Damian Hinds
MP for East Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“There are moments in debates like the one we have had today that are difficult to sit through and listen to, but it is the most immense privilege to be a Member of Parliament and to hear some of these testimonies.”
“Today is once again a day of heavy responsibility for all of us to decide on what we in this House call “conscience issues”. Many of the people who we represent hold strong and immutable views, and we hear from them. However, we represent many others who hold much more nuanced views and we are less likely to hear from them.”
“Members who support the Bill should not have their motives questioned, Members who oppose the Bill should not have their motives questioned, and Members who have reached a different conclusion from one they reached at an earlier stage should not have their judgment questioned either.”
“We have heard from royal colleges and other professional bodies, many of whom have a neutral stance on the principle but raise significant questions about particular aspects. We know from Ministers that there would need to be some reprioritisation of NHS resources, but we do not know the extent.”
“If there is the prospect of the Parliament Acts being used, that would increase the importance and the salience of the text as it is now. Today, it is reasonable and entirely in order for hon. Members to consider information that is available now that was not available in those previous parliamentary deliberation.”
“The Government have said, rightly, that the time taken to implement other schemes is not directly comparable, because none are as in this Bill. This is a free vote on a matter of conscience—there is no party line on either side of the Chamber. No one, I suggest, finds this issue easy.”
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“He alluded to the fact that he and I have exchanged correspondence on the issue of third parties seeking to make a profit out of calls to the DWP. As he rightly mentioned, that can happen with other services, too. I would like to take the opportunity of this debate to update Members on that important issue. I can confirm that my Department does not make any revenue out of calls to our publicised telephone numbers. We know that there is a small number of companies that seek to make money by providing an alternative, and usually more expensive, telephone number that then routes callers through to the Government helplines. Although that practice may be considered unethical, it is not illegal, provided the company does not pretend to be the Government and does not state that it is officially affiliated.”
“Obviously, we want the system to be as accurate as possible. We want to reduce the requirement for people to be in touch with the Department for those reasons. When they have to, we want that to be done as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I have outlined the Department’s policy. There is a range of 0800 numbers. The rest are 0345 numbers, which are equivalent to a normal, geographic land call. Typically, in a mobile phone contract or bundles on pay as you go, that would be included in the minutes that one has. We think that that is a fair and reasonable approach. There is still the option to request a call-back, too. I want to come on to some of the other issues that the hon. Gentleman raised.”
“The majority of jobs these days require some computer capability and competency, so it is also right that the system to help people into work is digital, too, as well as more efficient as a result.”
“UC removes the need to switch between different benefits as people move into and progress in work, simplifying the system and ensuring continuity. It provides a consistent taper for claimants as they move into and through work. The recent taper reduction will benefit 3 million claimants once UC is fully rolled out, providing further tangible and visible benefits to making progress in work. Thanks to the real-time information link, immediate adjustments can be made to the UC award, which is far beyond the blunt mechanism of annual reconciliation. That also means that people can quickly see the effect of the changes they are making. For the first time we now have simple levers to optimise the system, creating a fully dynamic and adaptable welfare system fit for the modern world. Digital is at the heart of the new system.”
“People throughout the country are therefore already benefiting from universal credit, and more will do so. The design and structure of UC is transformational in its focus on replicating the world of work. UC encourages claimants to take greater responsibility for their finances and incentivises them to earn more and to make progress once in work. A flexible, clear and tailored claimant commitment helps claimants to understand fully their responsibilities, and a work coach provides personalised support, helping people to stay close to the labour market and to overcome whatever barriers they have to work. Critically, universal credit removes the hours rules and the cliff edges that have long been a feature of our systems, plaguing legacy benefits and tax credits.”
