Bill Esterson
MP for Sefton Central · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the Prime Minister said on Tuesday, our energy supply and our energy security are not a question of having either oil and gas, or renewables; they are about both. It is a great pity that proper process was not followed in 2022 or 2023. [ Interruption.”
“I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to continuing Britain’s global leadership on climate action, including by going to COP31. I also welcome his focus on breathing space for people and businesses, but, as he said, it will take a lot more than that to deliver the growth and reindustrialisation that he is so committed to.”
“Last week the Committee heard from Claire Dykta, the director of strategy and policy at NESO, who told us: “Operational decisions are taken by authorised, trained personnel only.” Her comments were confirmed by Alastair Martin, the chief strategy officer at Flexitricity, who, in the same session, said: “I do not think the idea that the he…”
“As the Minister has just said, new nuclear is essential for energy security. It is also essential as an alternative career for workers in oil and gas.”
“Paul and Susan Robinson each worked for the Health and Safety Executive for more than 40 years. They have not been able to plan for their retirement since finishing work last year; they have been living off their savings and the small loan that they have had. They are typical of the dozens of constituents who have contacted me.”
“Hudson primary school in my constituency does a brilliant job. It is a family hub, it specialises in support for children with SEND and autism, and it has a nursery, but its building, which is 80 years old, suffers from a high water table that brings damp, mould and structural problems for the building—as does occasional flooding.”
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“GC207-GC208.] I think it was President Wilson in the early part of the last century who said that, but it is no less effective when quoted by Lord O’Neill. Where is the “big stick” in the small business commissioner’s role?”
“The respondent may fear that they would attract unwanted publicity if matters were published in this way, but if the respondent has no concerns that they have done anything wrong and there is nothing they need to put right, they should have no anxiety about this, and that could be another way of applying pressure to get something resolved.” Or, as Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan said rather more bluntly: “It offers to put teeth into the legislation, and I think it is useful for us to get a greater degree of accountability—a bit of an edge…the softly-softly approach is okay, but it should be, ‘Walk quietly, but carry a big stick’.” —[ Official Report, House of Lords, 28 October 2015; Vol. 765, c.”
“Indeed, I would have thought that most issues should be encouraged towards resolution before going into any kind of formal complaints scheme or procedure.” He was making the argument for mediation’s being a direct part of the small business commissioner’s remit, as we discussed on Tuesday. He continued: “To encourage that process and to provide an incentive to settle matters quickly and informally, some pressure should be applied. Once we have entered into the formal complaints scheme or procedure, a report would then be published and the respondent would be named.”
“How will it happen without publishing every unresolved complaint? When direct approaches have not worked, what will be the small business commissioner’s role in making that difference in improving late payment practice in individual and general cases? The comments made by Lord Stoneham when he moved the amendment in the other place are worth considering: “we are again seeking more effective powers and oomph for the Small Business Commissioner. We are assuming that if the complaints scheme is entered into, there will be a period before the initial approach is made for some sort of opportunity for conciliation.”
“I think that a big part of the answer will be the SBC’s ability to name and shame.” —[ Official Report , 2 February 2016; Vol. 605, c. 829-30.] The Minister accepted that on Tuesday. The hon. Member for Huntingdon went on to ask the Minister to explain how the legislation, as it stands, will allow for naming and shaming, and I repeat that request. The amendment, originally moved in the other place, would introduce a stark solution: that every complaint will be published. I trust that the Minister appreciates that this is a probing amendment, our intention being to continue exploring the idea of how exactly the presence of the small business commissioner will encourage good payment practice when phone calls to chief executives and signposting to small businesses do not achieve the intended result.”
