Bill Esterson
MP for Sefton Central · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the Prime Minister said on Tuesday, our energy supply and our energy security are not a question of having either oil and gas, or renewables; they are about both. It is a great pity that proper process was not followed in 2022 or 2023. [ Interruption.”
“I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to continuing Britain’s global leadership on climate action, including by going to COP31. I also welcome his focus on breathing space for people and businesses, but, as he said, it will take a lot more than that to deliver the growth and reindustrialisation that he is so committed to.”
“Last week the Committee heard from Claire Dykta, the director of strategy and policy at NESO, who told us: “Operational decisions are taken by authorised, trained personnel only.” Her comments were confirmed by Alastair Martin, the chief strategy officer at Flexitricity, who, in the same session, said: “I do not think the idea that the he…”
“As the Minister has just said, new nuclear is essential for energy security. It is also essential as an alternative career for workers in oil and gas.”
“Paul and Susan Robinson each worked for the Health and Safety Executive for more than 40 years. They have not been able to plan for their retirement since finishing work last year; they have been living off their savings and the small loan that they have had. They are typical of the dozens of constituents who have contacted me.”
“Hudson primary school in my constituency does a brilliant job. It is a family hub, it specialises in support for children with SEND and autism, and it has a nursery, but its building, which is 80 years old, suffers from a high water table that brings damp, mould and structural problems for the building—as does occasional flooding.”
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“I hope we all agree that if they are intended consequences, that would be a very retrograde step, because it would be deliberately harmful to small and medium-sized businesses in the country. As we heard from the Federation of Small Businesses and the other business groups that gave evidence to the Committee last week, it is already very difficult for smaller firms to get contracts in this country. Like my hon. Friend, I hope that the Government genuinely mean it when they say that they are trying to improve the situation for smaller firms bidding for Government contracts. Government procurement is one of the best ways to stimulate the economy and push funds through smaller firms, which are a source of growth, of much innovation and creativity, and of job creation across our country.”
“It was not just the way the agreements were negotiated but the way that the Bill was brought forward—and just last night, of course, the Prime Minister apologised to the nation for the mistakes that she made as head of the Government in the recent mini-Budget and the disastrous effect that it had on the economy. The clause gives Ministers the powers to put into operation what my hon. Friend and others have referred to as GPA-plus, with contracts of unknown value, and more contracts being advertised, to benefit not just companies from Australia and New Zealand but companies across the world whose countries are GPA members. I found what my hon. Friend said about the—I assume—unintended consequences extraordinary.”
“It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Pritchard. I was struck by a number of points that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West made about the fact that the Bill is about procurement alone, and about the way that it has been drawn up. He said at the start of his speech, in talking about the then Trade Secretary, who is now the Prime Minister, that a few mistakes were made in negotiating the trade agreements—that things were done in a rush. In listening to my hon. Friend make the case for the amendment, I wondered whether that is becoming something of a habit of this Government.”
“Did my hon. Friend notice that the Minister did not actually address one of the central points that he and I raised, which is that the opportunity would be widened to all countries that are signed up to the GPA? That causes great concern about the loss of contracts to businesses in this country.”
“My hon. Friend is making the case very well about the need to involve the farming and agriculture industry in trade agreement scrutiny. Was she struck, like I was, by the comments from Jonnie Hall of NFU Scotland about “retrospective scrutiny” and the fact that this weakened the role of the Trade and Agriculture Commission? Does she share my view that the evidence we heard is exactly why we need the kind of analysis referred to in amendment 7 before the regulations are implemented?”
“My hon. Friend makes good points about the way that France and European Union scrutinise trade agreements. In the context of agriculture, the other really good example is the United States. Recently, the United States trade unions had access to negotiating texts during the negotiation period and were able to insist on improvements to employment rights in the recent United States-Mexico-Canada agreement, which, crucially, protects workers in Mexico who face draconian approaches and attacks on trade unionists. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should have a similar process in this country? In the absence of that process, the amendments are a desperately needed back-up.”
