Sammy Wilson
MP for East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · United Kingdom
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The Foreign Secretary has said that his concern is for the behaviour of some settlers on the west bank, and I think we all share that, but does he accept that the fear of losing votes to the Green party and the independent Members on the Bench behind me is also…”
“It is a sad state of affairs when ordinary people feel compelled to take direct action against illegal immigration into our country as a result of successive Governments failing to stop the invasion of our country by illegal immigrants, aided by criminal gangs.”
“The Chancellor has rightly identified trade frictions as a major impediment to economic growth. As a result of the Windsor framework, the internal market in the UK has been severely disrupted by EU-imposed restrictions on trade, which mean customs unions, mountains of paperwork and physical barriers. What steps does the right hon.”
“We would not need these regulations were it not for EU regulations having to apply to a certain part of the United Kingdom because it is regarded as part of the EU, regardless of the democratic vote of the British people to leave the EU. This is not about protecting biodiversity.”
“Because they are now subject to all these additional regulations. If they do not abide by those regulations—we have already seen this—those goods can be seized, destroyed, re-exported or detained by DAERA in Northern Ireland. That is not something which is just a maybe; it happens currently.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alec. The Minister outlined why these regulations were necessary and gave what, to most on the Committee, would be an acceptable argument: they are to protect biodiversity in Northern Ireland and to ensure that diseased plants are not accessing the Northern Ireland market.”
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“I understand the point about the economic context in which the Bill is now placed—it is different from when the Bill was originally thought out—but does the hon. Gentleman accept that the principles behind it—to try to get those who are unemployed, regardless of the economic circumstances, into a mind frame where they can prepare themselves for job opportunities that may become available, and can look at their needs and their skills and then move forward, however tentatively, towards employment—are the right way forward?”
“Will he assure us first, that it will be simple and transparent, and that firms will know when they are eligible; secondly, that it will be available quickly to firms when they find themselves in trouble; and lastly, that banks will not be able to use the scheme simply to replace their lending, rather than extending the money that is freed up to other firms?”
“I, too, welcome the statement. The measure may be copied from the Conservative party, but that will not matter a great deal to the people who will benefit from it or to firms that find themselves in trouble because of an inability to borrow. There are three points that companies would make to me. First, any scheme should be simple, and companies should know who is and is not eligible. Secondly, it should be speedily applied when firms find themselves in trouble. Thirdly, it should be targeted at firms that are in genuine need as a result of short-term working capital difficulties. Will the Minister give us an assurance about the eligibility criteria for the scheme?”
“This important measure is intended to get people on low incomes to start saving and my party supports it, but in the pilot schemes, what percentage of those eligible actually took advantage of the opportunities being presented? Many of the folks who will be covered by the Bill probably find it hard enough to make ends meet day to day, so what lessons have been learned about what needs to be done to encourage eligible people to take up the opportunities being offered?”
“I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point about whether the accounts will pay interest, but the important thing is that there should be an incentive for people to start saving. If a 50 per cent. bonus is available, and even if in the first two years no other interest is available, that will be an incentive. If people wish to obtain a return after the two years have elapsed, they will have a fund of savings that they can put into an account that offers a return. The essential point of the initiative, however, is to give people the incentive regularly to start putting money aside. Will the hon. Gentleman at least concede that the Bill provides that incentive?”
“I, too, pay tribute to the many who served their country in Iraq and to those who died doing so. I pay particular tribute to the hundreds from Northern Ireland who served in the Royal Irish Regiment and other regiments during the past six years. On a recent visit to Basra, I was particularly impressed by how professional, proud and passionate those who are serving there are about the role that we are playing. Much work still needs to be done to train the police, to secure the area against destabilisation by insurgents from Iran, to build the infrastructure in the poorer areas of Basra and to protect minorities, especially the Christians. Will the Prime Minister tell us what plans have been put in place to ensure that the outstanding tasks are completed and not left undone?”
“On a recent visit to Iraq, a number of us observed the pride taken by those serving on our behalf in the work that they were doing in rebuilding the area surrounding Basra and training the security forces and army. They made very clear their belief that they had an important job to do, and that they were doing that important job and doing it proudly. They also made it clear that they did not want to see their work undone by a political decision to pull them out quickly before it had been completed. May we have a an assurance that the foundations that have been laid will be built upon before any quick decision is made?”
