Justin Madders
MP for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough · Labour · United Kingdom
“Friend the Member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard asked about, will consider the points raised in this debate and whether any of them can be put into future updates to guidance. As was mentioned, good passenger information is central to standards.”
“As the roads Minister, I of course recognise the importance of bus stops and the important effect they have on the streetscape. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard made clear that she is passionate and informed about the importance of bus journeys to everyone.”
“Where responsibility for highways or individual assets sits elsewhere, close and effective working between the relevant authorities is essential. We expect local plans to join up services, infrastructure and passenger information, rather than treating them as separate issues. That will no doubt be music to the ears of my hon.”
“Our guidance encourages authorities to take a strategic approach to stops and interchanges, including keeping an inventory of infrastructure, identifying priorities for investment and setting locally appropriate standards for facilities and maintenance.”
“She is absolutely right that the quality of a bus stop is about more than accessibility, although of course accessibility is vital. Passengers notice whether a stop is easy to find and use, whether it offers shelter or seating where appropriate, whether it is clean, whether the surroundings feel safe and well maintained and, as we have di…”
“That approach reflects a simple principle: local transport authorities know their areas and are best placed to plan improvements across the whole local bus network. That is why the Department’s vision for buses, within an integrated transport system, puts local transport authorities at the centre of delivery.”
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“My hon. Friend is right: the explosion of zero-hours contracts in this country has been shameful. Over 1 million people are now on zero-hours contracts, and one in five of those people report that they would like to be able to get more hours of work, so we are going to end the uncertainty of zero-hours contracts. We are going to make sure that work pays, and we are going to give those people a legal right to a contract that reflects the number of hours they regularly work over a 12-week period.”
“I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his question. I just remind him that he has to direct the question to the Minister responding—I am sure we will get there in the end. I also remind the shadow Secretary of State that during the general election, the front page of The Times had 120 businesses supporting the Labour party in full knowledge of our plans to make work pay. We are consulting regularly and frequently—almost on a daily basis—with businesses about how the plans will work. I am afraid that the shadow Secretary of State has spent the summer putting out scaremongering statements about what this all means. In fact, the only statement he made over the summer on which I agreed with him was that his party deserved to lose the general election.”
“Again, I have to point out that I am not the Secretary of State—perhaps one day. We heard all these arguments 20 years ago with the minimum wage. Conservative Members were wrong about that, and they are wrong about this. I just hope they are a bit quicker to come round to realising that this country is going to prosper with improved workers’ rights, working in partnership with businesses to improve the economy for the benefit of everyone.”
“The introduction of the minimum wage was one of the proudest achievements of the last Labour Government, but for too long the UK’s labour market enforcement system has been fragmented and ineffective. That is bad for workers and bad for the majority of businesses that want do to the right thing and comply with the law. That is why we will create a fair work agency to bring together employment rights enforcement, including of the minimum wage.”
“I draw the House’s attention to my proud membership of the GMB trade union. We believe that businesses work best when they give workers a voice through a recognised trade union. I would be very interested to hear more about what has happened at the Amazon warehouse in Coventry. The Government will look closely at that as part of our plan to make work pay. We will simplify the process and laws around statutory recognition.”
“That certainly took the nation’s interest in more than one way. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has already announced a review into it, and we will look at secondary pricing. The whole system needs urgent reconsideration, and we understand that the Competition and Markets Authority is looking into the matter, too.”
“We are making sure that they can access historical data from both the Post Office and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to support their decision and the application. We also recognise that, with the best will and support in the world, in a few cases, some information may not be retrievable, but I assure hon. Members that, even in those cases, we will do all we can to ensure that a fair offer is made to sub-postmasters who have suffered this terrible injustice. This House was united in the last Parliament in its wish to see justice for sub-postmasters. In this Parliament, we intend to deliver on that.”
