Sammy Wilson
MP for East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · United Kingdom
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The Foreign Secretary has said that his concern is for the behaviour of some settlers on the west bank, and I think we all share that, but does he accept that the fear of losing votes to the Green party and the independent Members on the Bench behind me is also…”
“It is a sad state of affairs when ordinary people feel compelled to take direct action against illegal immigration into our country as a result of successive Governments failing to stop the invasion of our country by illegal immigrants, aided by criminal gangs.”
“The Chancellor has rightly identified trade frictions as a major impediment to economic growth. As a result of the Windsor framework, the internal market in the UK has been severely disrupted by EU-imposed restrictions on trade, which mean customs unions, mountains of paperwork and physical barriers. What steps does the right hon.”
“We would not need these regulations were it not for EU regulations having to apply to a certain part of the United Kingdom because it is regarded as part of the EU, regardless of the democratic vote of the British people to leave the EU. This is not about protecting biodiversity.”
“Because they are now subject to all these additional regulations. If they do not abide by those regulations—we have already seen this—those goods can be seized, destroyed, re-exported or detained by DAERA in Northern Ireland. That is not something which is just a maybe; it happens currently.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alec. The Minister outlined why these regulations were necessary and gave what, to most on the Committee, would be an acceptable argument: they are to protect biodiversity in Northern Ireland and to ensure that diseased plants are not accessing the Northern Ireland market.”
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“I shall come on to the issue of rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy. My understanding is that it is in keeping with the Northern Ireland Executive’s programme for government, namely that we cannot for ever remain as dependent upon the public sector as we are at present. There must be a rebalancing, so that we have a structured economy that allows for greater private sector involvement and, therefore, leaves us less open to the dangers of what has had to be done today. I do believe that what has been announced today will be very detrimental to the Northern Ireland economy in the short term. However, let me turn to what we were looking for in the Budget. We want a Budget that is effective at getting us out of the current economic situation.”
“The hon. Gentleman is leading me on to my second point, which is about fairness, but let me finish this point first. I have described the two sides of the argument. It is a subjective assessment, because the report before us does not present any conclusive evidence to the effect that the financial markets are so nervous that we have to take such deep, draconian action at this stage. Neither is there an assurance that the reduction in the amount of money that is going into the economy as a result of public spending cuts will not have an impact on economic growth.”
“The right hon. Gentleman quotes the figure for spending, not the figures for taxation or, indeed, those relating to bringing down the deficit. That money was borrowed to be pumped back into the economy, so the amount of money going into the economy will be substantially less. This is a subjective assessment, because the report does not give us any clear picture of what the likely impact will be. At least we now have an independent body reporting on whether these measures will be effective, but only time will tell as to whether the risk that has been taken today will pay off and will balance the economy quickly.”
“The context in which those adjustments take place is important, as is the speed at which they happen. All I am saying is that one way in which this Budget must be judged is on how effective it will be. Neither the report, nor the assurances given by the Chancellor today, offers any firm guarantee, if indeed that can be given, that the Budget will be effective.”
“The Northern Ireland Executive have made a genuine attempt to restructure the economy by using public policy and public spending, trying to build up the infrastructure, trying to get people economically active by giving them new skills and preparing them for work, and so on. The reduction in public spending will have an impact on the ability to do such things, because they required that pump-priming. We will look to see how quickly the impact of the reductions in public spending is offset by some of the proposals in the promised paper on rebalancing the economy. This is important to us, and we want to drive it forward, but it will be made more difficult by some of today’s announcements.”
“However, it will not apply to Northern Ireland, or to Scotland or Wales, but only to England. Infrastructure projects have been guaranteed spending, but none of that applies to Northern Ireland. We are promised a report in the autumn on how Northern Ireland’s economy might be rebalanced, including an examination of proposals on economic enterprise zones, a possible mechanism for changing corporation tax rates, and other economic reform options. I look forward to that paper, and I am sure that the Northern Ireland Executive will do so too, but I note that that paper is merely examining options and proposals.”
“Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) suggested, is extremely important to people in Northern Ireland. Before the election, the Prime Minister—he has tried to explain it away and qualify what he said—stressed in a “Newsnight” interview that Northern Ireland is heavily dependent on the public sector. That is a fact, but he then implied that Northern Ireland would be targeted as a result. That is one of the reasons why the alliance between the Ulster Unionist party and the Conservative party failed so miserably—I do not know how well it would have done otherwise. People in Northern Ireland were extremely nervous that we in that part of the United Kingdom were going to be treated unfairly. Under the proposals in today’s Budget, a regional fund will make money available immediately.”
“As far as I am concerned, this is not about scoring political points off the Conservative party; the Conservatives do not present any threat to us in Northern Ireland. This is all about ensuring that the citizens of the United Kingdom do not have to live in the economic doldrums for a long period. I hope that the projections that have been quoted are correct, but it is right at least to look at both sides of the argument and make an assessment on that basis. Should these measures have been delayed, or should we have jumped in as we have done? Secondly, we will judge this Budget on the basis of fairness. I look at that in two ways. First, is it fair to individuals; and secondly, is it fair to specific regions of the United Kingdom? The second point, as the hon.”
“That is related to the point that I made about the downward multiplier impact that the proposals will have on the UK economy, and particularly on the Northern Ireland economy. I am always reluctant to plead special cases, but one has to consider where Northern Ireland is in the economic cycle. We lag behind, as we are still in the downward part of the cycle. All the available indices, whether of output, employment, forward orders, investment or whatever else, show that we are still on the downward slide in the cycle. Our concern is about the impact that the attempts to restructure the economy could have, and the fact that while growth might occur in the rest of the United Kingdom, we might find ourselves still stuck in a recession because of the particular circumstances in Northern Ireland.”
“They will be powerless against a bureaucracy that seems unable to move on the issue.”
“We also have the banking levy, the change to capital gains tax for those paying the top rate of tax and the fact that the pay freeze will not apply to those at the lower end of the public sector pay scale. There has been a genuine attempt to recognise that those who are already on low incomes should not be pushed down further. On the other hand, there will be concern about the regressive nature of the VAT increase and the freezing of child benefit and tax credits. I am particularly concerned about the backdating of tax credits for one month instead of three, and I hope that the Chancellor will give us an answer about that. I hope that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will improve its performance in dealing with tax credits, otherwise many people will have an unfair result through no fault of their own.”
“I would like to see that scheme initiated quickly in Northern Ireland. I suspect that it is one of the proposals that the Liberal Democrats were keen on pushing forward. Given the rural nature of much of Northern Ireland and the particular circumstances that we face, we would welcome it. We will be interested to see the outcome of the pilot scheme and how quickly it is rolled out across the rest of the UK, if at all. I turn to fairness for individuals, on which there are things to be welcomed in the Budget. I suppose that at the end of the day, it will all be about balance. I am pleased to see that the pledge to restore the link between earnings and pensions has been honoured. For many pensioners who find themselves in difficulty, that will be an important gain.”
“For that, there must be an ability to plan, so that we can look forward and see how that money can best be put to use and how Departments might work together to get more services from the available money. That can be done only if there is certainty, so I appeal for the information that regional Assemblies require to be given to them quickly.”
“Because of the neglect of the previous Government, there was no comprehensive spending review announcement for the previous year, so we are planning in a vacuum. It is important that information be made available quickly to regional Assemblies as to what the impact on their departmental expenditure limits is likely to be, so that effective planning can take place. There is nothing worse than asking Departments to deal with difficult economic circumstances and then giving them a list of parameters and assumptions that are so vague that is almost impossible for them to make any long-term decisions. If less money is going to be available, it has to be used more effectively.”
