Damian Hinds
MP for East Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“There are moments in debates like the one we have had today that are difficult to sit through and listen to, but it is the most immense privilege to be a Member of Parliament and to hear some of these testimonies.”
“Today is once again a day of heavy responsibility for all of us to decide on what we in this House call “conscience issues”. Many of the people who we represent hold strong and immutable views, and we hear from them. However, we represent many others who hold much more nuanced views and we are less likely to hear from them.”
“Members who support the Bill should not have their motives questioned, Members who oppose the Bill should not have their motives questioned, and Members who have reached a different conclusion from one they reached at an earlier stage should not have their judgment questioned either.”
“We have heard from royal colleges and other professional bodies, many of whom have a neutral stance on the principle but raise significant questions about particular aspects. We know from Ministers that there would need to be some reprioritisation of NHS resources, but we do not know the extent.”
“If there is the prospect of the Parliament Acts being used, that would increase the importance and the salience of the text as it is now. Today, it is reasonable and entirely in order for hon. Members to consider information that is available now that was not available in those previous parliamentary deliberation.”
“The Government have said, rightly, that the time taken to implement other schemes is not directly comparable, because none are as in this Bill. This is a free vote on a matter of conscience—there is no party line on either side of the Chamber. No one, I suggest, finds this issue easy.”
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“If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will come on in due course to the rationale for creating the new facility, which, as he said, will be at a site in the Treforest area, and the effect on the five places whose staff will feed into it, including Newport. The announcement on 5 July finalised the plans to rationalise the DWP estate, which include merging some smaller and underutilised jobcentres, moving some to new buildings or shared Government premises, and creating larger strategic back-office sites. The changes will enable the Department to offer a more efficient service while delivering value for the taxpayer, and will save more than £140 million a year over the next 10 years. Eight out of 10 claims for jobseeker’s allowance, and 99% of applications for universal credit full service, are now made online.”
“Refurbishing older sites can have quite a high cost, as it generally entails substantial infrastructure requirements, which might include installing more lifts, air conditioning, heating, lighting, and cabling and other technology to increase bandwidth for digital services and call centres. Although we have not acquired specific refurbishment quotes for the buildings in question, industry benchmarks suggest that refurbishing all our existing buildings would cost between 50% and 100% more in fit-out than setting up a new building. Of course, such refurbishment is also disruptive both to our work and to staff. We would need to vacate a property for six to eight months and incur the cost of moving and of temporary space for that period, or move within a building multiple times to free up floors for refurbishment.”
“Gentleman’s constituency, as the jobcentre there will remain open. The hon. Gentleman asked whether I would go into detail about the rationale for the new site, including the financial rationale. Our strategy for the new service centre in the Treforest area is to bring colleagues together at a single location, resulting in better use of space, increased efficiency in how we work, and greater opportunities for staff development and progression. However, there is also a financial rationale. Fitting out a bespoke new right-size property is better value than refurbishing our existing older properties. Although that is not necessarily universally true for all buildings, the sites in this region are particularly old.”
“There is also a bus, which takes around an hour and 11 minutes. Of course, journey times will differ depending on where staff live in relation to the site. From 2021, we will start to move staff to the new site. We want to retain Newport colleagues, along with their skills and experience, and we have deliberately chosen to phase the moves so that people have time to make decisions about their futures. We are also prepared to pay staff members’ excess travel costs for up to three years to assist their transition. Along with other Departments, the DWP will continue to be a significant employer in the area, and I expect the skills and experience of people who work at Sovereign House to be in demand. These changes to back-of-house sites will have no effect on claimants in the hon.”
“Yes, looking at both car transport and public transport opportunities was of course part of the analysis when these changes were evaluated. The Treforest area borders some of the most deprived areas in Wales, and choosing it supports the aim of the Welsh Government’s valleys taskforce of creating “better jobs closer to home”, which the hon. Member for Newport West cited. I met the Welsh Government’s Minister for Skills and Science last week to discuss our plans and how we will support our staff through these changes. In March this year, there were 212 staff at Sovereign House and only about 50% of the building was in use. As I mentioned, we assessed the distance that staff would travel to work at the proposed new site. Newport is 21 miles, or a 26-minute drive, from Treforest.”
