Damian Hinds
MP for East Hampshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“There are moments in debates like the one we have had today that are difficult to sit through and listen to, but it is the most immense privilege to be a Member of Parliament and to hear some of these testimonies.”
“Today is once again a day of heavy responsibility for all of us to decide on what we in this House call “conscience issues”. Many of the people who we represent hold strong and immutable views, and we hear from them. However, we represent many others who hold much more nuanced views and we are less likely to hear from them.”
“Members who support the Bill should not have their motives questioned, Members who oppose the Bill should not have their motives questioned, and Members who have reached a different conclusion from one they reached at an earlier stage should not have their judgment questioned either.”
“We have heard from royal colleges and other professional bodies, many of whom have a neutral stance on the principle but raise significant questions about particular aspects. We know from Ministers that there would need to be some reprioritisation of NHS resources, but we do not know the extent.”
“If there is the prospect of the Parliament Acts being used, that would increase the importance and the salience of the text as it is now. Today, it is reasonable and entirely in order for hon. Members to consider information that is available now that was not available in those previous parliamentary deliberation.”
“The Government have said, rightly, that the time taken to implement other schemes is not directly comparable, because none are as in this Bill. This is a free vote on a matter of conscience—there is no party line on either side of the Chamber. No one, I suggest, finds this issue easy.”
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“Today’s bills will be paid at some point. We believe that the challenges for this generation should be dealt with by this generation, and we believe we need to get our finances under control and eliminate the deficit, and not just pass on the problem to our children and grandchildren.”
“I do not deny that pay restraint in the public sector is difficult, but that 1% restraint has also protected 200,000 jobs in the public sector, which is an important aim. In addition, since 2007-08, pay in the public sector has risen faster than in the private.”
“I keep saying I must make some progress. For the moment, I think I must mean it. These reforms of tax credits go hand in hand with the new settlement for working Britain that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out in the last Budget. At the same time, we are introducing radical measures to put more cash where it belongs—in the pockets of hard-working people. Our increases to the tax-free personal allowance mean that a typical basic rate taxpayer—”
“I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. Our increases to the tax-free personal allowance mean that a typical basic rate taxpayer has seen their income tax bill cut by £825 since 2010. We are adding a further £80 next year and a further £40 the year after.”
“We are making these necessary changes for the future of all sorts of families, but more than anybody for the sake of our children. The hon. Lady will know that the best way to address poverty is through work, and that is what we have been doing. She will also know the statistics—that where a child is in poverty and a parent moves into work, in 75% of cases they move out of poverty as a result, and that where a parent moves from part-time to full-time work, 75% of children also move out of poverty. From next April, we will have the national living wage, which by 2020, when it will be worth more than £9 an hour, will mean over £5,000 more in gross full-time pay for someone on the minimum wage today.”
“As always, my hon. Friend is correct, and she brings me on to my next point. Already, more than 200 firms, including some of our biggest employers, have announced they intend to pay staff at or above the national living wage before it comes into effect, which has helped to push private sector wage growth to 4.4%, according to latest figures, at a time of low or no inflation. Then there are the wider things we have done on living costs. We have frozen council tax and fuel duty. On childcare, we have already introduced 15 hours for the 40% most disadvantaged two-year-olds, which is just through its first full year of operation and still ramping up. From 2017, there will be 30 hours for working families with three and four-year-olds, and just the additional 15 hours will be worth £2,500 per child per year.”
“The statutory instrument does not affect the level of child tax credits. The hon. Gentleman, being a keen student of these matters, will know about the taper for tax credit awards and the stacking effect of the different elements, but the child tax credit, as the Prime Minister said, is not being changed.”
“I am conscious of time and know that many people want to speak. Perhaps most important is the wider effect of the national living wage. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that as the national living wage imposes upward pressure further up the scale, 6 million people will get a pay rise. That effect starts now, but it will continue rising right up to the end of the decade. We are not just talking about a lower welfare, lower tax, higher wage economy; we are seeing it happen.”
“The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is timely. Had he been listening—that might sound as I did not mean it to sound—he would have heard me talk about the wider effects of the national living wage. It affects not just people on the national minimum wage, but a much wider distribution. Most economists estimate that it would extend about 25% up the income scale.”