“We must remember that universal credit picks up from a flawed pre-existing system and strives to solve a number of problems that have for some time been thought to be near intractable. In the old system, complexity and bureaucracy had often served to stifle the independence, to limit the choices and to constrain the outlook of its recipients. With UC, we are untangling the bureaucracy, strengthening the incentives and simplifying the system and the signals it gives. The behavioural effects we are seeing are strong. Claimants are responding to the clear incentives to work and, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) said, spending twice as much time looking for a job as they did under the legacy system: 113 people are moving into work under the new system for 100 under the old system.”
“The scale and nature of the change represented by universal credit is bound to cause some anxiety, but the benefits it brings are many, going far beyond the £7 billion in annual economic benefits and even beyond the advantages to claimants of simplicity, stronger work incentives and personalised support. UC represents a generation-changing culture shift in how welfare is delivered and how people are helped, creating a system that allows people to break free from being dependent on welfare, to take control of their lives and to move into work. That will have an impact on a large number of people: we estimate that by the time UC is fully rolled out, about 7 million recipients will benefit from the advantages of universal credit.”
“Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North has been in contact with the local district manager for Jobcentre Plus on more than one occasion and that she has been invited for a visit. A couple of hon. Members asked about the changes being made in the DWP estate. I reassure them that in the planning and modelling we of course account for all the changes to welfare systems and our support for claimants. An important point to make is that although we are changing some of the physical estate, which involves some jobcentres merging with others, we are not cutting back on our frontline people—in fact, we expect to have more work coaches working with and supporting people into and in work at the end of this process than we do at the beginning.”
“We are working quickly, and will continue to do so, to deal with any challenges, which will of course emerge, to ensure that universal credit is delivered safely and securely. I recognise that there are concerns, and I welcome another opportunity today to discuss and address them. As part of the UC full service implementation process, we had a full external stakeholder plan to ensure that those stakeholders have a proper introduction to the full service before it goes live in their area. The full service was launched at the Newcastle West jobcentre on 15 March 2017, making Newcastle one of the first core cities to transition fully to the service. I am also aware that the hon.”
“When last scrutinised by the Major Projects Authority, the programme was moved to an amber rating, which is rare for a project of this size. Even having the best team in charge is not necessarily enough: it has to be combined with the right project disciplines and the proper oversight to ensure success. That is why the team is implementing a fully developed, agile approach to delivery, explicitly designed to ensure that the service is continuously improved, based on the user feedback that I talked about, and is flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances or new information. The programme is also subject to comprehensive and rigorous review internally and externally. All that combines to create the safest, most secure programme delivery achievable.”
“Friends, using a test-and-learn approach to allow us to user-test the service and get immediate feedback. In such a large system and organisation, with so many branches and so complex a set of data, I admit that sometimes things go wrong. That is not unique to universal credit, but happens and has happened on occasion for many years throughout such systems. Of course we very much regret that when it does happen, but it does not change the fundamentals of what the universal credit programme is achieving. The longest-standing senior responsible owner and programme director in the programme’s history are in place, and both have been in post for well over two years. In that time the programme has stabilised and delivered all its key milestones on time and on budget.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Nuttall. I echo what the hon. Members for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) and for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) said about PC Keith Palmer and all the victims on that terrible day when last this debate was convened. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North on securing this important debate. We have had a wide-ranging debate today. Let me be clear at the outset that the roll-out of universal credit continues to plan. As Members are aware, universal credit is now in every jobcentre in the country. The programme has just passed an important milestone of more than 1 million claims. The service has been deliberately rolled out in a steady way, as alluded to by some of my hon.”
“If the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not, or I will run out of time. Let me assure the House that I recognise what a complex and important issue housing arrears are. Many different factors are at play. As colleagues know, UC pays housing costs directly to the claimants and they pay rent to their landlord. That mirrors the world of work, which is an important part of the fundamental culture change I mentioned. That of course has been the case for some time, since the Labour Government rolled out the local housing allowance in the private rented sector in April 2008.”
“I will give way to the hon. Lady, because it is her debate, but I am also conscious that I am running out of time and will not be able to cover everything.”
