Damian Hinds
MP for East Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“There are moments in debates like the one we have had today that are difficult to sit through and listen to, but it is the most immense privilege to be a Member of Parliament and to hear some of these testimonies.”
“Today is once again a day of heavy responsibility for all of us to decide on what we in this House call “conscience issues”. Many of the people who we represent hold strong and immutable views, and we hear from them. However, we represent many others who hold much more nuanced views and we are less likely to hear from them.”
“Members who support the Bill should not have their motives questioned, Members who oppose the Bill should not have their motives questioned, and Members who have reached a different conclusion from one they reached at an earlier stage should not have their judgment questioned either.”
“We have heard from royal colleges and other professional bodies, many of whom have a neutral stance on the principle but raise significant questions about particular aspects. We know from Ministers that there would need to be some reprioritisation of NHS resources, but we do not know the extent.”
“If there is the prospect of the Parliament Acts being used, that would increase the importance and the salience of the text as it is now. Today, it is reasonable and entirely in order for hon. Members to consider information that is available now that was not available in those previous parliamentary deliberation.”
“The Government have said, rightly, that the time taken to implement other schemes is not directly comparable, because none are as in this Bill. This is a free vote on a matter of conscience—there is no party line on either side of the Chamber. No one, I suggest, finds this issue easy.”
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“The hon. Lady makes a very important point. If she will forgive me, I am coming to that a little later in my remarks, and I will cover it then. Hamas formally established Hamas IDQ in 1992. IDQ was proscribed by the UK in March 2001. At the time, it was determined that there was a distinction between the political and military wings of Hamas, and that the only part of the organisation that was concerned in terrorism, and should therefore be proscribed, was the military wing. Over the past 20 years, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) said, Hamas’s so-called military and political wings have grown closer together, with any distinction between them now considered to be artificial. The Government’s assessment is that Hamas is a complex but single organisation made up of constituent parts, one of which includes Hamas IDQ.”
“Proscription is an Executive tool based on assessment from security departments and across Government. The proscription regime itself is scrutinised by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, who makes annual reports on how the Government use their counter-terrorism powers. Of course, in debating this order today, we have an opportunity to consider it specifically.”
“As he will know, it is a cross-Government group, chaired by the Home Office, that supports the Home Secretary in her decision making on proscription issues and remains active. I absolutely reassure the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) of the rigour of the process on this and every occasion. We constantly keep the list of proscribed organisations under review. The evidence for that is that over the past two years we have proscribed the extreme right-wing terrorist groups Sonnenkrieg Division, Feuerkrieg Division and Atomwaffen Division, as well as the militant white-supremacist group called the Base. We have also added four aliases to the list of proscribed organisations, as well as this order to extend the proscription of Hamas. There was a question about whether there should be more consultation in respect of a proscription.”
“The Home Secretary and I strongly believe that the proscription of Hamas IDQ should be extended to cover the entire organisation. Subject to the agreement of this House and the other place, the order will come into force on Friday 26 November. Before continuing, I extend my thanks and pay tribute to the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), for the tone and content of what he said, and for his support and that of his right hon. and hon. colleagues for the order. I join in the praise that he rightly gave to our counter-terrorism police, the rest of the policing family, the agencies and everybody who works so hard to keep us safe. I shall try to address what the shadow Home Secretary said, starting specifically with the proscription review group.”
“The shadow Home Secretary asked about that, as did the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) and others. The Government recently published guidance to support our NGOs to operate overseas in high-risk jurisdictions while complying with the counter-terrorism legislative framework and sanctions regime. A specific section refers to proscription, including how to operate around what are known as sections 11 to 13 offences. That is guidance, and we encourage our NGOs to seek legal advice in relation to specific activities and ensure compliance with terrorism legislation. The UK will continue to work with international partners and NGOs to support the people of Gaza, including through our long-standing support of the United Nations—”
“As I have said, the group in its entirety is assessed to be concerned with terrorism, with the lines that the Government had previously drawn between its constituent parts now being assessed as artificial. My right hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick) spoke movingly and with great passion about the terrible case of 26-year-old Eli Kay. Ultimately, it is a reminder of what we are discussing here—the end result of terror and why it is essential that our Government and Governments around the world be constantly attentive to the threat of terrorism and do what is required to mitigate that threat. A number of colleagues across the House spoke about the position of NGOs and related matters. Implicitly, the question is, would this stop the work of UK NGOs or others in location?”