“It does answer the question. The hon. Gentleman was suggesting that this proportion would not benefit from a national living wage, which is incorrect. A lot of people who are not on today’s minimum wage will also benefit to a sum of about— [Interruption.] I am asked how many—the estimate is that about 6 million people will benefit directly or indirectly.”
“The harsh reality that we face is that we have a budget deficit equivalent to £3,300 for every household in the country. We need to take firm action on that now. It is right, as I said earlier, that the burden is spread right throughout society, but it is also right to shift the burden towards the upper end, which is what has happened with the tax burden.”
“There are a number of mitigating elements involved in the package. We have been talking about the national living wage, and there are major— [Interruption.] These things are all new. There are major extensions to childcare provision. We have reductions in social rents, and increases in the income tax personal allowance.”
“Before I conclude—I am very conscious of the time—I want to address a couple of points about poverty. The best route out of poverty is employment. We have created the conditions for the private sector to create record numbers of jobs—over 2 million since 2010. The best way to target in-work poverty is, first, by helping people move up the hours scale and, secondly, by increasing wages. We are seeing wages rise strongly, and we are seeing living standards rising by 3.1%, year on year.”
“We will continue down the path of economic security, stability and opportunity for working Britain.”
“We do all this while delivering a new settlement for working Britain—one where decent wages are not subsidised by the public purse, but met by employers; one that says to employers, “You can have very competitive tax, but you must pay your people properly”; one that allows hard-working people to keep more of the money they earn; and one that offers a way out of reliance on benefits and top-ups through work that pays. Those have not been easy decisions to make, but we face a £3,300 per household deficit, and if we reduce the level of state support people are inevitably affected. But tough decisions become necessary decisions when we are working towards the most important and the most progressive goal of all—economic security for working Britain in an uncertain world. Our new settlement for working Britain is an integral part of that.”
“I am not giving way again, as many people want to speak and I am coming towards the end of my remarks. The number of people in in-work poverty is 200,000 lower than it was at its peak in 2008-09. Let me remind Members of the surest way to create poverty and to dash the aspirations of working families up and down the country. It is to lose control of the public finances. We are making sure that that never happens again. We are driving down the deficit; we have set out the path towards surplus; and through our Charter for Budget Responsibility, we are making sure that we insulate ourselves against any future shocks the world economy might throw at us.”
“The Government want to move from a low-wage, high-tax, low-welfare—I mean, high-welfare—society to a high-tax— [Laughter.] This was always going to happen one day; I apologise profusely. We want to move to a high-wage, lower tax, lower welfare society, and this includes some changes to tax credits to help put benefit spending on a more sustainable path. The impact of those changes on different groups with protected characteristics, including gender, has been considered by Treasury Ministers as part of the overall summer Budget package.”
“We are in the process of delivering on our deficit reduction imperative, which the House had an opportunity to debate last night. The reductions in tax credits are an important part of that, but they form part of a package, along with measures such as the national living wage, childcare and changes in the personal allowances for income tax. As a result of the income tax change, 660,000 individuals will be lifted out of income tax, 60% of whom will be women. We believe that about two thirds of the beneficiaries of the national living wage will also be women.”
“The amendment seeks to delay the Government’s proposed changes to the family element of child tax credit until April 2022. The Government were elected on a mandate to reduce the deficit and restore order to our public finances. As part of the plan to get us into surplus and to continue the progress made in the previous Parliament, the Government have committed to making a further £12 billion of welfare savings. To set the scene, the most recent statistics show that, in 2011, the level of UK expenditure on family benefits was the second highest out of the 34 countries in the OECD and almost double the average. Child tax credits are there, of course, to provide support to low-income families to help them with the costs of raising children.”
“The previous Labour Government let public spending on tax credits rocket out of control so that, in 2010, nine out of 10 families with children were eligible for tax credits. That was not targeted support for low-income families.”