“Gentleman that we have met our equality duty under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010 and paid due regard to the impact of the proposals on our communities, our staff and the customers they serve. He also mentioned the requirements of people with disabilities and how office facilities have become more accessible over time—a development we all welcome. It is of course worth considering the fact that new buildings can often be designed with the specific needs of our staff in mind, including features such as improved accessibility.”
“Will the hon. Lady forgive me if I see how we go? If time allows, of course I will. We also expect a new building to have significantly better environmental credentials and better energy efficiency than our old buildings, creating savings in the long term. The hon. Member for Newport West rightly asked about the risk of redundancies. Of course we want to minimise that risk. It is impossible to be absolutely clear at this stage, not least because we are talking about a move that is some years away, but we anticipate that approximately 20 staff might not be able to move to the new site. Now that announcements have been made, it is possible to be clearer about employment and career opportunities, and we will have detailed one-to-one meetings with staff between now and then. I reassure the hon.”
“Now is the right time to consider how we can make best use of our resources to help bring into work those who are able to join the workforce while retaining support and safeguards for those who are not. Question put and agreed to.”
“As the way we interact with our customers changes, so do their needs and expectations. Reforms have increased our online interactions with claimants so that face-to-face contact can be used for those who require additional support. We are committed to retaining an accessible jobcentre network and continuing to serve customers in all parts of the country. Our work coaches will continue to offer face-to-face support—a core part of our service—at our sites, but customers now have a range of ways to access employment support, including email, telephone, post and online. Around 3 million more people in this country are in work than in 2010, and youth unemployment has fallen by 375,000. The employment rate has risen to 72.9%, which is a record high. In Wales, a near-record high of 1.44 million people are in work.”
“As I think the hon. Lady knows, there are some things that are commercially sensitive and that it is not possible to release, and there are other things that it is possible to release. I am happy to follow up with her about that in correspondence. I know that there is also interest in whether our plans will affect the roll-out of universal credit. I assure hon. Members that the changes take full account of the roll-out of the full universal credit service. We have ensured that our schedule of changes has the flexibility to react to changing demand—both expected fluctuations and future economic trends. From this month, we are expanding universal credit full service roll-out to 30 jobcentres a month and putting extra resources into those jobcentres and the service centres that support them.”
“We will continue to provide excellent support to those seeking work, or who cannot work, through a network of offices, which are modern, accessible and meet future requirements.”
“In making these decisions, the Department has fulfilled its duties under the Equality Act 2010 and paid due regard to the impact of the proposals on the staff, and the communities and customers that they serve.”
“I reassure the hon. Gentleman that, of course, in looking forward in time to our future needs, we plan for the expected demand on jobcentres and allow for some contingency as well. I also reassure him that the rate of sanctions has been coming down. As we are in Scottish questions, it is particularly relevant to note that the rate of sanctions in Scotland is lower than it is in the rest of the UK.”
“We do think that we have a fair and reasonable approach to relocation. Of course we are asking some staff to move offices, and we try to do everything we can to facilitate that. Part of that is providing the excess fares policy that the hon. Gentleman mentions, which is greater in its extent than in many other organisations and we do think it is a reasonable approach.”
“The first thing to say is that missing or being late for an appointment does not necessarily result in a sanction. We expect people to make reasonable efforts to make it to appointments and, as I have said, the rate of sanctions has been coming down, but we expect people to have time—the entire working week—available to seek work. That involves going to job interviews and visiting the jobcentre. For an able-bodied person without children, for example, that would be up to 35 hours a week. Obviously, if a person has caring responsibilities, we expect them to have correspondingly less time available.”
“I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. In fact in every nation and region of the UK, including Scotland, we are looking to increase the number of frontline staff and work coaches helping people into work.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for that important question. Of course we consider opportunities to co-locate our services with other public sector and third sector services, as he mentions. We continue to consider those opportunities. In the specific case of those jobcentres where we are moving operations more than 3 miles or 20 minutes away, we are considering new outreach facilities. I also want to mention that, of course, in the city of Glasgow the unemployment claimant count has come down by 43% since 2010.”
