, re-exported or detained by DAERA in Northern Ireland. That is not something which is just a maybe; it happens currently.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alec. The Minister outlined why these regulations were necessary and gave what, to most on the Committee, would be an acceptable argument: they are to protect biodiversity in Northern Ireland and to ensure that diseased plants are not accessing the Northern Ireland market.”
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“As has been said, that implies that the only part of bank spending that is sacrosanct is the amount of money spent on bonuses. Making an activity more expensive tends to direct people away from it, and I cannot see how the banks would be any different. If we make it more expensive and more costly for them to give bonuses, they will be driven away from using those funds in that way and it would create a behavioural change. If that change did not happen, however, and bonuses continued to be paid and the tax on them recouped from customers, the alternative would be regulation. The customer should not have to pay for them—if banks do not change their behaviour, we should ensure that the taxes cannot be passed on to customers.”
“Although saving is, of course, good in any economy, the important question at the moment is: how do we generate spending? The hon. Lady has reinforced the point that if money goes to unemployed people they are likely to spend 100% of that income, but someone who gets a £1 million bonus is likely to save 90% of it—perhaps more—so it will not be injected into the economy. I do not think that the argument that the amendment would remove money from the economy and, somehow or other, deflate it stands up to scrutiny. The second argument, which was made by the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke)—he tried to promote it in a couple of interventions on the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie)—is that all this levy would do is make finance either pricier or less available.”
“I would have been very unhappy had the amendment said, “Let’s raise the money and then we’ll see what we will do with it.” It is much easier to make an argument on the grounds of fairness: “Let’s raise the money and this is what we will do with it.” Knowing where the money comes from, the purposes for which it was being used and the purposes for which it will be used once collected would enable us to judge whether the proposition is fair. It is not possible to divorce how the money is raised from what will be done with it.”
“The hon. Gentleman has missed my point; perhaps I did not make it very well. When the Chancellor declares what taxes he intends to levy in the Budget, that announcement is accompanied by what he intends to spend that tax revenue on. Sometimes that revenue materialises and sometimes it does not. The only requirement that I would make of an amendment of this nature is that it does not throw out a reckless figure and say, “We will make £x billion from this provision and spend it.” The Minister was right to ask on what basis the amendment’s calculation was made, but it cannot be argued that, because there is a degree of uncertainty, this is not a good proposition.”
“I agree that a general proposition that every specific tax raised should be hypothecated for a certain purpose would be very dangerous, but this is not a general proposition; it relates to one specific case and that case has to be made.”
“For example, if banks decide not to pay bonuses and to keep the money as profits, corporation tax revenue will go up; or if they decide to put the money back into the bank and thereby increase liquidity, that will have a beneficial effect on the economy, because banks will be able to make more loans to businesses. Just because it may change behaviour does not necessarily make it a bad proposition. In fact, the proposition stands, as it could have other tax revenue-raising consequences or induce changes in bank behaviour that mean they have more money to do what the public expect them to do, rather than simply giving huge bonuses to their top-ranking employees.”
“That is one of the arguments for separating retail banking from the riskier banking activities described by the hon. Gentleman. The fourth argument is totally different from the others, but I think that Government Members were getting increasingly desperate as they clawed for arguments against what is a reasonable proposition. One Member asked several times whether the amendment was designed to change behaviour, to act against perverse incentives or to raise revenue. All taxes tend to have behavioural consequences anyway; it is in their nature to change behaviour. Some are specifically designed to do so, while some are more genuinely revenue-raising because they do not affect behaviour as much. If the revenue from the tax goes down because fewer bonuses are paid, that does not necessarily mean that it is bad for the economy.”
“It is a simplistic view of the economy to suggest that only the private sector creates jobs and the Government sit on their hands—”
“Banks are an essential part of the economy and we want to ensure that our proposals address that. The hon. Gentleman also asked whether it is the role of the Government to create jobs. It is the role of the Government and the private sector to create an environment for jobs and in which economic growth can take place. In some cases, that will mean direct involvement by the Government in job creation. Even some of the most right-wing members of the hon. Gentleman’s party, who are adherents of supply-side economics, would accept that it is the role of Government, for example, to provide opportunities for people to train. That creates jobs. It increases the skills base of the economy, which makes it easier for the private sector to create jobs. It is a question of co-operation. It is not a case of either/or.”
