Bill Esterson
MP for Sefton Central · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the Prime Minister said on Tuesday, our energy supply and our energy security are not a question of having either oil and gas, or renewables; they are about both. It is a great pity that proper process was not followed in 2022 or 2023. [ Interruption.”
“I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to continuing Britain’s global leadership on climate action, including by going to COP31. I also welcome his focus on breathing space for people and businesses, but, as he said, it will take a lot more than that to deliver the growth and reindustrialisation that he is so committed to.”
“Last week the Committee heard from Claire Dykta, the director of strategy and policy at NESO, who told us: “Operational decisions are taken by authorised, trained personnel only.” Her comments were confirmed by Alastair Martin, the chief strategy officer at Flexitricity, who, in the same session, said: “I do not think the idea that the he…”
“As the Minister has just said, new nuclear is essential for energy security. It is also essential as an alternative career for workers in oil and gas.”
“Paul and Susan Robinson each worked for the Health and Safety Executive for more than 40 years. They have not been able to plan for their retirement since finishing work last year; they have been living off their savings and the small loan that they have had. They are typical of the dozens of constituents who have contacted me.”
“Hudson primary school in my constituency does a brilliant job. It is a family hub, it specialises in support for children with SEND and autism, and it has a nursery, but its building, which is 80 years old, suffers from a high water table that brings damp, mould and structural problems for the building—as does occasional flooding.”
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“How many local shop keepers have good advisers and mentors to help them set up and support them over the years? Who is there to advise independent bookshops on how to make the most of the internet? Where is the support for small shops setting up online trading to help them grow and compete with the big players, despite their not having much cash to invest in a website? It can be done, as I discovered when I visited my constituent Helen Flynn at her shop, Gentle Cosmetics. Helen has both a shop and an internet presence. More retailers could do both, but they need advice and support. National Government have a role to play through the taxation and planning systems. The Government claim that they have made life easier by changes in planning, but whether independent retailers have benefited or high streets have been revived is another matter.”
“A first step to be requested is a full revaluation of the rates. Big retailers have many advantages, because of economies of scale, however, so a reform of the rating system is one way in which smaller retailers could be given an advantage to balance their lack of economies of scale. In the autumn statement, the Government announced business rates support for retailers, and my party is committed to a cut followed by a freeze in business rates. The reality, however, is that small retailers need us all to go further; as the NFRN points out, those are all short-term measures. In some countries, business taxes are collected using a local sales tax. That is only one possible option, although no doubt the Treasury has reasons for rejecting such an approach—it usually does.”
“One retailer from Crosby told me that small businesses need help with bigger rate relief, as they find their rates crippling. Business rates date from a time when retailers had to have a premises and when land and property values were easy to predict. It is a system from another time, for another time—a time before out-of-town shopping centres, dominant national chains and the internet. That is why so many people are calling for a reform of the system to reflect the reality of retailing and business in general. Amazon can sell books online and pay no tax on the profits generated in this country, and large retailers can set up shop on low-rated land. Local shops need to be where people will go, which generally means high street sites that are often expensive in terms of rent and rates.”
“Such stores are close to independent retailers and a third of NFRN members have seen a local or metro-style shop open near them in the last year alone. Often, little consideration is given to the impact on existing retail outlets. Crosby village centre is very run down, like many town centres and high streets around the country, and the Sainsbury store in the village centre is the biggest attraction for visitors. I am optimistic that in the coming years a master plan for Crosby will be produced, but Sainsbury has to be part of that plan. The village desperately needs a complete overhaul, but this needs to be in partnership with the independent retailers. The No. 1 issue raised by independent retailers is business rates.”
“Down the road from Formby is Crosby, where Tesco now has two convenience stores in addition to a medium-sized Sainsbury in the village centre. Plans are being made for a further convenience store in College road in Crosby, near the existing Tesco and next to an existing Co-op. Plans for a further convenience store from a national supermarket chain have caused concern among local shopkeepers. The National Federation of Retail Newsagents represents 16,000 independent news and convenience stores. The NFRN tells me: “One of the biggest threats to independent news and convenience retailers has been the rapid growth of the supermarket sector.” Tesco has more than 1,500 small stores, while Sainsbury has 594, according to The Daily Telegraph .”
