Dolores Kelly
Upper Bann · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“The legislation is only as good as its enforcement. It will be enabled by the sentences that judges and others may hand down, by cultural shifts and by changes in behaviour because of the penalties in place as a consequence. <BR /> <BR />We need to do much more with cybercrime units. We need proper resources for them.”
“It also covers the background to the Good Friday Agreement and the creation of this Assembly, as well as subsequent political negotiations over the years. The major figures and events over the past 100 years have been reflected in a way that ensures that all political perspectives of the Assembly are reflected.”
“I thank the Member for his question. An update on the current COVID-19 health and safety measures was issued to all users of Parliament Buildings on 1 March 2022. The update set out the current arrangements for ensuring the continuing safety of everyone in the Building.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I am pleased to inform him that the review of the display of artefacts is at a very advanced stage. The Member may have seen the letter that the Speaker issued on behalf of the Assembly Commission earlier today.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a member of the Policing Board, I receive updates on a regular basis from the National Crime Agency (NCA), which has determined that between 16,000 and 23,000 children and young people are at risk from sexual offences and grooming online. Those are horrendous figures, and that must be a nightmare scenario for any family.”
“Thank you for your answer, Minister. You rightly outlined a lot of medical and therapeutic interventions, but many children are suffering post-traumatic stress-type symptoms or, indeed, social isolation as a consequence of COVID.”
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“The Department claims that this is unnecessary, but the intention is the same as the above: it is an attempt to find a workable solution to protect sick young persons. Again, we await the Minister's response. <BR /> <BR />There is opposition to clauses 61 and 63. This ensures that claimants can receive contributory JSA, ESA, maternity allowance or statutory payments only if they are entitled to employment. We have brought this forward because of concerns articulated to us and to others about the rights of migrant workers in particular. We believe that social security measures are coordinated by EU member states on the basis of established principles of EU law, including free movement of workers and equal treatment. During Committee Stage, there were concerns that these clauses might not comply with EU law.”
“Contribution-based ESA should be afforded to young people as well as to adults to ensure protection for them and their households. We are advised by DSD that the Department is to bring an amendment to afford that protection, but we do not see it here today. We will therefore await with interest what the Minister commits to this evening. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 28 adds the words:”
“In moving the amendments on behalf of the SDLP, we will take account of the Minister's contribution at the end of the debate. Some of them are, indeed, probing amendments, and we will look to see what assurances he can give in allaying some of the concerns that I will be raising on behalf of the party in relation to these amendments. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2 is a proposal to reduce the waiting day provision from a maximum of seven days to three days. We believe seven days is too long. Seven waiting days at the start of a claim is currently the practice with jobseeker's allowance and ESA, and this is an opportunity to rectify that. I also refer to amendment No 27, which was tabled by Mr Steven Agnew and signed by us. It deals with removing the time-limiting aspect for ESA youth claimants. We believe that we need to protect young people.”
“In relation to Mr Wilson's contribution, was the Member also going to refer to his staunch defence of Sinn Féin's position? I know that love is in the air as Valentine's Day approaches, but it is a somewhat unusual courtship in the House today.”
“Does the Member share my astonishment at the selective amnesia that seems to have befallen Mr O'Dowd, who failed to mention the 40,000 letters issued in east Belfast that led to flag protests, controversy and public disorder on the streets, causing strained relationships? Would he not also acknowledge — has Mr O'Dowd forgotten? — that the ongoing disgrace of the OTR letters of comfort also had a role to play in the "strained relationships", to use Mr O'Dowd's words, between him and his partners in the DUP?”
“I have concerns about guidance and regulations, in particular for people who have a learning disability, perhaps coupled with a severe physical disability. I have experience of representing constituents and their carers who are elderly and have repeat calls for review and appeal, which is traumatic and puts a lot of stress and anxiety on them. In bringing forward the guidance, Minister, I wonder whether you would look at the concerns raised. I will write to you if you wish about this case, because it is hugely traumatic for the carers in particular.”
