Damian Hinds
MP for East Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“There are moments in debates like the one we have had today that are difficult to sit through and listen to, but it is the most immense privilege to be a Member of Parliament and to hear some of these testimonies.”
“Today is once again a day of heavy responsibility for all of us to decide on what we in this House call “conscience issues”. Many of the people who we represent hold strong and immutable views, and we hear from them. However, we represent many others who hold much more nuanced views and we are less likely to hear from them.”
“Members who support the Bill should not have their motives questioned, Members who oppose the Bill should not have their motives questioned, and Members who have reached a different conclusion from one they reached at an earlier stage should not have their judgment questioned either.”
“We have heard from royal colleges and other professional bodies, many of whom have a neutral stance on the principle but raise significant questions about particular aspects. We know from Ministers that there would need to be some reprioritisation of NHS resources, but we do not know the extent.”
“If there is the prospect of the Parliament Acts being used, that would increase the importance and the salience of the text as it is now. Today, it is reasonable and entirely in order for hon. Members to consider information that is available now that was not available in those previous parliamentary deliberation.”
“The Government have said, rightly, that the time taken to implement other schemes is not directly comparable, because none are as in this Bill. This is a free vote on a matter of conscience—there is no party line on either side of the Chamber. No one, I suggest, finds this issue easy.”
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“Full publicity will be made available by HMRC nearer the time through a variety of channels. This will be targeted to reach all exporters whose details it is reasonable to foresee will be published. HMRC will use not only gov.uk and its own website, uktradeinfo.com, but its own forum for engaging directly with trade representatives in the international trade sector, the joint customs consultative committee. The same legal disclosure standards relating to importer information will be applied and the same website will be used to disclose the information. Commercial confidentiality will be protected to avoid disclosure where there are fewer than three exporters exporting goods in the same commodity code in the same month. This mirrors the arrangement for importers.”
“This measure seeks to bring exporter information into line, to enable HMRC to provide a better quality, comprehensive and joined-up service to UK exporters and others. Today, HMRC receives many requests from the public and other Government Departments for access to exporter information, which it is unable to provide. HMRC is often asked why it can provide this for importers but not for exporters, a not unreasonable question. The service will be provided without unduly prejudicing the protection and privacy that exporters rightly enjoy. The information originates from customs declarations made to HMRC at the time the goods are exported. It will be made available via a unique HMRC website called uktradeinfo.com. HMRC hopes to have this service up and running around the beginning of April and there will be no charge for accessing it.”
“For the benefit of the Committee, I have an example of the existing imports version of this dataset, copies of which are available for Members who wish to peruse it. For the benefit of Hansard I will read out the field names: company name; com code, which is the commodity code; description, which is the description of that commodity class; the month imported; and the address. On the document, we can see only the first line of the address, but further lines are available by scrolling to the right of the screen. It is important to make the point that this type of data has been available publically in relation to importers for many years. That popular service receives about 60,000 hits a month.”
“If this kind of web service existed for UK exporters, it would also assist the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills’s reshoring strategy by allowing UK companies to find local suppliers for goods in their supply chain, which they currently buy from abroad. The information to be disclosed will be limited to the following items: the business name and address; a code to identify the type of goods exported, known as the commodity code; a description of the category of goods covered by the commodity code in question; and the month and year of export. Specifically, it does not include the value of the goods, the specific customer or the non-EU country to which they are being sold.”
“It will effectively provide free advertising to UK exporters and help foreign buyers to find UK goods online. It will also assist in the reshoring of supply chains. Organisations that represent SMEs, such as the Federation of Small Businesses, are in favour of releasing the data because they say that that will help their members export more. Publishing this list would allow technology companies to set up services to advertise UK exporters and their goods. The US, China and a number of Latin American countries have released similar information and websites use this information to advertise companies and the goods they export.”