“I conclude by saying that we must continue to work together to resolve issues as they arise and ensure a successful roll-out. We are standing on the cusp of historic change in our welfare state—a dynamic and fundamental change that is already transforming lives for the better and will improve many more. This is welfare reform in action—changing the dynamics in the system, making things simpler and ensuring that work always pays, to the benefit of millions.”
“That includes a dedicated team to handle the processing of rental information for both claimants and landlords. In Newcastle upon Tyne North, the claimant count has come down by 36% since 2010, but of course we have to continue to support more and more people into work as they fulfil their potential and ambitions. Colleagues will know that implicit consent has been restored to MPs. There are particular sensitivities and difficulties about the breadth with which implicit consent can be granted, given the depth of personal and sensitive information within universal credit to which the individual claimant holds the key, but claimants are able to give explicit consent to advice agencies and so on as appropriate. I fear that I am out of time.”
“There have been some delays in the payment of the UC housing element, largely because of, for example, mismatches between what claimants tell us and what landlords tell us is the rent due. We continue to work on process improvements around that. The pre-existing system was itself far from perfect, and we believe the processing times for the UC housing element are about the same as those for local authorities paying housing benefit. According to research by the national organisation for ALMOs—arm’s length management organisations—three quarters of tenants on universal credit were already in arrears before coming on to UC. Nevertheless, we continue to address those issues and we recognise that further improvements can still be made.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making the important point about the timing of payments to individuals. No one should wait more than 45 days for their first UC payments, unless they are exempt from waiting days, which the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned. Various exemptions include those for prison leavers and for people coming across from other benefits, such as income-related JSA or ESA. For those exempt from the waiting days, the wait is no more than 38 days. A claimant who cannot wait that long, however, may apply for an advance of up to 50% of the total award to provide support through to the UC payment being made. That is an important facility, and we continue to work on raising awareness of its availability.”
“The number of young people in my hon. Friend’s constituency claiming out-of-work benefits has fallen by more than half in the past four years, and he is right to highlight the large number of vacancies—over three quarters of a million nationwide. Alongside promoting work experience and apprenticeships, the Government will soon be rolling out the youth obligation, providing additional intensive support for young people from day one.”
“Long-term youth unemployment is down 111,000 overall since 2010, and it is down 30,000 on the year. We put particular resource into and focus on the individual areas around the country that need additional support. I encourage more firms to come forward and join the work experience programme, because we know that the experience of actual work is one of the most fundamental things to help young people to move into a regular job.”
“May I first acknowledge and recognise my right hon. Friend’s particular expertise in this area? I met the National Autistic Society at the party conference, as a number of colleagues did, and some of the statistics she mentions are indeed very striking. The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work is bringing forward, through the Green Paper process, a particular focus on the talents, abilities and potential of people with autism, which will be key.”
“This is a generational shift in investment in the skills base. The levy is an important part of ensuring that all firms of a particular size are incentivised to take part, and the new Institute for Apprenticeships will guarantee the quality of apprenticeships. I think that that will benefit the entire country.”
“The roll-out of universal credit continues to roll out to plan— [Laughter.] About a million claims have now been taken, and the full universal credit service for all claimant types is available in 53 jobcentres.”
“We continue to work closely with partners and stakeholders to ensure that this service is a success. There are some questions about passported benefits and we continue to work through them.”
“Universal credit is a transformational benefit. It converts six benefits into one, which means working with one organisation and not three. It supports people into work and makes sure not only that work pays, but that it is visible to the individual that work pays. It is indeed transformational in our system.”
“We will not call a halt to the roll-out, because it would be unfair and wrong to deprive people in Scotland or elsewhere of the advantages that the universal credit system brings. We continue to work on improving processes and accelerating delivery, including with respect to housing, and a number of improvements have already been made, with more in train.”
“The purpose of the limit on support through universal credit or tax credits to the first two children, in the case of new claims and new births, is to reduce our welfare spending and to target it in a particular way— [Interruption.] In some 85% of families that include children, there are one or two children. When it came to determining where necessary reductions must be made, this was the correct way of doing that. The hon. Lady talks about rising inequality. I simply mention to her that inequality is down, and that household incomes are at a record level.”