“It appears that the Executive have already failed to implement the Stormont House Agreement, because this is the month of February. I do not see where there has been any walking away from the agreement. We are debating the Bill here. We did not give a veto to the dictatorship that runs in Sinn Féin and the DUP. I know that those two parties clamp down on dissidents and speakers who have a different view from the party leadership, but the House has a duty to scrutinise the Assembly, and it is the right of the legislative Assembly to scrutinise legislation. We are not giving up that right.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I want to clarify something for Members who do not appear to have read the Stormont House Agreement and are trying to throw in a number of red herrings about what was or was not agreed. There are six lines in the agreement, as I said earlier, on welfare reform and the Bill. If I may be permitted, they state:”
“Therefore, are you surprised to learn that Sinn Féin has not signed the petition of concern that we have tabled and that you signed last night?”
“Is the Member surprised to learn that, at Sinn Féin's ard fheis in 2013, Martin McGuinness said:”
“Our party has no difficulty. We are struggling to understand what was the secret deal. One secret deal that we are interested in, Mr Allister, is the one between Sinn Féin and the DUP, which has led to the departure of several senior members of Sinn Féin.”
“I welcome the Minister's commitment to hearing our concerns. Could she outline how the contract is monitored and whether or not any penalties are to be incurred by the successful contractor, which I believe is BT?”
“This would be an important statement by the House that special recognition is given by the Assembly to people who continue to suffer the trauma of the past. I ask the DUP not to deploy the petition of concern on this clause. I ask it not to deploy a petition of concern against any of the clauses, but, in particular, I ask for some recognition to be given to the sensitivities of this clause. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 57 and 74 are from Mr Agnew, and we, as a party, give a commitment to hear him on the matter. <BR /> <BR />That ends my contribution on the first group of amendments. We, as a party, have shown responsibility and concern for the most vulnerable. We have done what we said we would do in the tabling of these amendments.”
“They have to give greater explanation to their bank, and a minimum requirement is two utility bills. For people who find themselves homeless or in sheltered or hostel-type accommodation, that proves to be an onerous task. I believe that Mr Agnew will refer further to that. It is an amendment that we are minded to support in relation to the difficulties that people find themselves in when opening bank accounts. Again, we will listen carefully to Mr Agnew's contribution on amendment Nos 44 and 45 and the policy intent behind them. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 53 is the one that I referred to a few moments ago in relation to taking account of victims and survivors. We have, over many years, given various commitments as a society to the victims of the conflict. Sadly, not very many of them have materialised.”
“We will listen carefully to what Mr Agnew says about amendment Nos 37, 38 and 39 in relation to the assessments and why he believes they should be carried out by a trust or GP. Some Members said that they already will be and that it might be some sort of agreement with the various trusts in relation to the release of health-care professionals. After speaking to Mr Agnew yesterday, I believe that some of the intent of the amendments was around accountability. I look forward to hearing further from him during the course of today's debate. <BR /> <BR />I met Mr Agnew also in relation to amendment Nos 43 and 44. Amendment No 43 is "cash" in its broadest terms. It is around the bank Giro cheque and the Post Office account. We all know that there has been a crackdown by the banks on people opening accounts and moving money about.”
“As a former occupational therapist who worked in a psychiatric unit about 14 years ago, I recall vividly a senior psychiatrist remarking on the numbers who were presenting at that time with mental ill health as a consequence of the Troubles, so we are only starting to see that pattern emerging. Her words were prophetic, and I think that has been on the increase. <BR /> <BR />You have to look to young people in particular and the level of suicides, so we have to take proper recognition of mental ill health. It is not something that someone glibly puts down who wants to be pigeonholed. I hope that the Department takes greater awareness and cognisance of any medical evidence in relation to mental ill health. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 36 is similar and deals with the same subject as amendment No 19.”