“Release of the data will provide greater visibility of UK exporters to potential customers in the global market place; assist developers to create exporter registers and online shop fronts to advertise and showcase UK exporters and their products; enable those who are part of the export supply chain, such as logistics or transportation companies, to identify potential customers more easily; and help importers to locate alternative UK suppliers. Discussions with departments and external stakeholders indicate that publishing the data will help key Government policies on boosting exports, particularly for small and medium-sized enterprises. I would like to mention specifically that UK Trade and Investment and UK Export Finance say it will help them target their advice and financial assistance more effectively.”
“The legislation promotes both the overall growth agenda and efforts to support UK exporters and small businesses. It is also in line with the Government’s open data strategy. That seeks to place as much relevant data into the public domain as is reasonable and to reuse collected data for more than one purpose, where it is efficient to do so. The idea is to bring accurate, reliable information about exporters and their products into a single, easily accessible place.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Disclosure of Exporter Information Regulations 2015. It is traditional at the start of these proceedings to say what an unbelievable pleasure it is to see the Chairman in the Chair. On this occasion, that is absolutely true. We have worked opposite each other on Committee before, Mr Wilson, but this is the first time since your elevation that I have seen you in the Chair. It is a particular pleasure to serve under you this morning. The regulations, which were laid before both Houses of Parliament on 17 November 2015, seek to allow Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to disclose a limited set of information relating to individual UK exporters and the goods they export outside the European Union. The following information will, I hope, help Members place the regulations in context.”
“Lady asked about the safeguards and opt-outs, and about whether concerns that are less serious, as she put it, but still significant and legitimate will be taken into account. I set out the current safeguards to protect commercial and strategic confidentiality and the measures proposed by HMRC to ensure confidentiality of businesses in the future with the new exporter dataset, which will be fully in line with those currently in place for importers’ details. I should clarify that it is about non-EU trade. The arrangements for importers have been in place for many years. They have a high level of usage and industry is highly confident in them. No significant issues about disclosure have arisen.”
“I thank the hon. Lady who speaks for the Opposition for her, as ever, constructive and insightful contribution to the debate. She asked a number of questions and raised several issues for clarification, some of which we have covered and others of which I will try to respond to now. The measure is all about the Government’s commitment to UK growth and giving exporters and their customers the right information at the right time to allow them to prosper and increase their business. It adds to the range of tools at their fingertips. Exactly how it will be used remains to be seen. Companies and intermediaries tend to be creative, and people operating online tend to be even more creative, so they will probably come up with ways of leveraging data that were not anticipated when the dataset was created. The hon.”
“I do not have the names of the individual respondents or the details of their business, but clearly businesses in sensitive sectors are more likely, first, to be concerned and, secondly, to respond to a consultation on the issues. We think that we have created a sufficient framework of opt-out and of mitigating measures to protect confidentiality and that we have got the balance right. Clearly, there is a value to the dataset and to promoting trade, but there are also the legitimate concerns and reasonable requirements of certain businesses to keep their details confidential. We have to find the balance, and we think that this one is reasonable.”
“Member for Salford and Eccles also asked whether the format of the data would be the same as for the importer scheme. That is the default assumption, but as time goes on the way in which things are presented on Government-owned websites may evolve. That is quite natural. It is a set of data, so how the user interface works in any third-party application is a matter for those third parties. In conclusion, this is a significant contribution to the visibility of British exporters and to their ability to grow and build their business. The draft regulations will be a significant part of efforts to support exporters and small businesses and I commend them to the Committee. Question put and agreed to .”
“Clearly it makes the dataset less than 100%, but those who have opted out have opted out and said that they do not want their data to be made available for all those business opportunities that might be forthcoming. Again, the matter is one of balance, and we believe that the balance we are striking is about right. The hon. Members for Salford and Eccles and for Middlesbrough asked about the number of responses to the consultation, whether they were sufficient and what communications were undertaken. HMRC circulated the details of the consultation widely among its standing group of trade consultees, known as the joint customs consultative committee. Trade sectors represented on the committee distributed details to their members, some of whom took part in the consultation. The hon.”
