Sammy Wilson
MP for East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · United Kingdom
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The Foreign Secretary has said that his concern is for the behaviour of some settlers on the west bank, and I think we all share that, but does he accept that the fear of losing votes to the Green party and the independent Members on the Bench behind me is also…”
“It is a sad state of affairs when ordinary people feel compelled to take direct action against illegal immigration into our country as a result of successive Governments failing to stop the invasion of our country by illegal immigrants, aided by criminal gangs.”
“The Chancellor has rightly identified trade frictions as a major impediment to economic growth. As a result of the Windsor framework, the internal market in the UK has been severely disrupted by EU-imposed restrictions on trade, which mean customs unions, mountains of paperwork and physical barriers. What steps does the right hon.”
“We would not need these regulations were it not for EU regulations having to apply to a certain part of the United Kingdom because it is regarded as part of the EU, regardless of the democratic vote of the British people to leave the EU. This is not about protecting biodiversity.”
“Because they are now subject to all these additional regulations. If they do not abide by those regulations—we have already seen this—those goods can be seized, destroyed, re-exported or detained by DAERA in Northern Ireland. That is not something which is just a maybe; it happens currently.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alec. The Minister outlined why these regulations were necessary and gave what, to most on the Committee, would be an acceptable argument: they are to protect biodiversity in Northern Ireland and to ensure that diseased plants are not accessing the Northern Ireland market.”
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“For a long time, the French, because of their oil interests in Burma, lobbied to have that country admitted to ASEAN and tried to stop sanctions on oil and gas investment. Only recently, it made available more than $400 million-worth of currency through deals to the Burmese regime. I should like the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to say when she replies to the debate whether she believes that EU sanctions have been somewhat softened by the reluctance of France, because of its economic interests, to see strong pressure applied to Burma. Mention has been made of the pressure that could be put on China and the ASEAN countries. I believe that pressure is already building on them. The instability in that part of the world benefits neither the ASEAN countries nor China.”
“There is a salient warning for us in all of this. I spoke in a debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly on Burma a couple of weeks ago, and I commented on the role of the Chinese. It was reported on, I did an interview, and afterwards a Chinese friend said to me, “It is very good that you stand and condemn the Chinese Government for their attitude towards Burma. But look at Europe. Look at yourselves and ask whether Britain and Europe, when it is in their economic interests, do not turn a blind eye to some of the human rights abuses in the countries with which you trade?” Indeed, hon. Members have made that point already. Why will the Government not name those companies that trade with Burma, so that citizens of this country can decide whether they want to trade with those companies?”
“I can understand why the Chinese, for example, might feel that they have some economic justification for not leaning too hard on Burma. They rely on Burma for fuel; 40 hydroelectric power schemes are financed by the Chinese, 17 oil and gas fields are being exploited by them and a 1,500-mile gas and oil pipeline is being built. They also want naval bases and other monitoring stations on the Indian ocean. The ASEAN countries have behaved in exactly the same way. There is a certain irony in the fact that, at a time when monks were gunned down and protesters arrested, the Indian Government were in Burma, signing a deal to explore for oil and gas. It would appear that the economic interests of India, which needs fuel for its economic development, have overcome its desire to see justice done for the citizens of Burma.”
“One thing that strikes me in all this is that even as the sanctions were announced, the regime in Burma was arresting more people. It is still refusing the Red Cross access to prisons. New reports are coming out of further abuses of prisoners, and the regime is so confident that it can ride out the storm that it has even announced the latest auction for the sale of gemstones, which could net it somewhere in the region of $100 million—a very important source of foreign currency at a time when economic pressure has been put on the country. One of the reasons why such things are happening is that although actions have been taken and sanctions have been imposed by the countries I mentioned, the countries that can really bring pressure to bear on the Burmese regime have not, to date, shown that they disapprove in any way.”