“The OECD has done a survey based on percentage of spend to GDP. The hon. Lady has not asked this question but let me clarify further: it takes together family benefits, cash benefits, tax breaks and childcare. Of course, the mix is different in different countries. Nordic countries tend to spend more on direct childcare and Anglophone countries tend to spend less on that but put more into tax breaks. Our country has tended to spend a little bit more on cash benefits and on childcare. As I said, child tax credits are there to provide support to low-income families to help them with the cost of raising children, but the system has grown unsustainably—a family with three children that earns up to almost £40,000 could still be eligible for some support.”
“The hon. Lady tempts me into a wider debate about the deficit, which would be interesting to get into, particularly with some of the news this morning about her own party’s interesting deliberations on how the deficit should be dealt with. I do not think that anybody denies that there was an international financial crisis in 2007-08, but it is also true—I doubt that many people will deny it, though she may be one who does—that it came on top of a structural budget deficit that was out of control because we had spent too much and borrowed too much, even in the good years.”
“I fell into the temptation of the wider debate, but I will now get away from it. However, the existence of the structural deficit and the continuing problems that we find ourselves in post 2007-08 are why we need to get our public finances back into order. Nobody would deny the existence of automatic stabilisers, as the hon. Lady mentioned, but we need a welfare system, a benefits system and general public finances that are sustainable and fair to all people—those who pay in and those who are beneficiaries. Despite reforms in the previous Parliament reducing the number of families eligible for tax credits to six out of 10, the current level of spending on tax credits is unsustainable.”
“That is correct, but we do have a shared future, and it is the responsibility of a Government, on behalf of all their citizens, particularly the most disadvantaged and vulnerable, to make sure that we have sound finances, that we can continue to afford to pay for our public services, that we can continue to afford to invest in our national health service and that we can give people the support that they need.”
“Thank you, Mr Streeter. Let me be clear, lest there be any doubt, that this is not about limiting the number of children that people have. It is about financial support in the form of child tax credit. Child benefit, for example, will continue to go up in line with the number of children. The hon. Gentleman says, and he is right, that individual families are not responsible for the financial mess that our country found itself in as a result of the unholy combination of the financial crisis and the previous Labour Government.”
“I think I will have to move on a little. Last year the Government spent almost £30 billion on tax credits—more than three and a half times what we spent on military personnel. That level of spending on tax credits is unfair on those who foot the bill, who are, of course, other taxpayers. That is why the Government took steps in the summer Budget to put tax credit spending on a more— [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley want to intervene?”
“I do not know whether the hon. Lady deliberately did not hear me say that. I did say that people who pay the tax credit uplift are other taxpayers. That is true. That is not pitching one person against another, it is just a statement of the reality, a statement of how the system works. That is why the Government took steps— [Interruption.] Does the hon. Lady want to intervene again? She keeps on speaking.”
“I do not recall referring to the hon. Lady’s specific case or the case of anybody else on the Opposition Benches. Nor did I say that anybody should feel bad for supporting others, but there is a case for balance. It is just a statement of fact that, in any tax and benefits system, benefits paid to one group or person have to be paid for by others, and we have to make sure that that system is fair. As the hon. Lady will recall, we had a great reforming Budget with a set of measures to move us from a low-wage, high-tax, high-welfare society to a lower-tax, higher-wage, less welfare-reliant society, including measures such as the national living wage, with which we seek permanently to reform the structure of the economy and the way the system works.”
“In the summer Budget, the Government took steps to put tax credit spending on a more sustainable path, including by limiting the individual element of child tax credit to two children and by removing the family element of child tax credit for those who are not responsible for a child or qualifying young person before 6 April 2017. The average family size in this country has decreased over recent decades. The average number of dependent children in families in the UK in 2012 was 1.7.”
“I say that these are major structural changes. I think you would admonish me, Mr Streeter, if I went too far down this road, because we had this debate on the Floor of the House and there will be other opportunities to discuss the matter. We are talking about helping people through the national living wage and increases in the income tax personal allowance, but also through measures such as childcare support and, most important of all, the general strength of the economy. We see real wages rising very strongly at the moment, and we have very low inflation and very strong economic growth. Those are the things that most help families with their budgets and living standards.”