“DWP officials engage regularly with local authorities, which can of course include exploring opportunities to share accommodation. We are introducing 40 new such arrangements, three in Scotland. These arrangements bring benefits for colleagues, customers and the taxpayer. I am keen that we continue to explore more opportunities into the future.”
“We will continue to work with local authorities and third sector organisations, but I must remind the hon. Gentleman that before these changes the city of Glasgow had the greatest coverage of jobcentres per head of population of any large city in the UK. After these changes, it will still have the greatest coverage of jobcentres of any large city in the UK.”
“There are now more people claiming universal credit than jobseeker’s allowance, which is an important milestone.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing a debate on this important issue. I know he joins me in supporting the aims of universal credit. I also know that the insight he brings, and the amount of thought and work he has put in, will prove a great asset as we strive collectively to make universal credit the best it can be. I also recognise the concerns that have been raised, and I reassure my hon. Friend and parliamentary colleagues that work is under way to improve delivery. This debate provides a chance to show how the Department has removed obstacles to this flagship welfare reform. More than 1 million people have claimed universal credit, and 530,000 are currently on universal credit, of whom 6,067 are in his constituency.”
“In addition, under universal credit, repayment for private landlords can be at a higher rate—up to 20% where claimants can afford it. That means that claimants can get on top of their finances and landlords can get the money they are owed more quickly. These actions are having results. Our internal figures show that far more claimants are getting the right money on time. We aim to make this information public in the near future. I know that my hon. Friend has acknowledged these improvements in performance.”
“Thanks to feedback from landlords, we have made improvements to the way we set up direct payments of rent to landlords with an easier to use application form. That means that we are getting those payments out to landlords more quickly. We are also exploring how we can make it easier for landlords to find out the status of the application for a direct payment and we will be making an announcement about that soon. Universal credit also brings big improvements for private landlords whose tenants get into arrears. Under the old system, landlords would need to apply for recovery of arrears via a third party deduction, often at a low repayment rate, which could mean a long wait before landlords got back their rent. In universal credit, it is easier and quicker to set up an arrears payment for landlords.”
“It was also clear that we needed to do a better job of speaking with landlords in both the private and social sector about the changes that universal credit would bring. I am pleased to report that this valuable feedback has helped us introduce real improvements to the way we do things: we have removed delays and data verification that were causing some of the payments to go out late; and we have introduced a “Housing Confident” scheme to ensure that universal credit work coaches talk to claimants about housing and that work coaches are alert to the support that claimants might need. It is about properly understanding the claimant’s needs, and this can extend to providing budgeting advice or, when needed, arranging for direct payments to landlords. We have made improvements to the service that we offer private and social landlords.”
“Claimants have the flexibility to take on extra hours without worrying about having to stop and then restart multiple benefit claims. Under universal credit, employers in Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth are able to offer extra work at short notice to a workforce that can make the most of those opportunities without the additional administrative burden. Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth jobcentres were among the first to roll out the universal credit service to all claimant types, which has given us invaluable insight into what works and what we can do better. From my visits and from the correspondence that I have had with my hon. Friend and with the local authorities in his constituency it became clear that we needed to be better at gathering information and improving the speed and accuracy of payments to claimants.”
“There is a high level of seasonal work in the Lowestoft area. Before the introduction of universal credit, many people could have been reluctant to take up short-term or irregular work because of the old 16-hour limit with some of the legacy benefits. Since the launch of universal credit, jobcentre staff have contacted the large local employers, leisure parks and holiday resorts, to help generate job opportunities for claimants. We have run popular job fairs, attended by more than 1,700 claimants, promoting these openings. I know that my hon. Friend has had a lot of personal involvement in running job fairs, and other employability and opportunity events. Universal credit claimants can now take up work, which may initially be just at the weekend and in school holidays, that builds up to extra hours as the season progresses.”