“The Department has sought to maintain the services that it offers claimants while minimising the impact on claimants as far as possible. These proposals may mean slightly longer and slightly shorter journeys for some individual claimants, and that has been taken into account in the setting of the criteria.”
“I hope that I can provide the hon. Gentleman with some comfort. First, let me say that saving money is not a bad thing in itself; it is a good thing, and this overall programme will save some £180 million nationwide. That means that we can reinvest in frontline staff, which will have the biggest effect on helping people to return to work. As for the specific case of Sheffield, the changes will increase the utilisation of the entire estate from 51% to 69% when some of the business moves, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, to the other two sites.”
“I look forward very much to reading the report. We know that any day spent unemployed can have a lasting effect on people, especially at the start of their careers when they are young, and it is therefore particularly important for us to redouble our efforts.”
“All the staff and services from Eastern Avenue will move to Bailey Court in West Street and Cavendish Court in Bank Street. I can reassure the hon. Lady that we have, of course, taken account in our projections and modelling of the exact space that will be required for those people and that level of workload.”
“We have embarked on a programme of change which comes at the end of a 20-year private finance initiative contract. There is both an opportunity and a requirement to review what is needed on the estate. Rents are particularly high in London, and are therefore particularly challenging in the commercial market. We have sought to minimise the effect on claimants, to ensure that there is a good coverage of services within reach, and to run a consultation when a new jobcentre is more than 3 miles away and a journey on public transport takes more than 20 minutes.”
“Throughout the development of these proposals, we have been mindful at every turn of the impact on staff and customers. Both statistical analysis and local knowledge have informed the proposals, which are still subject to consultation with staff and, when appropriate, with the public.”
“No, we have been mindful throughout of our duties under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010. Equality analysis will help to inform the final decision-making process, and it is an integral part of the thinking and process throughout.”
“There are a number of very good local projects working with local organisations. I do not have the list in front of me, but there is some good work going on, and we seek to find where best practice exists and see how far it can be replicated.”
“I welcome the news from my hon. Friend’s constituency, which has seen such a strong fall in unemployment. I certainly acknowledge the key role played by third sector organisations. We continue to work with outside organisations and on programmes such as work experience, sector-based work academies, the new youth obligation and, of course, the roll-out of universal credit.”
“Universal credit is a massive reform. I know of no other country with a comparable system that stays with people from being out of work to supporting them in work. Are there challenges in implementing that? Yes, of course there are, but the transformational benefits in sight are immense.”
“I take that point on board, and we are embarking on a number of co-locations as part of the current programme. Co-location can be good both for claimants and for the taxpayer: for claimants because more of the services they need to access are in one place, and, of course, for the taxpayer by making better use of the public estate.”
“I cannot comment on an individual case, but I can say that, in general, we know that less than 3% of people report that they rely on a zero-hours contract. We know that, on average, those people get 25 hours a week and actually have above-average levels of job satisfaction. Zero-hours contracts are certainly not for everybody, but they do work for some people.”
“We have female employment at a near record rate, which is to be celebrated. We have seen the gender pay gap come down, but there is more work to do. A number of things have to fall into place for that to happen, but one of the key things happening this year is, of course, the extension of childcare to 30 hours a week for three and four-year-olds. Parents on universal credit get 85% reimbursement, rather than 70%, and we have tax-free childcare, too.”
“There is, of course, the facility for rent to be paid directly to landlords where necessary, and we are streamlining the process for doing that. However, we think that the general principle is right that most people in receipt of universal credit should know what their housing liabilities are and pay their rent when they are out of work and when they are in work.”