“Amendment No 19 deals with evidence of mental ill health. In a society coming out of conflict, there has to be recognition that instances of mental ill health are on the rise. People are suffering. A lot of workplace absenteeism is now noted as being as a result of stress and anxiety, so mental ill health is a cause for concern to me and, hopefully, to the House. <BR /> <BR />I have touched on victims in another amendment. A difficulty for some families who were victims of the conflict and who I have represented is having to relive and open their wounds again as they have to tell another person why they should get support. It really is opening up that emotive, raw state for them. That is one of the reasons why we want sensitivity in the Department in relation to these amendments.”
“Mr Ramsey will address that amendment later. I think that he had some discussions with the Health Minister about that. We will check that out, and Mr Ramsey will hopefully inform the House of where that commitment is and of how satisfied he was by what the Minister said.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also ask that this amendment not be subject to a petition of concern. I think that that would be a very good statement from the House about our commitment to those people who suffer from such attacks. I remind Members that a person who comes forward to the police for help or to make a complaint will usually have suffered a minimum of 35 incidents of attack or assault. So, we are talking about people who are in crisis and at a very vulnerable time in their life. I ask Members to reflect carefully on that. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 13 deals with similar issues. <BR /> <BR />In amendment No 17, we are asking the Department to bring in a replacement to the independent living fund within 18 months of the Bill's commencement. I note Mr Beggs's comments about commitments that my colleague Mr Ramsey got.”
“That is why we are looking for tighter regulations, but if the Minister has something to say, we will listen carefully. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 12 looks at, as Mr Beggs referred to, victims of hate incidents and at allowing some leeway in observing claimant commitment. We looked particularly at domestic violence in that context. Only yesterday, I had a victim of domestic violence having to go for repeat ESA interviews. I advised them that, as I understand, there is a commitment from Minister Storey's predecessor to victims of domestic violence. Given the huge rise in the number of domestic violence incidents that are coming to our police service's attention, the House should address and take seriously that vulnerable group's needs. I ask Members to think carefully about that.”
“More importantly, the people who are at the other end of those appeals will not have to suffer the stress and anxiety that goes with them. The number of people who I have had to take aside so that they can dry their tears before they even go in to the appeal is very humbling. Those are not occasions that anyone looks forward to, and we should not be robbing people of their basic human dignity. We should be there to support them. That is what the welfare state was created for. It was created to give human dignity to people and to put people at the centre of a society where they are treated more fairly and equally. It was not created to reduce them to snivelling wrecks as they go to an appeal to get what they are rightly due.”
“We are asking that there is acknowledgement of evidence of mental ill health. I have represented people at appeal who have chronic and enduring mental health conditions for which there is no cure. Those people have management regimes that usually involve medication. I believe that there should be greater cognisance of that and that a greater onus of responsibility should be placed on the assessors. Some of them behave as though they are the red coats who run around doing parking tickets as though there is some sort of reward voucher scheme for turning people down. <BR /> <BR />I think that over 40% of appeals have been won. People are talking about the cost, but if we get it right and put the right people in to do the right assessments to get the right outcomes, costs can be reduced for appeals.”
“I do not see any crocodile tears in evidence. I am merely stating fact. I do not think that my colleague sent out a job description that asked all those healthcare professionals who would disregard the evidence and turn people down to apply. We certainly acknowledge that a job of work is required to be done, and we expect the highest professional standards in carrying it out. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP has not, in any shape or form, defended Atos's track record. I believe that the contract has now been awarded to Capita. Mr McCann's blushes will be saved somewhat later today by the DUP's petition of concern when he goes through whatever Lobby he chooses. So, I think that you have more questions to ask of your party colleagues. <BR /> <BR />The system has always been that people put forward medical evidence.”
