Bill Esterson
MP for Sefton Central · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the Prime Minister said on Tuesday, our energy supply and our energy security are not a question of having either oil and gas, or renewables; they are about both. It is a great pity that proper process was not followed in 2022 or 2023. [ Interruption.”
“I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to continuing Britain’s global leadership on climate action, including by going to COP31. I also welcome his focus on breathing space for people and businesses, but, as he said, it will take a lot more than that to deliver the growth and reindustrialisation that he is so committed to.”
“Last week the Committee heard from Claire Dykta, the director of strategy and policy at NESO, who told us: “Operational decisions are taken by authorised, trained personnel only.” Her comments were confirmed by Alastair Martin, the chief strategy officer at Flexitricity, who, in the same session, said: “I do not think the idea that the he…”
“As the Minister has just said, new nuclear is essential for energy security. It is also essential as an alternative career for workers in oil and gas.”
“Paul and Susan Robinson each worked for the Health and Safety Executive for more than 40 years. They have not been able to plan for their retirement since finishing work last year; they have been living off their savings and the small loan that they have had. They are typical of the dozens of constituents who have contacted me.”
“Hudson primary school in my constituency does a brilliant job. It is a family hub, it specialises in support for children with SEND and autism, and it has a nursery, but its building, which is 80 years old, suffers from a high water table that brings damp, mould and structural problems for the building—as does occasional flooding.”
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“Yet again, we have no business impact assessment. Again, I put on record that it is impossible for members of this Committee to know whether that is an appropriate judgment by the Department, because we do not have enough information before us; we do not have the depth of knowledge, the detail of consultation or comment by expert witnesses to give us the evidence to judge whether there will be a significant impact. The regulations mention the Financial Reporting Council’s involvement and the fact that it is being asked to set up and oversee an endorsement board to take on the responsibilities currently delivered by the European Commission. That is cause for great concern. The FRC is due to be reconstituted, involving primary legislation, as a result of the Kingman review, which was published in December.”
“Will the Minister confirm whether that is true here and whether the informal consultees, assuming there have been some, were asked to comment on a similar basis—only on the very narrow technical content of the regulations—or whether they were asked to comment on their adequacy and the wider issues involved. In this case, I assume—perhaps the Minister can confirm this for the Committee’s benefit—that the big four were consultees. If not them, then who? Perhaps she can also confirm whether there was wider public consultation or consultation with organisations independent of the accountancy profession, which would have been necessary to ensure proper scrutiny of what we are considering—not that we have been given sight of their comments, which is why I have asked her to let us know what they said.”
“I was informed yesterday, by being copied into a letter to one of her ministerial colleagues, about the nature of a consultation on another set of regulations; I was copied in because I was the shadow Minister on that occasion as well. What concerned me about the letter sent to the Minister’s colleague was that the consultee had been instructed—not asked, instructed—by the Department to comment only on the technical content of the regulations and not to advise on whether the regulations would deliver what the Government needed to be delivered in the event of no deal. That is of great concern.”
“I believe I am right in saying that we are dealing here with the arrangements that would be in place in the event of no deal. As ever with the regulations brought before us in these Committees, there is the question of the adequacy of scrutiny and our ability scrutinise properly, given the time available to us, the complexity of what we are being asked to consider and, frankly, the inadequacy of the consultation—in this case, the fact that no public consultation has been carried out. I will ask the Minister to respond in her reply on the nature of the informal consultation on these regulations, who was consulted and what they said in response.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. The importance of accounting standards cannot be overstated. I am sure all members of the Committee understand that it is crucial that we get this right, and that the public, stakeholders, investors and the Government can rely on the accuracy of published accounts. Given the recent public concern over audit and the question of the independence or otherwise of the big four, this topic deserves thorough debate and scrutiny. It is essential that accounts give a true and fair view and, therefore, essential that, whether the standards are national or international, they are delivered in the appropriate way and with the right degree of support, scrutiny and accountability.”
