Dolores Kelly
Upper Bann · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“The legislation is only as good as its enforcement. It will be enabled by the sentences that judges and others may hand down, by cultural shifts and by changes in behaviour because of the penalties in place as a consequence. <BR /> <BR />We need to do much more with cybercrime units. We need proper resources for them.”
“It also covers the background to the Good Friday Agreement and the creation of this Assembly, as well as subsequent political negotiations over the years. The major figures and events over the past 100 years have been reflected in a way that ensures that all political perspectives of the Assembly are reflected.”
“I thank the Member for his question. An update on the current COVID-19 health and safety measures was issued to all users of Parliament Buildings on 1 March 2022. The update set out the current arrangements for ensuring the continuing safety of everyone in the Building.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I am pleased to inform him that the review of the display of artefacts is at a very advanced stage. The Member may have seen the letter that the Speaker issued on behalf of the Assembly Commission earlier today.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a member of the Policing Board, I receive updates on a regular basis from the National Crime Agency (NCA), which has determined that between 16,000 and 23,000 children and young people are at risk from sexual offences and grooming online. Those are horrendous figures, and that must be a nightmare scenario for any family.”
“Thank you for your answer, Minister. You rightly outlined a lot of medical and therapeutic interventions, but many children are suffering post-traumatic stress-type symptoms or, indeed, social isolation as a consequence of COVID.”
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“I am also interested to hear what the Minister has to say.”
“However, some integrated school principals have said to me that the authority and system under which they work, even for small projects in respect of their budget, is set against them in their trying to get work done. That is a particular concern for them. <BR /> <BR />These are all stresses. Many people now recognise that teaching is no longer only about imparting knowledge. Teachers have to be the social worker, the policeman, if you like, in the school playground, the budget-maker, the financial decision-maker, the crisis counsellor and all sorts of things. Our teachers need our support to remove some of those stresses and strains to try to get the best educational and learning environment for pupils and students <BR /> <BR />I will finish here. I had a lot more to say but I know that other Members will want to have their say.”
“St Ronan's College, being an amalgamation of three former post-primary schools — St Mary's High School, St Paul's Junior High School and St Michael's Grammar School — is, of course, one of the largest post-primary schools. The school is quite an ambitious project, and it is important that we see the new build move forward at pace, not least because young people are currently educated between two sites, which is a nightmare for pupils and, indeed, the management of the school. In addition, it is, I think, fair to say, following a recent meeting with a police superintendent, that policing the site is a security nightmare. <BR /> <BR />Before I finish, I want to touch on the integrated sector. Portadown Integrated Nursery and Primary School is busting at the seams and does not have a site for a new build, which is its ultimate aim.”
“<BR /> <BR />Over the last few months, I have been working with St Ronan's College in Lurgan, for which my colleague John O'Dowd, when Education Minister, announced a new build in 2015. We expected and anticipated that that would be in place and that the school doors would be open for 2019-2020. There has been a lot of toing and froing between the Planning Service and Roads Service. It is interesting, and I am delighted to say that, as a consequence, I believe, of knocking a few heads together, asking a few Assembly questions and having this debate, we will see, by Friday, the concerns being ironed out, and I hope that a recommendation of approval for the new build will go to the October meeting of Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council.”
“<BR /> <BR />On safety and security, many schools, as the Minister will know, have quite a role to play in the safeguarding of children and preventing the access of unauthorised adults to the school estate. They must also ensure that younger children, in particular, are safe while on school premises. St Francis' Primary School in Lurgan, for example, which has more than 810 pupils, needs a fob system to be fitted to its entrance and exit doors. The school also has a faulty heating system, which leaks, and mobile classrooms that are 20 square metres smaller than the newer ones provided nowadays. <BR /> <BR />I think, from my discussions with principals, that there is a disconnect between the Education Authority and some schools when it comes to timely responses, decision-making and turnaround times.”
“That is the only thing that will help. <BR /> <BR />During discussions in the Assembly before lockdown, I asked the Minister whether there could be devolved decision-making on some small repairs, such as light bulb replacement, where a school principal could make the decision rather than having to go through a lot of bureaucracy and red tape. Some of this is, I think, about a new way of doing things. It is about greater delegation and devolving the decision-making on small jobs, as opposed to having to apply, two or three people then coming to look, accepting that the bulb has blown and agreeing to replace it. A bit of common sense is needed when it comes to small-scale repairs.”