“When I represented the lady at appeal, the GP on the panel was disgusted and absolutely shocked and could not believe that this level of medical evidence and knowledge was set aside. It would seem that some of the very energetic members of Atos, in their attempts to refuse people —”
“I heard what others said about how that is currently the case, but, given the track record of Atos in particular, it is very clear to me in my constituency work and representational role that quite a bit of evidence is set aside. There are different interpretations by a number of health-care professionals who have medical evidence before them but disregard it. <BR /> <BR />I will give you one particular example as to why I am concerned. I represent a lady who has an arthritic condition called ankylosing spondylitis, which is a degenerative chronic condition. It means that she was not able to continue in her job as a home help, as it used to be known. The health-care professional who made the assessment was a qualified nurse, but she turned the lady down and gave her nil points for that disability.”
“It is true to say that, while a lot of welfare reform has to be agreed by the House, it is also the case that other welfare reform comes from Westminster. Some childcare and tax vouchers, for example, are non-devolved matters, so there is already a very changed landscape, and it is difficult for professionals to keep up, never mind people who find themselves being in circumstances in which they first have to enter that system and have never been unemployed before. <BR /> <BR />In amendment No 11, we ask the Department to:”
“<BR /> <BR />I will now turn my attention to amendment No 8, which introduces the default position of an award of universal credit being paid twice monthly unless a claimant or joint claimants opt to be paid monthly. I heard what Ms Bradley said, and I hope that the Minister will address this. We will listen carefully to that and make a judgement later in the day as the debate continues. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 9 is about the Department's regard for a claimant's skills when completing a claimant commitment. We need to be assured that people have the right help at the right time, because we all know how complicated many of these forms are. In our constituency offices, we can hardly keep up because of the changing nature of such forms.”
“If family income is reduced to such a level that there are increasing levels of poverty and more children in the North of Ireland living in poverty, I can understand why people have to make the choice about whether or not they take up a job and how that impacts on their family. <BR /> <BR />The Tories' agenda of making work pay has not been accompanied by more robust measures for tackling some of the loopholes that employers use in the provision of terms and conditions for such employment. It is a matter of regret that the Executive have not yet got their head around providing good, affordable childcare to enable people to go back into the workplace.”
“The Government and Departments should be in a position to help people to retrain and prepare themselves for a different workplace. <BR /> <BR />I just want to make one other general point. We do not yet have a robust childcare strategy in place. Over recent weeks, we have heard about the soaring costs of childcare. It is all right for people who have never experienced unemployment to make assumptions about people being work-shy, but that is not so in the vast majority of cases. The majority of people want to get out to work because they think that it is better for their self-esteem and self-confidence, and it provides a better role model for their family.”
“Of course, given the number of redundancies that some people are experiencing, not least in north Antrim, where 800 people are set to lose their jobs, there is an obvious need to spend money on retraining. We have concerns that opportunities are not going to be there for people. We also have concerns about zero-hours contracts, which are on the increase. I think that they are totally immoral. We see an increase in temporary, part-time, low-paid jobs. <BR /> <BR />I think that the vast majority of people who find themselves unemployed want to get back into the workplace but for some who are in their 40s or 50s, it is difficult. I believe that there should be greater opportunities and that cognisance should be given to their life experience and job experience.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 9 relates to preparing claimant commitments and states that the Department must have due regard for the claimant's skills, experience, caring responsibilities and physical and mental ill health. This is important because we all, across our constituency offices, have concerns in relation to the types of jobs that people are being expected to undertake, where the skills and experience do not match the work that people are being asked to take up. I do not think that there are many people who would not express some difficulty and require retraining. We are seeing this against a backdrop of savage cuts to the DEL budget and to employment and training.”
“It provides that, where a person cannot provide all the required documentation to make a claim, there is provision made for third-party verification in lieu of required documentation, including identity documents, so that the claim can be made. As Ms Bradley said, this was something that the Committee had similar concerns about when it, some two years ago, scrutinised the Bill. Again, we will wait to hear how the Minister is going to deal with that issue. <BR /> <BR />We think that it is important to table amendments so that we can hear from the Minister and get commitments on the Floor of the House in relation to how we move forward.”