“The hon. Gentleman and I, and many of his colleagues and others from across the House, have had a number of opportunities to debate these matters and to go through individual cases, on individual locations, one by one. We used a variety of sources to determine travel times and “reasonableness” of travel. The ministerial criteria say that if somewhere is within 3 miles or 20 minutes by public transport, it is reasonable to ask somebody to make that journey; otherwise, we have a public consultation.”
“Jobseeker’s allowance or universal credit should be available to people of working age. I will have to look at the details of the case the hon. Lady mentioned, if she would like to get in contact.”
“Bringing together local stakeholders, trying to address the details, and helping people to solve problems is important to ensuring the safe delivery of this historic reform. The hon. Gentleman has spoken, too, of the diligence, commitment and work ethic of our key stakeholders, local partners and staff, and I echo that. Looking ahead to other highland areas that are due to roll out the universal credit full service, our implementation strategy is under way and we will soon be having conversations at a more local level. The remaining jobcentre sites aligned to the Highland Council area will roll out in July 2017 and, as part of the implementation activities, we have an external plan to ensure that all involved have a proper overview of universal credit before it arrives at the jobcentres.”
“Members that we are working quickly to deal with them to ensure that UC is delivered safely and securely. I recognise specifically that the hon. Gentleman has encountered a number of universal credit claimants who have had issues with the service, and I am aware that he has already been in discussion with the Department for Work and Pensions district manager for the north of Scotland, who has invited him into the local jobcentre to assist in mutual understanding of the issues. I also acknowledge what the hon. Gentleman says in outlining occasions where things have gone wrong—if something has been mislaid and so on—and, of course, for those occasions I am sorry. I commend what the hon. Gentleman is doing both for and with local organisations and his constituents.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) on securing a debate on this important matter and bringing his feedback and critique to the Floor of the House today. I recognise the concerns that have been raised, and I want to reassure the hon. Gentleman that work is already well under way to improve delivery. Today’s debate presents an opportunity to share some of the ways in which the Department has sought, and is seeking, to resolve obstacles to this ground-breaking project. There are now 470,000 people on universal credit, 2,400 of whom are in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. As we would expect of a full-scale reform programme of this magnitude, there have been challenges along the way, but I assure hon.”
“Let me thank the hon. Gentleman for that offer. I welcome the opportunity to speak to local organisations throughout the country. My most recent visit to a jobcentre was this morning, and I plan to make another on Thursday. There are several hundred jobcentres throughout the country, and my aim is to get representative feedback and critiques to help our understanding of these issues. I also welcome the communication that I have had from and with the hon. Gentleman in that regard.”
“A landlord who previously charged rent on a weekly basis will of course appear to be missing rent payments under the new system, which pays claimants’ housing costs on a monthly cycle in arrears. We have been clear about the reasons for this change. The key motivation is to create a welfare system that more closely mirrors the world of work. Our research shows that the majority of UC claimants are comfortable managing their own budgets. Furthermore, we know that after four months, the proportion of UC claimants who were in arrears at the start of their claim fell by a third.”
“I know that it is an issue that matters to a lot of people, but the reality is that a lot of complex, overlapping factors are at play. The roll-out of universal credit is by no means the sole factor contributing to arrears. Let us consider for a moment that, according to the latest report published by the National Federation for Arm’s-Length Management Organisations, over three quarters of its ALMO tenants who have fallen into arrears were already behind with their rent before commencing their universal credit claim. Some of the rent arrears are clearly attributable to the charging policies of landlords that can create book arrears from the outset of a tenancy. This is a simple definitional point.”
“I will not, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. We have established a dedicated team of employer and partnership staff, who are deployed to engage directly with stakeholders, including local authorities and landlords, to ensure that there is a joined-up approach to supporting universal credit claimants. I know that housing arrears are an area of concern, which is why that is a regular subject of discussion in our Highland operational forum. Discussing the issues in this way has led to the introduction of some effective troubleshooting measures. To begin with, we are embarking on a specific piece of work to monitor Highland Council cases involving housing costs, to try to establish the root causes of any delays in the process. I appreciate the concerns over rent arrears.”