“Of course, that has nothing to do with why I said any of that. Like the amendments we moved on Tuesday, amendment 55 would preserve anonymity for a complainant. The amendment would introduce the threat of naming and shaming large companies that rely on the unwillingness of their suppliers to come forward as a means of paying their suppliers late. The need for naming and shaming was raised by the Minister’s colleague, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), on Second Reading: “On the complaints side, the SBC can demand and order little. For example, the commissioner will not be able to order the production of documents from a company that has been complained about. Given the lack of hard powers for the SBC, the question is how effective they will be.”
“However, if we get to the point where this is a voluntary approach in the reports that the commissioner publishes, then I hope that the commissioner and the Minister will think again at that stage. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment , by leave, withdrawn. Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 7 Scheme regulations”
“Taken as a package, I think it is in the category of areas where, as the office develops, we may need to come back and consider again how the commissioner is able to work, and whether, if things are not going well enough, such an approach is needed. I mentioned mediation and its effectiveness in avoiding the need for punitive action, including naming and shaming, which could be quite difficult. Naming and shaming is one of those areas where it could cause problems for the ongoing business relationship between a small business and its customers. Ideally, we want not to be in the position where there have to be reports about individual cases of late payment.”
“As ever, it is very important for us to be as accurate as we can in our comments. I should make a correction to what I said when I was testing the Committee on American history: as I am sure everyone knew, it was of course Teddy Roosevelt who made the comment about walking softly and carrying a big stick. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West for his prompting on that point. I take on board the Minister’s comments about credibility, the fear of not responding, and the commissioner’s ability to ensure that a chief executive will take the phone call and that the matters will be addressed down the chain. The amendment is about situations where that does not happen.”
“If a complaint comes to the small business commissioner, let them decide whether they will investigate it, instead of there being a prescriptive approach that may tie the commissioner’s hands over an issue that they might like to run with. Amendment 56 would allow them to be the arbiter of whether another complaints handling body has given the matter sufficient consideration.”
“The amendment would allow the small business commissioner to consider something that it had not been possible properly and fully, in the opinion of the commissioner, to consider elsewhere, even if, as far as the other body or ombudsman was concerned, it had been considered. We are concerned that, under the current Bill, some complaints could fall through the gaps. The Minister has talked a number of times about the need for flexibility for the commissioner. That is the reason that she has given for opposing or asking us to withdraw a number of our amendments, which would have laid out the small business commissioner’s functions in greater detail and widened the remit considerably. We are now asking for that flexibility.”
“We believe that, to do the job properly, the commissioner needs to have much more flexibility about the issues that they investigate. Amendment 56 would remove from regulations the power to dismiss a complaint that has previously been considered by another organisation. The logic is fairly simple. We hope that the small business commissioner will offer a markedly different function from existing regulators and ombudsmen. What would be the point of creating the office if that were not the case? It does not seem right automatically to discount complaints just because they have been looked at by another complaints handling body. It may be that the complaint process took too long under the other body or that the ombudsman found that it fell outside their scope.”
“I beg to move amendment 56, in clause 7, page 7, line 24, leave out paragraph (vii) This amendment would remove from regulations the power to dismiss a complaint which the Commissioner considers has previously been considered under the complaints scheme or by another complaints-handling body, ombudsman or regulator. The amendment would remove from regulations the power to dismiss a complaint that the commissioner considers has previously been considered under the complaints scheme or by another complaints handling body, ombudsman or regulator. It is about the nature of the complaints that the commissioner will deal with. On Tuesday, by means of a number of groups of amendments, we discussed our concerns about narrowness of remit, given how the small business commissioner’s office is set up.”
“I take on board the Minister’s comments and I remind her that we are as keen for flexibility as she is. It is important to discuss these matters and to get her comments on the record. She has now made her comments and I am sure that, as the office of the commissioner develops, her words will be an important reminder of exactly what is intended and exactly how the commissioner should work. My understanding of the way in which legislation is crafted is that the Minister’s comments in Committee have legal standing. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 9 Annual report”
“I beg to move amendment 58, in clause 9, page 8, line 42, at end insert— “(d) outlines a summary of relevant complaints made by— (i) small businesses against other businesses and (ii) small businesses against government departments. (1A) In subsection (1)(d) “relevant complaint” has the same meaning at subsections 4(3) and (4)” This amendment would require the Small Business Commissioner’s Annual Report to outline complaints made by small businesses against other businesses and against Government departments.”