“I have two town teams in my constituency, in Crosby and in Maghull. In Maghull, the town team and the town council were instrumental in opening pop-up shops in an empty unit, which is a similar approach to that described by the hon. Lady. What she says is important. E-commerce is up from around 2% of sales in 2007 to around 10% in 2013. Internet shopping offers independent retailers the opportunity to compete on a more level playing field with larger retailers, because the cost of overheads is massively reduced, but recognised brands still have an advantage in the online environment. In addition, footfall in town centres is reduced by internet shopping, meaning that independent retailers with a physical presence see less through traffic and fewer potential customers.”
“Before the Minister moves away from business rates, does he recognise the calls from a significant number of business organisations and individual businesses for a complete overhaul of the business rates systems? Bearing in mind my comment about business rates being from another time, what are his views on that issue?”
“Children in care are some of our most vulnerable young people, yet far too many end up in prison due to a lack of support when they leave care. Will the Minister tell us what work he is doing with colleagues in other Departments to support care leavers, and to reduce the number of young people who turn to crime, both while in care and when they have left care?”
“A number of homes in my constituency were flooded once the brooks stopped being cleared. What confidence can my constituents have that their homes will not be flooded again, given the scale of the cuts in spending on flood protection that have taken place under this Government?”
“The hon. Gentleman is calling for research into this subject, but he will remember that the Education Committee’s report, “Great Teachers”, urged the Government, as a matter of importance, to undertake such research. I am not aware of their having carried it out. Will he take this opportunity to repeat that request to the Secretary of State?”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) talked about London Challenge and the huge success that happened right across London. Does my right hon. Friend agree that one way of addressing the problems in Wolverhampton would be to have that whole system and a thorough investment in skills?”
“Those skills identified by our international competitors, Ofsted, McKinsey and our children need to be developed. To make the most of those skills, teachers need ongoing support and development, and that is the point of tonight’s motion.”
“They will be people who inspire, who develop a strong sense of what students can do and have no limits in terms of their expectations of students.” During its inquiry into teaching, the Education Select Committee took evidence from children who told us that the ability to make lessons engaging and innovative and to keep discipline in the classroom were priorities. In the 2007 study, “How the world’s best-performing school systems came out on top”, McKinsey found that “a high overall level of literacy and numeracy, strong interpersonal and communication skills, a willingness to learn, and the motivation to teach” were pre-identified characteristics used in successful education systems around the world for the recruitment of teachers.”
“The most successful education systems, from the far east to Scandinavia, are those where teaching has the highest status as a profession. South Korea recruits from its top 5% of graduates and Finland from the top 10%, and both have demanding initial teacher education programmes, completion of which is required for entry into the profession. So why not in this country? According to Ofsted, an “outstanding teacher generally has exceptionally strong subject knowledge and exceptionally good interactions with students and children, which will enable them to demonstrate their learning and build on their learning. They will challenge the youngster to extend their thinking to go way beyond the normal yes/no answer.”
“Subject knowledge is essential to the teaching of a subject, but it is not nearly enough. I told the House earlier what Ofsted had said, what McKinsey had found, and what children have said that they want. All the evidence points in the same direction: those who want to be teachers need to be trained properly. Their training must ensure that they understand how to teach and how to enable children to learn, and—as most teachers tell me—it should continue, as an element of their ongoing desire to do the best that they can for the benefit of our children.”
“Good leaders in schools can support unsatisfactory teachers and help them to become good, and those same leaders can inspire good teachers to become outstanding. Teachers have told me that they should continue to work on their skills but that the profession should be driving the improvements, rather than having them imposed on it. Of course, that makes sense. If we help teachers to continue to develop throughout their careers, they are more likely to do so, which is why my hon. Friend is suggesting that we work with and be led by the profession. If teachers believe in what they are doing, they will be committed to their own development, and those same teachers told me that being qualified was a vital first step to ensuring the best standards in our schools.”
“The system of support and mentoring across London under the last Labour Government saw London’s schools move from below the national average to being the best in the country. The London Challenge included a significant emphasis on support and coaching for teachers and school leavers and led to a culture change across schools and the city—one in which many staff bought into the idea that their pupils would benefit if they worked on their own teaching performance. As well as good teachers, we need good leaders. In any organisation, it is the leadership that sets the tone for how the staff operate, and schools are no different. Having a good leader who can get the best out of everyone is vital to ensuring that teaching is of the highest standard.”
“When an Education Minister came before the Committee, they ruled out the introduction of performance-related pay. Evidence to the Select Committee shows that, especially for children who lack support at home, the difference that a good or outstanding teacher can make compared with a mediocre or poor one is startling. For all pupils, there is a GCSE grade difference of more than one for those taught by the best teachers compared with those taught by the weakest. Research from Harvard and Columbia universities suggests that children taught by the best are more likely to participate in further education, to attend better colleges, to earn higher salaries and to save more for retirement. We also have evidence from London Challenge of the difference that can be made by sustained investment in teaching and school leadership.”