“Armaments would be a sensitive category of goods, but they would not be the only sensitive category. For example, high-value jewellery might also count as a sensitive trade. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles asked the question directly and it is a sensible one. HMRC would consider the circumstances. It might not be possible for the Government to have the full list in advance of what someone else considers to be sensitive, so it is right that HMRC may consider requests as they are made. The flipside of that is the other question asked by the hon. Lady, which was about whether the data are devalued if we have businesses opting out.”
“For completeness, I should mention that at the autumn statement the Government announced that they would review the scheme. The review will begin with a call for evidence from charities and other interested parties, which will be published before Christmas. The increase in the scheme limit will provide additional support for charities that receive small, often spontaneous donations. It is right that the Government enhance those donations through the gift aid small donations scheme, because they are vital to charities and embedded in our country’s culture of philanthropy. I look forward to dealing with any questions that members of the Committee may have.”
“At the 2015 Budget, the Government announced an increase in the annual limit on donations on which a charity can claim through the gift aid small donations scheme, from £5,000 to £8,000. The purpose of today’s debate is to agree that change so that it can come into effect from April 2016. The change will enable charities to claim up to £2,000 of Government support on up to £8,000 of donations, compared with the maximum £1,250 that can be claimed under the current £5,000 donations limit. The Government expect the increase in the limit particularly to benefit the 7,200 charities that currently claim on the full £5,000. For other charities, I hope that the prospect of greater financial support from Government will provide an increased incentive to sign up to the scheme.”
“In 2013, the Government therefore introduced the gift aid small donations scheme, which was designed to help charities receive a gift aid-style top-up payment—a 25% top-up from Government—on small cash donations. The scheme is not, and is not intended to be, a substitute for gift aid. If a donor makes a larger donation or the donor can reasonably complete a gift aid declaration form, gift aid should be claimed. In the first year, 2013-14, 8,100 charities claimed a total of £6 million through the scheme. Take-up increased last year; in 2014-15, 19,300 charities claimed a total of £21 million. Our intention is to continue to raise awareness of the scheme and to ensure that it can support a greater number of charities and of donations.”
“The order provides a further opportunity to enhance Government support for charities, and the communities that they serve, by allowing charities to claim an additional top-up from Government on the contributions that they receive from their donors. Gift aid is a well established and significant revenue stream for charities. Since 1990-91, more than £13 billion of gift aid relief has been paid to charities. However, it is not always possible or practical for all charitable donations to be accompanied by a gift aid declaration—for example, when charities collect donations in high street collecting tins or when churches receive donations via the collection plate.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Small Charitable Donations Act (Amendment) Order 2015. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I welcome the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles to her place. This is the first chance that we have had to interact in a Committee, although I hope today’s will be of modest duration. The Government recognise the valuable contribution that the UK’s 165,000 charities make to many aspects of our society. That is why we continue to help charities achieve their charitable objectives and incentivise their donors, including through tax reliefs that were worth more than £4.5 billion in 2014-15. It is also why the Government have announced an increase in the limit for the gift aid small donations scheme from £5,000 to £8,000 per charity per year.”
“As I said, the increase in the small donations scheme limit represents an additional way in which the Government are supporting the charity sector. It will enable a significant number of charities, especially the 7,200 that already claim their full top-up under the existing £5,000 limit, to access greater financial support from the Government. I commend the order to the Committee. Question put and agreed to.”
“I was asked about the timing of the review, and the call for evidence should come out before Christmas. It remains to be seen how many organisations and individuals respond to that call, but we hope to have very good material and a good opportunity for feedback, critique and suggestions on how to make the scheme even more successful. It was mentioned that these days, it is possible to make a digital payment almost as quickly as a physical one—through contactless payment, for example—yet the small donations scheme applies only to cash. The review will cover all aspects of the scheme, including questions about digital payments. The Government are heartened to hear the support from members of the Committee today.”