“My hon. Friend is talking about consultation and amendment 5 refers to the representatives of the English regions. Earlier, the Minister was talking about Essex County Council. He did not mention Southend-on-Sea City Council, where he is a Member of Parliament. I could not help but notice that the procurement objectives of Southend are: “Maximising the opportunities for Social Value, Economic Sustainability, and benefits for the local community”. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister, in accepting the amendment, would do well to engage with the objectives of his own local authority to ensure that procurement policy is put into practice in a proper way?”
“Rosa Crawford pointed out that the trade unions had never been given a place on the trade advisory groups since they were set up, if the Minister remembers last week’s evidence session. Why is it that in the United States the trade unions have access to negotiating texts and are able to influence changes, as they did in protecting workers in Mexico? Does he think that that is right or wrong? If he thinks it is right, why does he not allow it to happen in this country?”
“In her initial answer to the urgent question, the Leader of the House blamed international circumstances. If that is true, why do people in this country face paying more in increased mortgage payments than people elsewhere in the world; and if it is true, why did the former deputy Governor of the Bank of England say yesterday that the crash in the markets was the result of unique circumstances in the UK? Would it not be better for the Leader of the House and the Prime Minister to admit that they got it wrong and they are responsible, as a first and necessary step in rebuilding confidence in the markets?”
“Good morning, Lucy. You talked about the potential challenge of larger Australian and New Zealand businesses winning UK Government contracts. Is there anything in the legislation you would like to see amended to support small UK businesses in winning Government contracts when facing that international competition?”
“Q Let me repeat the question so that the other witnesses can address it, too. Lucy made a point about the concern about larger Australian and New Zealand businesses winning Government contracts in the UK. I asked her what kind of amendment might be made to the legislation to support smaller UK businesses—to which we can add larger UK businesses, as you have both joined us—as a defensive measure in respect of UK Government procurement.”
“The thing that I think could be done with the legislation would be to ensure that our treaty scrutiny deficit is not furthered, by ensuring that regulations brought in under the Bill will be debated. There is nothing to reopen the content of the agreement.”
“There will be no opportunity for further regulations to be brought in to implement the procurement chapter. There will be no opportunity to debate those statutory instruments, which I think is a problem. This Bill is a vehicle for debating the agreement in the round. We had concerns that the Secretary of State said, in a session with the International Trade Committee during the CRaG process, that the process of implementing legislation was an opportunity to discuss the content of the Bill; we do not see how that is the case. I have spoken about the scrutiny context, but given how narrow this legislation is, and given that it focuses on one specific chapter of the agreement—the procurement chapter—there is no meaningful scope for that further debate.”
“Q Good morning, Leo. On the points you were making, the Bill is the implementation of the agreement; is there anything we can do by amending the Bill to address concerns we may have about what is in the free trade agreement? Leo Verity: In terms of amending the content of the agreement, as it stands I do not think so. One of the things we would be concerned about with the Bill in particular is that it is going to entrench some of the failures we have already seen in the scrutiny process. For example, we submitted written evidence, alongside the Public Law Project, that talks about the fact the secondary legislation brought in under the Bill will be subject to the negative procedure, and how that compounds the overall scrutiny deficit.”
“The Scottish Parliament has passed a legislative consent memorandum against the Bill on the basis that UK Ministers would be able to make further regulations without the need to refer back to Scottish Ministers. In addition to that, there are also some concerns expressed that there would not need to be further consultation with Scottish Ministers if the agreements were altered in the future. The Scottish Government have pointed out that that is a strange thing to include, given that the agreements have just been signed and this legislation will ultimately be superseded by the Procurement Bill that is with the Lords at the moment. Those are some of the areas that refer to treaty scrutiny and ensuring that any powers brought in under the Bill can be subject to proper scrutiny.”