“But why have Ministers failed to match their rhetoric with action? Something like what my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) suggests in his Apprenticeships and Skills (Public Procurement Contracts) Bill would create thousands of new quality apprenticeship opportunities by requiring all major suppliers on large public projects to offer apprenticeships.”
“One supermarket in my constituency offers free newspapers and coffee, another has opened a new carwash and dry cleaner as it competes for customers, and that of course has a significant effect on local independent retailers. May we have a debate on the balance needed between the actions of the supermarkets and the need to look after our small shopkeepers, and on how we provide support for local independent retailers?”
“May I offer an example from my constituency to support the motion and illustrate the urgency of the matter? A constituent of mine moved into her pub a few years ago with the promise of significant investment being made in the property. Those repairs have never been carried out. She also has to buy her beer from the pub company; if she buys from elsewhere, the pub company fines her and charges her significantly more. Does not that illustrate why the motion is so important—particularly the part about rent-only tenancies—and why we need action now? Tenants such as my constituent cannot afford to wait any longer for action.”
“I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate and on agreeing with the intervention by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). I suggest that the long-term objective might be to treat children—whether they be in foster care or residential care—as if they were our own children, which is supposed to be the situation now. That implies a much more flexible and longer-term view of how long these children should stay with their parents.”
“Condensation, damp and mould in social housing are now at a level that has not been reported by social housing experts for many years. Does the Minister not appreciate that what has changed the situation is the bedroom tax, along with other cuts in the income of people who live in those properties?”
“There must be a change in the banks’ approach if we are to see the recovery and the investment in business that will lead to the exports that this country desperately needs to move forward in the short term and the long term. The banking system is crucial in this. Our proposed measures show the way forward. I hope the Government will pay attention to them and take the action that is needed, and not just carry on as they have during the past three years.”
“I completely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) about social responsibility. Within a few yards of my constituency office, we face the closure of one branch of a bank. He mentioned the role of post offices. I agree, too, that we should see post offices as another valuable element in our banking system, but unfortunately we also face a post office closure not far from my office. Perhaps Ministers in different Departments—those responsible for post offices and those responsible for banking matters—need to talk to each other, and of course to the banks as well. Labour Members have the right ideas about regional banks and about how we could ensure that there is the lending to small businesses that is needed.”
“It is important to distinguish between banking executives and those who get large bonuses and the ordinary bank staff who do a great job up and down the country, day in, day out, in serving their customers in the retail sector—personal and business customers. We can learn a lot from MSIF about how to lend. It does not just lend money but gives advice and management support. It understands the local economy and aims to support jobs and growth. It is not a bank, but it performs many of the functions of banks and is filling the gaps left by the banks. It shows what can be done in this country in just the way that the Sparkassen do in Germany. Those are two examples that we can learn from in supporting small businesses. Our proposal for regional banks has much in common with the German model and with what is going on in Merseyside.”
“It is something that I am afraid we moved away from after the big bang of the late ’80s. We can learn from Germany, but there are good examples in this country too, such as the Merseyside Special Investment Fund. It provides equity and loan finance to small businesses in Merseyside, and it has been one of the few sources of such support to businesses since the financial crisis. Some of its customers switched to it having been turned down for loans by their banks. People who were unable to borrow from the banks have succeeded with MSIF. Indeed, local bank staff across Merseyside sometimes refer customers to MSIF because their own computer says no, so even they understand the problem.”
“It is not something that we could introduce here directly, but we could certainly learn something about having a bonus culture that is manageable, proportionate, fair and based on success, and the right kind of success, rather than how much the banks lend. The banks in Germany are set up to produce jobs and growth and the banking system is designed to support small businesses. One of the interesting things I learnt from the Sparkassen is that rather than us having to become better Germans, we should look at who created the German regional banking system—it was this country, after the second world war. We based it on the old stable and steady lending criteria that we used to have in the old regional banks. We developed the system in Germany using this country’s experience and expertise.”
“It is just as bad for small businesses as it is for everybody else. The banks have a crucial role in turning that cost of living crisis around. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) mentioned the German system and how he would like to introduce something similar here, and I agree. Having met representatives of the Sparkassen, I must say that they have a lot to teach us. They know their customers, are based in the regions where they lend, understand the local economy and can lend only in that area. We could also learn something about bonus culture from the German system, because its regional banks’ remuneration is linked to the financial success of the economic area in which they lend.”