“Will the Minister clarify whether that will be in the scope of the small business commissioner? I have raised that point with her before and I am not entirely sure that I have had a clear answer. Perhaps she will address that either now or at the end.”
“The point is that some of the biggest contracts that a small business gets in the private sector can be part of a chain that leads back to Government Departments, and we want the commissioner to be able to name and shame chronic late payers in the annual report. I know that the Minister agrees with my point about naming and shaming. We also want the small business commissioner to offer something of a strategic approach—an overview of problems that run through major supply chains—in the annual reports. The fact is that supply chains are often a muddle of private and public sectors, and big business and Government Departments. A line of investigation might not start with a complaint against the public authority, but it might implicate the public authority as part of the chain.”
“We talk about the 33 largest suppliers to the Government, but there is often a chain of a number of suppliers. Of the 18 suppliers that are signed up to the code, how many of their suppliers are signed up to that same code? There are relatively large businesses, which may also be late payers, in the middle of supply chains, and in a supply chain of three, four or five companies, the smallest firms at the end of the chain are often the ones that bear the brunt. The amendment is important because it is not just a case of saying that the small business commissioner should be able to report on the complaints of small businesses against Government Departments.”
“They are expected to pay their suppliers in good time; the target is to pay within five working days and that is a good standard. However, only 18 of the Government’s 33 biggest suppliers, all of which are major businesses, are signatories of the code. That means that 15 major suppliers are not signed up to the prompt payment code. As a result, it is quite likely that smaller suppliers in the supply chain—particularly of those 15 that have not signed up to the code—are victims of late payments in a contract that, ultimately, comes from the Government. That includes the issue of the construction sector and cash retention, which we discussed on Tuesday. The situation is complicated further still with contracts of the size we are considering.”
“Small businesses that face the problem of late payments do so in the public sector and in the private sector, and it is only right that the annual reports reflect where the complaints come from and who the sources of the late payments are. The issue of late payments is one of the most crippling faced by small businesses. It seems to us and to small business organisations that have commented on the provisions that it is arbitrary to narrow down and attack only one part of the problem by considering only the private sector—and the larger element of the private sector, at that. The amendment reflects the crossover between Government Departments and big business when it comes to late payments. Government Departments sign the prompt payment code.”
“Amendments 58 and 59 relate to the issue of the commissioner’s annual report. We ask for the report to include complaints made by Government Departments, which is consistent with other points we have made in earlier amendments. We also ask that the commissioner, rather than the Secretary of State, reports directly to Parliament. We have called for the remit of the small business commissioner’s work to be widened in a number of ways, but the inclusion of the public sector is one of the most important elements of our request, hence amendment 58. The importance of including complaints made by Government Departments boils down to the expectation of what small businesses want and expect from the small business commissioner.”
“Without giving the small business commissioner that authority in their annual reports, we are in danger of giving small businesses nothing more than a sympathetic ear.”
“It is able to testify on behalf of small businesses when legislation is being debated. We have to ensure that the small business commissioner is able to include in their report those points that make a difference to policy making and to small businesses. Whether this is through a nationwide survey that challenges supply chains ranging across the public and private sector; through a trend in small business complaints the small business commissioner has spotted over the year; or through their first-hand expertise on the concerns of small businesses that the small business commissioner wants to lay before policy makers; we have to give them the authority and opportunity to present the information that small businesses need us to see.”