“Q You mentioned your concern about the negative procedure. I think by implication you were saying you would like to see that replaced with an affirmative procedure. What other concerns about the Bill do you have that you think we might want to address and attempt to amend? Leo Verity: I have a couple of minor points on that, which, again, are covered in the written evidence that the Public Law Project did some fantastic work on. Some of the powers in clause 1 are not constrained by any kind of necessity test. I believe the wording is that regulations can be made where they are considered appropriate. I think that could potentially be problematic. I know that concerns have also been expressed by the devolved Governments about the content and powers in the Bill.”
“That has been subject to criticism from ourselves, but also from lots of business groups and others. There is no reason to be hasty in these agreements. These are new, from-scratch and comprehensive agreements, and as far as I can infer this legislation is in place so that the agreements can be signed off more quickly. That is what we have seen reflected in the scrutiny processes: there seems to have been a rush where none was needed. People on all sides of the argument accept the principle that more scrutiny is worth while, but that is all that I can read from it. Whether it is a good use of parliamentary time for this Bill to be debated in detail before being superseded by the Procurement Bill, I am not altogether certain, but that is an open question.”
“Q The Procurement Bill will repeal the provisions of this Bill. Given that the ratification of the FTAs is likely to be months away, why do you think the Government introduced this Bill separately? Leo Verity: It is a good question. It also goes back to the point about the timelines for the Australian ratification of the agreement from their side. As far as I can infer, it is because the view is that this legislation can be passed quickly, and it is anticipated that the Procurement Bill will last for a long time. It often seems to be the case in the passage of these trade agreements that the Government have a tendency to impose arbitrary deadlines on themselves. We see it with the UK-India free trade agreement at the moment: we are two weeks away from the deadline that the Government imposed on themselves to come back with an agreement.”
“Q Between the four of you, you have raised a number of concerns, including on standards, scale of production, particularly in Australia, quotas and their implementation, carbon footprints and local exemptions. If those concerns cannot be addressed in the Bill, do you think there is a way of addressing them in the Procurement Bill? If so, what sort of provisions might you want to see introduced in that legislation?”
“The inadequate protections around environmental standards also have an impact on workers’ rights; allowing produce with lower environmental safety standards to be imported into the UK potentially exposes workers here to more dangerous chemicals and other production methods that impact on workers’ safety and protection. We are concerned about the approach taken in both agreements.”
“There are similar provisions in the CPTPP labour chapter, despite the fact that CPTPP contains countries that are egregiously breaching labour rights—such as Vietnam, where trade unions are banned, as well as Brunei. We have not seen the CPTPP labour chapter being used at all. To us, those kinds of provisions are ineffective when they are included in a trade agreement, so it is concerning that the trade agreements we have with Australia and New Zealand do not have those effective provisions in place for labour standards. It sets a concerning standard for trade agreements we might sign with future partners, particularly as the Government are considering signing trade deals with places where labour rights are much worse, such as Gulf states, India and Israel. The direction of travel is concerning in Australia and New Zealand.”
“New Zealand has not ratified the fundamental conventions on minimum age, health and safety, or freedom of association, and Australia has not ratified the fundamental conventions on minimum age, and health and safety. Without that base of fundamental rights, there can be potential for a pressure on rights to lower here, as businesses take advantage of the market access they can get through the UK-Australia and UK-New Zealand trade agreements to places where they can potentially respect rights less. That could pressure rights to be lowered here. You do not have a labour chapter that has high standards, requirements and rights, and it has an ineffective enforcement mechanism that requires a proven effect on investment and trade, which we think will be difficult to meet.”
“Q Can we go back, Rosa, to what you were saying about the impact on workers’ rights, and indeed environmental considerations? Can I confirm that your concern—or one of your concerns—about the Bill and the trade agreement behind it is that organisations have the ability to undercut rights and standards, in spite of what is elsewhere in domestic legislation? Rosa Crawford: Yes, that is correct. With both the UK-Australia and the UK-New Zealand trade agreements, you have a weak labour chapter that makes reference only to the ILO declaration, rather than a requirement of fundamental international labour organisation standards respected by both parties. That is an issue in Australia and New Zealand because, despite the fact they both have progressive Governments, neither has ratified all the fundamental ILO conventions.”