“This week the Serious Organised Crime Agency shelved plans to name drug barons, people traffickers and other criminals who have had financial reporting orders placed on them, because doing so would breach their human rights. The purpose of naming them was to make it more difficult for them to reoffend, and to help the public to co-operate with the police in reporting suspicious financial transactions. Will the Leader of the House give us an opportunity to debate human rights legislation, which increasingly seems to distort the law in favour of criminals?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that job creation is not simply about public spending but about easing the burden on small businesses, which are the real job creators? The policies being followed by the Government are making it much more difficult for small businesses to do that. If we are going to find ways of re-channelling those who are unemployed, there must be a good, strong small business sector.”
“I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point that targets set for a time when most of us will not be in the House—and perhaps not on the planet—are all very well. However, even if the Government reduced or amended the targets, the Bill contains costs now that would hit our constituents hard in fuel, food and travel bills. We should be worrying about that.”
“The hon. Gentleman says that he has been seized of the idea for the past 35 years, but 35 years ago, some of the people who now talk about man-made global warming were talking about man-made global cooling and an ice age. If the hon. Gentleman was seized of the idea in the 1970s, he was well ahead of those who now advocate the notion of global warming.”
“First, I have to say how pleased I am that, at least towards the end of the debate on this group of amendments, I heard some voices querying what is being done in this part of the Bill. That shows that there is another side to the argument. The tactic of those who have driven the Bill forward has been to give the impression that those who take a contrary view are cranks who do not care about the environment and are isolated. This is in spite of the fact that the most recent survey of climate scientists indicates that 46 per cent. of them disagree with the view that climate change is solely down to the activities of man. There is no scientific consensus on this, and there have been attempts to silence those who take a different view.”
“I think I have already made it clear that 46 per cent. of climate scientists believe that climate change is not solely down to the activity of man. That means, of course, that there are scientists who believe that it is. There is an array of environmentalists, scientists and economists who take a contrary view, however, and who believe that the impact of man is not significant. I want to make it clear that I happen to share that view.”
“If one looks at the second IPCC report, one can see that Sir John Houghton suggested that he had excluded the views of some of those scientists because they did not fit in with the general view. There is a wide range of views among scientists who were engaged on the panel, and other views were deliberately excluded.”
“I do not have the names of the two scientists involved, but they are associated with the Hamburg institute. The latest revision of the relevant survey took place in 2005, so this is a fairly up-to-date assertion. Indeed, let us look at some of the comments on the IPCC report. The Wall Street Journal talked about a “cover-up in the greenhouse” and pointed to some views having been suppressed.”
“Gummer) said about industries paying for the cost of the carbon they use, but the truth of the matter is that it is not some anonymous “they”, as in a shipping or airline company as, eventually, this comes down to costs that are passed on to consumers, travellers and all of us in respect of transporting our food to the shops where we purchase it. Those are real costs that our constituents will have to pay.”
“I accept that I was probably led astray by the Members who intervened; they diverted me from the point that I was briefly trying to establish. I was arguing that a wide range of people are still sceptical about the main causes of climate change, which brings me to my point about the inclusion of aviation and shipping in the Bill. If we have already gone down the road of including a wide range of our industries, our domestic fuel consumption and a number of climate-change regulations, the impact will be compounded when we include shipping and aviation. As others have pointed out, all this has been done without any indication of the cost to the relevant industries. I noted what the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr.”
“Member for Northavon (Steve Webb), speaking for the Liberal Democrats, said that he thought this was more a nudge and a wink, and that nothing much would be done at the end of the day as the Government would find ways around meeting the targets. That might well be the best result. The problem is that in the interim we are going to face additional costs and additional disadvantages to our economy. My hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea)—he totally disagrees with my views on this issue, incidentally, but I agree with him on this—pointed out that those costs will not be felt evenly. Some constituencies will suffer the costs much more heavily than others. If we are going to vote this Bill through, we should at least make people aware of the impact it is likely to have on them, their livelihoods and their economic activities.”
“To get Russia involved in the Kyoto protocol, it was given permits based on 1990 levels—when, of course, CO 2 emissions from huge, inefficient and dirty state industries were massive. Many of those industries have closed down; their emissions are no longer. However, the ETS mechanism will enable aviation and shipping industries to purchase, from Russia and other countries awash with emissions, certificates to produce CO 2 emissions that are not currently being produced. Rather than a reduction, we could actually see an increase in CO 2 emissions. The impact will only add to the costs of industry, which will then be borne by consumers and people who wish to travel. The hon.”