“But I would encourage those who believe that they are eligible not to wait for a letter. Please do come forward now and register for the Horizon conviction redress scheme. We have put guidance on gov.uk to help people know where they stand: whether their conviction has been overturned and, if eligible, how to apply for redress through the registration and application process. Victims will be able to choose from two options: first, they can either accept a fixed settlement of £600,000; or, secondly, they can choose a full claim assessment if they believe their losses exceed £600,000 and wish to have their application fully examined by the Government. No matter what route they choose to take, once an applicant’s eligibility is confirmed, they will be paid a preliminary payment of £200,000.”
“As hon. Members will know, convictions across the UK have been quashed through recent legislation, and those affected are now able to apply for financial redress under the Horizon convictions redress scheme. The scheme will be wholly delivered by the Department, not the Post Office. All the forms of redress, including those pursued under the group litigation order, will be delivered by the existing schemes. Since taking office, this Government have continued to work closely with the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to identify those who have had their convictions overturned. Letters have started to be issued to those eligible that will confirm that their conviction has been quashed and provide further information on how to access financial redress.”
“We have had to access court documents—sometimes stretching back decades—which has meant that there have been delays. The Ministry of Justice has put more resource into that to ensure that work carries on at pace. As the shadow Secretary of State has noted, the website is now up and running and applicants can register on it. I am pleased to report that, as of this morning, 89 people have already done so. We hope that, once verification checks have been completed, payments can be processed within 10 working days. We understand that the question on the Court of Appeal was discussed at length during the passage of the Post Office (Horizon System) Compensation Act 2024. The matter deserves further consideration, and I understand that the Minister for postal services has had conversations on what we can do in that respect.”
“We promised to update Parliament before the summer recess, and we have done that by way of a written ministerial statement. I note that, when the shadow Minister was the Minister, he came and answered on most occasions for the Government. We certainly did not take that as an indication that the Government were taking this matter any less seriously than they should, and that is not the case now either. I understand the frustration that the shadow Secretary of State has about the number of letters that have gone out, but there have been difficulties in corroborating some of that data. I understand that, when he made that promise as a Minister, he did so in good faith, but it has turned out that additional physical checks have been required.”
“My right hon. Friend makes an important point. We want payments to be processed as quickly as possible. Data is updated monthly on the Government website. We can see that, in terms of the group litigation order, 210 offers have now been made. Under the Horizon shortfall scheme, of 2,730 claimants, altogether 2,417 offers have been accepted. Of the 110 convictions on the overturned convictions scheme, initial payments have now been made to 103 of those people.”
“I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for their contribution. We are concerned that matters are taking too long. We have been working with lawyers who have signed up to a framework for representing claimants, and we are looking at ways we can speed the process up. There are issues in terms of collating enough expert evidence to support the claims, but we are looking at how that can be accelerated. On the independent process, we are looking at an independent mediation step after the initial decisions and offers are made, and ultimately an independent appeal decision will be considered as well.”
“My hon. Friend refers to some specific circumstances that I would welcome further information on. If he can contact the Department, the relevant Minister will look through those circumstances to see whether there is anything we can do, because we do not want anyone to be out of pocket as a result of this scandal.”
“I will certainly relay that back to the Department, and we will look in some detail at that. It is important that communities have a post office that they can access. They are a vital part of our infrastructure in this country and a vital lifeline for many individuals, and we want to make sure that every community is served as much as possible.”
“I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to her predecessor, who was tenacious in her pursuit of this matter. We have had a number of conversations with the Scottish Government, and we do not want to see any difference between how this scheme is administered in any part of the country. We are confident that will be the case.”
“The hon. Member asks an important question. Disclosure packs are being prepared for every claimant, which will contain what we believe is all the information they need to assess whether they wish to accept the fixed sum, or to proceed to a more detailed assessment of the claim. The pack will include details of their contracts and remuneration with the Post Office, details of whether they were eligible for the Royal Mail share plan and any other information that the Department can obtain that is requested. We want to work at pace with individuals to ensure they have all the information they need to make an informed decision.”
“I am indeed aware of my hon. Friend’s letter and all the work she has done over a number of years in support of her constituents and the wider sub-postmaster community. I am sure that the relevant Minister will agree to meet her and her constituent, and I will make sure that request is passed on to him.”