“The homes of people living near the proposed fracking site at Altcar Moss shook as a result of the tests that the Secretary of State referred to earlier. He said that shale gas was safe, but his Government paid compensation to residents living near fracking sites in Lancashire. The Government’s own report says that little progress has been made in reducing and predicting the risks. When is he finally going to admit that fracking is a non-starter in this country?”
“The messages of condolence from my constituents have displayed warmth and gratitude to the Queen. Memories of her will be treasured for years to come. Queen Elizabeth II did her duty for my constituents and deserves our heartfelt thanks for her service to our nation. May she rest in peace. Long live the King.”
“Aintree racecourse is in my Sefton Central constituency and is, of course, home to the world’s most famous horserace. Given the Queen’s love of horses, it is perhaps no surprise that she first attended the grand national in 1956, and it is fitting that Red Rum saved his record third win in the grand national for 1977 and the Queen’s silver jubilee. People across Sefton have fond memories of the Queen’s visits, and none more so than in 1993 when she joined the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the battle of the Atlantic at Bootle town hall. The links to the armed forces and to the merchant navy, which she recognised through her visits to Sefton, have provided service personnel and civilians with fond memories and demonstrated her gratitude for their service to our nation.”
“Like so many people, I have only known a world in which Queen Elizabeth II was our Queen. The wonderful tributes we have heard often include reference to the amazing longevity of her reign, and I was reminded of this when I looked at the dates of her many visits to Sefton. When the Queen first visited Bootle, Crosby and Southport in the early 1950s, they were all in the county of Lancashire. They became part of the borough of Sefton only some 20 years later with local government reorganisation, which is a story familiar to many people across the country. The Queen also visited Bootle in 1962 and as part of her silver jubilee tour in 1977. She went to the Altcar training camp in my constituency in 1985, and she went to Southport again on the same visit.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate on such an important topic. Rimrose Valley is shared between our constituencies, and our constituents enjoy its value. He is talking about air quality and public health, and I remind him that 40,000 deaths per year are linked to poor air quality and subsequent breathing-relating illnesses. Does he agree that the Government’s own public health goals say that such issues should be tackled urgently, and that the Department for Transport, by pursuing this option of a polluting road, is at odds with the Government’s own stated policy objectives of saving lives through improving air quality?”
“My hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins) have both pointed out the importance of levelling up and investing in transport across the nation. Given that this is a strategically important link, should not it be done with the longer term in mind, including climate objectives and ensuring that freight can travel as effectively as possible? That means providing alternatives to roads. The problem is that if we put more lorries on the roads, we will slow down delivery times and also deliver a less effective solution to the challenge of how we move goods around the country.”
“All the campaigns, my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle and I agree about the importance of transport and investment in it to unlock opportunity and to contribute to levelling up; the point we are making is about the nature of the transport, the infrastructure and other impacts. My hon. Friend and I have tried to engage with National Highways, to make the case for alternatives to this road solution, because of the HGV issue he and I raised earlier. In a letter to me, National Highways called my inquiries “vexatious”. Does the Minister agree that National Highways’ response—calling the elected representatives of the people of Sefton “vexatious” and refusing to engage on alternatives to a road—is wholly inappropriate and flies in the face of the policy that he has just set out?”
“A number of times throughout this discussion, the Minister has agreed with hon. Members from across the House that Avanti is delivering a service that is simply not acceptable. Will she admit that her Department’s only logical step to improve that service must include removing the franchise from Avanti?”
“The Minister may want to reiterate some of her points about those assurances being in place. With that, I am happy to go along with what she has said so far.”