“Not only are those the families whose circumstances are most liable to change, they are often the ones who find it the most difficult to deal with the bureaucratic maze that they face when making applications. I should like to hear from the Chancellor what proposals are in place to ensure more efficient processing of claims. The final thing that I am looking for in the Budget is some certainty, particularly about its impact on Northern Ireland. We have been told that there will be a 25% cut in departmental expenditure limits over the next four years, but that it will not apply evenly and some Departments and areas of Government spending will be hit more than others. In Northern Ireland, we have now started the budget process.”
“Is the right hon. Gentleman not a bit concerned that the Government now accept that the European Union perhaps has the right to scrutinise the budgets of euro countries before those budgets are implemented? Does he not believe that that could be the thin end of the wedge, and that such scrutiny might eventually extend to all members of the European Union?”
“The hon. Gentleman is making some good points, but he takes his argument a little too far when he describes Government Members as economic masochists who enjoy the process. At the end of the day, their constituents will not thank them for unnecessary cuts. There is a good argument to be made, but does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the extent to which he is taking it may diminish his case?”
“I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s speech, which we are all enjoying, but does he accept that the ultimate irony in all this is that although ID cards were to remedy all of society’s ills, as he has outlined, they were to be voluntary at first? There was to be an attack on social security fraud, terrorism and criminality, but people had to volunteer for it.”
“I note the Foreign Secretary’s demand for free and unfettered access to Gaza but, in the absence of a blockade of shipping into Gaza, how does he believe that the people of Israel can be protected from the unprovoked assaults by rockets and other armaments that are being imported into Gaza by the supporters of Hamas terrorists?”
“I support the outline that the right hon. Gentleman has given for freedoms for schools, but how will he ensure that there is not too great a burden on schools when he wants to find out how they spend their money, how they are governed, whether they have raised standards, how they select pupils and a whole list of other things? How will he ensure that that does not lead to a lot of interference by his Department requiring information from schools that seek freedom?”
“I also accept that Northern Ireland cannot be exempt from what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom. Two things are essential. First, we must have a greater degree of certainty about what is going to happen with the level of cuts and reductions. That has not been the case to date. Departments need to plan ahead to see how they can deal with the reductions that are going to be made. Those reductions cannot suddenly be parachuted in—some preparations must be made.”
“I would argue, after looking at some public sector infrastructure projects in Northern Ireland, that spending now gives us better value for money. Construction costs are down by 20 per cent. Because of the state of the construction industry, we can get six schools for every five that we purchased before, or we can get extra miles of road. Indeed, were it not for public investment in Northern Ireland, the construction industry, which now has about 53 per cent. of its work coming from the public sector, would have even greater levels of unemployment than it has at present. In the past year, there has been a reduction of more than 7,000 in jobs in the construction industry, but that could have been far worse without continued public spending. I recognise, however, that that cannot go on for ever.”
“Thatcher introduced in the 1980s, or more modest, when I look at the issue from the perspective of Northern Ireland, I think that this would have been the wrong time to make them. Northern Ireland is still not out of the recession, and, while there has been a gradual upturn in other parts of the United Kingdom, unemployment is still increasing in Northern Ireland, house prices are still falling and the purchasing managers index, which shows the orders that are coming through for businesses, has fallen in Northern Ireland while it has increased elsewhere in the country. Although we will have to face the deficit, there are nevertheless good grounds for saying that the reductions should not be introduced immediately. There has been some debate about whether there is any connection between spending now and the recovery.”
“We cannot pretend, as some Members have done, and say that after the second world war we had a huge debt and waited until 2002 to pay it all off. We do not have that luxury, given the financial situation and how the banking system and financial markets will view the deficit, so we need a degree of candour with the electorate. We need also to tell the electorate that the issue will not be dealt with just by efficiencies; there will be cuts to front-line services, and we will need to look at some things that we do in the public sector and whether we should continue to do them. I hope that this does not sound contradictory, but I welcome the fact that, although we are at least now considering how we reduce the deficit, the Chancellor has not jumped in to take action and make swingeing cuts. Whether they are as deep as the cuts that Mrs.”