“Earlier, I put to the Minister her Department’s statement to the House of Lords Committee that it was working with the FRC to have the new endorsement board ready in time for EU exit. I take it, from what she just said, that that will not happen. Will she confirm that? Will she also confirm the arrangements for the work that the new endorsement board will undertake once it is set up?”
“The duty for large companies to report how quickly they pay their suppliers is of course welcome—80% of businesses that fail do so as a result of late payments—but to be effective, the new duty to report will need some teeth, such as binding arbitration and fines for persistent offenders. This Government’s use of sanctions against the poorest has been disgraceful, so how about using sanctions against some of the most powerful and making sure that large corporations treat their small business suppliers fairly?”
“Like other Members who have spoken, I have a number of constituents whose businesses were ruined by the actions of the banks. I think this is a much larger-scale problem than the Minister perhaps implied in some of his earlier answers. It is about an imbalance of power in the relationship between the banks and their customers. The banks have had years to provide redress and they have had years of a voluntary system in that regard, so how is a new voluntary tribunal system going to provide the redress the banks need to provide? Surely the time will come when the Minister will need to make this a mandatory system to provide the justice needed by small business customers who were ruined?”
“In the United States, pork is produced using ractopamine, which causes heart disease, and it is not treated for trichinosis, which can lead to stomach upset. The US National Pork Producers Council wants its standards included in the US-UK trade deal, and it has the support of its Government in that demand. This threat to food safety is completely unacceptable, so will the Minister rule out any reduction in food standards in international trade agreements?”
“Last week, the prisons Minister offered to meet the family of Sam Cook, who was murdered by a convicted offender who was released on licence, in a similar case to the one we have just heard about from my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas). They would very much like to meet the Minister. Can the Secretary of State ask his officials to arrange that meeting as soon as possible? They want to speak to the Minister to make sure that no one has to experience what Sam Cook experienced and that the probation service is doing its job to protect the public from offenders who are released on licence and is supervising them properly.”
“It is a pleasure, as ever—but especially at this hour of the morning—to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I start by picking up one of the Minister’s comments. He said that this is business as usual—but if there is one thing that Brexit is not, it is that. We can probably all agree on that, whatever our stance on the subject.”
“Without protection, designers will either have to run the risk of copying throughout the EU27 following disclosure, or simply avoid first disclosure in the UK altogether. Perhaps the Minister can advise on which route the Government think designers should take.”
“After we have left the European Union, designs that are first disclosed in the UK might well be sufficiently protected here, but will receive no unregistered Community design protection in the EU, because we will no longer be members. The AIP’s view is that this would have grave consequences for UK designers: according to a recent survey by Anti Copying In Design, almost 80% of them rely on the unregistered Community design right to protect their designs. The EU is the largest export market for many UK design sectors, contributing over two-thirds of UK furniture manufacturers’ export revenue. Such a loss of reciprocity poses a serious threat to leading industry events such as 100% Design, London Fashion Week and Top Drawer, which creators from all over the world attend in order to reveal new and innovative designs.”
“It would have been very helpful to have that information in front of us; it would have helped to ensure that we were in the best possible position to judge whether we should or should not support the regulations. I hope that the Minister, if he does not already, will soon have a note on what the consultations were, who was consulted and what the responses were. I want to tell the Committee of the key concern raised by the Alliance for Intellectual Property. It is not particularly concerned with the continuing regime in the UK; it is relatively confident that what the Minister has described meets its requirements. Its concern is the lack of reciprocity. If equivalent protection is achieved through the withdrawal Bill, it believes that the design sector will still be gravely at risk without reciprocal protection from the EU27.”
“Can he clarify how that system operates so that the protection is in place? From what he said, it is clearly an important part of intellectual property protection. Perhaps he could give us some clarity on how it operates. As ever, there is the thorny issue of consultation or, to be strictly accurate, the lack of public consultation that we see with the regulations going through Committees every single week. I notice that no formal consultation was carried out, but that stakeholders were asked to give their opinions. Perhaps the Minister can tell us—I cannot find the information anywhere—who was consulted and what their responses were to those informal consultation discussions.”