“Through the HMRC outreach team, which was established in 2014, the Government have delivered face-to-face presentations to more than 650 charities to spread awareness, increase take-up and help charities receive support through the scheme and available tax reliefs. Furthermore, through the introduction of Charities Online in 2013, we have made it faster and simpler for charities to claim reliefs. Some 95% of charities submit claims online rather than through paper applications, and the majority of claims are processed within five working days, which is down from about 15 working days. There have been number of suggestions, questions and comments on various aspects of the scheme, and they are all germane, but they are all also subject matter for the review of the scheme.”
“The scheme is not about replacing gift aid. Unlike regular gift aid it is taxpayer support, not a tax relief. The £8,000 figure is appropriate and consistent with the scheme having reasonable safeguards in it and being as unsusceptible as possible to state aid action. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles asked the reasonable question of what the Government are doing to increase awareness. She also asked whether more charities should know about the scheme. There is always a certain degree of ramp-up in any new programme, and the Government have been trying to do more. We want to raise awareness of the scheme and have more charities and donors taking part in it.”
“Our general objective is for the scheme to be as simple, straightforward and low-cost for charities as possible, consistent with having a scheme in which everybody can have confidence and in which reasonable steps are taken to act against any potential misuse. That is why various safeguards are in place. For instance, a charity has to have been in the gift aid scheme for at least two of the previous four years, and given that the small donations scheme is a cash scheme, what a charity claims cannot be more than 10 times what goes through its regular gift aid programme. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South asked the reasonable question of why the figure is £8,000, not £7,500 or £8,500. There is of course no precise answer to that question, but there has to be a number, and it is based on a judgment of what is consistent.”
“The Government are heartened by the support shown throughout the Committee for the gift aid small donations scheme. Several questions have been asked about the scheme’s general performance and the statistics behind it. Last year, 19,300 charities claimed a total of £21 million. We would like that to increase, and that is the point of the changes that we are introducing and the review that I mentioned. My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil asked where that number sits in the overall universe of charities, and I can tell him that here are a total of 165,000 charities. A question was asked about the median claim. I do not have that number to hand, but I will be happy to follow up on it in correspondence.”
“The long-term economic plan is securing the UK’s recovery. We were the fastest growing G7 country in 2014 and 2013 and we are joint fastest this year. The deficit has more than halved and the national debt as a share of GDP is set to fall this year. However, the job is not yet done, and the Government will continue working through the plan to ensure Britain’s long-term economic security.”
“I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned consistently on these issues since 2010. The justice reforms are an exemplary element of the long-term economic plan, combining savings with social reform and delivering economic dividends from improved employability to sites for 3,000 new homes. It is because of the strength of the economy, thanks to the long-term plan, that we can invest £1 billion to build nine modern prisons and close the old ones.”
“The hon. Lady rightly identifies the importance of continuing in further education and the fact that in the modern economy more and more people will have multiple careers through their lives, which means that the availability of retraining is very important. That is why I welcome the protection of this budget and the availability of loans, for example, for part-time students.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, that is at the heart of the enterprise zones in the north, the city deals and the whole concept of the northern powerhouse—making sure that the cities of the north add up to something that is more than the sum of their parts—and Transport for the North, which he mentioned, is a vital part of that.”
“We of course recognise the challenges that come with energy costs, but it is true that the green sector supports a number of jobs in this country. It is very important that we seek to lead on research and development, and the autumn statement was another important step towards that.”
“With an employment level of 31.2 million, there are more people in work than ever before. Over the past year, employment growth has been driven by full-time employees and by high and medium-skill occupations, showing that we are now moving into the next phase of our recovery, with high-quality employment helping to boost productivity and raise living standards across the country.”
“I commend my hon. Friend for his personal endeavours, including the annual Selby district jobs fair. He mentioned energy-intensive industries. We of course recognise the particular challenges that some businesses in those sectors face. We cannot change world price levels, but we will bring forward compensation and legislate to exempt EIIs from renewables policy costs, helping with cash flow and providing greater business certainty. Businesses will of course also benefit from the further cuts to corporation tax and the higher permanent level of the investment allowance.”