“Councillor Law was a long-standing public servant who made a big contribution to the community he represented, as was manifested in the example my hon. Friend gave of his commitment even into his ill health. He will be missed by those on all sides of the political divide. Given the ambition and scale of change that universal credit introduces, there are bound to be issues that arise as the service is rolled out. In particular, there are clearly concerns over the challenges some claimants face when managing a monthly budget for the first time, but let me assure Members that the Department has already been making inroads on this issue and there are many good reasons to feel positive about the future. I take the opportunity to highlight how universal credit helps people looking for work in my hon. Friend’s constituency.”
“Friend has deep roots in the constituency and community he represents, and I am very aware that he works closely with the local authorities in his constituency to make sure the voice of East Anglia is always heard. I was very pleased to have the chance to visit Lowestoft jobcentre earlier this year—he mentioned that—accompanied by the leaders of the Waveney and Great Yarmouth councils. I am also aware that he has made subsequent visits to the jobcentre, which I hope he also found useful. That visit was a great opportunity for me to see how we are delivering universal credit in his constituency and to hear at first hand some of the concerns people have had. I also want to join my hon. Friend in expressing condolences following the death of Colin Law, the leader of Waveney District Council, in May.”
“Claimants are spending twice as much time looking for a job as under the old system and they are moving into work faster, with 113 people moving into work under universal credit for every 100 who were doing so under the pre-existing system. One result of the roll-out of universal credit full service in my hon. Friend’s constituency—I grant that this may seem paradoxical—is that the claimant count has risen since the full service went live in May 2016. As he rightly acknowledged, that is because under universal credit the count is extended—it is broader—to cover a wider group of claimants than under the old jobseeker’s allowance benefit. This is part of universal credit’s design and ambition to encourage and support more people into work. My hon.”
“No, it does not mean that. Obviously, people come into the benefits system and may be receiving benefits for a period of time but then go into work that is sufficiently remunerative to mean that they do not fall within the universal credit system. As the hon. Lady will know, people’s circumstances change, and can do so often. As I was saying, the digital take-up of universal credit is a great success story, with 99% of UC new claims made online, which will mean that in the long run the service is more expedient and more user-friendly. Overall, 82% of universal credit customers reported they were satisfied or very satisfied with the service, and figures show that it is working.”
“I recognise, of course, that there are areas for improvement in our service, but with every release of new software and every office that goes live with the full digital service, enhancements are made that improve the experience of using the service for staff, for claimants, for landlords and for our delivery partners. My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney has seen for himself the drive, commitment and passion that so many of our staff, stakeholders and people across the programme have. They want to see this revolutionary welfare reform through, and I am confident that they will. Question put and agreed to.”
“Members will be aware of the range of third-party services and partnership arrangements in place in a large number of jobcentres. We have also appointed vulnerable people officers in jobcentres to deal with claimants who face significant challenges. These officers work closely with the universal credit service centre to identify and resolve issues quickly. The DWP’s response to the Public Accounts Committee’s report in February 2017 made a commitment to write to the Committee in spring 2017 to set out the impact of the changes to the programme on operational costs, staff and claimants. As a result of the general election, we will now send our response once the Committee has been reinstated. We also plan to publish a range of management information on universal credit later this year.”
“We are considering the responses to that consultation and the joint Select Committee on Communities and Local Government and Select Committee on Work and Pensions report, and we will work with colleagues across Government and in the devolved Administrations to set out further details of our plans as soon as we can. On the question of claimants with complex needs, we make sure that our work coaches have the flexibility to shape support for individuals in difficult and different circumstances. Work coaches can adjust work search requirements to allow claimants to prioritise solutions to their issues, such as homelessness or addiction. We are also working with our partners to target resources most effectively. Hon.”
“On emergency and temporary accommodation, we are aware that the transitory nature of universal credit temporary accommodation claims can cause problems to do with the timing of when people will be in temporary accommodation, the assessment period and when the payments are made. We also recognise that this has resulted in some difficulties for local authorities and tenants in emergency or short-term accommodation. Our consultation on supported accommodation, which closed on 13 February, asked whether devolving shared accommodation to local authorities might also work as an approach for temporary accommodation.”