“Looking at the House of Lords Hansard , the debate focused on the protection of individuals and ensuring that those protections were not open to abuse. The Minister, Lord Callanan, stressed that 163 out of 436 applications for protection under the existing register have been granted since 2016. He said that the low proportion of exemptions granted under the existing regime was evidence that a rigorous regime would be in place for overseas entities. I think the Minister addressed that in her remarks when she described the process of supplying evidence to the registrar. However, it is important that she assures us that the process will be robust, that true identities will not continue to be hidden and that there is no potential for ongoing criminality.”
“There should be nothing controversial about knowing who really owns property in in a healthy, transparent economy and making that information publicly available. This is a matter not simply of targeting individuals or entities through sanctions, but of fixing a broken system that has helped to sustain Vladimir Putin in his invasion of Ukraine. However, it is not just because of oligarchs and their position in Putin’s regime that this is finally being expedited. I congratulate the Minister’s officials on their thorough work in setting this up, as she described. However, it is a matter of regret and of concern that the Government dragged their feet when we called for these measures time and again. They were first promised in 2016. Since then, £1.5 billion-worth of property has been bought by Russians linked to the Kremlin.”
“The Minister described the process whereby documents will be delivered electronically to the Registrar of Companies, and I will come on to discuss some of the slight exemptions. It will also set up the protection regime under which exemptions may be allowed. The regime will allow owners and managing officers of overseas entities to apply to have their information made unavailable for public inspection when there is evidence that they or someone in their household is at serious risk of violence or intimidation. We believe that that balance is the right approach. Questions were raised in the House of Lords about ensuring that those protections are not abused. To be fair to the Minister, she attempted, as I have indicated, to address those questions, but I want to tease some things out a little further.”
“It is good to see you in the Chair, Ms Rees. I welcome the Minister to her place and commend her on a thorough analysis and description of what the instrument does. She has pretty much answered my questions. I congratulate her on that, because that is not normally what happens, as any Government Member who has attended a statutory instrument debate to which I have responded can attest. The Minister pointed out that the instrument is essential for the implementation of the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022. It also implements aspects of the new register of overseas entities, which will finally require owners of UK property to reveal their true identity and crack down on foreign criminals using UK property to launder money.”
“Promises were made during the passage of two trade Bills, and those promises—for a debate on the Floor of the House before ratification—have been repeated ever since by Ministers. The Minister knows only too well that scrutiny after ratification is no scrutiny at all, so why have the Government not used the seven months that he keeps talking about to bring a debate to the Floor of the House, and why are they so against scrutiny of an agreement with such profound consequences for farming, food production and animal welfare?”
“Rare earth minerals are essential to our economy, not least in low-carbon sectors and in defence. The Japanese Government developed their rare minerals plan as long ago as 2010, in response to a blockade by China. I know the UK Government say that they will publish a critical materials strategy in the autumn, but if other countries have been building resilience since 2010, what confidence can we have that this Government will develop an effective strategy for our economy and our national security when, as the Secretary of State has just admitted, they have only just woken up to the scale of the risks that we face?”
“I know that schools in Dorset applied to the schools rebuilding programme. I know, too, that the Minister appreciates the importance of informing schools of their place on the programme as soon as possible. However, Under-Secretary of State for Education Baroness Barran told me that schools will be informed later this year. Can the Minister say when schools in Dorset and Lydiate Primary School in my constituency will be told whether they will receive the money that they desperately need?”
“Ultimately, if there is a situation where cash flow is problematic, how does he envisage ensuring that that does not create problems through the supply chain for SMEs, self-employed contractors and the workforce?”
“I gently say to the Minister that it would be helpful if we could see the consultation responses before we debate statutory instruments, so that we can scrutinise the concerns that were raised with Ministers directly. It was helpful of him to draw our attention to what some of those concerns might be, but could he confirm whether I am correct in assuming that the people consulted raised the same concerns as me, or did they raise other concerns? That covers the main points. In essence, I would like to hear from the Minister whether pay when delivered is in danger of getting close to pay when paid, and how that will be avoided and policed.”
