Damian Hinds
MP for East Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“There are moments in debates like the one we have had today that are difficult to sit through and listen to, but it is the most immense privilege to be a Member of Parliament and to hear some of these testimonies.”
“Today is once again a day of heavy responsibility for all of us to decide on what we in this House call “conscience issues”. Many of the people who we represent hold strong and immutable views, and we hear from them. However, we represent many others who hold much more nuanced views and we are less likely to hear from them.”
“Members who support the Bill should not have their motives questioned, Members who oppose the Bill should not have their motives questioned, and Members who have reached a different conclusion from one they reached at an earlier stage should not have their judgment questioned either.”
“We have heard from royal colleges and other professional bodies, many of whom have a neutral stance on the principle but raise significant questions about particular aspects. We know from Ministers that there would need to be some reprioritisation of NHS resources, but we do not know the extent.”
“If there is the prospect of the Parliament Acts being used, that would increase the importance and the salience of the text as it is now. Today, it is reasonable and entirely in order for hon. Members to consider information that is available now that was not available in those previous parliamentary deliberation.”
“The Government have said, rightly, that the time taken to implement other schemes is not directly comparable, because none are as in this Bill. This is a free vote on a matter of conscience—there is no party line on either side of the Chamber. No one, I suggest, finds this issue easy.”
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“The pension age for all members of the civil service pension scheme is set to reflect their state pension age, which is between 65 and 68, depending on their date of birth. It is important to note that the rules and regulations in all public sector pension schemes, including the pension age, are introduced in legislation by His Majesty’s Treasury and applied within the civil service pension scheme by the Cabinet Office. The current pension age in the civil service scheme is set at state pension age, as a result, as my hon. Friend said, of the recommendations made in the 2011 independent Hutton report on the future affordability and sustainability of public sector pension schemes.”
“Friend for his continuous support in representing his constituents on this matter. As he alluded to, his constituency contains three establishments, known as the Sheppey cluster: HM Prisons Elmley, Swaleside and Standford Hill. I know he has met officers in those establishments a number of times, and he continues to show support and convey the messages they rightly give him by discussing the points raised in public forums, such as here in Westminster Hall, and in meetings with Ministers. He is committed, assiduous and, on the subject he has brought forward today, very consistent. The pension age for prison officers is linked to their pension arrangements. As my hon. Friend said, prison officers are classified as civil servants and are hence members of the civil service pension scheme.”
“It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Cummins. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) for securing this important debate, as it highlights the vital role that prison officers play in keeping the public safe and rehabilitating prisoners. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to them for their tireless work day in, day out. Prison staff are vital key workers, with many going above and beyond every day to keep safe the public, their colleagues and those committed by the courts to the care of His Majesty’s Prison and Probations Service. I am always hugely impressed by the commitment of prison staff, who sometimes work in the most challenging of circumstances to turn around offenders’ lives. In so many cases, they manage to do exactly that. I thank my hon.”
“HMPPS values career progression and prisons experience, which is why the career pathways framework has been created.”
“Furthermore, HMPPS has delivered the trauma risk management programme to provide practitioners in every prison, and colleagues in trauma risk management identify staff members who may be struggling after a traumatic event, and offer them onsite support. Those practitioners are trained to identify symptoms and to signpost assistance and support to relieve symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In August 2022, HMPPS published the employee offer known as “Looking After Our People: The Prison Service Employee Package”. That guide brings together information about career progression, training, benefits and support. It gives an overview of the work being done to make sure that the Prison Service provides the right employment offer for the future and it will be updated every year.”
“Many officers who could seek to take their unreduced pension at the age of 60 and retire from the service on that basis have taken the personal decision to continue to work full time, or have taken partial retirement and continued to work in an operational role, but on reduced working hours. As I was saying a moment ago to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), who represents Plaid Cymru, HMPPS takes very seriously the health and safety of all staff working within the prison estate. Staff have access to onsite care teams and an employee assistance programme, which includes confidential 24-hour support, and they are covered by a wide range of occupational health schemes, which are provided by specialist healthcare professionals.”
“Friend also said I would say, in 2013 and 2017, HMPPS worked with the Treasury and the Cabinet Office in making an offer that would have allowed prison officers to purchase a lower pension age, from the state pension age to 65, which was put to them for ballot by their trade union, the POA. The offers made to purchase a lower pension age would have been significantly subsidised by the employer, reducing the additional financial impact on officers. As my hon. Friend also said, those offers were part of a wider package with other reforms and they were rejected at ballot. Prison officers who are members of one of the legacy civil service final salary schemes retain the right to take formal retirement at the age of 60 and draw the full benefits that they have accrued in their legacy scheme.”