“We do not want sub-postmasters to feel guilty for claiming what is rightfully theirs. What this place has decided is their entitlement. We have taken measures to ensure that they will not have to foot any legal bills for taking advice in respect of their applications and we want to ensure that every potential head of loss is covered and adequately compensated for. We want to make the process as easy and swift as possible for those affected.”
“The hon. Member makes an important point, which has been raised on a number of previous occasions. We believe that the correct approach is for the inquiry to assess those individuals’ particular culpability, and then we will take forward its recommendations. It is important that we see individuals take some responsibility and accountability for their actions.”
“We are taking a close interest, as the hon. Member would expect, in the evidence coming forward in the inquiry. Much of it is shocking. The amount of obfuscation and, shall we say, misinformation put out by a number of individuals is concerning. We think it is right to wait and see what the chair of the inquiry recommends in terms of future action, but we are committed to looking at that closely and ensuring that individuals take responsibility for their actions.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Member for that question. Where there are evidential difficulties, we are looking at other ways of ensuring that those who should be eligible are entitled to claim. I am happy to have further conversations with her in that respect.”
“We are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that all the information required is verified and corroborated so that those individuals in Northern Ireland who have been caught up in this scandal receive that letter as soon as possible.”
“I congratulate the shadow Secretary of State on his new position and on securing the first urgent question of this Parliament. Members will know that the Government made a key manifesto commitment to ensure that justice and compensation are delivered as swiftly as possible for every postmaster caught up in the Horizon scandal. The Secretary of State has already met Sir Alan Bates, Kevan Jones and the chair of the Post Office, Nigel Railton, to discuss the progress being made and what more can be done. The Government intend to make a significant announcement on the new redress scheme before the summer recess. This scheme will apply to postmasters whose convictions have been overturned by the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Act 2024 passed in the last Parliament.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The shadow Secretary of State set out the intent he had in government, which we intend to carry on. We also believe there is absolutely no reason why we should not continue to work on a cross-party basis, as we agree with him on the importance of delivering fast and fair compensation, which is at the heart of all we are trying to achieve. We will be making a statement by the end of July, before the summer recess. As the shadow Secretary of State has already noted, we have committed to do that. We are working at pace with officials, victims and those who have been affected by the scandal to work up the detail, and an announcement will be made in due course.”
“My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. In recent years, we, as Members, have reflected on the question of political accountability for decisions that have been taken and actions that have taken place over many years. We will be reflecting on how best to ensure there is genuine political accountability in the system.”
“I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the current chief executive officer has stepped aside for a brief period to concentrate on the inquiry. Over the coming months, we will be reflecting on the important questions that the right hon. Gentleman raises, particularly when the outcome of the inquiry is known.”
“My understanding is that the last Government undertook a consultation on whistleblowing. We are reflecting on the outcome of that and on the important point my hon. Friend raises. Across a whole range of bodies in this country, whistleblowers have not been heard. We need to consider whether the current legislation gives them sufficient confidence to speak out, and whether their actions and concerns are being addressed.”
“I am concerned to hear about such incidents. It should go without saying that the postmasters are not the ones who should take the opprobrium of the public on this matter. They are doing a fantastic job. They hold communities together and provide a public service. We should celebrate that and encourage people to use their facilities as much as possible. If the right hon. Gentleman has specific examples of postmasters receiving abuse or people being discouraged to use their services because of the scandal, I would be interested to hear about them.”
“I thank the right hon. Member for her question. Those are the principles that we want to address and carry on with from the previous Government: the system should be fair, swift and simple. We know that postmasters have already gone through an incredibly difficult time. We do not want to make it even harder by having a convoluted system. We absolutely agree that justice should be fair, quick, complete and straightforward for people.”
“That is a very important question. It would be premature of us to draw conclusions before the inquiry has been completed but, absolutely, we should be looking very carefully at all those individuals whose behaviour unfortunately led to the scandal happening and to it taking far too long to address. That is a matter for the inquiry to make recommendations on and, certainly, we will be looking to follow those up.”