“I hope that my speech has not been interpreted as an anti-bank rant. Indeed, I made the point at the beginning that banks are essential to the working of the economy. They provide the oil for the economy, and we want to find ways to make them do the job they are meant to do. If a bank bonus tax is one of the ways in which we could get them back on track and away from providing perverse incentives for particular employees to behave in certain ways that have not been helpful to the economy, that would be beneficial. A properly functioning banking system is important for the economy. Rather than this proposal being anti-bank— [ Interruption. ] From a sedentary position, the hon. Gentleman says, “Answer the question.” He asked me two questions and I am answering the first.”
“I will conclude on that basis. I hope that I have addressed some of the points made by coalition Members. The amendment should be supported on grounds of fairness, of improving the banking system and of ensuring that the money that the Government raise from this provision could be used to help to stimulate the economy.”
“Some other measures will have a positive impact on Northern Ireland: the change in the threshold for income tax will benefit 7,000 families; the employment tax exemption will benefit 25,000 small businesses in Northern Ireland; and fuel duty not going up in September will benefit motorists.”
“We took the point to him, saying that this measure was going to devastate all the electricity producers in Northern Ireland and leave them uncompetitive. We said that it was going to add to the costs of generating electricity in Northern Ireland—£20 million this year, rising to £45 million—which would have affected household bills by about 15% and made us dependent on producers in the Irish Republic. The one thing I want to say is that when a case is made to the Government, they do respond. It would have been churlish of me not to acknowledge that in the House today.”
“I am grateful to be called so early in the debate. I start by welcoming some of the measures in the Budget. Although there has been a 1% reduction in departmental spending, as a result of the top-slicing, the way in which the Barnett formula works means that Northern Ireland will actually benefit over the two years by about £59 million of additional spending. I do not think the Chancellor meant that to happen; I do not think it was deliberate. Of course it helps to replace some of the 40% reduction in capital spending announced at the very beginning of the Budget period when the Government took over. Also, I welcome Northern Ireland’s exemption from the carbon price floor and put on the record how much work the Chief Secretary to the Treasury did on that.”
“However, there are some issues that the Chancellor has got wrong. First, we have a Budget that he has said is fiscally neutral. That comes at a time when the economy needs some form of stimulus. He has admitted in his speech that it is not coming from consumer spending, because consumers do not have the money to spend or the necessary confidence. It is not coming from business spending, because businesses are trying to contract their loans and deleverage during the recession. It is not coming from exports, because our deficit is actually increasing. The only source of that stimulus therefore has to be what the Government can do in a practical and sustainable way.”
“For an average haulier, this will mean an annual saving of about £750 per vehicle and for the average motorist it will mean a £25 saving per year. Again, that is a good thing for the hard-pressed motorist. The Chancellor made much of the monetary measures that he has introduced, especially the funding for lending scheme. Unfortunately, given the state of the banking industry in Northern Ireland and the fact that most of the banks there are not even part of the scheme, this is likely to have very little impact. However, positive impacts are being felt, and it would be right to start by acknowledging that. It is easy in opposition to criticise when we do not have to make the decisions. We can be the armchair economists who see everything that is wrong, what should be done and what one would do if one were sitting on the other side.”
“The Chancellor also set himself the objective of keeping Britain’s credit rating, but that is slipping because the people who make the assessments are looking at the state of the British economy and asking when we are going to get out of the downward spiral of debt. If there is no growth, we cannot pay off the debt.”
“It means that we can balance our economy. However, it is not a policy that is designed for success; it simply tries to continue the fiscal position that the Government are in at the moment. Indeed, if we look at all the targets that the Chancellor has set himself, we see that he wanted to increase confidence in the economy, yet we have seen low demand from consumers, and firms have not taken up loans—the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) mentioned that—either because they cannot get money from the banks or do not believe that there is any point in investing at the moment. Firms are running down their stock levels, because they see no prospect of additional sales in future.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, which leads me to a point that I wanted to make. We have a Budget that, as the Chancellor has admitted—in fact, boasted—is fiscally neutral. Although it contains good things—I have highlighted some of the impacts of the decisions—it moves the existing money around and does not mean an increase in the total level of demand. If that is not coming from exports, from consumers or from industry, because of a lack of confidence, it has to come as a result of properly targeted Government initiatives. Although I sit on the Opposition Benches, I do not have a vested interest in Government failure and a failure of economic policy, and nor does my party. I want the Government’s policy to succeed, as it means more jobs for people in Northern Ireland and a better standard of living for them.”
