Justin Madders
MP for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough · Labour · United Kingdom
“Friend the Member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard asked about, will consider the points raised in this debate and whether any of them can be put into future updates to guidance. As was mentioned, good passenger information is central to standards.”
“As the roads Minister, I of course recognise the importance of bus stops and the important effect they have on the streetscape. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard made clear that she is passionate and informed about the importance of bus journeys to everyone.”
“Where responsibility for highways or individual assets sits elsewhere, close and effective working between the relevant authorities is essential. We expect local plans to join up services, infrastructure and passenger information, rather than treating them as separate issues. That will no doubt be music to the ears of my hon.”
“Our guidance encourages authorities to take a strategic approach to stops and interchanges, including keeping an inventory of infrastructure, identifying priorities for investment and setting locally appropriate standards for facilities and maintenance.”
“She is absolutely right that the quality of a bus stop is about more than accessibility, although of course accessibility is vital. Passengers notice whether a stop is easy to find and use, whether it offers shelter or seating where appropriate, whether it is clean, whether the surroundings feel safe and well maintained and, as we have di…”
“That approach reflects a simple principle: local transport authorities know their areas and are best placed to plan improvements across the whole local bus network. That is why the Department’s vision for buses, within an integrated transport system, puts local transport authorities at the centre of delivery.”
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“These are generally functions that relate to the arrangements for state enforcement of labour market legislation, and the overall governance of the fair work agency. These overarching governance functions include: appointing officers under clause 72; delegating functions under clause 74; setting up the advisory board under clause 75; publishing the annual reports and enforcement strategies under clauses 76 and 77; providing for transfer schemes to move staff into the Department under part 1 of schedule 7; and powers to make subordinate legislation. The effect of clause 73 becomes clear when it is read in conjunction with clause 72. First, the enforcement functions that are listed in clause 73(1) can be performed by enforcement officers appointed under clause 72.”
“Clause 73 specifies which functions are considered enforcement functions of the Secretary of State for the purposes of part 5 of the Bill. It defines enforcement functions widely and then carves out certain functions that are not enforcement functions. Clause 73(1) specifies that the enforcement functions of the Secretary of State include the following: any functions granted under part 5 of the Bill; functions in the relevant labour market legislation that they are responsible for enforcing; and any other functions that they perform to support enforcing labour market legislation. Clause 73(2) goes on to set out exceptions. It lists specific functions that are not enforcement functions for the purposes of part 5 of the Bill.”
“I hear what the shadow Minister says. He is possibly over-egging the pudding or taking us on a ride on the ghost train in terms of what clause 74(5) means. It simply means that if the Secretary of State delegates powers to another body, they are still the responsible person for the overall operation. This is not about overruling different bodies; it is about where the final responsibility lies. I hope I have put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest to some extent. Question put and agreed to. Clause 73 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 74 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 75 Advisory Board Question proposed , That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“We know this is a complex area that is constantly changing, but we believe that the model and approach that has proved so successful with the Low Pay Commission should be replicated here. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.”
“That is because it is a social partnership, comprising equal voices of workers, businesses and independent experts, and can reflect the perspectives of all those bodies when making recommendations. We want the FWA to replicate that success. The clause requires the Secretary of State to create an advisory board for the fair work agency. Subsection (2) specifies that the board must consist of at least nine members appointed by the Secretary of State. Subsection (3) provides that board members must hold and vacate their position in accordance with the terms and conditions of their appointment. Subsection (4) provides for the advisory board to have a social partnership model, requiring equal representation of businesses, trade unions and independent experts.”
“I know you have been eagerly awaiting this clause, Mr Mundell. It concerns an important part of the fair work agency, and something that the Liberal Democrat spokesperson touched on earlier. The agency has a big job on its hands to restore trust among workers that they will get the rights that they are entitled to and that Parliament has laid down. It also important that the agency is trusted by businesses, and that they know they will be treated fairly and that if they follow the law, they will not be undercut by those who seek to avoid it. That is an important job for the fair work agency and it is important that we get it right. It must reflect the concerns of businesses and workers. The Low Pay Commission has served the country well since the last Labour Government created it to advise on the national minimum wage.”