“We just felt that ours was in a different place in the Bill; it is more just a question of where it is positioned rather than any of the policy intention. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 4 proposes a new clause that would allow third parties to obtain documents necessary for a claim where claimants cannot obtain it themselves. I think that is fairly self-explanatory. I note that there is also a petition of concern on that; you would have to ask why that is, other than that regulations might deal with it. We will wait to hear what the Minister has to say. Amendment No 4 inserts a new clause on the provision of claimant documentation when making a claim for universal credit.”
“We are going to listen carefully to the Minister's commitments in relation to some of the amendments that we have tabled. We will see whether or not he will commit to bring forward regulations that will allay some of our concerns in relation to the new clauses that we are tabling today. <BR /> <BR />I will address our party's proposed clauses. Mr Beggs quite rightly said, in relation to amendment No 1 to clause 4, that the SDLP had a similar amendment. We are happy to support that amendment, which will help when there is a breakdown in a family relationship or a lack of cooperation so that one family member will not suffer. <BR /> <BR />I will move to amendment No 3, which proposes a new clause after clause 6. It is similar to the amendment that Roy Beggs proposed.”
“At yesterday's Committee meeting, when officials explained the Minister's amendments, we learnt that agreement on how some of the mitigating measures are to be introduced has not yet been reached by the Executive, so we are operating in somewhat of a vacuum in relation to the Bill. It would have been much more useful, and we probably would not have been so sceptical, if we had the two in tandem before the House today. We could have spoken with greater information before us.”
“<BR /> <BR />With that backdrop, the SDLP has not been shy about the necessity of welfare reform and improvements to how the system operates; we have put forward amendments in the various groups with the intent of improving the lot of the people who require help through the welfare system. There is no shame in that; it is our responsibility. It has always been our stated intention in relation to the Welfare Reform Bill. <BR /> <BR />I also note that some Members' remarks and contributions referred to the Stormont House Agreement. The Stormont House Agreement contains no more than six lines on welfare reform, the introduction of the legislation and the flexibilities.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is ironic that, on the day that we are discussing the Welfare Reform Bill, the media are full of stories about the tax avoidance used by the world's wealthiest companies and individuals in GB society. Last night, we saw the sorry spectacle of many of the wealthiest people tripping into one of the big Tory dinner dances. The Tories have looked after their interests, but they have failed to look after the interests of the poorest. Only four or five weeks ago Oxfam, in preparing for a summit of world leaders, made the case that over 50% of the world's wealth is now held by 1% of the world's population. Many commentators, including, more recently, Pope Francis, have stated that growing wealth inequality is bad for economic development and bad for good governance and is surely morally wrong.”
“In that regard, one part of our community is going to suffer more of an adverse impact than those who are relatively well off, but, of course, they will be right across the community. It appears that there are now more Tories in the DUP ranks than ever before. I know that a number of them were previously card-carrying members of the Tory party. I deplore the use of petitions of concern in relation to this matter. One might make the reasonable assumption that the late notice of petitions of concern was to save the blushes of the party to my right, which claims that it was stalling on welfare reform in order to get more money from the British Treasury. That money did not come; it is going to come from the other public sectors.”
“I am pleased to speak on behalf of the SDLP in relation to the amendments that our party has tabled. Members are, quite rightly, outraged at the petitions of concern against all the amendments. It is an attack on democracy; it is an attack on the House's opportunity to scrutinise fully the implications of the Bill. It is certainly not the reason for which petitions of concern were intended. We all know that petitions of concern were to be deployed only if it was felt that one community would suffer an adverse impact over another. <BR /> <BR />We all know that the sufferers under welfare reform as proposed by the Tories will be the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.”
“It also means, does it not, Mr Attwood, that the Chief Constable has the power of veto over the operation of the NCA?”