“I am not suggesting for one minute that this is another potential Carillion—it is on a very different scale and, as the Minister has set out, it is a regulated situation—but ultimately this comes down to cash flow. I am concerned about what happens if tier 1 contractors are not in a position to ensure their cash flow because of the way in which contracts are let and agreed, in spite of their awareness of the terms up front. We need to do everything we can to avoid problems through the supply chain for SMEs, self-employed contractors and the workforce. That is the key point. On a related point, I want to tease out whether the concerns I have raised are the same as those raised in the consultation responses.”
“If payment is made after one month, that should not adversely affect the cash flow and ability of the tier 1 contractor to pay SMEs, self-employed contractors and the workforce more widely. However, what are the implications if payment is made after six months or longer? I take the Minister’s point about the SPV, but what protection is there for those contractors who are not part of it? That seems to be the key challenge to tease out, to make sure they do not end up with cash-flow problems. We are all acutely aware of what can go wrong in the construction industry. In recent years, Carillion left £2 billion unpaid to its supply chain.”
“The Lords Minister’s answers raised additional questions, which the Minister has not quite addressed this morning. First, he mentioned that the tier 1 provider would often be part of the special purpose vehicle. Could he clarify how often that is likely to be the case? In circumstances where it will not be the case, what protections would there be through the supply chain? I can perhaps pre-empt his answer, because he did say that whoever the contractor is would be aware of the terms and the dispute resolution mechanism. Cash flow was also raised in the House of Lords. Given what has been said by the Minister, the explanatory memorandum and in the House of Lords, I believe I am right in saying that payment is due to the tier 1 contractor when services are delivered. That gives rise to a question about the timeframes.”
“It is a pleasure, as always, to have you in the Chair, Mr Gray. I am grateful to the Minister for his in-depth explanation of the order, but I will perhaps tease out further one or two of the points that he made. The Minister quite rightly made the point that the construction Act was designed to address, among other things, the very real concerns about poor payment practices, particularly through construction industry supply chains. It addressed the way in which pay when paid was used to undermine the interests of smaller firms and self-employed contractors. It explained the rationale, and the fact is that this has been used previously. What the Minister has said, however, raises a number of questions, some of which were raised in the House of Lords.”
“The Minister mentioned the consultees and named some fairly large businesses. Were SMEs and those further down the supply chain part of the consultation? What were their responses?”
“The Minister has said that there has not yet been an example of this disapplication, so we are not in a position to judge it. There are, however, two earlier examples of where the construction Act has been disapplied. Are those examples relevant or are they different and, therefore, not relevant?”
“Leaving it until the last minute to announce the renewal of safeguards denies UK steel producers certainty. Certainty matters if they are to secure investment, and investment matters in an industry that is strategically important for our economic and national security. The Secretary of State has talked a lot about clean steel. If she wants to demonstrate that the Government really do back investment in moving to clean steel, will she tells us whether they will provide the certainty needed by businesses, workers and steel communities and match Labour’s commitment to a £3 billion green steel fund?”
“My constituents will not be able to use Merseyrail trains tomorrow, but not because there is a strike at Merseyrail. There is no strike because Labour-run Liverpool city region has met the rail unions and avoided strikes at Merseyrail. However, there still will not be any trains in Merseyside because this Conservative Transport Secretary is responsible for Network Rail, where there is a strike, and he has refused to meet the unions for months. Labour has found a way to resolve potential disputes in Wales and in Merseyside, so what is it about this Transport Secretary that prevents him from finding solutions and stopping these strikes?”
“The Government have cut the infrastructure that they promised at the last election, not least in Northern Powerhouse Rail. The economy needs greater rail capacity for passengers and freight, so does not this great rail betrayal show that the Government are not interested in the infrastructure needed for the economy in the north and the midlands to thrive?”