“We keep proscription—including not only whether organisations that are not proscribed should be but whether the proscription of those that are remains the correct and proportionate approach—under constant review. The shadow Home Secretary and others asked implicitly—in fact, the hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith), who spoke for the SNP, asked explicitly—why now? It is because we keep the response to terrorism under continual review. It is entirely appropriate that we take all available opportunities to strengthen the UK’s response to domestic and international threats. The extension of the proscription of Hamas is part of that response.”
“Members across the House to support the order. Question put and agreed to . Resolved , That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 2021, which was laid before this House on 19 November, be approved.”
“We support a negotiated settlement leading to a safe and secure Israel living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state, based on the 1967 borders, with agreed land swaps, Jerusalem as the shared capital of both states, and on a just, fair, agreed and realistic settlement for refugees. Proscription is not targeted at any particular faith, social grouping or ideological motivation. It is based on clear evidence that an organisation is concerned with terrorism as assessed by the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre. We are clear that, based on the available evidence, it is appropriate for the Home Secretary to exercise her discretion to proscribe Hamas in its entirety. It is our duty to support the order to protect the public from the noxious ideologies that Hamas holds. That being the case, I urge hon. and right hon.”
“It is important to stress that a number of donor partners already list Hamas in its entirety and still continue to deliver significant humanitarian development programmes in the region. Specifically on the point raised—not with me, but with her colleague, the hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith)—by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) about her charity work on breast cancer, for which I commend her, and more widely on the position of smaller NGOs, I am happy to follow that up with her separately if that is helpful. Finally, a number of colleagues raised the overall position of the middle east peace process. The UK’s long-standing position on that has not changed.”
“I think my hon. Friend will appreciate that I am not in a position, standing at the Dispatch Box, to give guarantees about unspecified activities in which he or others may or may not be involved in the future. This is an order specifically to proscribe this organisation in its entirety. The legislation is clear about the activities that that covers, including support for the organisation, and particular ways of using emblems and so on in support of it, or in ways that would reasonably be considered to be in support of it, and I direct him to that guidance. Let me come back to what I was saying about NGOs. We will continue to work with international partners and NGOs to support the people in Gaza.”
“First, I can confirm that the case has been drawn to the attention of Her Majesty’s ambassador to Yemen, who can make representations about the matter to the Government of Yemen. I am also, of course, very happy to meet my hon. Friend away from the Floor of the House to discuss the case more fully, and we should be in touch on that immediately. I would like to thank my hon. Friend for seeking this important debate.”
“Ministers do not have the powers to make a request or direction to them to open an investigation. In our system, that would not be appropriate. I am entirely sympathetic to my hon. Friend’s determination to seek justice for his constituents. I am also sure that he will appreciate the principle of the operational independence of the police and of how operational decisions and, ultimately, prosecution decisions are made. Indeed, the police must be able to operate free of political influence or interference, even in cases as tragic, emotive and difficult as this one. Where there is a case for further action, we would of course expect them to take appropriate action. While I regret that I am not in a position to agree to the requests my hon. Friend set out in his speech, I will do—and want to do—what I can to help support David’s family.”
“The Metropolitan police assured us that, over the last 10 years, SO15 has sought to assist other agencies with the appropriate jurisdiction and will continue to do so. It is the case that Yemeni authorities have overall responsibility for the homicide investigation and there are very limited circumstances where UK police can take primacy on an investigation into a murder overseas. The Metropolitan police is of the view that the circumstances in this case are such that UK police do not have legal authority. My late predecessor, our friend James Brokenshire, wrote to my hon. Friend in 2020 in response to his correspondence, as he will recall. As noted in that letter, the police and the National Crime Agency are operationally independent, as he noted in his closing remarks.”