“I heard the enthusiasm of some Conservative Members; they usually argue in favour of the working of the market and the market economy, yet some of them seemed to embrace a degree of state control and state planning that would make some of the left-wing Labour Members cheer and clap at the prospect. My second point, then, is that there will be a huge increase in Government regulation and Government interference in the economy, with all the consequences that will follow, yet we know how successful state planning has been in the past. Thirdly, all this pain will not have an impact on CO 2 emissions in any case, because most of them are to be taken up by the use of the emissions trading scheme, whereby permits to pollute and produce emissions can be bought. We have already heard about caps, but Europe is awash with permits at the moment.”
“Member for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner) will know something about economic modelling, but climate change modelling is even more complicated and even less certain. We already know the impact of some economic models and we know how true the connections have been. The inclusion of aviation and shipping in the Bill has been accomplished without spelling out the costs. We will all be held responsible and we will all be held to account for that. What are the costs for our constituents? They have not been spelled out. Secondly, as has emerged from a number of speeches, the degree of state and international planning involved in the whole exercise is considerable. Indeed, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) pointed out that there are often unintended consequences in pursuing state and international planning.”
“I note that, but as was pointed out earlier, the discount rates in Lord Stern’s report grossly exaggerate the benefits of taking action and underestimate the cost of doing so. In artificially applying a 2 per cent. discount rate, he of course got the answer that he wanted. By any stretch of the imagination, costs amounting to 2 per cent. of gross domestic product will have a massive impact on our ability to finance public services. Again, those costs will be felt by individuals. Some of the costs identified by Lord Stern—the impact on flooding, on food production and so forth—were predictions based on models with hundreds of variables. Even scientists have accepted that they do not understand all the connections between those variables. The hon.”
“I shall not go into all that, as I have probably pushed your indulgence to the limit, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but there may be opportunities later in the debate to look at what can be done. If there is, as I accept, global warming, climate change and impacts stemming from them and if we are going to keep using our resources, let us look into what we can do now that will make an impact now—not some time in the future, when, as has already been pointed out, most of us will not even be in the House anyway!”
“The Minister is right that there have been significant drug hauls in Northern Ireland, many of which have taken place in my constituency since the port of Larne began to be used to import drugs. Does he accept that, as has been said, the problem is not being dealt with at street level? The assets of those who clearly live off the proceeds of such crime are not being seized in sufficient quantities. The real way to hit criminals is to put them behind bars and take their money.”
“I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has said. I am interested to know the impact on passenger costs in the UK and internationally of all the proposals put forward by the Liberals. On freight transport, has he made any estimate of the impact on carbon emissions that would result from airlines switching from British to European airports and then carrying goods into the UK by road?”
“This week 100 soldiers from the Territorial Army have returned to Northern Ireland from Afghanistan, and will rightly be honoured by Belfast city council at the end of the month. But as the political situation in Afghanistan is still fragile, the Americans say that they need about three more battalions, and the outgoing British commander has said that the situation is still very fragile and the Taliban are still resilient, will the Minister comment on the likelihood of troops being withdrawn within the next three to five years? Or is it likely that soldiers from Northern Ireland and elsewhere will be going back to Afghanistan for further tours of duty?”
“The hon. Gentleman’s point about corporation tax, which has been mentioned and which particularly affects companies in Northern Ireland because of the land boundary, has been resisted strongly by the Treasury. Does he agree that the experience of the Irish Republic, where a lot of inward investment has attracted a high percentage of EU inward investment as a result of the low corporation tax rate, proves his point? Corporation tax is an important incentive for firms, and we cannot understand why the Treasury has resisted the idea.”
“All the issues that the Minister mentioned may well be matters that should be considered in the House, but is today’s debate not supposed to be about fuel duty?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the leakage to which he refers is particularly severe in Northern Ireland, because of the differences in duty between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland? Indeed, those differences have led to large-scale operations by gangsters, who take hundreds of millions of pounds out of the economy every year through fuel smuggling.”
“Does my hon. Friend find it odd that the tariffs for some of the most needy and the poorest—those who use card meters, for example—are not the lowest? Addressing that issue would be one way in which energy companies could help reduce fuel poverty.”
“I have listened to the Minister’s argument, and it is a refinement of the argument put forward time and time again to excuse the Government for not reducing fuel duty at a time when money from VAT on fuel and North sea revenues would be expected to rise. The explanation that she has given is not borne out by the figures that the Government published in the Budget report for 2009, which do not show, over the next three years, either a fall in North sea revenue duties or VAT duties. How does she square what she says with the Government’s published figures?”