“However, this has to be looked at again, and there must be collaborative working across the two Ministries to look at the particular needs of some schools. Interestingly, in Banbridge, just around the corner, Abercorn Primary School has two crossing patrol people at the bottom of the road, yet one cannot come round the corner to assist at Bridge Integrated Primary School. Maybe the Minister will have an opportunity to examine road safety there. <BR /> <BR />Other issues include long-running problems with blocked drainage systems, which is a particular problem for St Francis' Primary School in Lurgan, as is traffic management. Millington Primary School in Portadown has a leaking roof. It has been that way for some time and had several repairs over the years, but these have had no real consequence. It needs a new roof.”
“Last week, I attended Bridge Integrated Primary School in Banbridge and saw for myself the risks associated with the fact that it is situated in an area where there are a lot of new developments. There are five new housing developments in the immediate vicinity, and more than 418 children now attend that school. The entrance is quite narrow, and parents start to gather a good half hour or more before collection time and there is a build-up of traffic. Some children from P6 upwards want to be a bit more independent and walk home, but they have neither a road crossing nor a school crossing patrol person to assist them. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Nichola Mallon recently awarded some schools in the constituency funding of £2 million to introduce a 20 mph limit.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister will be particularly familiar with the ambition of St John the Baptist's College in Portadown to be able to teach at GCSE level. That development proposal had got through to the Department, and, as I understand it, it was going to the education committee at the Education Authority. However, because there were no meetings, that has been placed on hold, yet parents are canvassing for support from me and other representatives to get some surety around their children's future. That would be of comfort and would enable plans to progress. <BR /> <BR />Road safety is another recurring theme, both with dropping children off and with collection points. Earlier decisions were made to cut the number of school patrols.”
“The Education Authority occupies one of the buildings. For a number of months now because of lockdown, it has had its staff working from home and has said that they will be working from home for the foreseeable future. The school principal of Tullygally, Kirsty Andrews, and I have both written to the Education Authority asking for it to vacate the building so that the school would be able to use that building to help with some of the COVID mitigation measures. The Education Authority has refused to do so, so I ask the Minister to take that under consideration. The Minister will also know that development proposals have been put on hold as a consequence of some of the COVID work. Can he give a time frame for when those proposals might reopen?”
“By way of example on the cost of backlog that some schools are experiencing with their assessed needs, Lurgan Model Primary School in the Brownlow area has a £900,000 maintenance backlog. That is just one primary school in the Lurgan area. So, we are not underestimating the challenge that the Education Minister has before him in convincing the Finance Minister to part with some cash to help those schools. An example of a problem is that some schools have no hot water in some of the classrooms. Some of the mobile classrooms, which are quite old, are 20 square metres smaller than the new mobile classrooms that are supplied, and that is another worry for school principals. <BR /> <BR />I have written recently to the Minister, and hopefully he will have received my call for his assistance and intervention with Tullygally Primary School.”
“During this debate, I want to highlight some common threads. In preparing for the debate, I reached out to all the schools in the Upper Bann constituency and examined the responses. I found that there were a number of common themes in those responses. I will begin by taking those and using the examples from the experience of some schools in relation to the particular circumstances that some of them find themselves in. <BR /> <BR />I will start with the backlog of maintenance. There is a particular worry around trying to apply the measures to mitigate COVID restrictions. I ask the Minister to give an indicative time frame on catching up on some of those minor work schemes that have been agreed but which have not all been followed up on because contractors have been able to come on site.”
“Consequently, we are throwing good money after bad in trying to find solutions when a much greater level of investment is needed. Certainly, patching is not sufficient.”
“I assure my colleagues from Upper Bann and, indeed, my colleague from the Alliance Party that I do not intend to take the full 15 minutes, but I welcome their attendance, and particularly that of the Minister, for the debate. I think that we will all be on the same team in championing the needs of our schools in the Upper Bann constituency. <BR /> <BR />Fundamentally, we all recognise that, historically, school maintenance and our school estate have been underfunded for several years.”
“In the new working normal, if you like, I wonder about the opportunities for individuals, firms and businesses to access agencies such as Invest NI to discuss those issues. What plans does the Minister have for easy access and easy business, and the role that councils might play?”
“I thank the First Minister for the statement. As a former member of the Policing Board, you will be aware that policing and enforcement is a huge problem. You are essentially applying policing enforcement to a health crisis. Enforcement is also the responsibility of other agencies. What discussions have you had with the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (Solace), for example? To pick up on Mr Chambers' point, it is my understanding that the junior Ministers have a very clear remit to ensure that there is dialogue and early engagement with the police and others on how restrictions might well be enforced.”