“I think he suggested that we did not need an advisory board at all, which suggests that he does not believe it important that the voice of business have input into the work of the fair work agency. He also said that we did not need more reports, which is one of the roles of the advisory board, and yet only a couple of hours ago he voted for a report into the application of the fair work agency. What he was getting at is that if we have to have this, we need to be assured that there is no jiggery-pokery about who will be appointed to it.”
“There is an opportunity for transparency in that sense. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield says, the pro forma definitions in the Bill are not novel interpretations. They are tried and tested definitions—I would like to say “trusted” as well, but it is clear that the hon. Member for Bridgwater does not trust us to operate them in the way they have operated in the past—of how people are appointed to such bodies. As has been noted, they have worked successfully for the Low Pay Commission for a quarter of a century. The shadow Minister was accused of over-egging the pudding, but the hon. Member for Bridgwater broke enough eggs in his criticisms to feed us all for the next month.”
“I also hope that all Members are fully engaged in their day-to-day work of representing their constituents and will not feel it necessary to apply. Indeed, we will play a role here in scrutinising the work of the fair work agency. Given the comments of the hon. Member for Bridgwater, he will not be making an application, in any event. On the point that academics could also be members of a trade union and could therefore fit into more than one category, anyone in a free society is entitled to join a trade union should they wish to do so. We would not want to make it a condition for job applicants to have to state their trade union membership—that is a slightly McCarthyist road to go down—but members of the Low Pay Commission are already required to declare any interests, including membership of trade unions or political parties.”
“It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Christopher. As always, I will start by referring to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Following the reference to illumination, I hope to shed light on the advantages of a fair work agency. We have heard a fair amount of criticism from the Opposition Benches about the suggestion that we set up an advisory board. The shadow Minister asked whether a Member of Parliament could apply to be on it. I do not think that it is entirely clear whether they could. I do not know whether the prohibitions on second jobs for MPs have that scenario in mind, but I imagine that it could fall within the prohibition relating to advising on areas of policy.”
“I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but this is about how we intend to deal with industrial relations and the workplace in future—the tripartite arrangement, where we get everyone in the room, so they can agree or put different points of view. As has been demonstrated successfully by the Low Pay Commission, that results in the right balance, which is good for the economy and good for workers. It results in settlements that everyone can agree with.”
“This is an established practice that has worked well and has been seen to work well, and it has support from many stakeholders. It is entirely in line with what we seek to achieve. Question put and agreed to. Clause 75 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 76 Labour market enforcement strategy Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“That is a perfectly reasonable question. It is dealt with in the clauses, which we are about to debate and which address the requirement for the board to set out an annual report and strategy. That will inform the Secretary of State of the direction of travel of the fair work agency. Again, this is not an unusual arrangement. If we believe, as we do on the Government Benches, that the fair work agency needs an advisory body—I cannot recall any person or organisation who submitted evidence to the Committee suggesting that that was not an appropriate idea—the logical conclusion of what the hon. Member for Bridgwater suggests is that the Bill should name every single person on it. That is not a practical way to proceed. I suggest that a huge mountain has been made out of a small molehill.”
“Clause 77 sets out the requirement for the Secretary of State to prepare and publish an annual report about the enforcement of labour market legislation. Subsection (3) will require the Secretary of State to consult the fair work agency’s advisory board when preparing the annual report, to benefit from its expertise. Subsection (4) will require the annual report to be laid before Parliament, allowing parliamentary scrutiny in the usual manner. Clause 77 will promote accountability by requiring an annual report on the fair work agency’s enforcement actions and will allow Parliament to monitor progress in protecting workers’ rights. It will ensure that employment standards are not just set, but actively maintained across the UK. I commend the clauses to the Committee.”