“We are spending the money on benefits, or paying people to be on the dole, instead of spending it—this is the point I want to come on to—on the things that would stimulate growth, increase the capacity of the economy and enable us to pay our way out of our debt, while at the same time giving people the dignity of having a job and making a positive contribution to the economy. That is why I think the Chancellor has got this wrong. There has never been a better time for him to borrow. The 10-year price of bonds is down 2%, and it is now cheaper to borrow than it has ever been. Borrowing for those things that will stimulate growth and increase infrastructure in the economy can be very useful.”
“Indeed. I am glad that the hon. Lady has raised the matter, because I want to come on to that. The Chancellor set himself the objective of reducing debt, yet the Red Book shows—this is since the autumn forecast in 2012, so a period of six months—that by 2015, or the end of this Parliament, Government debt will increase from 80% to 85% of gross domestic product. The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) gave us the reason for that: the automatic stabilisers are kicking in.”
“While I welcome the things that I mentioned at the outset, and I acknowledge the way in which the Chancellor and the Treasury have responded to some of the points that we have made from Northern Ireland, for the country as a whole there are things that could have been done that have not been done, which we will live to regret and which will probably result in the Chancellor standing at the Dispatch Box next year saying, “I forecast this, and unfortunately I’m downgrading those forecasts again.””
“Bad borrowing is paying to keep people at home on the dole; good borrowing is paying to have infrastructure development, which helps to increase the capacity of the economy. I think the Chancellor has missed a trick. Instead of having a financially neutral Budget, he ought to look to the future and ask what we can do and how we can raise money to spend on projects that, in the long run, will generate more tax and jobs, give us growth, and bring down the deficit.”
“Both industries need connectivity to north America, and there is faster connectivity to north America from Northern Ireland than there is from the west coast of north America to the east coast. That has stimulated a range of other investments, and it makes sense when it comes to infrastructure investment. In our tourism industry, we spent nearly £100 million on two signature projects— the Titanic signature project and the Causeway project—which were supposed to generate over half a million visitors in one year. In the first six months, they nearly doubled that estimate, in business for hotels in Northern Ireland and business for restaurants, taxi drivers and so on. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) made the point that there is good borrowing and bad borrowing.”
“The hon. Gentleman is quite right. One reason why debt has increased as a percentage of GDP is that GDP has fallen while spending has had to go up to pay for a policy that has failed anyway. If the Government wish to borrow, what kinds of things should they do? I shall give just two examples of infrastructure projects in Northern Ireland on which tens of millions of pounds have been spent, but which have already begun to have an impact on the economy. First, there has been investment in the broadband infrastructure as a result of the Chancellor’s initiatives in previous Budgets. Project Kelvin and broadband infrastructure around Belfast and Londonderry have helped us to grow the financial services industry in Northern Ireland, which employs nearly 30,000 people, and it has helped us to grow the film industry there too.”
“The right hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that anyone who talks about putting money into the infrastructure and the economy is a Keynesian. Would he not accept that the monetarist argument is that the supply side of the economy is very important, and to stimulate the supply side of the economy often the Government need to spend money on capital injections to increase the capacity of the economy to produce more goods? It is not a Keynesian view, it is a monetarist view, with which I would have thought he identified.”
“The Minister is quite right that this is a very serious issue in Northern Ireland. We, too, wish to see the protections he has outlined. Given that Ministers hinted in Committee that if provisions in the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill are not given legislative consent motions by the Northern Ireland Assembly, Ministers might well legislate anyway, will he apply the same rule and approach on the NCA?”
“I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s point, but does he accept that although the Government are to be faulted on many things, a lot of the issues that people wanted addressed in negotiations with the Northern Ireland Minister were addressed? However, two parties are still suspicious of any policing arrangements that are UK-wide rather than based purely in Northern Ireland. They will never be convinced, and that is one reason why the Minister’s job is so difficult.”
“Their tentacles spread well beyond Northern Ireland and dealing with them involves operational decisions that cannot be taken solely by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Indeed, the fact that they are now laundering their money across Europe and north America demonstrates the international dimension involved, and the PSNI cannot be expected to deal with them alone.”