“The Northern Ireland Executive will benefit by about £12.1 million in Barnett consequentials, and, even though that money will be offset by additional efficiency savings of almost £122 million this year, it will nevertheless be welcomed. However, we all recognise, and have recognised during this debate, the need to reduce public borrowing. Although the Chancellor has made much of the fact that borrowing is £11 billion less than he expected, it has nevertheless increased by £20 billion since last year, and our total borrowing is now 12.6 per cent. of GDP, with interest payments amounting to the same as that which we spend on defence. We know that that situation is unsustainable, and, as the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, has pointed out, we need to be honest with people.”
“Coming from Northern Ireland, I welcome some measures, such as the delayed increase in fuel duty, which in my constituency, with its large rural area, will be welcomed by those who cannot avoid using private transport and do not have the option of public transport. The fuel duty increase would have been a huge imposition on them. Doing away with stamp duty for the first-time buyers of houses worth less than £250,000 will also be welcomed in Northern Ireland, where house prices ran well ahead of first-time buyers’ ability to enter the housing market. With almost 20 per cent. of people in Northern Ireland in fuel poverty, the additional winter fuel allowance will be welcomed, too.”
“The debate started off with an exchange between the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, who probably would like to be the Chancellor, and the shadow Business Secretary, whom many on the Opposition Benches might wish was the shadow Chancellor. But the one thing that became clear during the early exchanges in this debate was that this Budget is not the real Budget; it is a phony Budget. As the debate has developed, we have heard people talk about the hard choices that lie ahead and the difficult decisions that have to be made, but none of those difficult decisions has been made in this Budget; it is quite modest. Indeed, it contains about £1.4 billion of new measures, as opposed to the £5 billion of new measures that were in last year’s Budget.”
“This has been an enjoyable debate. Listening to the valedictory speeches from a number of well-respected Members has been a great experience. In particular, because I served under him in Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, I want to refer especially to the help that the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) has been to me as a new Member of the House, and the enjoyable time that I had under his chairmanship. Some Members are leaving public life altogether. The right hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) is now going to run part of the Celtic fringe of this great United Kingdom, and I wish him well in that.”
“I do not believe that the current situation is still sustainable, and anyway, I am a natural philosopher and my view of life is that I would rather people have their own money to spend than have it taken off them in tax increases and spent by the public sector. There is a balance to be a struck and a need for certainty, and the importance of timing cannot be overestimated. We will gain in credibility as a Parliament only if we approach the financial difficulties in an honest way, as the hon. Member for Gainsborough said. We must lay out all our cards for the public. I listened to interviews on “Newsnight” the other night, and people were saying, “Do they think we’re fools? We know that if we’re spending more in our own houses we have to cut our spending, and we know you’ve got to do it for the nation.””
“However, we still have a bonus culture in the public sector. Ironically, Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom in which, despite the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review Body, bonuses for senior civil servants were not implemented last year. That is in keeping with the approach that we need. Bonuses often take up a huge part of public sector pay and are a cause of public resentment, as well as queries as to why people are getting paid huge bonuses when Departments are not performing. It would be useful to hear the Chief Secretary’s thoughts about ongoing public sector pay negotiations and whether a pay freeze would be a way of protecting, at least to some extent, the provision of public services.”
“That brings me to my question for the Chief Secretary; I hope that we will get some answers when he replies to the debate. If the plans are there—if it is known what will happen to departmental expenditure levels—why is that information not being passed down so that proper plans can be made by Departments and, especially, devolved Administrations, and they can play their part in a constructive approach to the difficulties that face us as a nation? As the position develops—the plans that are in place may well change—why cannot information be continually fed to devolved Administrations so that they know how the situation is changing? Secondly, there are ways of protecting public services, one of which is a cap on public sector pay. I know that the Chancellor has indicated that he does not want to see pay increases of more than 1 per cent.”