“Their determination and perseverance in seeking justice is entirely understandable and right, and of course we must do what we can to deliver on that. As my hon. Friend said, the Metropolitan police counter-terrorism command, known as SO15, supported the Yemeni authorities and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as it was then known. That command has unique expertise in assisting with complex cases in other countries. In 2011, a senior SO15 officer conducted a scoping exercise on the circumstances around Mr Mockett’s death to assist the UK coroner, and he subsequently gave evidence at the inquest. The coroner concluded that the murder was most likely criminally motivated. I understand that SO15 has worked closely with the City of London police, which carried out a fraud investigation linked to the case, as my hon. Friend mentioned.”
“It was with great sadness that we heard yesterday of a body being found in the search for 18-year-old Bobbi-Anne McLeod. Our thoughts and prayers, and those of the whole House, are with her family. I join my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter) in his praise and thanks of the emergency services. I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate on the tragic case of the late Captain David Mockett. My hon. Friend has long campaigned on the case and has shown great determination in seeking justice on behalf of his constituents, the family of Captain Mockett. I hear what my hon. Friend says about his continuing commitment in that regard. I also express my sympathies to the Mockett family for the tragic loss of their husband and father, and of a professional who was clearly highly respected in his field.”
“Of course, I am not going to say no to my hon. Friend on that question. I do not know what the prospects might be, but, yes, of course I can do that, and specifically, when he and I meet, we can discuss it. I was just coming to the end of my remarks, but I wish to finish by once again extending my own deepest sympathies and, on their behalf, those of colleagues in the Home Office and the Home Secretary to the family and friends of Captain Mockett. Question put and agreed to.”
“Online fraud can cause very serious harm to victims, both financial and emotional. We are determined to protect the public from these crimes and to go after those that commit them. The draft Online Safety Bill will be one important tool to enhance our abilities in that.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the 7726 service, because referrals to that help to build up the intelligence on SMS fraudsters or scam texters and can help to lead to take-downs. It is really important that law enforcement works both with regulators and directly with individual telecoms companies to protect victims and go after the criminals responsible.”
“I, too, wish to associate myself with your words, Mr Speaker, and those of the Home Secretary in memory of our two cherished friends, David and James—outstanding parliamentarians both. James, among his many other accomplishments, was also an exceptionally effective and highly respected Security Minister, in which role he set the enduring example. As well as by colleagues in this House, he is very much missed by officials in the Home Office and by the agencies and partners with which he worked. Online fraud and scams have a devastating impact, and we are taking action to protect the public and make it harder for fraudsters to operate. The online safety Bill will tackle some of the highest harm frauds online.”
“The hon. Lady is exactly right to identify the wickedness of pension scams picking on people, often at a time of weakness, which is part of a wider field of investment scams. As she will know, the online safety Bill is currently going through pre-legislative scrutiny, which is an opportunity for issues to be fleshed out. She is absolutely right that the Government focus remains very much on the pension scams that she mentions.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for that question, which follows on from what the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith) was saying. It is very important that we raise awareness of how people can protect themselves from these scams and the things to look out for. We need to encourage reporting so that we can build up a wider picture. It is also very important that we focus on victim support when these crimes have occurred and that we prevent re-victimisation. We are increasing our efforts in that area.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman twice over: for what he said at the start and for his expression of support for doing what we must to ensure that we disrupt the terrible messaging, propaganda and ways of association that can have the most horrific outcomes and consequences, and thwart those efforts. There are important steps on illegal content in the online safety Bill that will improve our arsenal and toolkit. However, we must also work in particular on end-to-end encryption and platforms deliberately blinding themselves against being able to take down very harmful material. I look forward to working with him on that.”