“It seems that the Australians appreciate, more than this Government, the concern that reporting just will not happen if the small business commissioner is toothless. Under the provisions of the Bill, the commissioner will be toothless because there is nowhere for them to take their findings, and the reliance—or, as we discussed on Tuesday, dependence—on the Secretary of State gives rise to concerns that reporting will just not happen. The American Small Business Administration works strategically across government and ensures the views of small businesses and entrepreneurs are better heard in policy making. It gives small businesses a voice in government. The Small Business Administration reviews congressional legislation and conducts nationwide studies on the impact of regulation on small businesses.”
“It would send a message to more than 5 million businesses that when they have a complaint, they will have someone to communicate it to. Crucially, that person will have the authority to take the complaint all the way to Government and to Parliament, hence amendment 59. There are two very different models on offer that provide examples to follow: the Australian small business commissioner and the American Small Business Administration. What they have in common is that they provide a vehicle for the concerns of small businesses to reach the very highest level. The Australian small business commissioner reports directly to the Australian Parliament and can submit special reports directly to Parliament whenever they feel it appropriate. What we are asking for is much simpler, because it is an annual report to Parliament.”
“We want the small business commissioner to follow an investigation to wherever it leads. If it leads to the shortcomings of Government Departments’ enforcement of the prompt payment code, their slip-ups on paper-based invoices that lead them to be late payers, their dealings with a company that is a major late payer and is benefiting somewhere down the supply chain from taxpayers’ money, we want to know about it in the annual report. Covering those complaints in the small business commissioner’s annual report would say as much about how we view the small business commissioner as it would about what we want the report to include. Amendment 58 is a statement of intent that we would give the small business commissioner a certain standing.”
“While I intervene, the Minister might want to get another copy of the note. The question we were trying to get answered was what happens when the public sector is the ultimate end of the chain and something goes wrong in that chain. Will the commissioner have the opportunity to investigate all the way to the public sector and not just the private sector elements of the problems with late payment? It could be the second, third, fourth or even fifth stage of the supply chain. I hope I have given the Minister long enough to get her notes.”
“The more the Minister says the words “mystery” and “shopper” together, the more I think her listeners suspend belief in the effectiveness of the scheme. As I think I said on Tuesday, I am familiar with mystery shopper schemes in the private sector and they can be effective, but the idea is not inspiring confidence.”
“She is now saying, with reference to the present group of amendments, as she did on Tuesday on a similar set of amendments, that the commissioner cannot investigate the public sector. Following the logic of what she said about the previous group, the commissioner should really investigate the public sector.”
“Given that we are setting up an office called the small business commissioner, and that often it is small businesses that are the victims of late payment in the relevant situations, we need the commissioner to be able to consider public sector involvement all through the chain. The Minister said, as we discussed on Tuesday, that complaints are being dealt with elsewhere in a number of ways, but it is clear that that is not happening sufficiently well at the moment, and that a lot more work is needed. In discussion of the amendments on the annual report, the Minister said we should not restrict the small business commissioner by insisting they could not do something in that case. I think that is a fair representation of what she said.”
“I hear what the Minister says. I am afraid that, to anyone listening to our deliberations, the way hon. Members have laughed several times at the description would suggest that confidence may be lacking in whether the scheme will be as effective as it needs to be. There might be work to be done there. The point about the supply chain is that if only 18 out of 33 major suppliers are signed up to the prompt payment code, and the Government are unable to make that 33 out of 33, and if Departments do not make sure that late payment is not a problem throughout the supply chain, something will have to change.”
“Fundamentally, it is important to consider the private and the public sectors when thinking about how an economy operates and how contracts and payments are made. The Government are resisting this point, and we may well come back to it once the commissioner is up and running. We tested the Committee’s opinion on the inclusion of the public sector earlier and I do not feel the need to test it again. I think we know what the Committee as a whole thinks of this. With those remarks, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 10 Review of Commissioner’s performance”
“I am glad that the Minister made such a long intervention. We are going to talk about the relationship with Government Departments when we discuss my next amendment. The problem is that we do not accept that there should be this restriction because of the relationship between the public sector and business and the way that the supply chains operate. The Government do not agree. We have a profound disagreement on this point. We base our evidence on what goes on elsewhere in the world—in Australia and America—with very successful systems, which very much have a wider remit that ensures the commissioner, or the Small Business Administration in the case of America, can investigate and report on the activities, operations and behaviours of the public sector in the way it deals with its suppliers, as well as the private sector.”