“Clause 76 will require the Secretary of State to prepare and publish a labour market enforcement strategy every three years, which should give an assessment of levels of non-compliance with labour market legislation, as well as what activity is undertaken to address that. Subsection (4) will require the Secretary of State to consult the fair work agency’s advisory board when preparing or revising the enforcement strategy, to benefit from its expertise. Subsection (5) will require the strategy to be laid before Parliament, allowing parliamentary scrutiny in the usual manner. A labour market enforcement strategy is a critical tool to maintain accountability and focus on enforcing labour market legislation. It can help to tackle workplace exploitation by prioritising enforcement in sectors in which workers are at higher risk.”
“I think there is broad support for these clauses. The shadow Minister requests that I commit to an oral statement, but he will be aware that I am not in control of the business of the House. I hope that we would want to ensure that all Members have the opportunity to ask questions, but he will know that a number of other mechanisms—sorry, I am sounding a bit like the Leader of the House now—are available to Members to ensure that particular matters are debated.”
“Clause 77 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 78 Power to obtain documents or information”
“I thank the shadow Minister for destroying any career prospects that I might have had. I certainly believe that the first publication would be of sufficient magnitude for an oral statement to the House. As a Minister I would certainly want to give such a statement, although whether it happens is outside my gift, as the shadow Minister knows. As we do not know when it will happen, or indeed whether either of us will be in the same role by that point, I can probably say no more. Perhaps I will be doing something else, or nothing at all. Who knows? I certainly think that the first publication of the strategy would warrant an oral statement, but for the reasons that I have outlined, I cannot make a cast-iron promise. Question put and agreed to. Clause 76 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.”
“I beg to move amendment 86, in clause 78, page 83, line 6, leave out “to ascertain” and insert “the purpose of ascertaining”. This amendment makes a minor drafting correction.”
“As drafted, the Bill has identical definitions of enforcement purposes in clauses 78 and 79, with clause 79 relying on the definition in clause 78. However, these are different powers and the wording on enforcement purposes in clause 78 does not neatly match the provisions of clause 79. It is right that the wording of the definition of “enforcement purpose” in clause 79 should better reflect what the clause says. This amendment therefore clarifies the definition to tailor it to powers of entry. This is, again, a technical change, but one that will make sure that this key power is easy to interpret and understand. I commend the amendments to the Committee.”
“Clause 78 will confer a power on the Secretary of State—although in practice it will be delegated to enforcement officers—to require a person to provide documents or information relevant to an investigation. This is a vital power, and a common power for enforcement agencies to have. It is right that its use be clearly defined. Clause 78(3) defines “enforcement purpose” in relation to the power; Government amendment 86 will make a small drafting correction so that the definition is consistently drafted. This is a technical change, but one that will make sure that this key power is easy to interpret and understand. Government amendment 90 similarly clarifies the definition of “enforcement purpose”, in this case for the powers of entry in clause 79.”
“The shadow Minister asks about the requirement for a warrant. The Committee will shortly come on to a clause that deals with that point. I believe that the purposes for which the power is to be used are also set out elsewhere in the Bill. Amendment 86 agreed to. Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”
“That makes no sense in today’s business world where many businesses are operated online and remotely, and documents are stored electronically. It is high time that we brought the legislation into the 21st century. Clause 78 gives enforcement officers the power to require a person to provide documents and information relevant to an investigation. The person will receive a notice from the officer to provide the relevant documents or information that the officer deems necessary for their purpose. This is a common power for enforcement agencies to have, and it synthesizes and updates the powers that existing enforcement bodies already have.”
“Improving the enforcement of workers’ rights is important and depends on access to the right information. Clause 78 introduces a power to obtain documents and information. The power will be conferred on the Secretary of State, but in practice it is a function that Secretary of State will delegate to enforcement officers. Creating the fair work agency involves bringing together different agencies with different information-gathering powers. Multiple overlapping powers would be confusing and slow down enforcement. The powers of some current enforcement bodies have not kept pace with the times. For example, the employment agency standards inspectorate’s powers are activated only when they enter a premises.”