“What a surprise to see the hon. Member in his place today. I am sure that this will not be last time that we have an exchange across the Dispatch Box, but he does raise an important point. We absolutely agree that we need to make it as easy as possible for postmasters to raise their concerns and to get the justice that they have so long waited for.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his question. He makes an important point. Justice is one side of the coin, but there is also accountability for what has happened. A lot of people want to see that: not just those directly affected, but everyone who has been outraged by the years of inertia and obfuscation that we have seen in this scandal. The purpose of the inquiry is to get to the heart of who knew what, who did what and who did not do what they should have done, and whether individuals should take some responsibility for their actions. I have no doubt that, when those recommendations are released, we will want to see some very swift action on the back of that.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his question, and join him in praising Lord Arbuthnot’s work in this area. As of 31 May, £222 million has already been paid out in compensation. There have actually been significant interim payments as well. We understand that, while this is a very large scheme, it is important that we get early payments, so I assure the hon. Member that interim payments are a very large part of this programme.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his important question. We have been working closely with colleagues in the Ministry of Justice to identify those people who are affected by the legislation, and they will be contacted in due course if they have not been already.”
“Last week, Stellantis, the owner of the Vauxhall car plant in Ellesmere Port, announced that it would import electric vehicles, despite the fact that we produce some great electric vans in Ellesmere Port and want to move on to producing cars there as well. Does the Minister think that, over the long term, reaching our net zero targets through the import of cheaper Chinese vehicles will be a good or bad thing for the UK car industry?”
“As I understand the Government’s position on the International Criminal Court, it is because Israel was not a signatory to the original treaty and because Palestine is not a sovereign state that the Government do not believe that the ICC has jurisdiction. That leads us to a place where anyone can opt out of the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court at any time. That is a terrible place for the Government and for us as a country to be. If the Minister does not agree with that, will he at least agree that the letter from the 12 United States Senators to the ICC, where they said, “Target Israel and we will target you” and that they would ensure that “all American support for the ICC” is withdrawn, is not a place that this Government will ever be in?”
“I was recently contacted by a constituent regarding her 16-year-old son, who has sadly been diagnosed with Hodgkin lymphoma. As if that was not enough to deal with, the chemotherapy started at the end of last month and he is taking his GCSEs right now. It is very difficult, and we have found a whole raft of rules regarding when his situation can be taken into account in those GCSEs. Clearly he will miss some of the exams because of treatment or its effects. We have found out that the pathway is not at all clear and straightforward. On some occasions, only a certificate of recognition can be awarded, rather than an actual GCSE. We would really like a debate about what more we can do to make sure that the pathway is made easier for children in very difficult circumstances and their parents.”
“I welcome the focus on tackling misogyny online and the influencers who peddle it, but I worry that year 5 will be a little too late to stop that influence taking hold. I want to ask the Secretary of State about providing positive male role models for young boys, which is a really important part of this. Will she address that in the consultation?”
“I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for describing his experiences in connection with this matter. We have a clear finding of maladministration, but Government acceptance of that does not automatically follow, so we are having a debate today about whether we accept the findings when, given the timescale, we ought surely to be thinking more about how we deal with issues relating to who is eligible and who is not.”
“In 2021 the Chinese Government enacted a law that called for the “creation and broadcast of online content conducive to the healthy growth of minors”. That can of course be seen as part of the wider attitude to free speech in China, but it is of interest that they obviously see that some of the content on these channels might have a detrimental effect on a child’s development, but they are more than happy for that stuff to be pumped on to our own children’s screens.”
“I wonder how we have managed to get to the point at which our critical infrastructure is so open to influence by Chinese investors. How have we got to the point where China is a part owner in Thames Water and has significant debts to at least two Chinese state-owned banks? I think we can all see where that might lead us if international tensions rise. Away from manufacturing, as the hon. Member mentioned, issues in cyber-security have been well documented. Indeed, there was a debate here yesterday on the dangers of social media. I absolutely agree with what the hon. Member said about the differences between TikTok and its Chinese equivalent, Douyin. From a child’s perspective, in China it certainly has a lot more educational content.”