“Although many Members expressed reservations about the effectiveness of those actions or how far the Government have gone, it is nevertheless important that we take the issue seriously as a country, and put pressure on the United Nations and directly on the regime to give hope to those who find themselves oppressed. As a result of that pressure, we are seeing more concerted action, whether it is from Australia, which is now taking action with regard to the bank accounts of some of the members of the regime; Japan, which used to be supportive of the regime and has now withdrawn investment for the building of a university; or the United States, which has taken action with regard to visas, bank accounts and the purchase of gemstones.”
“They know that the spotlight that shines from such debates, and the actions generated by them, will ensure that their dark deeds are exposed and that the sort of activities in which they engage against their own citizens will not go unnoticed. I wanted to take part in the debate for that reason. Moreover, Members from England, Scotland and Wales have spoken, and I want to make it clear that representatives from the whole United Kingdom see this issue as one of concern. The abuses of the Burmese regime have been well highlighted, illustrated and documented in the debate and I do not want to take up time by adding to that. However, I welcome the outline given to us at the start of the debate regarding the Government’s actions.”
“Since becoming a Member of this House a couple of years ago, I have found that despite all the cynicism we might have about this country, which is sometimes engendered by our own behaviour in the House and by the comments of journalists and commentators, the letters I receive and the lobby groups I meet at Westminster make it clear that this country and its Parliament are often a beacon of hope for oppressed people throughout the world, shining for them and showing them that people in a democracy care about their plight. Sometimes in the darkness of their oppression they can feel that they are forgotten, so it is important that we are having this debate today. The debate is also important because, just as Parliament is a beacon of hope to those people, it is a cause for concern to oppressive regimes.”
“I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate. Perhaps I shall not bring to it the same detailed knowledge and passion we heard from the hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow)—and others, in case he thinks that I am the second member of his fan club here today. Anyone listening to the passion and detail with which he described events could be nothing but moved. It illustrated why it is important to have such debates in this place, and leads me to one of the reasons why I wanted to take part.”
“That is important because if members of the regime believe that they can ride the pressure, they will continue to do as they have been doing. We will get reaction and movement from them only if they know that the democracies of the world are determined to ensure that they behave properly towards their citizens.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and I want to finish with a plea to the Government to ensure that the stakes are raised and that pressure is applied to Burma. From my experience, I know that, whether one is dealing with local terrorism such as we experienced in Northern Ireland or the state-sponsored terrorism on a grander scale that we see in Burma, terrorists always hope that people will cry and shout about the last atrocity and then forget it. The one message that the debate must convey at the end of the parliamentary Session is that, in the next Session and for as long as it takes, the spotlight will be placed on the iniquitous regime and that pressure, including sanctions on individual members of the junta, and the threat that, some day, internationally, justice will catch up with them, will be applied.”
“The gloom that was evident on the faces of the Members behind the Chancellor today when he talked about the pre-Budget report will be reflected in Northern Ireland. It is predicted that growth will fall by 50 per cent and that growth in public expenditure in Northern Ireland will be 1.2 per cent, as against the 1.9 per cent. generally that is announced in the report. That will have an impact on the economy. In light of that, will the Chancellor consider proposals to change fiscal policies, for example, in Northern Ireland, which will help the Northern Ireland Executive to grow the private economy to fill the gap left by the reduction in public spending?”
“The Secretary of State will be well aware of the almost total opposition of Northern Ireland football supporters to the siting of the stadium at the Maze. He will also be aware of the total opposition of Unionists to the provision of a shrine to hunger strikers at the Maze—something that is already happening, promoted by Sinn Fein. Will he give an assurance that no agreements made in the past by direct rule Ministers or actions taken by direct rule Ministers in the future will limit the ability of the Executive and the Assembly in Northern Ireland to be the final arbiters of what happens to the Maze site and the location of the national stadium?”
“The Minister set forward the aim of creating more affordable homes, but does she not recognise that there are a number of contradictions in the Green Paper? The standards that will be required—higher standards and new designs and technologies—will involve extra upfront costs. The green spaces that will be required for greener homes and green spaces will involve less intensive land use. All those factors, along with the fact that the £3 billion is not even an extra £3 billion, will make it very difficult to deliver homes that are more affordable and not more costly.”
“What plans does he have for discussions with the Minister for Social Development and the Minister for Employment and Learning to ensure that some of these ideas are passed on?”