“We do not doubt that he or she will have an open line of communication with the Business Secretary and his or her team. If we are to effect real change, the commissioner needs a seat at the table right across Government Departments. Whether they come from the Cabinet Office, the Treasury, the Department for Communities and Local Government or any other Department, policy making and regulations have a tangible impact on small businesses. Amendment 60 will make sure that the small business commissioner is a part of this process, not confined to one Department. It seeks to ensure all the benefits to small business, jobs and the wider economy that we should all have in mind as we seek to develop this legislation and create the office of the small business commissioner.”
“Based on the best examples from around the world, a UK Small Business Administration would create a step change in the opportunities for small businesses from government procurement and improve the quality of support available, operating along a proper British Investment Bank and a network of regional banks to ensure that start-ups and established firms can access the finance they need”. Amendment 60 joins up the complaints from small businesses that the commissioner will receive and makes sure that this is factored into the implementation and development of regulations and Government policies. We have worded this carefully. We are not talking about making sure that the small business commissioner only has a seat at the table with the Department sponsoring them—they already have that, by definition.”
“Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) said, “So Britain can grow its way out of the cost of living crisis and build a balanced recovery built to last, we need to do all we can to help our small businesses grow, create new jobs and meet their aspirations. We need government to be a better servant—and customer—of our small businesses and to make sure that entrepreneurs’ voices are heard at the top table. A UK Small Business Administration is necessary to realising this ambition.”
“Amendment 60 simply makes sure that when we set up the small business commissioner here, we will give them a clear mechanism to work strategically across Government to ensure the voices of small businesses and entrepreneurs are better heard in policy making. Before last year’s general election, Labour said we would create a UK version of the US Small Business Administration, which would concentrate all business support and policy in one organisation. At the Federation of Small Businesses conference at the start of 2015, the then shadow Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon.”
“Secondly, having a base in the federal Government gives it a permanent, independent voice with which to channel concerns to the highest level of government. Thirdly, as the watchdog for the Regulatory Flexibility Act, it is in a position to link its research and advocacy with an effective mechanism to bring small business concerns into the regulatory process. It has a finger on the pulse of small business concerns and a seat at the table for regulation and policy making. This is what we are trying to achieve with amendment 60. By looking at the example of the US Small Business Administration, we see that the measure is entirely possible and can be used to great effect.”
“In addition to the signposting functions, which are very much a part of the Small Business Administration’s functions that the Government have chosen to adopt, the United States has a whole department devoted to giving small businesses a voice in government. The US Small Business Administration’s Office of Advocacy advances the views of small businesses before Congress, the White House, the federal agencies, the federal courts and state policy makers. It has a three-pronged approach. First, it provides a nationwide source of small business statistics, making it the point of reference for policy makers on the impact that Government regulation and legislation are having in the small business community —on its most pressing concerns—and up-to-date frontline feedback on the challenges it faces from one year to the next.”
“The Minister just started to talk about relationships with Ministers, and this amendment is about the small business commissioner working with all parts of Government—including, but not limited to, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills—to ensure that Government, their agencies, and all connected with the Government can be included in understanding what comes from the commissioner as a result of their relationship with small business when it comes to legislation and administration. The amendment aims to help small business, and to help Government get their relationship with and the requirements of small business right as far as possible. It is drawn from a fundamental part of what the US Small Business Administration does.”
