Sammy Wilson
MP for East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · United Kingdom
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The Foreign Secretary has said that his concern is for the behaviour of some settlers on the west bank, and I think we all share that, but does he accept that the fear of losing votes to the Green party and the independent Members on the Bench behind me is also…”
“It is a sad state of affairs when ordinary people feel compelled to take direct action against illegal immigration into our country as a result of successive Governments failing to stop the invasion of our country by illegal immigrants, aided by criminal gangs.”
“The Chancellor has rightly identified trade frictions as a major impediment to economic growth. As a result of the Windsor framework, the internal market in the UK has been severely disrupted by EU-imposed restrictions on trade, which mean customs unions, mountains of paperwork and physical barriers. What steps does the right hon.”
“We would not need these regulations were it not for EU regulations having to apply to a certain part of the United Kingdom because it is regarded as part of the EU, regardless of the democratic vote of the British people to leave the EU. This is not about protecting biodiversity.”
“Because they are now subject to all these additional regulations. If they do not abide by those regulations—we have already seen this—those goods can be seized, destroyed, re-exported or detained by DAERA in Northern Ireland. That is not something which is just a maybe; it happens currently.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alec. The Minister outlined why these regulations were necessary and gave what, to most on the Committee, would be an acceptable argument: they are to protect biodiversity in Northern Ireland and to ensure that diseased plants are not accessing the Northern Ireland market.”
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“Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the police have a duty of care to witnesses, so if they believe that someone with a violent record may try to interfere with a witness, that witness should at least be warned? There is no point a witness dropping out later in a case. The police should try to test how strong they are at the very beginning.”
“Speaking as someone who comes from a part of the United Kingdom that has suffered very badly from terrorism over the past 30 years, I think that the members of our party take very seriously any threat to national security, and any actions that may give publicity to terrorists. On the power that the Home Secretary is seeking today, if the matter is to be debated in the House every time there is a severe threat, will it not give terrorists an opportunity to get the oxygen of publicity that she so much wants to deny them?”
“The Prime Minister will be aware of the Sinn Fein threat to bring down the Northern Ireland Assembly tomorrow. I am sure that the irony of republicans wishing to reinstate rule from London will not be lost on the House, or on the people of Northern Ireland. Will he give an assurance that the Government will not cave in to this blackmail, and that in the event of direct rule having to be reintroduced—something that my party will do its best to avoid—the Sinn Fein agenda, which it has not been able to persuade the Northern Ireland Assembly to adopt, will not be adopted by his Government or the House?”
“(East Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. Gentleman accept that this is not about bringing more fathers into families, but about state recognition of the importance of fatherhood within families? If this provision goes through unamended, we will send out the message that it does not matter whether there is a father, while at the same time Government policy says that it does.”
“I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement. I am sure that everyone would wish to see a successful policy implemented that will steer us through the current global economic crisis. However, examination of the detail does not seem to live up to the headline that he has claimed. On the housing market, does he agree that the funding he announced will result in about 1,000 new houses being bought and about 2,000 people being helped through shared equity schemes? Will he explain how, given that it takes three or four years to turn round failing schools, he can claim that by 2011 there will be no failing schools in this country?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that given the brutality of the current regime in Burma, limiting the level of intervention in the way that has been suggested may only encourage it in its intransigence, and that it is therefore important that there be no limit to the level of intervention if it is deemed necessary and deemed to be the only way of helping people who have been left to their own devices?”
“Will the right hon. Lady accept that, although she says that the measure was made clear in the Budget, when the Chancellor referred to it he suggested that the majority of drivers would be no better or worse off, and did not mention the fact that millions of drivers would be paying between £50 and £90 per year more?”
“Members have said in the debate that many of the people involved are from low-income families and have bought old cars because those are all that they can afford, and large cars because they have families.”
“We were told that these were taxes to change behaviour—but the way in which they were introduced makes it clear that, rather than behaviour-changing taxes, they were simply a cynical attempt to exploit the hysteria about the role of CO 2 emissions in climate change. Secondly, the Minister told us that even when these taxes have been made, the impact on CO 2 emissions will be very little—less than a fraction of 1 per cent. That is based on the assumption that people will sell their CO 2 -emitting cars and opt for cars that emit less. That assumption, of course, as hon. Members have pointed out, is based on a false premise—that many of those who own those cars have the ability to sell them and buy a different car. It is quite clear from what hon.”