“I also welcome the Government’s attempt to tackle the hard edge of the unemployment problem. It appears that two approaches will be adopted. The first is the emphasis on the private sector in providing skills, guaranteeing interviews and, indeed, guaranteeing 250,000 jobs. Is the Secretary of State assured that the private sector has the capacity to do that, and that the capacity is located at the hard edge and in the same places as the bulk of those affected? Secondly, given the public commitment to a flexible new deal approach and the wrap-around care provision, what public resources will be devoted to that? The Secretary of State will know that Northern Ireland is one of the areas with a big problem with long-term unemployment.”
“Will she allow a debate on the Floor of the House to discuss the concerns about the Office of the Police Ombudsman and to consider how some degree of accountability might be built into the office to ensure that those with grievances have some way of airing them?”
“On behalf of the Democratic Unionist party, I congratulate the Leader of the House on her appointment. There is grave concern in Northern Ireland over the role of the Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and especially over how the office has dealt with inquiries into former members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Pending arrests have been published to the media and have taken place in a blaze of publicity. Officers who have been detained have sometimes been denied drugs and medication while in custody. In the past, the office tried to bury a report that showed that 50 per cent. of police officers have no confidence in it.”
“What discussions does he intend to have with the Ministers for Employment and Learning and for Education to ensure that the parts of the package that might not apply to students from Northern Ireland will be replicated in Northern Ireland through the Department there?”
“First, may I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and welcome his first statement? It is essential to raise aspirations among youngsters from low-income families and to remove the financial impediments that there may be for them to access higher education. The Secretary of State is probably aware—this may be uncomfortable for the Labour party and some members of the Conservative party—that because of Northern Ireland’s excellent grammar school system and the retention of academic selection, 25 per cent. more youngsters from low-income families gain admission to higher education. In light of that, and the fact that many of them will go to universities in Scotland, England and Wales, will he tell us which measures will apply to youngsters from Northern Ireland, so that there is uniformity of financial provision for them?”
“The Chief Constable has pointed out that 40 per cent. of police resources are currently used to service historical inquiries into the police. The new Police Ombudsman has also pointed out that politically motivated historical inquiries into the police by the Police Ombudsman’s office are affecting political progress in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister look again at the legislation that pertains to the Police Ombudsman’s office, to remove its ability to dabble in the past so that it deals only with complaints in the future?”
“I welcome the announcement by the Secretary of State and believe that it will help to reduce some of the risks, but I have one question. In his statement the right hon. Gentleman said that there would be a presumption that the police would disclose offences when a parent comes to them and draws attention to a relationship, but there are two caveats—two ifs. Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that there are no circumstances in which, when a parent draws it to the attention of the police that they have entered into a new relationship and the police know that that relationship involves a paedophile, the offence will not be disclosed to the parents?”
“The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, but most of Sudan’s oil revenues come from China, which has made it clear that it will refuse to comply with any sanctions.”
“The hon. Member for Buckingham made it clear that the one thing that we need at this time is to put pressure on the Government in Sudan—not to pussyfoot around them, placate them or bring them along. We should make it clear that internationally they are regarded as parasites and that what they are doing is wrong and will be highlighted. There is a need for frank talking on the issue.”
“It has circulated pictures of what has happened in Darfur around churches in Northern Ireland and tried to raise the profile of what has happened to the unfortunate people of that area. The mission has made it clear—despite perhaps putting its personnel in great danger—that what is happening there is genocide and that the insecurity that has been orchestrated by Khartoum impedes its ability to deliver aid and that of other agencies. On top of that, as was pointed out graphically by the hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow), we have had a huge displacement of people. I know that the Foreign Secretary has to be careful as she is involved in delicate negotiations but despite all the evidence, the UN and those who are responsible in Government have not been prepared to come out and say openly that what we are seeing in Darfur is genocide.”