“The hon. Lady raises an important point. In fact, full-time workers account for almost three quarters of the employment growth since 2010. The crucial reform in the welfare and social security system is of course universal credit, which specifically seeks to get over the spikes found in the hours scale so that it always pays to move from being out of work into work and, crucially, to move up the hours scale.”
“Our investments, including £800 million in the summer Budget, helping HMRC to recover an additional £7.2 billion, have been vital to achieving that success. As well as that, it is clearly important that the structure and organisation of HMRC are fully fit for the 21st century, and that is what these changes are all about.”
“I am not quite sure how to follow the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Roger Mullin). Protecting the country’s tax revenues is of course a vital part of our long-term economic plan. It is particularly important given the contributions that we expect the tax system to make to delivering an overall surplus in 2019-20. As an integral part of that, we strengthened HM Revenue and Customs’ ability to carry out its job as effectively and as efficiently as possible. In 2009-10, the tax gap stood at 7.3%. By 2013-14, it had fallen to 6.4%, and that represents an additional £14.5 billion in cumulative tax collected. Over the past Parliament, HMRC has secured around £100 billion in additional compliance yield, including more than £38 billion from big businesses and £1.2 billion from the UK’s richest 6,000 people.”
“I will not just at the moment, if that is all right with my hon. Friend. The primary objective is for HMRC to bring its workforce closer together in regional centres so that they can collaborate better, providing more opportunities for economies of scale and of scope and for individuals’ career progression. That will allow them to deliver higher quality public services at a lower cost to the taxpayer. It is simply not efficient to have HMRC’s 58,000 employees spread throughout 170 offices across the UK.”
“As the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said, this is about moving into more efficient and more effective regional centres in which, in those places, jobs will be created. The great majority of people are within travel time of those centres and will be able to move.”
“I will not for the moment. I want to see how things go and to try to cover as many as possible of the points that have been raised during the debate. The consolidation has been ongoing since the formation of HMRC in 2005, when it had more than 570 offices. Most recently, in 2014, it announced the closure of 135 older-style walk-in centres, to which vulnerable customers had to make the effort to travel. HMRC replaced them with a dedicated “needs extra support” service, whereby officials go to meet the customers in their own home or at a convenient location. I have met and spoken to HMRC staff who have made the change from the old service model to the new one, and have heard about how much more effective it is in supporting those who need most help.”
“If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not give way. Keeping HMRC’s valued employees fully engaged has been a central part of the transformation programme. The proposals were initially announced internally 18 months ago. Since then, HMRC has held about 2,000 events across the country, talking to and consulting colleagues on the changes.”
“I assure my hon. Friend that that is not the way in which the process to identify the locations has been conducted. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary mentioned earlier the combination of site and location-specific criteria. Critically, the process has also involved mapping out where HMRC staff live, in order to calculate reasonable travel distances and the locations to which those individuals can reasonably travel. In the case of HMRC staff employed in Leeds and Bradford, 130 live a more reasonable distance from Leeds than they do from Bradford.”
“There are a great number of job opportunities in Liverpool, near the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. This will be a different type of operation, with more disciplines co-located in the same building, so there will be more opportunities for collaborative and efficient working and for career progression and development. Everyone working for HMRC will have the opportunity to discuss their personal circumstances with their manager ahead of any office closures or moves, including any issues that need to be taken into account when making decisions.”
“It is precisely because of the expiration date of those leases, which account for about two thirds of the estate, at the end of the private finance initiative contract in 2021 that this is a one-off opportunity to make this change to the estate footprint. If the opportunity is missed, there will not be another one like it for some 15 years. I have been asked a number of times, quite rightly, about the number of compulsory redundancies. Of 58,000 staff in total, 4,000 are expected not to be in reasonable travel time of a regional centre, but that is not the same as saying that there will be 4,000 compulsory redundancies. Every year, many people retire or move away from organisations, including HMRC.”