“We cannot allow ourselves to be at the mercy of one country, especially not one like China, which has what I would consider to be a ruthless focus on economic dominance. As we have heard from the hon. Member for Isle of Wight, that could lead us into a very dark place indeed. Clearly, we benefit from Chinese investment in this country. Life sciences is a sector that it is investing in heavily. After what the hon. Member has said, that needs to be looked at very carefully as well. The fact is that I could go down any street in this country and see things that have Chinese ownership: pubs, shops, restaurants, cinemas. That is probably fair enough in a global economy, but what about water companies, energy companies and nuclear power plants?”
“It was reported in February that the Government were contemplating commissioning the Trade Remedies Authority to undertake an investigation into subsidies, but three months on we have silence. Is the Minister able to confirm whether the Government are still looking into that and whether they will look at what the EU says if conclusive evidence of subsidies is found? We risk putting ourselves in a very exposed position. Our manufacturing capacity would be reduced, probably permanently, and we would be kidding ourselves about the race to net zero if we were reliant on Chinese imports. Cars are just one example of our potential exposure; steel, energy, fibre optics, semiconductors, rare elements or any number of parts of our infrastructure are part of this discussion.”
“As we have heard, yesterday President Biden announced he was introducing a 100% tariff on electric vehicles made in China, as well as tariffs on lithium batteries, critical minerals and semiconductors. That is a move designed to prevent cheap, subsidised Chinese goods from entering the US market. The decision was taken after a four-year review, and there are similar moves across the EU to assess the impact of Chinese imports. Since October, the EU has been investigating whether local subsidies have been helping Chinese car manufacturers undercut European-made vehicles. The investigation is due to report shortly. I am not aware of a similar review being undertaken here.”
“It is too soon to understand the impact of that on domestic production, but surely it is not going to help. That is not to say that I want to insulate the UK from competition, but there has to be fair competition, and there has to be one eye on the future. There is no doubt that the move to an all-electric vehicle country is going to be expensive and we should be looking at how we keep costs down, but if major manufacturers are already concluding that the best way for them to meet that challenge is to turn to Chinese imports, we are never going to have the domestic manufacturing capacity to meet domestic demand, never mind being able to continue to be the proud exporter to the rest of the world that we have always been.”
“It announced yesterday that it will be selling Chinese-made electric vehicles in Europe from the autumn, and in the UK from next year. We have a very proud history of manufacturing in this country, and indeed in Ellesmere Port, at what is commonly known as the Vauxhall motor plant, which is now owned by Stellantis. A lot of work was put in to secure the investment needed to move to electric vehicle production, which is very important for the plant, for the constituency and for the whole UK automotive sector. I had hoped that we could lead the way in the sale of new electric vehicles, as the plan was always to expand from where we are now—from the production of vans into the domestic car market—so it is a concern that the owners are already turning to cheaper Chinese electric vehicles.”
“It is a pretty serious, broad statement of where we are and what we need to do. We need to recognise China’s size and influence, alongside the risks that it brings. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight made the point very eloquently that our reliance is one of those risks, alongside China’s greater aggression, its human rights record and the strengthening of its partnership with Russia; they are all potential existential threats. In many respects, the news emerging this week on both sides of the Atlantic is a stark reminder that these challenges are here and now, and that care needs to be taken. I will take one very clear example from my own constituency, which feeds into the wider picture that has been painted today. There is a Stellantis plant in my constituency.”
“It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Ms Rees. I congratulate the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) on securing the debate and on his excellent, wide-ranging opening remarks. He set out the challenges we face as a country, and presented a pretty dystopian vision of the future, if we allow it to happen. I hope that we are able to collectively rise to the challenges he laid out. The hon. Member raised a number of matters that I will touch on. I start with the refreshed integrated review, published by the Government last year, which stated: “China…poses an epoch-defining and systemic challenge with implications for almost every area of government policy and the everyday lives of British people.” I consider that a welcome revision to our approach.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He makes a very important point—the bits of it that I actually understood. He must have seen my speech because I am about to make the very important distinction—”