“I beg to move amendment 60, in clause 10, page 9, line 26, at end insert— ‘(7) The Commissioner may assist the Government, including its agencies, to develop legislation, procedures and administration that provide alternative ways in which small businesses can comply with the requirements of the legislation, procedures and administration.’ This amendment would allow the Small Business Commissioner to assist other parts of Government, including the Secretary of State to develop procedures and processes.”
“Again, perhaps this can evolve over time. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 14 Extension of target to provisions made by regulators”
“Government action and legislation have a profound impact on business, on the economy, on business relationships and on businesses being paid on time. That is why it is important that the Government are lobbied and listen to the lobbying. Along with the FSB, the Institute of Directors, the British Chambers of Commerce, the CBI, a range of excellent trade organisations and many individual businesses have an important role to play and have good relationships with Government Departments, Ministers, and Members of Parliament, whether from the Government or Opposition. There is a lot to be said for the small business commissioner’s having a formal role and relationship with all Government Departments, given the important way in which small business operates in this country and how it contributes to a successful and thriving economy.”
“Perhaps the Minister will reflect on that interesting comment and come back on Report with some of the amendments proposed by the FSB and debated here over the past few days as well as in the Grand Committee and on Report in the Lords. The Minister said that she does not want the small business commissioner sitting in meetings all day when the challenges of late payment need addressing. I completely agree. She will have noticed that I described how the US system operates: a whole department, the Office of Advocacy, is devoted to the relationship with Government, doing the kind of work that I indicated would be beneficial. That is the sort of system that would achieve what amendment 60 proposes.”
“Like the Minister, I have a high regard for the Federation of Small Businesses and I have a good relationship with many of its officers. John Allan, the national chairman, lives in a constituency neighbouring mine. He is a fine man and has been a strong advocate for the organisation in his time in post, as have many other officers. One of the interesting things about the Minister’s comment on the FSB is that the organisation wants many of the amendments that we have tabled in Committee and were tabled in the Lords. If the Government were actually listening to, working with and acting on the recommendations of the FSB, perhaps they would have accepted more of those amendments or included them in the draft legislation.”
“I beg to move amendment 61, in clause 14, page 12, line 6, at end insert— ‘(1A) In subsection (2), after “means” insert”— (a) all regulatory provisions made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, (b) regulatory provisions made by statutory instrument which are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure in both Houses of Parliament, and”” The amendment would require the Government’s business impact target to cover the impact of EU Regulations or regulatory provisions made my statutory instruments which are subject to the affirmative procedure.”
“While the Government have not been providing the reports, the Regulatory Policy Committee has. The committee found that, of 13 recent assessments, 10 showed increases in the overall cost of regulation. The Minister will tell us later that the Government have reduced the cost of regulation by some astronomical amount; she will probably cite a figure of £10 billion.”
“I cannot see an answer to that question anywhere in Hansard ; I apologise if I have missed it. Can the Minister tell me why the biannual statements stopped? Amendments 62 and 64 deal with two important points on regulation that are too often overlooked: honesty and accountability. Amendment 62 suggests having a warts-and-all tally of regulations in the business impact target. It specifically calls for both a nominal component to give an update on the number of regulations, and a monetary component that tots up the total cost to businesses of the regulations. Amendment 64 ensures that, when we publish the reports, there is a chain of accountability so that everybody knows who has approved a new regulation and who is responsible for it. The reason for amendment 62 is simple.”
“We now move away from discussing the creation of the small business commissioner to consider some of the wider aspects of the Bill. This group of amendments looks at the impact target. I will start with amendments 62 and 64. The Government used to publish a twice-yearly statement of regulations. It might have been a bit of a blunt instrument because the relative impact of these regulations can vary enormously. However, it was a simple mechanism to ensure that the Government were publishing a tally of new regulations that had come into force during the reporting period. Lord Stevenson of Balmacara noted in Grand Committee that publication of the statements had stopped since the general election, and he asked Baroness Neville-Rolfe to find out why.”
“Many regulations come from the European Union, the mention of which will cause Government Members to start to—”