“I will certainly meet my hon. Friend, who I recognise has done a lot of work in this area. I want to make it clear that where people are engaged in illegal abuse, they can be identified and prosecuted via existing legislation—the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and the Investigatory Powers Act 2016—but I accept that there are more aspects to this. I am happy to meet her and look forward to hearing her thoughts.”
“We are consulting on proposals to extend the security requirement in part Q of the building regulations to existing homes too. The intention of the proposed changes is to help ensure that refurbished properties are fitted only with products, such as doors and windows, that meet security standards. As my hon. Friend will know, it is currently applicable only to new homes.”
“A further £25 million for round 3 of the fund will be targeted at improving the safety of public spaces, with a primary focus on the safety of women and girls. That brings the total investment in the safer streets fund to £70 million. The beating crime plan also sets out wider action that the Government are taking to improve home security, which includes embedding security standards and crime prevention principles within the national model design code and developing minimum standards as part of the review of a housing health and safety rating system, to ensure that domestic security is not just a privilege for some. We are considering how we can go further in using the decent homes standard to keep social housing residents secure and help tackle antisocial behaviour.”
“We are making progress, but we will never be complacent when it comes to keeping the public safe. Over the summer, the Government published the beating crime plan, which sets out our blueprint for driving down crime. We are providing £45 million through rounds 1 and 2 of the safer streets fund to support areas across England and Wales that are disproportionately affected by crimes such as burglary and theft to invest in proven situational, physical crime prevention measures, such as street lighting and home security. Round 1 supported 52 projects across 35 police and crime commissioner areas in the 2020-21 financial year. Round 2 is being delivered in the following financial year, supporting a further 50 projects across 39 PCC areas.”
“The regulations also outlaw behaviour that falls short of the requirements of professional due diligence, carrying criminal penalties enforced by local authority trading standards officers. The Government recognise the terrible impact that acquisitive crime can have on individuals, families, businesses and the wider community. That includes, especially, the invasive nature of burglary, the cost and disruption when vehicles and other tools of the trade that people rely on to earn a living are stolen, and the loss of cherished items that simply cannot be replaced. Those crimes should of course be reported to the police so that they can be investigated appropriately. As Members know, we are boosting the police workforce through the uplift campaign, which has so far delivered almost half of the 20,000 additional officers promised by 2023.”
“The scheme is approved by the police crime prevention initiative, Secured by Design, which sets the industry gold standard for security products and interventions to design out crime. Consumers have the choice in who they seek to undertake locksmith work. We encourage them to use the information available to them, including that which can be found on the Master Locksmiths Association website, to ensure they receive quality work at fair rates. I would encourage members of the public to utilise the association’s advice, and locksmiths to make use of the scheme, too. There is a robust consumer protection framework in place that all traders, including locksmiths, must comply with. Consumers are protected from being misled about the products or services they purchase by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.”
“Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight) says about increasing levels of criminality since the passage of the 2001 Act, but much of the argument focuses on poor workmanship. As my right hon. Friend touched on in his intervention, rogue locksmiths overcharge for substandard services. The Government have not seen evidence of unlicensed locksmiths contributing to the incidence of neighbourhood crime, such as burglary. It is important that the Government do not increase regulation and the burden on businesses unless there is an absolutely compelling case. In this case, the Master Locksmiths Association already has a robust accreditation scheme in place to ensure that approved locksmiths are appropriately vetted, inspected and qualified.”