“Member for Livingston quite rightly raised some of the difficult issues. We have already been clear about multiple births, and there will be more detail forthcoming on that. We will also have a chance discuss that in debates on further amendments. The Government have been absolutely clear that if parents have twins or triplets and previously there were fewer than two children in the household, that will be treated as a single birth. In the most difficult circumstance—a child conceived as a result of rape—it is right that the Government take a careful and sensitive approach to working out how best to deal with those circumstances and support women through that situation in relation to the tax credit system. There will be more detail in due course.”
“I will not, if the hon. Lady will forgive me. The Government believe that it is fair and proportionate to limit support through tax credits and universal credit to two children per family. The measures in clause 11 will ensure that there is greater fairness between those receiving benefits and those paying for them, and will ensure that, in the future, families in receipt of benefits face the same sorts of financial decisions when they consider having children as those supporting themselves solely through work. The Government decided to implement the measures from April 2017 to give families time to make decisions about having more children. That provides sufficient time for those considering whether to have more children to make plans, while at the same time putting tax credits on a more sustainable footing. The hon.”
“It is not at all uncommon for a Government to say that particular aspects of the implementation of a policy are delicate and sensitive and require careful thought with external stakeholders who are experts in the field. That is what will happen in this case. I do not feel the need to defend that. It is the right thing to do because there are people who have expertise, and it is absolutely right that they should have the opportunity to be consulted.”
“I will not, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. The Government will continue to support larger families through child benefit, which is paid for all qualifying children in a household. There are 15 hours of childcare available to the 40% least advantaged families. Families will continue to receive 15 hours a week of free childcare for all three and four-year-olds, and the Government have announced that from September 2017 that will be extended to 30 hours for parents who are in work. I therefore urge the hon. Member for Livingston to withdraw the amendment.”
“That is why it is important, indeed imperative, to get welfare spending under control, to help us get into surplus so that we can continue to increase our investment in our NHS, schools and pensions. As I have already mentioned, tax credit expenditure more than trebled in real terms between 1999 and 2010 and cost the taxpayer just under £30 billion last year.”
“The amendments serve a similar purpose: to increase, or indeed remove, the limit on the number of children or qualifying young people in respect of which a person is entitled to the individual element of child tax credit or the child element of universal credit, and to prevent limits being placed on the number of children for the purposes of calculating housing benefit or the housing costs element of universal credit. I thank hon. Members for tabling the amendments. Despite the progress we have made towards reducing the deficit since 2010, we still ran a budget deficit of 4.9% last year and are expected to have the second highest deficit in the G7 in 2015.”
“Today’s debate is not about inheritance tax. If the hon. Lady is making a point about fairness in the tax system, that would be a fair question to ask. In fact, if we look at the overall package of what the Government have done in tax and spending since 2010, we see that the distribution of spending between different income groups and society has stayed pretty much the same.”
“Yes, indeed it has, and the incidence of taxation has shifted up the income scale so that the top fifth is now paying proportionately more than they were, and the top 1% who were paying 25% of income tax in 2010— [ Interruption.] The Opposition can shake their heads all they like and say it is not proportionate, but it is proportionate. That is exactly the point. The top 1% who were already paying 25% income tax in 2010 are paying—”
“If that policy were to protect six children in each household in terms of the payments or remove the limit completely, as suggested by SNP Members, there would be negligible savings from the measure and it would undermine our commitment to deficit reduction. It would also continue the unfairness that an out of work family with six children could receive over £17,000 per year in child tax credit in addition to other benefits if they are not subject to the benefit cap, while many working families would not see their budgets rise by anything like that when they have more children.”
“The fault was all mine, Mr Streeter. I do not blame the hon. Lady and I apologise for my part in it. The last thing I was going to say was 27.5%. The level of spending we have reached on tax credits—£30 billion—is unsustainable and carries a risk to our public services. That is why the Government have taken steps to ensure that the system is fair to those who pay for it as well as those who benefit from it. That is why the Government are limiting support to two children in child tax credit and universal credit from April 2017. Amendments 45 to 48 and 50 to 54 would increase or remove the limit on the number of children or qualifying young people in respect of whom a person is entitled to the individual element of child tax credit or the child element of universal credit.”