“I have no reason to doubt him on that, but it will take time, both for the authorities to process the change in arrangements and for businesses to make sure they are covered. I believe there is a nine-month window for businesses to adapt to the new regime—the Minister may wish to correct me on that. Perhaps he could also answer how the Government intend to make sure that everybody has the cover that they need and is aware of the changes that they need to make during that transition period. I have one question for the Minister, the answer to which I did not catch in his opening remarks. Perhaps he can explain how the unregistered Community design system operates and how businesses obtain their protection without having to register for it. I note that there is a three-year period.”
“As ever, it is important to get that point across, as this is another example of costs—albeit the Minister is claiming that they are relatively small —for creating a functioning regime after we leave the European Union. As the sifting Committee said in its report when it recommended that the draft regulations be considered in Committee, “The work of conversion is clearly a major exercise.” That work will involve 700,000 registered Community designs alone. The preliminary estimate is of £375,000, which may appear to be a relatively small amount of money, but that is clearly not without significant amounts of work. The Intellectual Property Office says that it is able to address that and that costs are recovered through fees. The Minister has pointed out that the fees have come down.”
“I think, Mr Hanson, we are in danger of wandering into a slightly different part of the forest. The Minister set out the arguments in favour of creating a system that addresses what will be needed in this country for both registered and unregistered designs to apply in the UK, and I have relatively few concerns about his remarks. However, as always with such regulations, there is the question of whether Opposition Members are in a position to give our full judgment on both the available information and the responses from the technical experts in the sector. I put on the record, again, our concern about our ability to fully scrutinise what we are being asked to support. It is a common problem with regulations, often related to the speed with which they are being pushed through, their detail and technical content, and their importance.”
“The Minister mentioned lower fees in his opening remarks, so perhaps he could link what he said then with the figure of £63,000 cited in the explanatory memorandum. The example that my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington gave about the furniture manufacturer in his constituency demonstrates how important it is that we get these regulations right and have arrangements in place. It is particularly important for designers for whom the EU is a major market; as we have heard, two thirds of designers export to the EU. I would particularly like to hear the Minister’s answer about reciprocal arrangements, and I hope he is also able to answer the other questions that I have asked.”
“Certainly, many small businesses are not always equipped to address the regulations that come to them, so I really want to press the Minister on the impact on our small and medium-sized enterprise community. In paragraph 7.33, there is a reference to “the right to opt out”. Again, what are the Government doing to make sure that businesses are fully aware of the options available to them, which are referred to in that paragraph? I think this is my final question— [Laughter.] I am sure I can find some more if Members want me to, but on balance, I will stick to this one. The memorandum refers to fees of £63,000. Are those fees payable by businesses of all sizes, and is that going to continue to be the case?”
“According to paragraphs 7.17 and 7.27 of the memorandum, 12,000 international trademark applications and 1,000 design applications are estimated to be pending on exit day. How are the Government making sure that all those applying know that they need to file a new application? That point is similar to the earlier questions about making sure that all businesses understand what they need to do. Paragraph 13.3 of the memorandum states that “there is sufficient time for all businesses to familiarise themselves with the changes” before the regulations take effect, but there is a difference between there being time and businesses taking up the option.”
“Can the Minister explain how the system will work for existing rights that are granted by the European Union’s IPO? I am not entirely sure whether that question follows on from that asked by the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, but I think it is similar. If the Minister has not already answered it, perhaps he can pick up the point about ongoing validity for five years. My next question is about paragraph 2.8 of the explanatory memorandum, which references action being taken by EU rights holders and their protections in the UK. My assumption is that those rights holders will be protected in the UK, and that the concern is about that lack of equivalence. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that point, along with the ones about protections of UK designers in the EU.”
“I asked the Minister about consultation. As ever, the approach to impact assessment is limited. Paragraph 13 of the explanatory memorandum discusses regulating small businesses. How well prepared will they be? This picks up on my earlier point on ensuring that all businesses are aware of the changes that will happen and the actions they need to take. Again, the Government have chosen a very narrow interpretation of “impact” in their approach to impact assessment; they are not taking the wider impact on the economy as a whole. As I said on previous occasions, that is regrettable and does not set out the true impact of regulations such as these. That brings me to a number of questions that arise from the commentary in the explanatory memorandum.”