“It is important that the public can access quality workmanship by trained and qualified professionals. The Government are focused on driving down crime in all its guises, including neighbourhood crimes such as burglary. We are taking concerted action to make our streets, neighbourhoods and communities safer, including by backing the police with more officers, powers and resources. Locksmiths were excluded from the Private Security Industry Act 2001 as there was no evident high level of criminality in that sector, and there were a significant number of small businesses in the sector. The Government were conscious of how a regulatory burden may place a barrier in the way of expanding and developing those small businesses. Those points remain relevant to the locksmith industry today. I hear what my right hon.”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Ms Bardell. I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby—and Bulkington—(Mark Pawsey) on securing this debate. I thank him for his thoughtful contribution. He is a well-known, assiduous champion for his constituents and for organisations in his constituency, and I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss these important matters. I recognise the important service that the locksmith industry provides—it is often a distress purchase in difficult circumstances, as my hon. Friend said. There is clearly a need for such services to be delivered to a high standard for the purposes of safety, security and peace of mind. I also recognise the risk posed when the standards for delivery of these services are left unchecked.”
“Friend for securing this important debate and for the thoughtful contribution that he made. The fight against crime is a key priority for the Government, and I can assure hon. Members on both sides that we will continue doing everything in our power to make our villages, towns and cities safer. Question put and agreed to.”
“That scheme, which is approved by the police crime prevention initiative, Secured by Design, ensures that approved locksmiths are appropriately inspected and qualified to deliver the services required by customers—as he rightly says, sometimes in very difficult circumstances. The association also provides guidance and advice to consumers on pricing, products and equipment, hiring locksmiths and how to spot scammers. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Master Locksmiths Association for its efforts to ensure that the public are further protected against scammers and rogue traders via its approval scheme. As I said, I would encourage members of the public to utilise the association’s advice, and I would also encourage locksmiths to use the scheme. Let me end by expressing my thanks once again to my hon.”
“Of course, we are always open to representations and want to hear from trusted voices in the industry. I would encourage the association to continue engaging with officials at the Home Office. I am coming towards the end of my remarks, so let me set out our overall position. Any broadening of the remit of the Security Industry Authority would require careful consideration of how we balance public protection against the ability of the sector to operate effectively before we embarked on what would obviously be a required legislative process. As yet, we do not judge that there has been a sufficient business case to justify the licensing of locksmiths under the Private Security Industry Act 2001. As my hon. Friend knows, there is already a robust certification scheme in place from the Master Locksmiths Association.”
“The Sponsor Body, supported by the Delivery Authority, is currently developing the detailed plan that will for the first time give an accurate sense of the costs and timescales and the full detail of the work needed for restoration and renewal. It will be put before both Houses for a decision before works commence. Securing best value for money is fundamental.”
“My hon. Friend is right to mention the terrible fire at Notre-Dame, which serves as a reminder to us all of the risk to our great heritage assets. He is also right that putting off works tends to increase costs eventually, so I agree entirely about the time-sensitivity of action and thank him for his timely reminder.”
“Restoring Parliament will use UK materials wherever possible and create jobs and apprenticeships in the supply chain across the UK, from high-tech design to traditional stonemasonry. My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that the project has already engaged with a Harrogate business providing professional services on procuring works on a value-for-money and UK-wide basis.”
“I do agree. My hon. Friend is right: it will be a large sum of money, and it is essential not only that best value is secured for that money, but that the benefits of it are spread, and visibly so, across the country. The programme is currently working on its supply chain plans and is already recruiting. The shared apprenticeship scheme is an example of an innovative approach to make sure that smaller firms can also share in the benefits of the programme.”
“Some of these vile abusers are totally open, but the cloak of anonymity does embolden others. It also opens the door for hostile actors, with the divisive exploitation that can sometimes follow. As the Minister said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Felicity Buchan), anonymity is important in some contexts, including, for example, for survivors of domestic abuse, but it does not follow that it is therefore required in all contexts. If someone is communicating online in their own identity, should they not be able to say that they want to hear from and be commented on only by other people who are using their own identity? Will the Government please look at that again in the Online Safety Bill?”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that wide range of measures. May I also encourage her to work closely with colleagues at the Department for Education and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport on an expanded children’s sports and activity plan, both in and out of school, to try to make 60 minutes a day as much a norm as five-a-day fruit and vegetables by bringing in the power of sports clubs and the governing bodies, and finally getting more school facilities available for out-of-hours use?”