“I shall support the motion tonight for two reasons. First, the Minister has said that this is a green tax designed to change behaviour, yet if we look at how it was introduced, we see that it happened without any warning. Furthermore, the Chancellor suggested that the increase in VED would affect hardly anyone, that the majority of people would be unaffected and that there would be nothing to worry about. We now know, of course, that more than 16 million motorists will be affected by 2010. If the Government are to introduce measures to change people’s behaviour, surely the first thing that they should do is spell out those measures, and their consequences. They should then seek to persuade people to do something different. They should not do that by stealth.”
“For those two reasons—because the tax is regressive and because it does not and will not achieve what it is designed to achieve—I will support the Opposition motion tonight.”
“I would give way, but I have to finish quickly. Those people buy large cars because they require them for their work or their families, so they will not be able to change their behaviour in that way even if they wanted to, and even if they had the economic incentive to do so. When we look into the environmental credentials of this tax, it becomes quite clear that it is not about changing behaviour or dealing with climate change; it is about raising revenue. If people believe in high taxation, that is fine, but surely that is not true of regressive taxation that hits the poor—poor or disabled families, poor families living in rural areas, poor families with low incomes who can only afford old cars.”
“Although many people welcome the fact that a bit of normality is returning to Northern Ireland, does my hon. Friend agree that, in parts of south Armagh, the police say that there are still occasions when it is safe to go in only by helicopter? If the facility at Aldergrove is removed, it could impair police operations, particularly against the fuel laundering mafia that seems to have taken over south Armagh and is using semi-paramilitary tactics.”
“Mr. Burnside accused the First Minister of not fighting hard enough, but does my hon. Friend share my feelings about how the announcement was made? Rather than giving prior notice or even an opportunity for discussion in the House, the Government issued a written statement. That is not how such a far-reaching decision should have been announced.”
“Historically, I know the reasons for that, and I am glad that we do not need the level of troop allocation to Northern Ireland that we did in the past because it shows that we are moving towards greater normality. As a result of the endeavours of members of our party, we are moving Northern Ireland away from a conflict situation towards a much more peaceful and bright future. That has necessarily caused adjustments to be made in constituencies all around Northern Ireland. I understand that this proposal is not related to the need to run down the security forces backing up the police in Northern Ireland and that it is part of the general adjustments being made.”
“Aldergrove has the facilities, and it has excellent conditions for the personnel who work on the base. I have been in the houses of many of the personnel based at Aldergrove, and the facilities are first class. Will the Minister say whether it was simply a case of asking what savings could be made by closing Aldergrove, rather than looking at the opportunities to use such a cost-effective and well-resourced facility in Northern Ireland and considering whether some activities could be moved from other parts of the United Kingdom? I would also like the Minister to indicate whether the MOD looked at the kind of adjustments that are already being required as a result of running down military bases across Northern Ireland?”
“I cannot compare Aldergrove with other bases here in England, but I have toured the base on a number of occasions and seen its excellent facilities, which include not only workshops, hangars and mechanical resources, but excellent domestic housing facilities for service staff. After hearing about the conditions in which service staff are forced to live at some bases in this part of the United Kingdom, one must ask how far the total costs and benefits of the Aldergrove site were considered. How much of a business case was made and was Aldergrove compared with other sites in England before the decision was taken? I have no doubt that there are economies of scale in bringing all those activities together, but, as my hon. Friend has asked, was a business case worked out for sourcing work done in England and bringing it to Northern Ireland?”
“Friend the Member for South Antrim has mentioned, a decision about the Massereene site in Antrim has been made, and that will, of course, lead to reduced spending power as a result of a decrease in employment there. The loss of a population of about 1,100 people plus the civilian jobs that pump money into the local economy will have a downward multiplier effect at a time when changes and decisions are already being made in relation to public employment in the area by the Northern Ireland Executive. The proposal will also have a sudden impact on local schools because a number of nearby schools are heavily dependent upon children from the base at Aldergrove.”