“Most of the 4.7 million small business—those with fewer than 10 members of staff—that I meet are unable to borrow money from the banks. They will not lend to them, whether they are the high-tech growth businesses trying to develop the products we need to develop our export industry or the mainstays of our communities—the service firms that support local communities up and down the country. The banks are not lending, whether the companies have a good track record or a good business plan. It seems that the only firms that the banks are lending to—and even here we are seeing some problems—are the larger ones, the medium-sized companies that have significant assets against which they can borrow. I am afraid that the cost of living crisis, which is hitting many ordinary people in this country, is also hitting those who own or run small firms.”
“Like other hon. Members, I want to speak about some of my constituents’ experiences with the banks, particularly in relation to small business lending. The banks’ behaviour changed overnight when the global financial crisis hit, as a number of businesses in my constituency have made clear to me. They had been repaying loans for years and had never missed a payment, but suddenly the banks called in the loans—the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) made this same point—and many good businesses went to the wall as a result. That is something I experienced, although our business did not fail, but only because we were able to bail ourselves out by using personal savings. The problem today is that the banks are still not lending to small businesses.”
“Don’t worry, I’m not after a knighthood. The Minister’s party colleague, the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), made it clear that the funding for lending scheme has failed and that lending to small businesses has fallen. The Minister’s comments have been notable in their failure to mention what he is going to do about funding for small businesses. Will he tell us now?”
“Ministers have repeatedly claimed that no one will pay more than £72,000 in care costs, but given that the cap will be based on the rate local authorities charge for care and not the actual amount people have to pay, will the Minister confirm that people will have to pay more than £72,000 and that the so-called cap is not a cap at all?”
“That is a remarkable answer, given that on 9 September, the former Minister, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), told my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) that total expenditure on flood defences was projected to fall from £646 million in 2010-11 to £546 million in 2015-16. Given those figures and the scale of the recent flooding, will the Secretary of State say how flood defences such as those in my constituency will be repaired? Will he confirm whether he will press for additional funds for flood defence repairs?”
“Significant damage was done in Crosby and Hightown during the December floods. As a result, council officers told me this morning that we were very lucky to avoid further significant flooding this weekend. Cuts to flood defence funding since 2010 mean that many communities have now been left vulnerable to further flooding, so will the Secretary of State ensure that funding is made available for the early repair of the flood defences that have been damaged?”
“I think that is precisely the point my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) was making. The money simply is not there in local government. When 20% of the adult services budget has been lost, the services are not there and the care managers are not there to do the assessment to decide whether to keep people at home or to help them get out of hospital. The service back in the community, after people have come out of hospital, is not there either. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that that money has to go back in?”
“My hon. Friend is making an absolutely crucial point. Does she agree that unless investment in social care is made now, it will end up costing far more in the cost of the NHS, as well as that of social care? It is the lack of ambition, as well as the lack of finance, that is really disappointing in what the Government are introducing in the Bill.”
“Perhaps the time has come to say that that is the ambition that we, as Members of Parliament, should have. Tinkering at the edges will not solve the problem. The debate we must have—and it must be a cross-party debate—is about how to pay for such a service. As people get older, that is what will be needed. Sooner or later, we as legislators will have to deliver exactly that service. Anything short of that will not solve the problems; things will only get worse. I put it to Members from all parties that that is what is needed. We have made a start with the Bill and tonight’s debate, but we will need to move down the route of free health and social care and of whole-person care. That is the only way we can solve the challenge of an ageing population.”
“We have a proposal for a £72,000 cap on care, but my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East described the sum that her nan had to pay, which was £130,000. For many people, the £72,000 cap will be no help, and other Members have given the details that show that. There are a number of ways of funding social care, one of which is to have a cap. However, let me return to the comments made by the hon. Member for Bradford East. If we are considering free social care at the end of life, or, as I said, a lot earlier than that, perhaps the time has come for Members to debate free social care as part of a health and social care service that is free at the point of delivery and at the point of need, like that which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has mentioned before.”
“They are not there, as Members have said, to help people in the community stay in their own homes; they are not there to help people who have gone into hospital go home again. Those situations are combining to leave a crisis in A and E—we will have that debate on Wednesday, but that is what has been allowed to develop. I am afraid that the reorganisation of the NHS during the first years of this Government, with clinical commissioning groups being created, meant that administrators and managers in the health service were concentrating on setting up new structures and not on ensuring that health services were delivered properly. These things do not happen by accident. When £3 billion is spent on reorganisation and not on patient care, that is the sort of situation we end up with. The question is what should we do.”