“I am going to press on for the moment. The average number of children in families in the UK in 2012 was 1.7. The Government therefore think it is fair and proportionate to limit support through tax credits and universal credit to the payments for two children. To give families time to prepare, the change will not come into effect until April 2017. In child tax credit, the change will affect families who have a third or subsequent child born on or after 6 April 2017 only. In universal credit, the change applies to any third or subsequent children born, or joining the household, on or after 6 April 2017 and to families making a completely new claim to universal credit after that date.”
“I believe we will have an opportunity at a subsequent stage to debate that point in detail in relation to a subsequent amendment, but I do not want to keep the hon. Lady waiting. To be clear in simple terms, the tax credit system is for new births after April 2017; universal credit is for new births and for new claims. Of course, universal credit is replacing the tax credit system. When we talk about new claims, that is with a gap of six months. It may apply to someone who has never been in that system before or in the predecessor tax credit system, or who has been out of both systems for a period of six months.”
“I do not want to pre-empt the more interesting discussion we may have later, but on the grounds that the intervention is relevant, as always, I give way.”
“Obviously, without those changes, the tax credit change would have the unintended effect of awarding claimants with more than two children a higher amount of housing benefit, which would reduce the savings from the tax credit change. Let me be absolutely clear, because the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury raised some very reasonable questions, which we need to address directly. As she knows, housing benefit is made up of a number of elements. That includes taking into account the number of children in calculating the family’s income. The family premium she mentioned is part of that calculation. The changes will affect the calculation of family income, but not the number of rooms allocated, which is a separate issue.”
“I fear that that is another invitation to err from the path of the rightful debate. On new clause 5, the intention seems to be to amend section 130A of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 to prevent the Secretary of State from making changes to housing benefit that would restrict the number of children who can be included in the housing benefit assessment. Housing benefit and the housing element in universal credit take into account the number of children for whom the claimant is responsible. There is no maximum number attached to that, and the Bill does not introduce one. The only related changes to housing benefit, which will follow in regulations, are to ensure that a claimant’s housing benefit award is no higher than it would have been if the tax credit changes were not introduced.”
“It is right that families on benefits should in future face the same financial considerations when deciding whether to have more children as families who support themselves solely through work. I therefore urge hon. Members not to press the provisions.”
“In calculating the amount of a renter’s housing element under the universal credit regulations, a determination is, as the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury said, made as to the category of accommodation it is reasonable for the renter to occupy, having regard to the number of people in the household. Claimants in rented accommodation are currently entitled to one bedroom for each qualifying young person for whom they are responsible; one bedroom for two children who are under 10 years old; one bedroom for two children of the same sex; and one bedroom for any other child. Additional rooms are available in certain other circumstances. The Bill does not make changes to matters such as the number of rooms the claimant’s family is allowed as part of the local housing allowance or removal of the spare room subsidy.”
“The change in the regulations will ensure that, for families with more than two children, housing benefit does not rise to offset the notional loss in tax credit or universal credit, because the amount saved in tax credit would then reappear in housing benefit. Let me move on to new clause 6, which is related. The housing cost element in universal credit is an additional amount paid to a claimant to cover the costs of the accommodation they occupy as their home. The new clause seeks to amend section 11 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 by making it clear that the Secretary of State will have no power to make regulations limiting the amount of the housing costs element based on the number of children living in the home.”
“In future, a different system will be in operation. It limits the cash support through the tax credit system to two children. It will continue to include child benefit, and it will also include enhanced child care. For example, we will be moving to 30 hours of free childcare for all three and four-year-olds and there will be further improvements in universal credit.”
“I think the hon. Lady’s point was about her child. I do not think she meant it as a direct question. [ Interruption. ] I am trying to explain that there will be a limit to the amount of financial support coming through the tax credit system according to the number of children, but there will be other elements still in place, and enhanced elements in relation to childcare. There will also be a further increase in the income tax personal allowance and a major structural reform in the labour market so that the tax credit system does not top up low wages. People will be paid properly for the job that they do via the national living wage, and we estimate that 65% of people who benefit from the national living wage will be women.”