“The right hon. and learned Gentleman has rightly pointed out that all the arguments in favour of AV, or moving from AV to proportional representation, are about fairness. However, we in Northern Ireland know that when such a system is used not only for electing people but subsequently for forming a Government, we are left with a Government who are divided and indecisive. Rather than enhancing the standing of the legislature in the eyes of the people, that indecision reduces their confidence in the system. That is the fundamental weakness of what is being proposed here tonight.”
“The hon. Gentleman is a strong advocate for the proportional representation system, but he is over-egging his argument if he thinks that it is a way of moving away from people voting on the basis of a Unionist preference or a nationalist preference, given that the vast majority do not transfer between Unionists and nationalists even in a PR election. His other central argument was that having a more proportional system, or an alternative vote system, would increase the credibility of this place. Does he accept that the credibility of this place is not based on how people are elected but on how they behave once they are elected, and that therefore a change in the electoral system would make no difference?”
“What has all that come down to now that we are actually to debate the proposals? A guillotine that, as Members have indicated, will probably not even allow us to discuss a quarter of what we need to.”
“Some scrutiny may have led to amendments that could have avoided some of the current difficulties with the working of devolved government. It is important that we have proper scrutiny of a Bill that has constitutional importance. This process started with high ideals, but before we have even got through the whole parliamentary process those ideals have been torn up. The Green Paper stated that the Government were looking for “a settlement that entrusts Parliament and the people with more power.” Yet we cannot even have a proper discussion about some of the issues in the Bill. The proposals in the Green Paper were made under headings with a high-sounding tone, such as “Limiting the powers of the executive”, “Making the executive more accountable” and “Re-invigorating our democracy”.”
“When the Minister was intervened on by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), he said that the right hon. Gentleman should know from his long experience in the House why the guillotine had to be used. However, in his short speech, and indeed in his refusal even to spell out his reasons to the right hon. Gentleman, the Minister indicated that there is not a good justification for a guillotine, especially given the nature of the Bill. As a Member from Northern Ireland, for a long time before devolution I saw the effects of legislation that went through by Order in Council and was not properly scrutinised, which led to all kinds of problems. We can see the arrangements that we now have in the devolved Assembly in Stormont, which were made in a Bill that had to be pushed through quickly.”
“Yes—yet another promise made during the discussions on the Bill has not been fulfilled. Indeed, it is a bit of an irony that we cannot even get a debate when the Green Paper described itself as the “first step in a national conversation” about the new arrangements. A national conversation? We cannot even get a proper parliamentary debate. One has to ask oneself what the Minister is thinking of in introducing a guillotine of this nature if the Bill is to be the foundation of a constitutional reform. I think of the guillotines that there have been in the House in recent weeks. On the Equality Bill, we did not get through 20 per cent. of the amendments because a guillotine was imposed on the important measures in it. We will see the same thing happen today.”
“It will not just be members of the House who are disappointed by what has happened today. When a Joint Committee scrutinised the Bill, it commended the Government for “taking these first steps towards its stated objective of making Government more accountable to Parliament.” Even when the Committee looked at the Bill, it believed it was getting something that we are not getting even in the debating of the Bill. The Committee indicated that “the Government’s approach to constitutional modernisation has been a rebalancing of power”. Those were the promises that were made and that was what we believed we were getting in the Bill, yet today we see that the end result is that the House has less opportunity for discussion and less say on the great changes that will be required.”
“I take the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s point. Far worse, of course, is the fact that Members will have little opportunity to debate, or even to prepare arguments against, Government amendments that we do not yet know about. My party will vote against the programme motion, because it does not reflect what the Government promised and it has not been justified in the debate so far. This issue is of such great importance that there ought to be a proper opportunity for debate in the Chamber.”