“This issue deserves the support of the whole House and we have heard speeches today that have made it quite clear that this House and the people whom we represent will not tolerate what is happening in Darfur and are deeply concerned about it. The estimates of the death toll have varied from 200,000 to 400,000. As we have heard today, it has been difficult to make estimates or get exact figures on the death toll, not least because many of the aid agencies have found it difficult to give honest reports. To a certain extent, they depend on having the good will of the Government to be able to continue to operate in the area where they are giving out aid. As we have heard today, agencies have been prepared to speak out. One in Northern Ireland has raised the profile of the issue among regular churchgoers—the Africa Inland Mission.”
“They have carried out bombings and armed the militia, and they have refused to accept any outside intervention to resolve the situation and to hand over war criminals. The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) asked why the Sudan Government believe that, despite all of that being known, they can still behave with impunity. One reason is the lack of response from the international community.”
“He talked about the indolence of the Government in Sudan. It is far worse than indolence; the Government of Sudan have bombed villages and armed the militias to go in afterwards and wipe out whoever happens to be on the ground. I have read a number of harrowing accounts—I know that the militia have been charged with this as well—of young girls being systematically raped, not by members of the Janjaweed, but by members of the Sudanese army. Rape now appears almost to be a weapon of war. Because of the implications of admitting to having been raped in a society where rape carries great shame, some victims do not admit what has happened as it might affect their chances of marriage. The Government of Sudan are deeply implicated.”
“An absolute absurdity. As has been pointed out, ultimately there must be punishment for those who have engaged in these actions. To water down what they have done might have some implications. In Northern Ireland, we have seen over 30 years what can only be described as attempts to ethnically cleanse many places; in 30 years we have seen 3,000 people killed. Had the same happened in Northern Ireland as has happened in Darfur, we would have had a death toll of 120,000 people. That is the scale of the disaster that has taken place there. The Government of Sudan have had an important role to play in this. The right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke) talked about the reticence of Front Benchers to tell things as they were, but said that Back Benchers could be a bit more forthright.”
“However, we must recognise that it might prove difficult to get sanctions through the UN as they might well be vetoed by China or Russia for different reasons. The Chinese Government have economic interests in Sudan and they are importing oil from the country. They have shown a willingness to act as protector and to supply arms to the Sudanese Government. However, that should not stop us seeking to find ways to put pressure on China to do what it should do. China initially opposed the introduction of a UN-African Union peacekeeping force. Now it has suggested not only that it will support that force, but that it will contribute some engineers to help it. That movement and change is the consequence of pressure, and it must continue to be applied.”
“However, if we are serious about taking that message to the Sudanese Government—or putting the pressure on them, as the hon. Member for Buckingham said—such small matters are as important as tabling UN resolutions in favour of international sanctions. Members have mentioned many of the things that must be done. First, we must try to get international sanctions imposed on the Sudanese Government—to hit them where it hurts so that they cannot get the revenue to pay for the weapons to carry out the war and the genocide. I believe that there has been some movement. That is probably due to the fact that the Chinese Government are now getting nervous about the amount of pressure being applied and the talk of disrupting the Olympics.”
“From a recent written parliamentary answer it appears that the UK is still training troops for the Sudanese army, which has been engaged in the campaign against the people in Darfur. We have also twice admitted the head of Sudanese military intelligence to the UK for medical treatment. Dallex Trade aeroplanes that have been registered in London have been clearly identified as supplying arms into the Darfur region, but I do not know what action we have taken against that company. It is one thing to say that we must tell the Sudanese Government that they will face the consequences. The matters I have mentioned might appear to be fairly inconsequential—it might be said that only a few troops are being trained, that only one company or plane has been identified, that only one general has come for medical treatment.”
“Also, some western Governments fail to do so because of the support given by Sudanese military intelligence in the war against terror. The Foreign Secretary said that we must be aware of the implications for regional and international stability. The fact is that, for a variety of reasons, the Sudanese Government believe that they can act with impunity. The Foreign Secretary said that we must make it clear to the Sudanese Government that they will face consequences if they do not bring an end to the killing and conflict. However, although there have been fine words, let us consider the record of our Government in making clear to the Sudanese Government the consequences that they will have to face. As has been pointed out, contradictory answers have been given, even on the Government’s attitude to an arms embargo.”