“Using the example of his constituents’ business, my hon. Friend has set out the sector’s exact concerns and the challenge for the Government to ensure protection of our innovative and creative exporters. Given the end of the parallel system to which the Minister referred in his opening remarks, perhaps the Minister can tell us how the Government will provide assurances. What is the state of negotiations on achieving protection in this area in the European Union? We cannot overstate the importance of that protection for businesses such as that of my hon. Friend’s constituents. I hope that there is an answer to that, and that the Minister can give us some assurances. We know that all too often negotiations on the details of post-Brexit arrangements have not gone as well as they need to—I hope that this issue is not one of those.”
“I have heard the line about risking our negotiating position from Ministers before. Over the weekend we heard the US give exactly what its negotiating mandate would be in a trade deal. If the United States can do it, why can’t we?”
“Other Ministers have told us who has been consulted when we have asked these questions. Is there any reason why he is not telling us who was consulted on this occasion? Perhaps he will write to me.”
“The Minister’s answer on that point justifies the concerns raised by the Alliance for Intellectual Property, some of which I listed. He gave great cause for concern about the uncertainty and the differing legal opinions there. Can he give the Committee an indication about the discussions that have already taken place with our EU counterparts on how we achieve a reciprocal arrangement and what estimate the Government have at the moment of how long it will take to reach a system where we can avoid the problem he set out, which is of real concern, over damage being caused to a designer by registering in one jurisdiction and not in any other?”
“The problem is that, whatever deal goes through—and even if we leave without a deal—the same problem applies: that this issue of registering either in the EU and affecting UK rights, or registering in the UK and affecting EU rights, applies. That is the bit that has not been resolved. It is a complete red herring to say that which deal we vote for affects the outcome of these regulations.”
“Will the Home Secretary please take this seriously across Government and address the concerns that have been caused by the scale of the cuts in multiple Departments since 2010?”
“My constituent Sam Cook was stabbed to death a year ago in Liverpool city centre, on the night he was celebrating his 21st birthday. His mum, Gill Radcliffe, asked me to tell the Home Secretary to remember that this is not just a London issue, but a national problem. When he meets the police chief constables in a couple of days’ time, the chief constable of Merseyside police will remind him that the consequence of the scale of cuts in Government funding for Merseyside is that there are now 1,200 fewer police officers keeping our streets safe. He will also know of a 30% cut in probation services. Sam Cook’s killer was on licence, having committed another knife offence, when he killed Sam. The probation service had not given the monitoring of Sam’s killer sufficient attention, which allowed him to kill Sam.”
“My constituent Sam Cook was stabbed to death last year. His killer was on licence having been released after being convicted of a similar knife offence, but the probation officer did not know how to use the IT system, so the monitoring of the killer was not appropriate to the concerns of the probation service. I have no idea how that could possibly happen, and I am sure that the Minister is the same. Will he therefore tell us what processes are in place to ensure that processes are properly carried out, that every member of staff is trained to use the system and that we never again see another young man like Sam Cook killed due to inadequate supervision?”
“Trade by teleport is not a reality, however. I am glad that the Secretary of State has acknowledged the fact that we are on the other side of the world from the Pacific. It is also a fact that he is proposing that we become a nation that is reliant on carbon-pumping trade deals, which is somewhat at odds with the claim in his opening speech that he is going to uphold our climate change obligations.”
“The document is entirely relevant to our deliberations. It refers to mutual recognition agreements with the United States, Australia and New Zealand, and much more besides that is relevant to the debate. I shall take the time to refer to it during my remarks. It is a shame that it was not here earlier, as it would have enabled other Members to have the relevant information. Distance is important. The value of our trading relationship with Ireland is higher than the value of UK trade with Italy or Spain, even though Ireland’s economy is much smaller than that of either Italy or Spain. Members should not just take my word for it; that is the view of the Office for National Statistics. If the Government have their way, we will abandon the deal that we have on our doorstep for a deal—or a series of deals—on the other side of the planet.”
“Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It certainly has been a very thorough debate, and I certainly do not intend to go into the Minister’s allocation of time and will be well within my half of what is remaining; I can certainly confirm that. At the start of the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) raised a point of order. He said that a written ministerial statement on trade continuity under a no-deal scenario was due to be published today—it was listed as No. 4 on the Order Paper—but that it was not available by the start of our deliberations. It had still not been published on the internet by 2.30 pm, but happily the Vote Office very kindly delivered a copy to me at about 2.10 pm, which was some time after the Front-Bench speeches to which you have just referred, Madam Deputy Speaker.”
“Businesses that want certainty had to change from WTO arrangements with Japan, to which the statement refers, to EU-Japan agreement arrangements at the start of this year. Presumably, they will now have to change back to us trading with Japan through the WTO, which again is mentioned in the statement, and then, once agreed, to UK-Japan bilateral agreement arrangements. That is far from a demonstration of certainty for business, but that is what the written statement appears to confirm, which prompts the question of why there was a delay in the appearance of the missing information.”
“What is going to replace the current arrangements through the Council of Ministers, the international trade committee of the European Parliament, the European Parliament itself, and our own European Scrutiny Committee? I note that the written ministerial statement refers to “full parliamentary scrutiny processes to ratify some UK-third country agreements”, so what are those processes? Do they represent full scrutiny, or are they the Henry VIII powers that the Secretary of State advocated in the Trade Bill, which mean an absence of any meaningful scrutiny of measures, especially given the inability to influence their contents? The same point applies to the new agreements referred to in this debate.”
“Those of our constituents who have written to us with their concerns about the threat of the privatisation of the national health service as a result of the negotiation of deals—the subjects of which have been covered in this debate—are right to be concerned, given the contents of the CETA document and the legal opinions on it. They are right to raise those concerns, as was my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist) earlier. Turning to the opportunities to scrutinise the negotiation of these deals, I wonder whether the Minister could pick up on the thread of the debate about whether this is our one and only opportunity to do that or whether there will be further chances for Members of Parliament to debate and challenge the mandate for negotiation and then to scrutinise any proposals put forward during the negotiations.”
“Article 31 of the Vienna convention states that treaties “shall be interpreted in good faith in accordance with the ordinary meaning to be given to the terms of the treaty in their context and in the light of its object and purpose.” However, if there is “any conflict or confusion between CETA’s plain wording and the instrument, it is CETA’s text that prevails…The critical point is that while the parties retain the right to regulate, they must do so in conformity with their CETA obligations and commitments.” Those are the words of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. The interpretive instrument that the Secretary of State referred to does not overrule the main CETA documents.”
“What an absurd intervention—but we have come to expect nothing less from the Secretary of State. Of course we should have trade around the world, but we should not be prioritising trade on the far side of the world over trade on our own doorstep. He knows that only too well. That has been the theme of this debate. The Secretary of State quoted the interpretive instrument in CETA. As the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) mentioned, the Canadians have the highest use of investor-state dispute settlement arrangements anywhere in the world, so they have form when it comes to the use of such systems. The problem is that the instrument does not alter, let alone override, the text of CETA.”
“The deal ensures frictionless trade and access to the single market, as well as access to 11% of the rest of our trade through deals with 70 or so further countries, but as the written ministerial statement shows, only six new trade deals have been signed so far, and we leave the EU at the end of March. I was startled to find out that neither the Defence Secretary nor the International Trade Secretary has learned the basics of diplomacy. Domestic sabre rattling on China, which we assume is part of the Defence Secretary’s leadership campaign, has jeopardised talks with China, while the International Trade Secretary has managed to insult the Japanese. [ Interruption. ] Excuse me. I think the International Trade Secretary had something to say to me there.”
“He also mentioned the importance of looking after our own street first and referred to prioritising a trade deal with the EU before looking for deals on the other side of the world. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) spoke about landscape, cars and the environment, describing the contrast between agriculture in the UK and the US and the difficulties facing our farmers in surviving and competing in the trade world that the Secretary of State envisages. She made a good point about sustainability and the importance of the rural environment, and she was right to cite the desire of much of industry, across sectors, for a customs union to support frictionless trade. We have a trade deal, which represents 48% of our trade, on our doorstep.”
“Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) spoke of the frequency of the legal action being taken by Canadian companies, which was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Dundee East. She also advocated greater regional and national engagement in scrutiny and said we should learn from international good practice, and I agree. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) also said that we should learn from other countries. When our own Government say that they cannot give us information because it is confidential and would affect delicate negotiations, it is odd that we can find out what is going on from the other countries involved.”
“My hon. Friend makes much the same point that my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North and I made when the Trade Bill was in Committee last year about the importance of full scrutiny and a thorough process that goes way beyond the Henry VIII powers that the Secretary of State has been so keen to confer upon himself for the scrutiny of such agreements. My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Dr Drew) makes an interesting point about the SIs and the completely inadequate no-deal planning, but that is a discussion for another time, although I share his concern about the pressure being put on Members to vote for the Prime Minister’s bad deal, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North described it earlier. My hon.”
“We are party to a trade agreement with Japan through our membership of the European Union, and the deal has not prevented the disinvestment of Japanese companies such as Honda and Nissan. “The idea that Brexit uncertainty is irrelevant to this is fanciful. How are Honda supposed to calculate the costs and benefits of staying in the UK in the overall global context against such lack of clarity on the future terms of trade?” Those are not my words but the words of Sir David Warren, the former UK ambassador to Japan.”
“Was he? That is very kind of him. In 2017, a number of Australian academics warned of the danger that “Australia’s interests get caught up in the possibly unrealistic worldview of the Brexiteers and thus Australia becomes collateral damage of…British politics.” Why might they say that with this Secretary of State in charge? In the real world, my constituents who put their goods on a ship at the port of Liverpool today do not know whether the ship will be able to dock in Tokyo on 30 March and what arrangements will be in place. They want the Government to show that they understand diplomacy, and they want them to avoid causing offence in delicate trade negotiations. This week, in Swindon, we have seen what is happening in the real world: real workers’ jobs going—3,500 of them—and real communities affected.”
“As my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North was just saying to me, Honda’s management are far too well-mannered to say these things in public, but a former ambassador will tell it as it is, and I would have thought the Secretary of State wanted to take the advice of somebody with Sir David Warren’s experience.”
“The leave campaign pushed the point rather hard about Turkey’s accession to the EU. My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman)—this is the bigger point about the Secretary of State’s involvement—spoke about the failure to ensure, when the EU-Japan deal was negotiated, that there was support for the foreign direct investment and its critical place in our car industry, whether at Honda or Nissan. The Secretary of State’s answer is that he will not change his approach in the future trade deals he negotiates once we have left the EU. That is a pretty grim predictor of what is going to happen under this Secretary of State and his colleagues in their support—or rather lack of it—for our industry, our manufacturing industry and our car industry in particular.”
“The difficulties in renegotiating the deals with our partners have been laid bare in recent weeks by the failure of the International Trade Secretary to make progress on more than a handful of such deals, quite apart from the uncertainty over our future trading relationship with the EU. He wants to align with lower standards from the US.”
“We have come to an interesting point, with Labour Members citing Margaret Thatcher and the fact that she founded the single market of the European Union to demonstrate just how wrong the current Government, who claim her inheritance, are in their international trade policy. I have taken a number of interventions and I am very cognisant of your strictures for me to keep things to a minimum, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I was saying, the alternative is to deliver certainty. That alternative can come with a new customs union and a deal with the single market on regulations, standards and common institutions that protects our trade with the EU and with our partners around the world.”
“In particular, I hope he will address whether adequate protection is in place for our agriculture, car industry and other manufacturing sectors and whether there will be further opportunity to scrutinise international trade agreements and their preparation with the US, Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific rim. I thank my colleagues for their contributions to the debate. I look forward to scrutinising the Government in the coming months on these points, but the fact that only five roll-over deals have been completed so far does not bode well under this Secretary of State and his ministerial team. [Interruption.]”