“In the consultation and the Government paper on the governance of Britain, one recommendation was to put the Ponsonby proposals on a formal basis. That would have included the Government explanatory memorandum, which provides information about the contents of the treaty along with the Government’s view of the benefits and burdens of the treaty. If that was what was originally envisaged, why is it not reflected in the Bill? Is this not another example of the original proposals being short-changed by this Bill?”
“I accept what the Minister is saying about memorandums being published at the moment, but if that is so, why is there any reluctance on his part to include in the Bill the requirement to publish memorandums in all cases? That would take away any opportunity that cynics might have to say, “Yes, that’s what’s usually done.” The Bill gives a Minister the opportunity not to publish a memorandum, because he can decide to publish the details in whichever way he “thinks appropriate”. By accepting the amendment, the Minister would be accepting that there is no option but for a treaty to be handled in this way, and he would not be leaving any discretion for a future Minister.”
“The hon. Gentleman is making an important point. Although the intentions might have been good—all the earlier documentation indicates that they were—the reality might not be reflecting that. However, is the simple answer not to go along with the amendment, which would mean that all treaties would be subject to affirmative resolutions in the House?”
“In debate on the clause we have seen that, despite the high principles set out in the consultation paper, the Green Paper and the White Paper, and the promises to the Joint Committee on the draft Constitutional Renewal Bill, if we actually examine the detail in the Bill we see that the powers that the House will have to stop the ratification of a treaty fall far short of the ideals that were promised at the start.”
“Is that what is meant by giving the House a greater say on international treaties? It falls short of what we would want, ideally. The easy way round that is to support the amendment requiring treaties to be subject to the affirmative procedure.”
“I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that intervention, which was very useful. If a full role is to be played by all Members of the House, and not just the Front Benchers, the negative procedure is not a satisfactory way forward. The Government have the opportunity to present the treaty as they wish, and the negative procedure is to be used, but if the Government still do not like the outcome, subsection (4) allows the Minister to have another go at it, and to say, “Despite what I’ve heard, I still think you’re wrong.” There is then a further period in which the treaty can be looked at. As has been pointed out, if he gets the “wrong” answer again, he can bring the treaty forward time and again, until attrition or weariness means that the Government get their way.”
“So the contention that dealing with every treaty using the affirmative resolution procedure would take up too much time does not seem to have been effectively argued in the Minister’s responses so far. For that reason, if the matter is pressed to a Division, I shall certainly vote to enable the House to have a say on every treaty that the Government bring forward.”
“I know that the hon. Gentleman has tabled an amendment on this matter. I take his point, and I would be quite happy to see the provision relate to signature rather than ratification. Adopting the affirmative resolution procedure in this process, as the amendment proposes, would remove many of the objections that I have raised. The only argument that I have heard against doing so is that it would take up far too much time. It has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) who moved the amendment, however, that not every treaty would have to have extensive debate in the House. Furthermore, the Minister has said that there are not that many treaties anyway. He mentioned an average of only 30 a year.”
“Prisons in Northern Ireland are operating at close to full capacity, and for a long time now there have been discussions about the provision of a new prison in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister update us on that situation? Will the planned new prison be affected by the budget difficulties that are going to lead to capital cutbacks?”
“I fully recognise the constraints placed on the Chancellor in balancing and restoring public finances, while not damaging economic growth. One concern, however, for devolved Administrations is to have some certainty about Government spending plans for 2011 and beyond. When will he be able to give that assurance? When looking at those plans, will he bear in mind the House of Lords report that has indicated that Wales and Northern Ireland have greater needs than other parts of the United Kingdom?”
“I understand the reasoning behind the hon. Gentleman’s point, but does he recognise that in a place such as Northern Ireland, where, thankfully, the Bill will not apply, even his amendment would mean that 90 per cent. of all sources of employment would be encompassed? They would be subject to the regulatory aspects of the Bill, which would add considerably to their cost burden.”