“As has been mentioned, consideration has also been given to comparisons between the role of prison officer and roles in the emergency services, such as firefighter and police officer, whose pension schemes both have a pension age of 60. Of course, that age had been increased from 55 under the Hutton recommendations. It is important to note—my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey did note this, and pre-empted me by saying he thought I would say it; he was right—that those in the police and firefighter pension schemes pay more into their pension to allow them to take their pension at the age of 60. Under the civil service scheme, a prison officer contributes, on average, 4.6% of their pensionable pay whereas the rate for the police and firefighter schemes is between 12% and 14% of pensionable pay. As my hon.”
“It certainly deserves a response, and I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for the points she has made. We want attractive career paths to be available to everybody who works in HM Prison and Probation Service. Those might be different as people go through their working lives, but we want to try to facilitate that as much as possible. I will come to the emphasis that we rightly place on occupational health and helping to support people through those journeys. Since the introduction of the pension age of 65 for new recruits in 2007, HMPPS has been recruiting new prison officers in their 60s who have passed the fitness test and are undertaking the role safely and securely.”
“Lady is that even with a pension age set to mirror an individual’s state pension age, the civil service scheme is still one of the best pension schemes available. It has one of the very lowest contribution rates across the public sector, at the 4.6% that I have already mentioned, and there is an employer contribution of 27% into the scheme on behalf of the employee. It also has one of the best accrual rates, which is set at 2.32%.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. I take both recruitment and retention extremely seriously. I was just saying that there is a particular value to experience and we need a mix in our workforce and diversity of all sorts, including diversity of length of tenure and experience, both to share and deploy that experience and to bring on the newer recruits who are coming through. Retaining staff is an incredibly important point. Many factors affect retention. I accept, of course, that the pension is absolutely part of the blend of remuneration, benefits, working conditions and all the other things that go to determine people’s career choice about whether to stay in a particular role or not. However, what I will say to the hon.”
“I put on the record again my thanks to and appreciation of the prison officers of all grades and roles who work in the prison estate for the incredibly valuable and irreplaceable work that they do every day. Question put and agreed to.”
“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that constructive discussion is always good; that is why we meet here in Westminster Hall and have these debates, and why my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey has raised this subject today and on previous occasions. It is absolutely right that Ministers are held to account and answerable. I was just about to raise discussions with the profession and the POA. In my role, I am lucky enough to speak to prison officers frequently, and I am always happy to speak to the POA. I thank my hon. Friend for consistently representing his constituents and others, and for bringing this important matter to the House. I mean that sincerely.”
“Member for Lewisham East (Janet Daby) and others outlined. However, the Government’s priority remains the protection of the public, and any resentencing exercise that aims to provide each IPP prisoner with a definite release date would inevitably result in the immediate release of a considerable number of offenders who committed serious sexual or violent offences and whom the Parole Board has previously deemed unsafe to be released.”
“Although that is a significant decrease from the peak in 2012, I recognise that there is more to be done. I reaffirm the Government’s commitment to support those serving an IPP sentence, both in prison and on licence in the community, to work towards a safe and sustainable future release. We will continue this work through the updated IPP action plan. I thank all members of the Justice Committee for their thorough work in examining the issues surrounding IPP sentences. The Government gave careful consideration to all the report’s findings and each of the Committee’s recommendations. We carefully considered the recommendations to undertake a full resentencing exercise of all remaining offenders serving an IPP sentence and to establish a time-limited expert committee to advise on the practical implementation of such an exercise, as the hon.”
“As a number of colleagues have mentioned, the IPP sentence was introduced by the Criminal Justice Act 2003 for offences committed on or after 4 April 2005, and it was abolished from December 2012. As has been noted, abolition was not applied retrospectively, as the Government assessed that it would not be right to alter a sentence that had been lawfully imposed by a court prior to its abolition. This means that the Parole Board grants release to those serving an IPP sentence once they have demonstrated that they are safe to be released. At the time of abolition, more than 6,000 offenders were serving an IPP sentence in prison. Since then a substantial number have been released on licence, so that at the end of March this year there were 2,916 offenders on an IPP sentence in custody.”