“If claimants do not want to talk about their finances face to face, our new “Money Manager” website, developed in co-operation with the Money Advice Service, gives claimants practical support and advice. There are a number of alternative payment arrangements available, which include paying rent costs directly to landlords but also making more frequent payments to claimants and splitting universal credit payments in cases of domestic abuse. Our research shows that over time, claimants successfully reduce their arrears. I want to turn to a couple of the other specifics mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney.”
“As I said at that time, there are many complex and overlapping factors at play, and the role of universal credit is by no means the sole factor contributing to rent arrears. Our research shows that the majority of universal credit claimants are comfortable managing their own budget. Furthermore, we know that, after four months, the proportion of universal credit claimants who were in arrears at the start of their claim fell by a third. Let me reassure the House that there are safeguards in place for claimants. We can advance up to half of a universal credit payment at the start of the claim. Our work coaches talk to claimants about their financial situation and can also refer claimants for support to help them manage their budget.”
“In response to the points raised by my hon. Friend about the roll-out of universal credit in Lowestoft, I said that I would come on to some of the questions around our customers and claimants—people with particular needs and complex needs. The essential point is that, in jobcentres, our staff see the full range of society and of course we must have the wherewithal to help those people as best we can. That does involve being responsive to different types of people and their different needs. I am confident that our staff do that in the correct way, but can we learn more? Of course we can. I do appreciate the concern that exists around rent arrears. It is an issue that matters to many people. We have had a chance to debate that matter in a recent Adjournment debate in this House.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) on securing this debate on the cost of calling the Department for Work and Pensions. I also thank him for his continued interest in these important matters. At the DWP we seek to ensure the correct balance between delivering high levels of customer service and experience and balancing the demands on the public purse and therefore protecting the taxpayer. The DWP’s policy is that calls to claim benefit should be free, so it uses 0800 telephone numbers for such calls. The Department uses 0345 telephone numbers where customers call for other reasons. These are calls that typically take less time to resolve. The exception to this is universal credit, as the service is designed to be accessed online and telephony services are used as a fall-back.”
“It continues to review and identify opportunities for integrating telephony and benefit-processing activity further to improve the service it delivers. The Department is proactive in considering how further to reduce any potential cost impact on customers when they need to transact business. As Members will know, in delivering welfare reform, universal credit is designed to be accessed online, with telephony services used as a back-up. The universal credit experience is delivering an effective channel shift away from the use of telephony, with over 90% of new claims made through digital interfaces and away from the telephone.”
“After the DWP 0345 numbers were introduced, customers calling an old DWP 0845 telephone number would receive a recorded message informing them that they should dial the correct 0345 number. There was no charge for the call to the old 0845 telephone number. I appreciate, of course, that some of the most vulnerable people in society have to contact DWP services, which is why, if callers express concern about the cost of a call, we offer to call them back. The Department provides controlled access to telephones for claimants in jobcentres, when required, to help with any benefit inquiries. It has also expanded its “once and done” service centre approach across its working-age, disability and specialist sites, so that it can meet a claimant’s needs during the first call whenever possible.”
“Calls to 0345 telephone numbers are typically included in any free or inclusive minutes in a caller’s landline or mobile telephone contract. Although there are a multitude of service providers and tariffs, I can confirm that calls to 0345 telephone numbers are included in bundled minutes for mobile services by the biggest providers—EE, 02 and Vodafone—as well as most of the others. I know that in the past the hon. Gentleman has raised the use of more expensive 0845 telephone numbers. I am pleased to be able to confirm that the DWP does not use 0845 telephone numbers in any of its communication channels. We replaced 0845 numbers with 0345 numbers during 2014 and 2015. That process was completed before the Ofcom changes in call charges came into effect in 2015, making calls to 0845 numbers more expensive.”