“I entirely agree. The United Nations has a responsibility to protect, but it cannot even agree that what is happening in Darfur is genocide because genocidal intent appears to be missing; that is what the UN has stated. Given the amount of people being killed and the fact that the killing is confined to a particular area of Sudan and that the victims tend to be of a particular colour and to come from certain clans, I fail to understand why the UN does not accuse the Sudanese Government of genocide. Other international players fail to do so for their own reasons. China fails to do so for economic reasons, and Russia does not do so because it wants its policies and stances to be different from those of the west.”
“I hope that we will see robust action and movement by the Government to ensure that those parties who have dragged their heels and led the Sudanese Government not to feel under pressure will themselves be put under pressure, so that this situation can be resolved.”
“That development would at least stop the Sudanese Government using the rhetoric that any outside peacekeeping force is the west trying to impose an invading army on another part of the Muslim world. Such developments must be explored, at least to defuse that kind of argument, which the Sudanese Government might use. Finally, in the long run we must make sure that those who are guilty of crimes in Sudan are brought before the International Criminal Court. If we get an agreement, we must make sure that it is quickly underwritten with international support, so that the resource problems that caused the conflict in the first place do not arise again and the conflict is not re-ignited. There is general agreement on what must be done.”
“I appreciate the clarification, and I acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman did not in his speech shirk from criticising the Sudanese Government for the role that they have played in the terrible situation in Darfur. There is evidence that other bodies might be used to try to broker an agreement. We must address not only the Sudanese Government, but the various factions in Darfur. Perhaps Egypt or the Government in southern Sudan should be encouraged to put pressure on each of the factions to come together and reach an agreement that will stick. Such diplomatic pressure is important. As has been pointed out, a peacekeeping force can only play a role if there is a peace to keep. It is also helpful that China and Egypt have suggested that they are prepared to contribute troops to that peacekeeping force.”
“The provision of books to the academies is important in the delivery of education, but does the Minister accept that the role played by grammar schools in East Anglia and across the UK is important in providing choice and good education opportunities? The party to my right has now embraced the Government’s policy on city academies—doing a not-so-elegant somersault on grammar schools and using rhetoric with which the Sinn Fein Minister in Northern Ireland would be quite pleased—but will the Minister assure us that he will not use that change of heart as a smokescreen for launching further attacks on grammar schools?”
“Is the Minister aware that up to 40 per cent. of police resources available for investigating serious crime can be diverted into historic inquiries, many of which originate from the Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, which many believe is engaged in a witch hunt against former members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary? Does the Minister agree with the Superintendents Association of Northern Ireland, which says that perhaps now is the time to draw a line under the past and concentrate police resources on current policing needs, rather than on those politically motivated inquiries?”
“Does the hon. Lady agree that there is a certain degree of hypocrisy and irony in what has been said given that the Labour party imposed PR elections on people in Northern Ireland for the simple reason that they said it would lead to a fairer result?”
“For example, the circumstances might change in relation to the original reasons given in the motion that was put before the House. Of course, the longer the motion, the more justification there will be and the more opportunity there is to say that circumstances have changed. Alternatively, a change in circumstances could mean a change in the pace or the nature of the military intervention. If the change was to the pace or nature of the military intervention, would we be starting to intervene in operational and command decisions, and would that be good for the security of the troops or the execution of the war? Indeed, is the House qualified to make such an intervention?”
“Some said that the motion should be as short as possible; others said that the motion should be as long as possible. The longer the motion, the greater the justification that will be contained within it. If one of the reasons given for going to war is shown not to pertain any longer, does that call into question the decision and does it provide a chance for the debate to be rerun? That brings me to the last point that I want to make. How often should the vote take place? Would it simply take place at the very start, whenever that start happened to be—and at the moment, that is not clear—or, as the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe said, must there be ratification of the approval should circumstances change? What constitutes a change in circumstances could vary.”