“Having discussed this matter with IPP campaign groups and colleagues of different parties last month, I am even more acutely aware of the depth and strength of the feeling evoked. Today’s debate is timely, because the updated IPP action plan from HM Prison and Probation Service was shared with my hon. Friend’s Committee yesterday. One of the Committee’s key recommendations was to refresh the agency’s action plan, and this debate provides an opportunity to share some details of the refreshed plan with the House. I am confident that it will make a genuine difference to the way that IPP offenders are rehabilitated and supported through to safe release, consistent with public protection. I will provide a brief overview of the IPP sentence, before turning to the Justice Committee’s report and the Government response.”
“It is very good to see you in the Chair, as always, Mr Twigg. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) for his opening remarks and for securing this debate on behalf of the Justice Committee following the publication last year of its report on imprisonment for public protection sentences. I also thank all colleagues in the Chamber for what they have brought to this important debate and to our discussion of these incredibly serious matters. The Government welcomed the report by my hon. Friend and his Committee as a real opportunity to take stock of the debate on the IPP sentence, which rightly continues to generate enormous interest, attention and challenge across both Houses of Parliament.”
“I make it on the basis of the profile of the prison population and the fact that prisoners have had parole hearings where determinations have been made not to release. That is based on the release test, with which I know my hon. Friend is extremely familiar. It is vital for public protection that those serving the IPP sentence in prison, whether not yet released or recalled following release, are released only following a thorough risk assessment that finds that their risk has now reduced to the point where they can be safely managed in the community. That is a judgment for the parole board. It is for that reason we rejected the Committee’s recommendation of a full resentencing exercise for such offenders.”
“It is extremely important to allow a proportionate licence period after release to ensure their safe management and reintegration into communities.”
“I assure the right hon. Gentleman that our decision is based on principles of public safety, consistent with wishing to help and support the prisoners on an IPP sentence through to the point where they can be released safely into the community. All of us want that ultimate goal. The Committee also recommended a reduction in the qualifying period for licence termination from 10 years to five following first release from custody. As hon. Members know, the licence period following custody is an important tool not only for public protection, but to ensure that offenders are properly supported to manage risk when they are integrating back into the community. As I said earlier, offenders who originally received an IPP sentence did so because they committed a qualifying offence and were considered to pose a risk of serious harm to the public.”
“I thank the chief inspector for stepping up to undertake that piece of work. I will move on to the IPP action plan, but first may I ask what time I must finish by, Mr Twigg?”
“Colleagues have expressed legitimate concern about the high number of IPP offenders recalled to custody, and asked about the proportionality of that. I assure colleagues that in 2020 His Majesty’s inspectorate of probation did a thematic report on recall in terms of its proportionality, and it found that decisions to recall were proportionate. As part of our action plan, we will be internally reviewing our recall processes. We are also asking His Majesty’s inspector of probation—the chief inspector—to undertake a thematic inspection of recalls specifically for IPP and for that to happen in this calendar year. He will also look at the weeks leading up to recall—I know that this is a significant point that matters to colleagues, and rightly so— and consider whether, had the support on offer been different, recall could have been avoided.”
“We will continue to engage with my hon. Friend’s Committee in the normal way. It is perfectly reasonable of him to challenge us. I was coming on to say something about the licence periods. Although we will not be reducing the eligibility period for licence termination at this time, we have committed in the action plan to review the current policy and practice for suspending the supervisory elements of IPP licences to ensure that all cases are considered at the point when they are eligible, which, for the supervisory element, is after five continuous successful years on licence in the community. My hon. Friend will be aware of the changes that we made in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 in regard to making sure that eligible cases are brought forward.”
“We will also set up a new external reference group for open engagement with external stakeholders, which is very important. That will give them a chance to engage directly with and provide input to the action plan and its delivery. I accept the points made by my hon. Friend about transparency and reporting, and we are committed to reporting more and in a timely way. The Government’s priority continues to be the protection of the public, but we remain fully committed to doing all we can to support the safe progression of those serving IPP sentences. I look forward to continued dialogue on this matter with the Committee, colleagues here and others beyond this debate. I repeat my gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst for securing the debate and to all who contributed to it.”
“The plan has now set out—and itself includes—actions to ensure that IPP prisoners get access in a timely way to the programmes they need to be able to reduce their risk. I will say a little about the governance of the plan—that comes to the accountable owner and ensuring that it has sufficient heft. There will be a new senior IPP progression board, chaired by the executive director with responsibility for public protection, who my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and some of the campaign groups met and heard from recently. The board will drive the completion of actions, reviewing the impact and progress of the action plan every six months. Each workstream will be formally owned by a senior leader in HMPPS and held accountable for delivery through the new board.”