“Fair points were made by the Opposition spokespeople. Clearly, the Secretary of State is ultimately responsible to Parliament for the operation of the fair work agency and the use of powers by enforcement officers. I expect that will ensure that there is oversight at least on a parliamentary level. On an operational level, there will also be an opportunity for the advisory body to be involved. On the modernisation of the rules, I understand that that applies only to the employment agency standards inspectorate, because the other bodies already have those powers. It is not a dramatic extension of the existing powers that are already in place. Question put and agreed to. Clause 78, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 79 Power to enter business premises in order to obtain documents, etc”
“I beg to move amendment 87, in clause 79, page 83, line 11, leave out “business”. The effect of this amendment and amendment 89 is that the power in clause 79 may be exercised to enter any premises, including premises used as a dwelling, for the purposes of inspecting or examining documents on the premises, etc. However, NC8 provides that, in the case of a dwelling, the power is not exercisable without a warrant.”
“These amendments do precisely that by introducing a single process for obtaining warrants across the two powers that require them. The detailed safeguards included in the new schedule reinforce the transparency, legality and proportionality of these powers, which is vital for public trust in enforcement processes. The amendments also improve the clarity and coherence of the Bill, making it easier to implement and understand. Together, these measures strengthen the Bill, ensuring that robust enforcement mechanisms are paired with the necessary protections for individuals and premises, and I commend them to the Committee.”
“By granting access through a warrant-based system, enforcement officers can efficiently investigate breaches without undermining public trust. The proposed safeguards mirror those in other enforcement frameworks, ensuring consistency and fairness. This amendment is a necessary evolution of enforcement powers. It ensures that enforcement officers can effectively combat labour market abuses wherever they occur, while upholding and protecting the rights of individuals by ensuring that safeguards are in place. I now move to amendments 91, 94 and 96, new clause 9 and new schedule 1. The fair work agency is all about simplification, replacing multiple, complex approaches to enforcement with a single, simple system that—unlike this amendment grouping—is easy for employers and workers to understand.”
“These amendments therefore expand the scope of the power to cover dwellings that are used as business premises, but it is right that we introduce adequate safeguards for this power, because it in effect allows an arm of the state to enter family homes and disrupt private life. Therefore, there will be a requirement for enforcement officers to obtain a warrant from a justice before entering a dwelling. We believe this approach strikes a balance between ensuring robust enforcement of labour market legislation and modernising the law to include best practice safeguards. Without this amendment, enforcement efforts would be hampered. Many violations occur in business premises that double as private dwellings.”
“I will speak first to amendments 87 to 89 and new clause 8, which are necessary because they represent a vital step forward in ensuring effective enforcement while respecting fundamental rights. Clause 79 enables enforcement officers to enter business premises to carry out inspections. This is a fundamental and necessary clause for the fair work agency to operate. A workplace inspectorate that could not inspect workplaces would not be of much use. Clause 79 as initially drafted excluded dwellings from that power of entry but, as hon. Members will be aware, a significant number of businesses are now run from private dwellings, particularly within the gig economy and online marketplaces.”
“I did not quite follow the shadow Minister’s inconsistency point.”
“I am pleased that the shadow Minister recognises the need for these safeguards. As for who could accompany an enforcement officer, it would depend on the individual circumstances. It could be a police officer. It might be someone from social services. I had probably best write to the hon. Gentleman to set out in some more detail who that might apply to. I am afraid that asking how often we expect the powers to be used is rather like asking, “how long is a piece of string?” I would say, though, that some of the recent reports from the labour market enforcement bodies, including even the Low Pay Commission, show that there are actually quite a lot of labour violations in domestic settings—far more than there might have been in the past. That trend may well continue into the future.”