“Not at the moment. As I have said, HMRC has mapped the geographical location of all of its employees, to work out which locations work best for most people. We envisage that the new office structure will give more people more opportunities, which is good for them as well as for the organisations as a whole. I have not given way as much as I might have done, because I wanted to respond to as many as possible of the points that have been raised during the debate. The questions were many and the minutes available are few, but I shall do my best. If I omit anything crucial that has been raised, I will write to the hon. Member concerned. The official Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris), rightly raised the question of the Mapeley leases.”
“Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas), complained about the manner in which the announcement came out. I make no apology for the fact that the staff were told first. On the day of the announcement, the entire HMRC senior team was out in the field at those office locations to carry out face-to-face discussions with staff. The direction of travel had been shared with staff 18 months earlier, and in the intervening time some 2,000 events had been held up and down the country to discuss the changes. In terms of contact with MPs, I can confirm that HMRC will be happy to discuss the situation with them.”
“I will in a moment come to the point that the hon. Gentleman is shouting out from his seat. The average age of employees in the organisation is late 40s or early 50s, and this is a 10-year plan, so compulsory redundancy should be a last resort. What counts as reasonable travel time will depend on the circumstances of the individual and will include consideration of factors such as caring responsibilities, which is one reason for providing the opportunity of one-to-one discussions, quite rightly, with all employees. Typically, reasonable travel time is taken to mean around an hour, but that does not mean that that is correct for everybody in every circumstance in every location. A number of hon. Members, including the hon. Members for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) and for Bootle (Peter Dowd), my hon.”
“The Scotland-specific proposals will see the opening of two regional centres, in Glasgow and Edinburgh. In addition, a specialist crime centre will be maintained in Gartcosh. Although discussions with individual employees are ongoing, HMRC’s presence in Scotland will remain consistent, at 12% of its total workforce as against only 8% of the UK’s population. To respond to the hon. Member for Dundee West (Chris Law), the 600 jobs at Sidlaw House will move to the Department for Work and Pensions, while we will do everything to find alternative options working one-to-one with those at Caledonian House who are outside reasonable travel times for the new regional centre.”
“This programme stretches over a number of years, and it is right that as an organisation goes into a commercial negotiation over premises, it does not identify the exact location it has in mind because, as was mentioned in the debate, that would put up the price that was asked. I want to reassure the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) that HMRC is very conscious of the importance of the Welsh language service and intends there to be no denigration of service to Welsh speakers as a result of these changes. I want also to reassure colleagues from Northern Ireland that we expect the number of staff in Northern Ireland to go up at the end of this period, rather than down. HMRC absolutely recognises the unique issues in the Province.”
“If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not, because of the time. I want to respond to the specific points that hon. Members have rightly raised about their constituencies. On Shipley and Bradford, my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has agreed to meet Bradford MPs, as they know. The chief executives of HMRC and of Bradford’s local authority are also due to meet to discuss the issue. We have heard about Chatham and Chelmsford. I should explain that they are both two-stage programmes with a transitional arrangement in place for three or four years at Maidstone and Southend respectively. The hon. Member for Bootle raised the question of not knowing exactly where in Liverpool the regional centre would be.”
“We have also set out a path for sustainable but solid deficit elimination so that we can live within our means and start paying down the debt.”
“Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mims Davies) talked about the apprenticeship revolution. Since 2010, the private sector has created almost 2.5 million jobs. We have record levels of employment—indeed, more employment growth in the UK since 2010 than in the rest of the EU put together—and more women in work than before. Real wages have risen by almost 3% on the year, and we are leaving more cash where it belongs—in the pockets of hard-working people. Through our increases in the personal allowance, we are making the typical basic rate taxpayer £905 a year better off. We extended childcare support, and are doing so again, with tax-free childcare extensions under universal credit and free entitlement for pre-schoolers worth £5,000 per child per year.”