“The Minister argued earlier that VAT revenues from other areas fell when fuel duty went up. On that argument, if the fuel stabiliser that the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening) proposes were introduced, surely the compensatory element for public finance would be self-financing. If we give people more money in their pockets through lower fuel prices, they will spend more on goods and the Government will get more through VAT.”
“Does my hon. Friend accept that all the evidence so far is that the single electricity market, which in the Irish Republic is dominated by the Government-sponsored monopoly ESB—the Electricity Supply Board—has added to fuel costs in Northern Ireland, not reduced them?”
“The motion was designed to start discussion and tease out from the Government how the windfall from rising oil prices could be spent and how to alleviate the difficult position in which many people find themselves. It was not meant to be confrontational, but the Government tabled an amendment that gives excuses rather than dealing with the problems that we wanted tackled.”
“Member for Putney (Justine Greening) made that point. On the Government’s own admission, even at a time of rising fuel prices, money is available. If it can be found on other occasions, why cannot it be found now? Of course, there are many ways in which spending can be diverted. Although the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) was cut off in his prime, I was interested in his point about Government waste. It was probably just as well for the Financial Secretary that he was cut off for wandering off the subject, but his points were relevant. It is possible, even in the current financial framework, to consider how money might be better spent.”
“The increase has been a bit more rapid in the past couple of months, but prices have been rising for well over a year—well before the figures were produced. Yet, when we consider the matter against that background, and ask whether the Government predicted that VAT receipts would decrease overall or would stay the same, the answer is no. They predicted that in 2006 VAT receipts would be £77.4 billion and that, even with rising fuel prices, they would increase to £83.8 billion in 2008-09. The Government’s figures do not bear out the Financial Secretary’s argument. The same applies to fuel duty, which has increased from £23.6 billion to £25.7 billion. That provides additional money, which could be used—at least partly—to tackle fuel poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann and the hon.”
“Members supported. The hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) said that perhaps there was merit in her argument. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said that there should be greater transparency about it. Her argument is that increasing fuel prices do not mean that the Government have more revenue, because as fuel prices increase, people’s disposable income decreases, so they spend less money on other things. I could take that if the Government’s figures, which they produced in the Budget in March, showed that that was the case, but they do not. I assume that the Budget and the figures were drawn up at the last possible moment, when we already knew that fuel prices were increasing. They did not just start to go up in the past month—they have been increasing steadily.”
“The tightening does not seem to matter then. The motion says that there is a crisis—one which affects a wide range of people. Those people now find it impossible to pay their fuel bills. They are people on low incomes, or old people who stay at home. It is fine for many of us here; I come to an office that is heated during the day, and I do not have to worry about heating my home. But I think of constituents who are confined to their house all day, who are living on a pension and who have to keep their heat on. When I visit them, I find that some of them have a coat on and a rug around them because they cannot afford to pay their fuel bills. To me, that warrants a little fiscal loosening, especially when money is available from additional fuel duty. Let me deal with the Financial Secretary’s second point, which several hon.”
“If we are talking about an economic situation that has been created by profligacy in the years when there should have been prudence, we may well reach the conclusion that the fiscal framework is correct. However, would that all have been necessary if proper economic policies had been pursued during the years when money should have been set aside? Even taking into account the IMF’s arguments that fiscal tightening is appropriate and that the fiscal framework is correct, I note that when it comes to a crisis that affects the Government, such fiscal tightening is suddenly no longer quite so important or such a priority. If there is a by-election, or a revolt on the Back Benches against the impact of tax policies on the poor and the less well-off, the fiscal purse strings can be loosened, and £2.7 billion can be produced.”
“In the Minister’s defence, I must explain that she referred to the International Monetary Fund. The IMF said—I love this phrase—that the fiscal tightening is appropriate. Let us get down to the bones of it: fiscal tightening means that people get more money taken out of their pockets. They have less disposable income. It is a lovely phrase, and the IMF has endorsed it. The IMF has also endorsed the fiscal framework as correct. We start off from a position where Government borrowing has been rising. Since 2000, Government borrowing has risen by 20 per cent., and that borrowing started when we should have been putting money aside for the bad times.”
“The Government have slavishly followed EU directives, and I shall just give one example—the idea that we need to get 20 per cent. of our fuel from biofuels by 2020 to cut CO 2 emissions. It has already been stated that 75 per cent. of the increase in food costs since 2002 is directly attributable to the fact that we now use grain and land to produce fuels that have no apparent impact on global warming anyway. But we slavishly follow those directives. I just wanted to illustrate some of the ways in which I believe the Government have made the situation worse. I shall deal with some of the issues raised, and hon. Members have raised a wide range of them. The impact of the Government’s macro-economic policies on people’s well-being and on the cost of living in the UK cannot be ignored.”