“See the explanatory statement for amendment 87. Amendment 90, in clause 79, page 83, line 30, leave out from “purpose” to end and insert “means— (a) the purpose of enabling the Secretary of State to determine whether to exercise any enforcement function; (b) the purpose of determining whether there has been any non-compliance with relevant labour market legislation; (c) the purpose of ascertaining whether there are documents on the premises which may be required as evidence in proceedings for any non-compliance with relevant labour market legislation;”.— (Justin Madders . ) This amendment clarifies the purposes for which the power conferred by clause 79 to enter premises and inspect documents, etc may be exercised. Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Certainly that would be my understanding, but I will happily write to him to confirm that. I now have some more examples of people who might accompany enforcement officers during a visit. I am told that it could be other enforcement officers; IT experts, as data might be stored on computers; or HMRC fraud investigators. As I have suggested, we will write to the hon. Gentleman with a detailed list so he has a better idea of what we are looking at. Amendment 87 agreed to. Amendments made: 88, in clause 79, page 83, line 12, at end insert— “This is subject to section ( Power to enter dwelling subject to warrant ) (which provides that a warrant is necessary to enter a dwelling).” This amendment is consequential on NC8. Amendment 89, in clause 79, page 83, leave out lines 28 and 29.”
“As we have already heard, part 5 of the Bill contains provisions that provide the building blocks that we will use to create the fair work agency. Several measures in the part, including some new clauses and amendments, are intended to specify how investigatory enforcement powers apply in relation to the intelligence services. They contain exemptions that are necessary to balance the protection of national security while ensuring that the fair work agency can still investigate when appropriate. Clause 101 defines GCHQ and the intelligence services for clarity. If the amendments and new clauses are agreed to, those terms will be used more widely. The amendments are a technical change to ensure that the defined terms are repositioned to clause 112, which defines terms as they apply across part 5.”
“This is necessary as a result of the amendment to the definition of “intelligence service information” in clause 101 that is made by Government amendment 181. These technical amendments insert wording to clarify who the relevant service chief is in relation to information that has been received directly or indirectly from, or in relation to, each of the intelligence services. This addition is intended to capture information that may be obtained or held by third parties that relates to the intelligence services. The amendments are part of a series of measures that are intended to balance the need to ensure that intelligence service information is protected, enabling the intelligence services to continue to do their important work, while also ensuring that the fair work agency can exercise relevant powers when necessary.”
“This is vital to ensure that there is not a two-tier system of enforcement whereby some workers have less protection than others because of who their employer is. I turn to Government amendment 181. Clause 101 imposes restrictions on the disclosure of intelligence service information, which is necessary to protect such information. It also defines “intelligence service information” for the purposes of that restriction. However, new clause 49 contains a slightly different definition, so Government amendment 181 amends that in clause 101 so that it is consistent with the definition in new clause 49(6)(c). Government amendments 177 to 179 are technical amendments that are consequential on Government amendment 181. They make changes to the definition of “appropriate service chief” in clause 101(4).”
“Clause 108, as introduced, sets out that the enforcement provisions in part 5 generally apply to Crown premises and the parliamentary estate. Clause 108(5) enables the Secretary of State to prevent powers of entry from being exercised in relation to Crown premises when that is deemed necessary for national security reasons. Government amendment 182 amends clause 181 to provide textual consistency and to ensure that new clause 49 functions as intended. The amendments strike a balance to ensure that the fair work agency does not inadvertently act in a way that could be prejudicial to key national interests that the intelligence services work hard to protect, while also enabling those services to be investigated like other employers.”
“New clause 49 will restrict the exercise of powers in clauses 78 and 79 in relation to the intelligence services, unless the Secretary of State is satisfied that using the powers would not be prejudicial to national security, the prevention and detection of serious crime and the economic wellbeing of the UK. The new clause requires the Secretary of State to issue a certificate of satisfaction before the powers can be exercised. Conditions on the exercise of either power may also be imposed if necessary. Subsection (5) also states that, other than as provided for in the clause, “nothing in this Part requires any person to…produce” or disclose any document or information “containing intelligence service information”. Government amendment 182 is consequential on Government new clause 49.”
“An officer can also have access to, and check the operation of, any computer or equipment, as such devices may store information that is necessary for the purposes of an investigation. The clause also allows the officer to seize any documents produced on the premises that may be necessary for the investigation. To enter a dwelling, as we have discussed, an officer will have to obtain a warrant from a justice. That reasonable safeguard protects the rights of all individuals to family life whilst allowing agents to carry out all the vital work they need to protect the rights of workers.”