“I am confident that it will deliver tangible change by safely reducing over time the IPP population in custody and in the community, while still prioritising public protection. Our key priority is managing the sentences of those serving an IPP to a consistently high quality, ensuring that the delivery of systems and processes in every prison and probation region facilitates risk reduction and the prospect of progress towards a safe and sustainable release. That will include the delivery of specific interventions and services to enable sentence progression, rehabilitation and effective resettlement for those who continue to serve the IPP sentence. To respond to a point brought up by my hon. Friend, it is true that covid restricted access to some of those programmes.”
“Then I will turn to the IPP action plan, which sets out the range of work that His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service does to support the progress of IPP offenders towards a prospective safe and sustainable release. The Committee’s report criticised the then IPP action plan for lacking clear performance measures, an accountable owner and a timeframe for completion of workstream actions. We accept those points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and his colleagues. It had actually long been the intention of the Government to refresh the IPP action plan, once his Committee’s report had been published. Having taken that evidence into account, I am pleased to be able to share some of the details of the refreshed plan, building on the previous one.”
“Yes, of course safety must come first. Although it is true that more than 90% of transgender women prisoners are in the male estate, it is right that we have further strengthened our policy for those who have committed sexual or violent offences, and for those who retain their birth genitalia, who can be housed elsewhere only in truly exceptional circumstances, on a case-by-case basis.”
“Among other things, we are renewing the prisoner education service, establishing an employability innovation fund, and ensuring that skills acquired match business need through close work with employers.”
“I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he did, through the Homelessness Reduction Act, to support prisoners throughout our communities. He is right to identify not only the importance of skills and getting into work, but the need for direct support with accommodation. We are investing heavily in expanding transitional accommodation at the different levels. Although there is still a way to go, it is very encouraging that the proportion of prisoners being left homeless after leaving prison has reduced by 5 percentage points over the past couple of years.”
“In relation to the probation service, which I think the hon. Gentleman is asking about, we are investing in increasing staff numbers and ensuring that those staff have the right support, and we have seen those staff numbers grow. It is also important, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State just said, that we learn from when things go wrong or have gone wrong in the past and ensure we respond appropriately.”
“My hon. Friend is quite right; that is a crucial part of the jigsaw, together with maintaining family ties. In a major new initiative, we are creating up to 18 new drug recovery wings so that prisoners can focus on achieving abstinence not only from illicit drugs, but from prescribed substitutes. We are also increasing the number of incentivised substance-free living units and have been investing strongly in prison security to stop drugs getting in in the first place.”
“We all trust Shannon; the hon. Gentleman is quite right to draw attention to the good work of his namesake trust, which for many years has operated a very good peer model in our prisons, where prisoners help other prisoners. We also work with the trust directly on other programmes, and just last week we announced a new funding award to the Shannon Trust and one other charity to help in that important basic literacy work that he mentions.”
“Improving education in prisons is a top priority. The public sector, the independent sector and the voluntary sector all have an important part to play in that. Indeed, three of the four contracted core education providers currently are classified as public sector bodies.”
“That is a mischaracterisation of how the education service runs in prison. There are an extraordinary number of very dedicated people working in that service, and three of the four providers, as I say, are essentially further education college providers. We can and must do better, because we know that education and the acquisition of skills help to keep people out of trouble and from returning to jail once they get out.”
“We have injected extra funding of more than £155 million a year to deliver more robust supervision, recruit thousands more staff, and reduce case loads to support the vital work of the probation service in keeping the public safe.”
“I join the hon. Lady in paying tribute to the men and women who work in the probation service for the absolutely vital work that they do tirelessly. It is very important that we make sure we have the right levels of staffing; I can report to her that in calendar year 2022, the number of staff in post rose significantly, from 17,400 to 18,600. In her own area of the south-west, covering Bristol, we had 210 joiners for the year, but it is obviously very important that as those people come through, we carry on having the pipeline of talent coming in. It is also very important that we are investing suitably in senior probation officers for their oversight, which we are doing.”
“I echo the hon. Gentleman’s good wishes for the victim. He is absolutely right about the importance of the safety and security for our prison officers. Things such as the rolling out of body-worn video cameras are an important part of that, along with the sensible use of PAVA spray, which I know the POA wants.”
“I am not sure that I can respond in quite the same style as my right hon. Friend. During the pandemic, being able to do certain tasks remotely or from home was a way of carrying on with unpaid work. But in general, we expect people to turn up and do that work, usually, in a group setting.”