“My mum’s social care needs are met but the lack of proper support has meant that things are not as they should be. I do not think that my mum’s case is the worst, by any means, but it is indicative of where things are missing. The Government have made a proposal and they have talked a lot about integration between health and social care. I remember looking at integrated health and social care teams many years ago as a local councillor and there was success then. There has been more success recently and there are good examples of health and social care professionals working together, but cuts to social care, in particular, mean that the money simply is not there any more. I cited the figures earlier. In Sefton, we have seen a 40% cut in local government funding. The care managers are simply not there any more.”
“She ended up in hospital where, happily, she received very good care. Her wish was met and she was able to go home, and the health service provided a hospital bed that she could use there. Once she got home, the lack of service in the community became a problem again. There was not the rehab, the physio or the support to enable her to return to some kind of active life. Now, many months later, it is too late—that will not happen. My mum rarely gets out of bed any more. For many people, such an experience is all too familiar. It happens because of how social care and health have been allowed to operate over the years, with no proper integration and without people in the two services talking to each other. My parents receive a care package now, with carers coming in.”
“The LSE cites £2.8 billion as the figure required for councils to set eligibility at moderate, in the context of an overall budget spend for health and social care of £120 billion. The fact that it would take £2.8 billion to set the criteria at moderate speaks volumes about what could be done if we got this right. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) mentioned her family and I am going to talk about my family now. My dad cares for my mum. Let me describe my mum’s experience this year, because it is the experience of many older people and their families. In the early part of the year, she was being cared for by my dad and she gradually declined until she was rushed into hospital. I think it happened because no health professionals or social care professionals were keeping a close enough eye on her.”
“That was an important point, but at what stage should social care be free? What do we mean by end of life? What criteria should we set? How much earlier than the end of a life should that care come? How do we fund free social care and how do we fund social care at all? That is one of the big concerns and that is why the reasoned amendment mentions our concerns about where the cap has been set. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) mentioned the concern that the needs of disabled people may have been overlooked. The London School of Economics cites the fact that 97,000 fewer disabled people have been in receipt of social care since 2008—the figure for older people is 250,000.”
“I also agree with him about the need to integrate what happens under the Children and Families Bill with what happens under this Bill. The crossover he mentioned between children’s service and adult services as children grow up is important. The Children and Families Bill and this Bill create significant new responsibilities for the NHS and local government, and the big question for the Government is about where the resources will come from to deliver them. I was a local councillor for more than 15 years under both previous Governments and it was a familiar story for local councils to be given new responsibilities without necessarily always being given the resources to deliver them. That is an important point about this crucial Bill. The hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) mentioned the need for free social care at the end of life.”
“The hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) speaks with great passion and knowledge in support of children with autism. He made an incredibly important point when he asked who cares for vulnerable children once the parents have gone. Indeed, who cares for all those we care for once we are gone? That is a powerful and important point. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that this debate is about the principle of the Bill. He talked about the need for action, which is why the Bill is welcome. We have an opportunity to improve services for many people, but Labour Members feel that the Bill should be more ambitious, which is why the reasoned amendment is so important, and it is what the reasoned amendment is saying.”
“Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many children will qualify for free school meals in households in receipt of universal credit?”
“I am afraid that I could not resist the temptation to say that my hon. Friend raises that point only because he was jealous at not having the opportunity to join in. Is he aware of the scientific research—I do not think we considered it in our inquiry—that points to the link between physical activity, brain development and learning in the classroom? The head teacher was making the point, based on her experience, that physical activity clearly works, but the scientific evidence is there to back that up.”
“I encourage the Minister to consider how that money could be used to create self-sufficiency, so that the importance of physical activity and sport in primary schools is well understood and teachers in the primary sector are in a position to deliver on the report’s recommendations. I know the Government would like to see that.”
“All the recommendations are worth looking at. One point that came out, which other hon. Members have touched on, was the lack of PE training for primary teachers. The work force issue is important. I remember hearing from one of the witnesses that many teachers go into primary deliberately because they do not like sport. That is the reality in the primary sector. Therefore, support for PE teachers is incredibly important. If the money can be used for anything, perhaps it should be on that support. Again, at Curwen primary, we saw the way in which the FA went in to create self-sufficiency by producing a skills programme and trained the teachers to run it over a longer time.”