“The clause has been drafted with the aim of continuing the current approach to enforcement and compliance, so in general, an officer will agree a time for their visit with the employer in advance and arrange the visit at a reasonable time during business hours. However, it allows an officer to turn up unannounced if they have reasonable grounds to believe that an employer may frustrate entry. The clause gives power to an officer to inspect or examine any documents on the premises. The officer may also require any person on the premises to produce documents that the officer has grounds to believe are on the premises and are within their control or possession. If the person cannot provide the necessary documents, they will be able to provide them to the officer at a later time and date.”
“I am sure if we had a Division on that, there would be some interesting comments. It can be difficult to keep up, but your understanding of the current grouping, Sir Christopher, is as mine, which is always an encouraging start. Turning to clause 79, all the existing employment rights enforcement bodies have powers to enter premises and inspect workplaces to gather information to inform their investigations, but each body’s powers are different and some of them are now very out of date. Clause 79 therefore introduces a single power to enter into any relevant premises to obtain information or documents.”
“The shadow Minister was quite right to refer back to our earlier debate on flexible working. Today, he certainly is the man with the golden pun, but this set of rules is slightly different: it still allows the intelligence services to be dealt with, whereas I think his proposal would have excluded the intelligence services altogether. The requirement is just that the Secretary of State is satisfied that the inspections and powers are necessary. Of course, when dealing with highly sensitive intelligence documents, we would want such safeguards, so I am pleased that he supports our measures. Question put and agreed to. Clause 79, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 80 Supplementary powers in relation to documents Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“It is proportionate because if a photograph or a copy can be made of a document, that document is released back to the owner. I hope Members understand why the powers will be necessary so that the fair work agency can pursue its activities effectively.”
“The clause is a vital element of the fair work agency’s investigatory powers. It means that enforcement officers can copy documents and require that information is produced in a legible and readable format so that officers can take information away for analysis in slower time. The clause is necessary to ensure thorough inspection of the relevant information and documents for the purpose of the investigation, and it builds on powers that existing bodies have. Clause 81 allows enforcement officers to retain any documents received under clause 78, or documents seized under clause 79, so that they have time to review documents properly to support their investigations and, if necessary, use those documents as evidence at trial. This reasonable and proportionate power is critical to allow the effective enforcement of employment rights.”
“I hope that I can put the shadow Minister’s mind at rest. My interpretation of the provisions of clause 81(2) are that they would apply equally to the provisions of clause 81(3) and that copies would be retained only for as long as necessary for the purposes set out in subsection (2). I will write to him if my understanding is incorrect, but I believe that the legislation is fairly clear on that point. Question put and agreed to. Clause 80 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 81 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 82 Powers of enforcement officers under Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“The integration will not only preserve the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority’s valuable work, but expand on it, reinforcing the Government’s commitment to protecting workers’ rights across the labour market. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.”
“The clause refers to where provision is made for authorised enforcement officers to exercise relevant powers under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Those powers are crucial in equipping enforcement officers to effectively investigate labour market offences. The clause forms part of our broader strategy to consolidate fragmented employment and labour practices under one unified fair work agency, including replacing the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority with a strengthened enforcement body. It is essential that these powers, which are currently exercised by the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority, are carried over to the fair work agency so that the agency can respond more swiftly and effectively to offences, ensuring that breaches of employment law are met with appropriate and immediate action.”
“I beg to move amendment 92, in clause 83, page 85, line 10, at end insert— “(aa) exercise any power conferred by section 79(2) or (4),”. This amendment would enable an enforcement officer entering premises with a warrant under clause 83 to exercise the same powers to inspect, examine and seize documents as would be exercisable if the officer had entered the premises in reliance on the power conferred by clause 79.”
“These are minor amendments to ensure that there is consistency between the general power of entry in clause 79 and the power of entry under clause 83. They provide for a consistent approach, which will be easier and simpler to understand. This is a technical change, but one that will ensure that these key powers are easy to interpret and understand.”