“There will be no hiding place for them. <BR /> <BR />We also believe that we have secured a full range of powers, both in statute and in the memorandums of understanding. As detailed in the papers before you, the human rights adviser of the Policing Board will have full powers of inspection and will have the same level of transparency available for her inspection of the NCA. The Policing Board, most especially, will have the full range of powers of accountability and scrutiny, which will include being able to hold the director general to account not only in relation to the annual plan but in how he gives effect to the annual plan. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP has worked hard. We always said that, if we believed that the time was right and the accountability mechanisms were right, we would lend our support to the operation of the NCA.”
“One that is most important and which Mr Ross referred to is the code of ethics. We are very pleased that the director general of the NCA will not only be bound by but will be held to account on the code of ethics, which is similar to that of the PSNI. We welcome his intention to see where he can incorporate the best parts of that code of ethics into the operation of the NCA not only here but in GB. That says something about the code of ethics to which our police officers have to adhere. <BR /> <BR />We are also very pleased with the Police Ombudsman's full range of powers. Not only will he have the full powers available to him in relation to how the NCA operates here, but, if an NCA operative acts wrongly here, or there is a complaint against him, the Police Ombudsman can have that long reach across to GB or wherever that officer may be.”
“<BR /> <BR />I wish to outline some of the accountability mechanisms, which were not on the table only a matter of weeks ago, in more detail than Mr Ross did. He stole some of my thunder in outlining some of those accountability mechanisms.”
“<BR /> <BR />At a recent meeting of the Policing Board, Policing Board member Caitríona Ruane asked the Chief Constable about operations against the UVF, particularly in east Belfast. The answer was that the police would be able to go after them harder and faster if they had the support and the resources available through the full operation of the NCA. I hope that today puts on notice those people who want to destroy our communities and infect our young people with their drugs and their criminality. <BR /> <BR />So, too, has the NCA been put on notice. It has the support of the broad community in the North, and we want to see results as a consequence of it having, with the police, the full range of powers.”
“<BR /> <BR />Today is a day when, once again, the SDLP gives leadership. It gives leadership across the policing architecture and makes its own decision on what is right, and not just for the people whom we represent. The accountability mechanisms that we have secured will win favour with all of the people. I am told by senior police officers and others that many chief constables in GB are quite jealous of the accountability mechanisms that we have secured. <BR /> <BR />I noted Mr Kelly's earlier comments. I hope he is not too aggrieved that, on this occasion, he did not act as the postman for the NIO in relation to the delivery of letters of comfort to the SDLP from the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State.”
“I am pleased to speak on behalf of the SDLP this afternoon in support of the motion. The SDLP has, over the last number of months, been negotiating hard and long into the evenings with the Department of Justice, the National Crime Agency (NCA) and the PSNI on the accountability mechanisms that, we believe, are necessary to allow the full operation of the NCA in the North of Ireland. We believe that it is the right time for that. Only recently, senior police officers referred to there being up to 160 organised crime gangs in the North, and we believe that it is in the public interest for the full resources available to the law enforcement agencies in the North to be in place for them to go after the criminals. We are pleased with the level of accountability that we have secured. I will touch on some aspects of that shortly.”
“Minister, you attempted to outline some of the flexibilities pertaining to the sanctions. Can you give the House an assurance that we will have our own bespoke model of sanctions and not impose the higher rate of sanctions outlined at Westminster?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I am sure that he will also want to put on record the comment of his fellow Derry man and the world's greatest Irish man that "You can't eat a flag", even if it is on a driving licence.”
“Given that your permanent secretary had a role in the NIO at that time, what confidence do you have in his ability to inform you of the scale and nature of the letters that were delivered by a Member of the House, Mr Gerry Kelly, about whose role in the matter the coroner has serious concerns?”
“Will the Minister outline his Department's responsibilities in the matter, because it is my understanding that that is where the real decision and the responsibility for the decision lies?”