“I strongly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and the return to normality and stability with the contingencies and safeguards he set out. Does he agree that although people sometimes talk about a balance between education and health objectives, actually overwhelmingly they go together because being in school is so important for children’s mental and physical health? Indeed, for some children there is also a safety protective factor.”
“As we come out of this pandemic, children must of course be at the very top of our list of priorities, but it is also an opportunity to put many things that we do and the way that we do them on a surer, longer-term footing.”
“The third problem has been that the formula itself sometimes makes long-term planning harder for schools and is therefore less efficient. It does not reflect fully year-to-year swings in pupil numbers and the fact that although some costs are fully variable with the number of pupils in school, some are fixed at different levels—at the level of individual classes or of the school. The approach is not sufficiently long-term to enable schools, which are relatively small financial units in the public sector, to plan properly. It would be good to have rolling three-year or five-year budgets. Obviously, I know that the Treasury dislikes that and that, historically, whoever has been in government, we have operated through spending review periods, but there is a good case for re-examining that.”
“Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) in the Children and Families Act 2014 extended rights to extra support, but the strains on high-needs funding go wider and are longer term. Steps have been taken, but we need to do more. That includes, in capital terms, state special school places, but it also includes early intervention support within mainstream settings, including in early years, and a complete reappraisal of the way that financial transfers and some of the potential disincentives work within the system. There is also a case for looking again at how assistants who specifically look after and assist children with special educational needs are employed, so that it is easier for them to move between schools, and so on, as children themselves move on.”
“School funding in this country by international standards is relatively high, and every year the OECD publishes tables that show that. There are many different measures, and although whichever one we pick, people will say, “You’ve picked the wrong one,” they all show that this country’s spend on state education at primary and secondary level is relatively high. However, there have been three issues with the way that we fund schools. First, the Department for Education has been dealing for some years now with historical disparities between different parts of the country. In some ways that is a painful process to go through, but it does result in a fairer outcome. The second issue is strains in the high-needs block. The reforms introduced by my hon.”
“To address those challenges we need a broad approach. I have talked about a whole-of-society response, but there are obviously multiple strands required from Government as well. That needs to include an acceleration of the measures in the children and young people’s mental health Green Paper for example, a refreshed school sports and activity plan, and much more. This is about children at all stages and all phases. I welcome the additional resourcing in the estimate for early years, and also the funding for the extra learning time for T-levels, as part of the upgrade of our technical and vocational education. My right hon. Friend has long campaigned for a long-term plan for education. We talk a lot about building back better, and I think this should be the moment when we put that long-term plan in place, particularly on funding.”
“We cannot, for example, will into existence many more tutors who are suitably qualified and of the quality we would expect. There is clearly a role for extra time but that, too, requires careful application and needs to recognise that there is no common starting point. Different schools in different places currently have very different school days. There is, by the way, room in extra time for academic catch-up. In spite of his extensive intervention on my right hon Friend, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), who speaks for the Opposition, still managed—rather skilfully—to avoid taking a position on that question. Extra time is clearly not only about academic catch-up, because so much of what has been missed is about enrichment—about character building, personal development, and the sheer joy of growing up and being with other children.”
“I commend and congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing this debate and on all the work that he and his Committee do. He set out very effectively the extent of the differential impact on children over this past year and a little. Like him and other colleagues across the House, I pay tribute to school leaders, teachers and staff, in East Hampshire and throughout the country. I am speaking in support of the main estimate and the subsequent announcements from the DFE, which we anticipate will be reflected in the supplementary estimate. I also note that the Government have said that we have not heard the last word on support for education catch-up or acceleration, and of course that is not only about money.”
“Restoring Parliament will benefit businesses in the UK, using UK materials wherever possible and creating jobs and apprenticeships nationwide—including, I hope, in my hon. Friend’s constituency—in fields from engineering and high-tech design to traditional crafts such as carpentry and stonemasonry.”