“It is with regret that I see the references to Northern Ireland and the role of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland being removed from the Bill, and I want to put some questions to the Minister on this point. If any part of the United Kingdom needs the effective operation of a national crime agency, it is Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in this House has already identified the fact that hundreds of millions of pounds every year are lost to the Exchequer and go into the hands of criminal gangs, on many occasions to finance terrorist activities, as a result of fuel laundering alone. There are many other areas in which organised crime plays a big role in Northern Ireland. We need the National Crime Agency. The role that the criminals play is not confined to Northern Ireland.”
“For all those reasons, I am disappointed that the Government have meekly walked away, rather than saying what could be done to ensure that Northern Ireland is given the same coverage as other parts of the UK.”
“I would rather get agreement before the Bill passes, even if that means delaying it, in order to ensure UK coverage for the NCA. I sat in on the discussions, and I can say that the SDLP is nervous about being outflanked by Sinn Fein, and Sinn Fein is worried about being outflanked by the SDLP. For political reasons, there is an unwillingness to come to an agreement and have the UK Government legislate on policing matters in Northern Ireland. I also suspect that some sympathise with the crime barons and so do not want effective policing. The PSNI cannot replicate the NCA’s role. It does not have the resources—even if it had the financial resources, it would not have the personnel expertise—which leaves a huge gap when it comes to fighting organised crime in Northern Ireland.”
“I do not make this point lightly, because I want the lines of demarcation between the devolved Administrations and the Westminster Government made clear, but if those lines can be crossed on that issue, why should they not be crossed in respect of the far more important matter of criminals siphoning off hundreds of millions of pounds from the Exchequer to fund criminal and terrorist organisations and to launder money across the world? Why does the Minister not regard that as equally important? Why have the Government not even contemplated doing that if they cannot reach an agreement in Northern Ireland? This affects not just a few individuals, but the very fabric of communities in Northern Ireland now controlled by these crime barons, especially in border areas. That would not be my preferred option.”
“I do not know whether it will—I will not comment on that—but the Minister said: “The important thing here is that I, as a UK Minister, cannot leave people who undertake a same-sex marriage in this country in legal limbo in the hon. Gentleman’s part of the world.” –– [ Official Report, Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Public Bill Committee, 7 March 2013; c. 420.] The implication is that the Government would legislate regardless of the Assembly’s views.”
“I do not want to go into the details of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but I want to use it to illustrate a principle. In the Committee for that Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) put it to the Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the right hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), that there were provisions in the Bill relating to Northern Ireland, even though it was accepted that those were devolved issues. The Minister replied: “I…agree with the hon. Gentleman that marriages and civil partnerships are devolved matters in Scotland and Northern Ireland.” He then commented, however, about what might happen if the Northern Ireland Assembly did not pass a legislative consent motion.”
“I made a point to the Minister earlier about the chances of reaching such an agreement when the mindset is that any police or security activity that is based in the United Kingdom and not solely in Northern Ireland is unacceptable. It is extremely difficult to reach consensus on this matter. Suggestions have been made today as to what could be done. Perhaps we need more time. Would that provide the opportunity to iron out these issues? That is a reasonable suggestion, and it would be much better than pushing this Bill through the House without taking the opportunity to ensure that it covers the whole of the United Kingdom. I say all this with some reluctance, because I want the House to respect the devolution settlement, but I put it to the Minister that we need an explanation on why a different approach is being taken.”
“The deliberations on this Bill went even further, and that makes this outcome even more surprising, given the assurances that were given about a role for the ombudsman, about the need to ensure that the activities of the National Crime Agency did not cross with any PSNI investigations, about the restrictions on the ability of the Justice Minister to direct the police service to co-operate with the NCA in investigations, and about the role of the surveillance commissioner. A range of issues have been dealt with and specifically tailored to the situation in Northern Ireland in response to the concerns expressed mostly by Sinn Fein and those in the nationalist community, yet there is still no agreement in the Executive.”
“Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is probably going to say that he wanted a more direct interface with his party and with Sinn Fein, but of course that is difficult, given that Sinn Fein refuses to take part in any of the activities of this House. It is significant, however, that all the issues that the nationalist parties have raised in the past in relation to SOCA have been dealt with. Indeed, some of the arrangements went beyond that point when SOCA was being set up. As a former member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board, I can remember the discussions that took place at the time and the safeguards that were put in place as a result of concerns being raised by nationalist representatives.”
“Attempts have been made during the debate to make exactly that distinction, but the hon. Lady is absolutely right to say that there is no such distinction. It is surprising that the Northern Ireland Executive could not agree on having a legislative consent motion, which would have enabled the Bill to go through complete with its provisions for Northern Ireland. There has been some criticism of the Minister, and questions have been asked about what he has done for Northern Ireland. Extensive discussions have taken place between his Department and the Department of Justice and the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland. I know that the hon.”