“Yes, of course I recognise that. I represent a rural constituency myself, and it is important to have other options available where necessary. It is also the case that when we are dealing with people seeking work, for example, being able to get online is vital for that purpose. That is one of the reasons why we also ensure IT provision inside jobcentres. It would not be an effective use of public money to build universal credit around a freephone telephone number, but where customers need to call DWP regarding their claim, it is through an 0345 number. The costs of calling an 0345 telephone number are set by individual providers, but they are never more than the cost of calling geographic numbers, which have 01 and 02 dialling codes.”
“Gentleman said, if the 0800 numbering range were extended to all service lines, it would cost the taxpayer an additional £7 million per year.”
“The Department is developing a strategy across all the services it delivers, which will allow us to carry out a safe transition of our key telephony platforms and consider how to make best use of new technologies and contact channels. Given the complexity of the services that the Department delivers and the range of customers with whom we interact, it is vital to ensure that we really understand the range of services that citizens need in order to interact with us. I am sure Members appreciate that a “one size fits all” approach would not be successful. The Department has to strike the right balance between the cost to callers and the cost to taxpayers, which is why a mixture of freephone and paid—but never premium-rate—telephone numbers is available to citizens. As the hon.”
“If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, we will see how the time goes. A telephony option is always available to people who may not have internet access, or who are experiencing difficulties in accessing the service online. The DWP is also seeking to exploit new and emerging technology to keep in touch with claimants. We have introduced SMS text messaging for a number of service lines to confirm to customers receipt of their claims, information or documents, or to let them know when they can expect an outcome. Those changes reduce contact from claimants chasing updates, while increasing the overall customer service experience. The service operates for new claims for employment and support allowance and jobseeker’s allowance, and was introduced more recently to acknowledge receipt of fit notes.”
“I have here the print-out of that page. It lists a number of different telephone number prefixes. Members will be aware that these days there are more telephone number prefixes than when we were growing up. The service on the Government website is to help people to understand what it means if they see an 03, an 0845, or an 07 number. It lists a range of costs for geographic numbers—the numbers we have for our homes; the 01 and 02 numbers—and a range for 03 numbers, which is the same as the range for the geographic numbers. That is what the tariff reflects. I am happy to confirm to the hon. Gentleman that we have been through that information today. There are a couple of minor points on the gov.uk information site that need to be updated, but they do not relate to any of the number prefixes that are in use at present by the DWP.”
“Gentleman asked about the Social Security Advisory Committee’s recommendation. These things are technology-dependent. The review of our systems is current and we are committed to looking at that closely. Our telephony policy will be kept under review throughout this process and the Department will continue to seek to strike the right balance between the cost to citizens and the cost to the taxpayer. Question put and agreed to.”
“There is often facility for people to bring their own device and be helped to use that, because we do absolutely see digital capability—digital empowerment—as being vital, not just in the claiming of benefits, but in applying for work, and, of course, when getting into work, as there are few jobs these days that do not require some level of IT literacy. In conclusion, let me reassure hon. Members that the Department is absolutely committed to ensuring that costs for customers are kept to a minimum and that safeguards are in place for those who need them. The Department is in the process of transforming the way in which citizens interact with us, which I am sure hon. Members can appreciate will take us some time to deliver, given the range of services the Department delivers and the number of people we transact with every day. The hon.”
“The DWP does everything it can to stop customers being caught out and, in that instance, the same number was identified as appearing as an “infobox” on a search engine for universal credit alongside the genuine UC number. The DWP complained to that search-engine provider and the incorrect entry was removed. We have covered the question of the gov.uk tariff ranges. The hon. Gentleman also asked about steps being taken to improve access to, and people’s capability and confidence in using, IT equipment. As he will know from his visits to our jobcentres, we provide lobby equipment and encourage people to use it.”
“The DWP is aware of a small number of sites that advertise that type of service, primarily owned by the same individual. I strongly encourage internet search-engine providers actively to police and manage advertisers and subscribers who may look to profit from some vulnerable members of our society by advertising expensive or premium rate telephone lines as a route to access DWP services that are accessible directly through either freephone 0800 or local rate 0345 telephone numbers. The specific activity known as vishing, where a voicemail is left for the citizen to call back an unofficial number, is generally not widespread within the DWP— only one occurrence has been identified.”