“If a decision is sought simply to get the view of Parliament, rather than to get approval for a war, perhaps there will be less reticence about giving the intelligence. But if we are talking about a crucial decision—a decision to approve a war—it becomes more important that the Government get the right decision and so the intelligence might be spun or curtailed in some way. There have been a number of suggestions about how that situation might be overcome, but, again, even those who support the principle recognise the massive difficulties that a vote in the House is likely to create when it comes to having the full information. There were also some doubts among the believers about the motion that should be put before the House.”
“So, although we started off by saying that we need full knowledge to make a decision, we reached a situation in which we would be given the conclusions of the legal opinion. Another point that was made was that the decision should be made on the basis of the raw intelligence data. Other Members—even those who support the proposal—have said that at times it will not be possible to have the full intelligence, because it may compromise sources and the work that we are already doing on the ground. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) said that the more important the decision, the less willing the Government may be to hand over the intelligence or the more likely it may be that the intelligence will be spun.”
“Another doubt that I have is about the basis on which the decision would be made. The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe quite rightly said that the decision must be taken in full knowledge of all the relevant information. The relevant pieces of information that he suggested included the legal opinion. But even he had to concede that, if the full legal opinion were to be made available, the Attorney-General might well be reticent about giving it. He might draw back when thinking about some of the information he could give. The right hon. and learned Gentleman came to the conclusion that perhaps only the conclusions of the legal opinion should be made available.”
“If such a vote is required by law and military action is taken without it, what will be the legal implications for the people who take part in the action? As Iraq has shown us, lawyers are always happy to intervene and put soldiers through the court system. Even where it is possible to have a vote, there is still the question of when the vote should be taken and there has been considerable debate in the House about that today. If we take it too early, we are provoking a situation; if we take it too late, it is a fait accompli. It is quite clear that some of those who describe themselves as believers, or as sinners who have come to repentance, still have some doubts about the circumstances in which the vote should be taken, even if they agree on the principle of the vote.”
“There could be circumstances in which we would not want to have a vote, because it might escalate the situation. As we intervene in more countries, we realise that although troops may go in with one purpose sometimes things change. Initially, troops may have been sent as peacekeepers or to help in a disaster or a rescue mission, but the situation escalates. When troops are sucked into such situations, must they wait for Parliament’s permission before they react, or should military action be taken without Parliament’s approval? It has been suggested that only a substantial deployment should need a vote in Parliament, but it was not clear whether the deployment should be substantial in terms of manpower or firepower. Initially, an intervention might require few troops, but events could escalate. At what stage is the vote to be taken?”
“There are two guiding principles. The first is to ensure that whatever decision is made this country always has the ability to defend itself and its security is not impaired. Secondly, when we go to war, the morale of the troops we send should not be undermined in any way. The course of the debate has given me some reason to doubt whether those principles will be upheld. Members have admitted that it will not always be possible to vote on taking military action. In response to interventions from the Opposition Back Benches, even the proposer of the motion indicated that sometimes circumstances would be thrust upon us and immediate action would be needed, so only an Executive decision could be made. Sometimes, the option to vote will not be available to us.”
“The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) commented that he was happy to hear all the believers who were speaking in the debate, but that he was even happier that so many unbelievers had repented—presumably before the debate, although we have even heard Members confessing that they have seen the light during it. I remain one of the doubters. That is not a natural position for me, because knowing that as a member of a minority party I shall always be confined to the Back Benches I obviously have an interest in an increased role for Parliament. Furthermore, my natural distrust of the Executive has been reinforced by some of their decisions and behaviour over the years, so I believe that there is a need to pull power back to Parliament, as the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) said.”
“If we are going to have such proposals, all the points that have been made today must be fully investigated and addressed so that we do not finish up with a situation in which simply exercising parliamentary freedom affects the people whom we send out to do our fighting overseas.”
“However, there probably is a desire in the House to drive this forward. I will judge the proposals, first, on whether they will affect this country’s ability to defend itself; secondly, on whether they will impede the security of forces in the field and be detrimental to them; thirdly, on whether they will curtail the ability of commanders in the field to exercise their operational discretion; and, fourthly, on whether they will have an effect on the morale of our soldiers whom we send out to difficult theatres of war. I will make my judgment, but I remain a doubter.”