“That is why the Government should keep open the option of considering whether the demarcation between the devolved authorities and the authority of this House could and should be blurred to take this matter forward. If a Minister can threaten to do such a thing on something like civil partnerships and same-sex marriage, there is an even stronger case for doing it here.”
“That is another way of looking at how to get coverage in Northern Ireland. The Minister cannot simply say, “Well, we haven’t got the agreement of the Executive.” I do not know whether we will ever get that agreement. Some reasonable and substantial changes have been made to the Bill as it affects the NCA’s operation in Northern Ireland, as a result of the efforts of Justice Ministers—who, incidentally, acted not in isolation, but as a result of representations from the very parties that have opposed the legislative consent motion. I accept that, under the Bill, the Home Secretary may, at some future date—presumably after she has got a signal from the parties in Northern Ireland—introduce the necessary changes, but I do not know whether that will ever be possible.”
“The hon. Gentleman’s view on policing and the safeguards that are required obviously differs from mine, but all the discussion to which he has referred happened a long time ago, when SOCA was set up. The relationships between the Policing Board and SOCA and between the ombudsman and SOCA, and the safeguards that were to be provided, are still in place, and indeed have been added to. I cannot understand—I am sure it would be useful to the Minister to know this as well—where the gaps which, according to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), still exist can be found. The safeguards that his party agreed were necessary in the past were adequate and have been added to, but there seems still to be a reluctance to accept that the National Crime Agency will be able to operate in the context of the Bill.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. It is a great pity that the Minister would not give way on this point earlier. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that crime barons in Northern Ireland who are reaping hundreds of millions of pounds a year will now be able to invest those proceeds across the border in the Irish Republic with impunity and without any danger of those assets being seized? I know that that is a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly, but it will create a serious hole in the pursuit of such criminals and will cause great difficulty in recovering assets from them.”
“Does the Minister not accept, however, that on this issue there is a big difference? The inability to seize assets that criminals who operate from Northern Ireland might have outside Northern Ireland is a UK-wide problem, in so far as criminals currently involved in activities here in Great Britain could relocate to Northern Ireland and thereby escape losing their ill-gotten gains. From that point of view, this is not simply a Northern Ireland issue or an issue for the Government of Northern Ireland; rather, it becomes an issue for the Government of the United Kingdom. At least on this issue, he could override the views in Northern Ireland.”
“Like many other peripheral regions of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland has suffered most during this recession. We understand that reckless expenditure will damage the economy, but would the Secretary of State support the calls by all the regional administrations in the United Kingdom for a fiscal stimulus for capital expenditure, which will create short-term jobs and increase the economy’s capacity in the long run?”
“I welcome the fact that the Government are now tackling the legacy they were left, as far as benefits for foreigners are concerned, but does the Minister not see the contradiction in the Government’s stance at present? We are talking tough at home while—according to Romanian Ministers—giving assurances that those who come from Romania will be given full access to benefits, on the same basis as UK citizens. Does he not see that as an incentive for Romanians to come here and dip into the financial honeypot that they see?”
“I am sure the Minister appreciates that the countries representing the fringe of the United Kingdom will feel they have been somewhat abandoned in this announcement. May I ask him about the cost of all this? Given that, as a result of the legacy of Operation Banner in Northern Ireland, there has been substantial investment by the military, especially in family housing and so on, why has he turned his back on some of the investment that is already available in Northern Ireland and not decided to relocate some of the units at Palace barracks or Thiepval barracks?”
“The report indicates that, so arrogant were some bank workers, they treated themselves as masters of the universe to whom normal rules of fair play did not apply, which has impacted on banks and their reputations. The banks rather than the taxpayers will pay the fines, as they are required to do, but how will the Minister ensure they do not simply pass on additional charges to customers to recoup the costs?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that, as well as prison leavers being vulnerable to suicidal tendencies, one of the groups at most risk are young males involved in the drug culture, and is it not odd, therefore, that some people are still campaigning to legalise drug use?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that thousands of teachers across this country could find themselves on the wrong side of the law in so far as the legislation requires them to teach the nature of marriage? If the nature of marriage is changed in this Bill, those who refuse to teach that new nature could find themselves on the wrong side of the law.”