“We will add to the “presumed unsuitable” list any offenders currently serving a sentence of imprisonment for 11 offences that are often linked to domestic abuse, such as stalking, harassment, breach of protective orders—restraining orders, for example—controlling and coercive behaviour, and non-fatal strangulation and suffocation. Adding those offences to the list will mean that those offenders will not be considered for release on HDC unless the governor is satisfied that there are truly exceptional circumstances justifying it and that their risk can be safely managed in the community.”
“Our changes put public protection first, while ensuring closer scrutiny and supervision in the community for those less serious offenders who are ready to be released on home detention curfew. We will be making changes to the eligibility criteria and risk assessment set out in the HDC policy framework, which will mean fewer people are released on HDC overall, the public are better protected, and a clear message is sent to domestic abusers. Tackling violence against women and girls is a Government priority. It is abhorrent and preventable, and an issue that blights the lives of millions. Certain offenders, such as sex offenders and those convicted of child cruelty offences, are already excluded or presumed unsuitable for home detention curfew.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Home Detention Curfew) Order 2023. It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Stringer. The home detention curfew scheme has been in place for more than two decades and is an important tool in safely managing the transition of eligible offenders from custody back into the community. It does so by enabling certain lower-risk prisoners to be released from prison early, while remaining subject to significant restrictions on their liberty, including a curfew, which is monitored by an electronic tag. The draft statutory instrument before us forms part of wider changes that we are making to that scheme.”
“We have enhanced our use of electronic monitoring across the board, which is supported by ever-improving technology and the broader use of GPS tagging, which allows us to monitor offenders when they are away from the curfew address where necessary and not just whether they are at home during curfew hours.”
“The change will provide a longer transition from custody to community for a smaller cohort of eligible, risk-assessed offenders, allowing them to work towards rehabilitation in the community while remaining subject to strict conditions. The electronically monitored curfew is a significant restriction on their liberty. If the curfew or any other conditions of their licence, such as the requirement to report to probation, are breached, they can be recalled to prison. Electronic monitoring is also an opportunity for offenders to break habits that have led them into offending previously, improve chances for employment and training, and help to maintain positive relationships.”
“The combined effect of these planned changes will be to increase that number by around 300, which means that the prison population at any one time will be lower by around 300. Our changes pull in both directions on prison population because, while we think it right to exclude those convicted of stalking, harassment and other offences, we also think it right to extend the HDC period for the limited cohort of offenders assessed as suitable for the scheme. When I refer to the “limited cohort”, it is worth bearing in mind that, of the total cohort who could, on the face of it, be eligible for such a scheme, some two thirds do not go on it.”
“But we are clear that we must go further, and that is why we are making these changes today. At the same time, the purpose of the draft instrument is to extend the maximum period of the existing home detention curfew scheme by 45 days. That extends the benefits of the scheme for eligible, suitable offenders, helping to support their rehabilitation in the community with a view to reducing reoffending. That will mean that some people will spend longer on HDC, but no change is being made to the minimum period that someone must have served in custody before being released on HDC. Although fewer people will be released, the number who are on HDC at any one time will grow because of the longer period to be spent under curfew. There are currently around 1,850 offenders on HDC.”
“We will therefore be mandating that public protection as a whole is considered in the risk assessment for someone being considered for home detention curfew, and that all necessary information sharing takes place before a decision on HDC release is made. This builds on changes that I alluded to in response to my right hon. Friend’s question—changes that we introduced last year. Since April 2022, it has been mandatory for the community offender manager to request information from the police and children’s services about domestic abuse or child safeguarding risks associated with the offender or the proposed address, to help to inform the assessment of HDC suitability. Home detention curfew must not be authorised until that information has been obtained and assessed.”
“I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend and I do want to give her that reassurance—that we are extending the list of people who will be presumed ineligible for this programme to include those 11 new offences. Actually, it is part of a broader scheme and some changes that we brought in last year, which I will come to in a moment. It goes beyond, necessarily, that which a person was imprisoned for; often, we need to consider wider intelligence as well. Assessment of risks to those at the curfew address is key and will remain so, but it is also absolutely right that risks to the public more generally are taken into account.”
“There are multiple benefits to that—for example, in monitoring exclusion zones or, if somebody is supposed to be going to work on a daily basis, ensuring that that is in fact what they are doing. We also now have alcohol tagging, to detect whether people have complied with an alcohol order. Home detention curfew is an effective approach for the management of lower-risk offenders, and it allows for their safe and controlled reintegration from prison into the community. I look forward to today’s debate, and I commend the instrument to the Committee.”