“I also recognise that the Northern Ireland economy needs to change—both speakers this morning have referred to that. The Executive of the Northern Ireland Assembly have prioritised moving away from public sector dependence to greater private sector involvement. That transition period will cause pain. The Executive already have grand plans to cut the public sector in Northern Ireland—for example, reviews of public administration, doing away with quangos, amalgamating councils and so on. That will move resources towards the private sector, but if on top of that, Northern Ireland receives a disproportionate reduction in public service employment from central Government at Westminster, the transition period will be made much more difficult and some areas will be badly hit. As my hon.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) on securing this debate about an important issue in his constituency. The proposal will also have a spill-over effect on my constituency, because many of those employed in the civilian work force at Aldergrove live in the East Antrim area—indeed, a number of people have already come to my office to talk about the blow caused by the announcement. I would like the Minister to respond to a number of points. The fact that the announcement was made by written statement perhaps did not provide the opportunity for a closer examination of the decision and this debate at least gives the Minister the opportunity to respond to the relevant points that have been made. I recognise that defence needs and public spending priorities change.”
“I do not think that something as important as this would have been done without consultation in an English constituency. For the Member for the area to hear about the matter on the news, rather than there being prior consultation, and for things to be done outside the normal parliamentary procedure—it is fortuitous that we have this debate today—has been regrettable and causes people in Northern Ireland to believe that sometimes they are an afterthought in these decisions, rather than part and parcel of the proper way in which governmental decisions should be made. I hope that that is not because there are no votes for the Government party in Northern Ireland and that it is therefore felt that Northern Ireland can be disregarded.”
“I am sure that there is considerable economic potential in the longer run, with the development of Aldergrove airport and the plans for the area around it, but given the changes that are already occurring in the Northern Ireland economy, the decision that we are discussing will have a detrimental short-term impact. I believe that it is to lead to facilities being relocated to less desirable facilities elsewhere in the United Kingdom and that efficiency will suffer. If the Minister can tell me differently and show us that the costs have been carefully considered and that there are considerable benefits, I suppose that we will have to examine those figures, but the decision has been a blow. I think that the decision is indicative of the way in which the Government at Westminster sometimes treat Northern Ireland.”
“That will happen only if the base does not have to go out at market rates and if the commitment that the Government made to turn over many of these bases as an asset to the Northern Ireland Executive is fulfilled and the promise kept. There are many other such bases. In the long run, the contraction of the RAF may mean that there is no use for the base at Aldergrove. The adjustment over time is important. That time adjustment may well lead to the base being made redundant in the very long term, but the current reduction, coming at a time when we have had all the other reductions in the armed services in Northern Ireland, is a reduction too far.”
“The local economy has suffered as a result of those necessary adjustments, but the adjustments to Aldergrove are not necessary—particularly if no cost-benefit analysis was done to see how money or work could be reallocated to Northern Ireland to offset some of the cuts that have already been made. In the long term, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Campbell) has pointed out, some military bases could be used to regenerate local economies. The Minister has received considerable representations about the base in Omagh, which people wish to use for an educational facility, bringing together five of the schools in the area.”
“That is exactly my point. I understand the run-down and that there is no point in keeping bases that were purely needed for the service personnel who dealt with the troubles. However, it is gratuitous that on top of the necessary removal of bases that are no longer needed because of the greater normality in Northern Ireland, reductions are to be made to a base that has existed for a long, long time and that has provided a service not directly related to the troubles. Again, the Ministry of Defence should have taken into consideration the fact that we have already borne a sizeable reduction in personnel and bases in Northern Ireland.”
“Indeed. I hope that it is not the case that people feel that Northern Ireland can be disregarded in that way because the governing party at present is not organised in that part of the United Kingdom. We are part of the United Kingdom. We believe that we should be treated in the same way as any other part of the United Kingdom and that, when major announcements such as this are being made, a proper consultation process should be undertaken.”
“Given the zealousness with which some police officers have pursued those who do exactly as the hon. Gentleman describes, does he not accept that, despite the guidance and the high threshold, both of which the Minister has talked about, there is a danger that prosecutions will be started? The impact of those prosecutions will be to silence people who, according to the Minister, should not be silenced and whom the law is not intended to silence.”
“I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from, but will he therefore outline the Liberal Democrats’ position on buying in power from other countries? When there is a need to supplement peak load, would his party oppose buying in from countries that supply power through nuclear power stations?”
“Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs have announced job cuts in Northern Ireland that amount to a 25 per cent. reduction in the work force—twice as great as the reduction that will occur in the rest of the United Kingdom. That will have an impact on women, on provincial towns and, most importantly, the ability to take on fuel laundering and construction fraud in Northern Ireland. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate in the House so that we can discuss how HMRC will live up to the promise made by the Secretary of State that there will no let-up on fuel-laundering fraud in Northern Ireland?”
“The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point that resonates with many of us from Northern Ireland. However, does he not also accept that almost any piece of terrorist legislation will be interpreted in exactly the way he has described by those who wish to use it as a propaganda tool?”
“I wanted to intervene on an earlier point made by the hon. and learned Gentleman. Much has been made of the parallel that has been drawn between the limit of 42 days and the lessons learned from internment in Northern Ireland. Does he not accept that internment in Northern Ireland in the 1970s was totally different from the focused 42-day detention of particular individuals who might have been caught carrying out terrorist offences? The lessons that can be learned are therefore very limited.”
“Last week the security forces in Northern Ireland were on high alert for a Real IRA offensive. At the same time, four BBC journalists were arrested in the presence of leading Real IRA activists on their way to a promotion of a show of strength. Given that the BBC is a publicly funded body, will the Leader of the House make time for a debate, so that the House can join the Chief Constable in expressing outrage at the BBC promoting terrorism at a time when we are trying to bury it in Northern Ireland, and at its pursuing sensational stories instead of pursuing stability in Northern Ireland?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that bizarre arguments were made in the Chamber by the two Back-Bench Members who opposed an inquiry, especially as they could not say where we should draw the line, and which obnoxious regimes we would tolerate and which we would decide to send the armed forces in to topple?”
“I appreciate many of the points that the hon. Gentleman is making, but given the tenacity of terrorism in our society—I look at the situation in Northern Ireland where, for 35 years, terrorists were able to hold the country to ransom—does the hon. Gentleman accept that if, as he argued, we cannot have an inquiry until there is a cessation of hostilities, it could be 30 years before we ever examine some of the events that we are discussing?”
“Farmers in Northern Ireland, along with pig farmers in other parts of the United Kingdom, have been badly affected by the increase in world grain prices. One of the influencing factors has been the increase in demand for grain because of the demand for biofuels. The Government’s own chief scientist indicated that the Government’s target of biofuels forming 5 per cent. of fuel used by 2010 needs to be reconsidered. Given the effect on food prices, farming and, ironically, deforestation, have the Government any plans to look again at that ill-advised target?”
“Last week the Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), attacked that wonderful British institution, the last night of the proms, on the grounds that it did not make everyone feel at ease. I have received many letters from constituents who enjoyed the BBC’s presentation of the event last year in Carrickfergus in my constituency, when people from all walks of life and of all ages experienced a magnificent night against the background of Carrickfergus castle. Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate so that the Minister can explain her remarks, which seem to be at variance with the views of the Prime Minister, the House and millions of people?”
“Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that for many pensioners, some of whom have a small private pension, who now face the loss of the 10 per cent. income tax band, the extra money made available for this year’s winter fuel payment will be more than offset by the tax loss?”
“This problem has been thrown into sharp relief in Northern Ireland because of the high levels of duty that are imposed by the Exchequer here in the United Kingdom, compared with the much lower rates imposed in the Irish Republic. That makes it very difficult for the haulage firms along the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic to survive.”
“While I do not think that any of us would question the use of PFI, the point that needs to be made is that when PFI schemes and the borrowing for Northern Rock are included, the levels of debt are actually much higher than are shown in the Red Book. That—rather than an attack on PFI schemes generally—is the important point that is being made.”
“Members imply that if we do not keep faith with the EU and the treaty we will be pushed back into a world war: apparently we will be at Germany’s throat, we will be fighting the French, or we will be after the Spanish. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) implied that if we do not vote for the Bill, somehow or other paedophiles will run free around Europe, guns will be all over the place, and we will not even get a European spaceship.”
“Members have put it on the record again, that the sort of language used in the document has been chosen because it is important for the content and the real intent to be hidden in some way. The Prime Minister of Luxembourg said: “Britain is different. Of course there will be a transfer of sovereignty”— it does not matter what is said here; those who do not want to highlight the transfer of sovereignty will try to hide it— “But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to the fact?” Of course he would not, not when there is a sceptical public in the United Kingdom. The other reason suggested for why the arguments against the treaty should not be listened to is that we are “scaremongering”. It is difficult to take lectures about scaremongering when hon.”