“The increase in vehicle excise duty will catch 2.3 million households across the United Kingdom, many of whom can afford only second-hand cars. People do not understand why they should face an increased bill of £250 per year in running their car so as to reduce global CO 2 emissions. They do not see the connection between the well-being that is supposed to come from such a tax and the immediate problem that it causes them in running their much-needed car. The increased tax burden that people across the United Kingdom have faced gives them less disposable income. Since this Government took office in 1997, the tax burden has increased by 6.6 per cent. By the end of 2012, it will have increased by 8 per cent. That means people have less disposable income, which adds to their economic misery at a time of rising costs.”
“Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) talked about the problems that affect his rural constituency. The same problems have a great impact in Northern Ireland; our communities, who live largely in rural areas, are affected by the kinds of costs that are going up. A higher proportion of people are already on low incomes, and measures such as the 10p tax change have a disproportionate impact on them. The situation does have some global reasons behind it, but it has been made worse by actions taken by the Government. I mentioned the 10p tax rate and the impact on the lower-paid. Even after the £2.7 billion compensation package, there will still be people on incomes of less than £7,500 who find themselves worse off at the end of this financial year.”
“Nowadays, we never hear him or other Ministers mentioning 1997, because they have found a new way of deflecting the blame: the explanation is not historical but global; the problem is somebody else’s fault, or down to influences beyond our control. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) said, while things may well happen on a global stage, Governments cannot run away from their responsibility for managing the economy and dealing with the issues that arise. Although we have not made the motion specific to Northern Ireland, Members in all parts of the House have referred to how Northern Ireland specifically is damaged by the increases in the cost of living. Ninety-six per cent. of our energy sources are imported, and therefore volatile in terms of changes in the value of sterling, and oil and gas prices. The hon.”
“Of course, there is no political point for the DUP to make anyhow, because the Government do not put up candidates in Northern Ireland. One of the reasons why I am disappointed that the Government found it necessary to table an amendment is that we wanted this debate to explore the possible options for dealing with the issues that are affecting people across the United Kingdom. I sometimes joke with the Scottish National party Members who sit in front of me that since I came into this House, every time there has been a problem the Prime Minister has referred back to 1997, as if all the problems that the Government faced were due to the mismanagement of the Conservative party during its years in government.”
“Let me make it clear that as a party we do not take any pleasure in the current economic crisis that is affecting people not only in Northern Ireland but right across the United Kingdom. In the motion, we deliberately did not go out of our way to make a party political point against the Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) pointed out, the vast majority of people who are watching this debate—if there are any—or who are interested in the issue do not want to know about the macro-economic explanations or the political excuses. They are concerned about how they pay for the uniform that their youngster needs for school in September, how they pay their fuel bill or how they keep their car running. The motion was not designed to be confrontational.”
“Unfortunately, I believe—and I think that many of their own Back Benchers would accept this, too—that they appear to be out of touch. That will be fatal.”
“If the Economic Secretary intends to argue against the points that have been made, there should be transparency and an explanation of how the conclusion that the Financial Secretary outlined was reached. The Government have made a lot of the right noises today. The Financial Secretary started by expressing sympathy. The Government very often make the right noises on such issues and sometimes they even do the right things. She made the point, which I accept, that for many years the economy in Northern Ireland has been good. We have experienced the lowest rates of unemployment. I want to acknowledge that, because I do not want this debate to be seen as all negative. However, too often the Government have made the wrong decisions.”
“The Government predicted that the oil price increases anticipated at the time of the Budget—which were much lower than what subsequently transpired—meant that they would have £5.4 billion more in the next financial year. Perhaps the Economic Secretary to the Treasury has an answer to the problem, but, as several hon. Members pointed out—even those who were supportive, such as the hon. Member for Twickenham—if there is an economic model that shows no overall financial gain, it should at least be transparent. I know from teaching economics in school that the one cardinal rule when examining the way in which one variable affects another is that unless all other things are equal—the old ceteris paribus; even a GCSE economics student will know that—it is not possible to identify the cause and effect of a specific economic event.”
“I appreciate the point made by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), but does the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) accept that increasingly, the evidence in Northern Ireland suggests that those who were involved in paramilitary activity, or who are still involved in it, interfere with witnesses on a regular basis, which makes it difficult for the due process of law to be carried out?”