“They are all on the record as saying, “This is a constitution. This is the same as the document that we negotiated previously, with very little difference.” The second argument is that the treaty does not represent a massive transfer of power—but let me mention some of the ways in which there is a transfer of power: the setting up of new EU institutions; the weakening of the UK power to block legislation; the reduction of national vetoes on votes in Europe; the new EU powers on health, social security and trade policy; and a legal toolbox for further changes, which is perhaps the most damaging aspect, because there can be more changes without us considering them in this form again. We are told, and many hon.”
“Indeed, as the hon. Gentleman said, let us see what the Dutch, the French and the Danish have said about this, but they, of course, have an interest in playing down the constitutional aspect of the document because they have populations that have made it clear that they will not tolerate a constitution. Two of those countries have voted against it. Twelve of the other countries have no axe to grind—they have not had a referendum—and seem to have no great concerns about whether it is a constitutional treaty. I am not going to put their views on the record again, because over the weeks of debate on this subject, hon. Members have put on the record what all of those other 12 countries, the original author of the constitution, the European Parliament and the European Commission have said.”
“However, as late as June last year, when the negotiations had been going on for some time—I suspect that the Government were aware of what was likely to be agreed and what was not—the Prime Minister was still saying: “The manifesto is what we put to the public. We’ve got to honour that manifesto. That is an issue of trust for me with the electorate.” Even in the middle of the negotiations, the Prime Minister was still saying that the manifesto pledge was a matter of trust with the electorate, yet that has now been broken. I have listened to the arguments that have been made over the days of debate, and again today. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) and the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) were telling us that we had nothing to worry about because this was not a constitution.”
“I imagine that at the end of tonight’s debate I will probably be on the losing side after going through the Lobby with those who, as has been the case many times during these debates, find themselves on the right side of the argument but on the wrong side of the vote. That is sad. I believe that the vote this Parliament took last week on the referendum, and that which I suspect will be taken tonight on the treaty itself, will do irreparable damage to our own image, the powers of this Parliament and our country. It is clear that there is a distance between a large number of Members of this Parliament and the electorate, to whom Members promised there would be a referendum when this constitution was finally arranged. I know that many arguments have been made to the effect that this is not a constitution, but simply a treaty.”
“Maybe they should. Space would be a good place to send them. Let me consider just two of the so-called scare stories that have been put around. One is that the powers of the EU institutions have been exaggerated. The amazing thing is that we only have to ask the following question: if we have nothing to worry about from the setting up of an EU institution with a president, a Foreign Minister and a diplomatic corps, why did the Government oppose it in the first place?”
““We recommend that the Government should publicly acknowledge the significance of the foreign policy aspects of the Lisbon Treaty.” Even a Labour-dominated Committee of this House was prepared to accept that there is something in the treaty that the Government had said they did not want, but which they had got. The Government then said, “It doesn’t matter because we’re not really concerned about it,” and told us that we were scaremongering.”
“The hon. Gentleman can use whatever name he wants for the Foreign Minister, the president and the diplomatic corps, but they still exist. Let me quote the Foreign Affairs Committee. It has a Labour majority, and the Labour Government are trying to sell us the idea that there is nothing to worry about. The FAC says that “the Government risks underestimating, and certainly is downplaying in public, the importance and potential of the new foreign policy institutions established by the Lisbon Treaty, namely the new High Representative”— I do not care what the person is called; he is a Foreign Minister— “and the European External Action Service”— the European diplomatic service.”
“New article 122 states: “Without prejudice to any other procedures provided for in the Treaties, the Council, on a proposal from the Commission, may decide, in a spirit of solidarity between Member States, upon the measures appropriate to the economic situation, in particular if severe difficulties arise in the supply of certain products, notably in the area of energy.” To me, that leaves open the possibility of redirecting energy around the EU in severe situations.”
“Here is the other myth that is being spread around—that all the decisions will be made on a basis of unanimity. There are 11 areas in which a qualified majority vote will be sufficient. Indeed, the very leverage to which the hon. Gentleman refers has been severely weakened. Let me take another example, which was given by the Foreign Secretary. On the environment, he said that a scare story was going around that the EU, at a time of crisis, would redirect gas and so on from the UK to other parts of the EU.”