“Thank you for that intervention. That point was made very forcibly by the two families; they are very concerned that perpetrators might give up the location of the remains at their first parole hearing. The parole commissioners should make a graduated consideration at any hearing. There has to be a strong message from the Chamber this evening.”
“The sooner that people get the message that their sentencing outcome will depend on their cooperation with the investigators, the better. That is a message that we need to give out, not only to support those families who are tormented daily but those —.”
“Any of us who are members of the Policing Board hear constantly about the Dark Web and how it is being used not only for sharing information about domestic violence, but about child pornography. The police are always, unfortunately, a step behind, although recently they have had some successes alongside their colleagues in the NCA and internationally. <BR /> <BR />I think that there has been something like a 60% increase in child pornography, online in particular, and, across my area, more and more children are going onto the child protection register in relation to a number of concerns. I think that it is right and proper that we try to get help to the children who need it and are at risk and that the onus is put on the offender.”
“Whilst the family of Charlotte Murray have got some level of justice, they very clearly do not have closure. <BR /> <BR />In her contribution on the amendment, Kellie Armstrong talked about landscape changes, how difficult it would be and the indeterminate nature of the sentence. Other Members have talked about the sentence not being human rights compliant if it were to be a condition on parole. The earlier that the perpetrator speaks up before there are those landscape changes, the sooner that not only the victim's remains could be returned to the family but the sooner the perpetrator will have done the right thing and can go to a parole hearing having done the right thing. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to forget to talk about child pornography and child identity, which is dealt with in the second part of the motion.”
“This is a continuation of that coercive control and power, and we are all being better educated, I think, thanks to the work around domestic abuse and violence and getting a better understanding of its forms, other than physical assault, that many victims of domestic abuse have to suffer. <BR /> <BR />We are pleased to be able to support the motion. I believe that it is the right thing to do. I think that it gives the right message, particularly to those who have been convicted. In speaking to the two families, particularly to Mr Dorrian, it was very clear that, as I have found to be common with the many interactions that I have had with victims' families, if they had to choose between truth and justice, they would want to go for the truth by getting the victim's remains returned. That says a lot.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I am grateful to the families of Charlotte Murray and Lisa Dorrian for taking time to speak with me and my party colleagues. I think that their physical pain is clearly seen, and I cannot even begin to imagine the emotional and psychological torment that they are experiencing. I also think this evening of the family of Arlene Arkinson, who I understand signed the petition and support this Bill. Her killer went to his grave keeping that secret. <BR /> <BR />The act of disappearing a victim's remains is such a heinous crime that I think it is still deemed to be a war crime under the Geneva Convention. Some Members have already alluded to coercive control, particularly in relation to the murder of Charlotte Murray.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will end on this point: we all have a civic responsibility, as others have said, around the public health messaging and about looking at ourselves and what we are doing to try to diminish the spread of this infection.”
“Simple things that can help to reassure people who are in distress, worried and who even want to know simple things like, "Can I collect my mother's night pyjamas", stuff like that and being able to be able to bring home and replenish toiletries and all of the rest of their items. How is all of that managed? From what I hear on the ground, the trust has a wee bit of work to do with some of the practical measures. <BR /> <BR />I also know that some staff feel that a lot is being asked of them by managers, without those managers actually experiencing at first-hand what it is like to be in the red zone. There is a need for some of the senior staff to step up to the plate and to go in and see what they are asking, and what we as politicians, others and the public are demanding of the nurses and doctors on the front line.”
“For example, there is an issue that needs to be addressed of people not having that occasion of joy at being present at the birth of a child. <BR /> <BR />From what I hear on the ground, there is a wee bit of clamping down and bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted. There are also issues with end-of-life care, letting visitors in and how that is defined. I know of one family who recently were not able to be at the bedside of a loved one at the end of life because of how that was defined. There has to be greater clarity. I have also had constituents contact me who have had problems with contacting the ward who want to know about the status of their loved one. <BR /> <BR />I know that staff are run off their feet, but there are some management issues that need to be addressed.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know that infection control has worked really hard and I hope that, in any review, staff are consulted on what they think needs to be done. Craigavon Area Hospital is an award-winning hospital for infection control. I know that this is a very unusual pandemic and we are still learning about the disease itself, but something has happened for it to go from being an award-winning hospital to one in which there has been a number of deaths and people infected whilst in the hospital. There must be answers and reassurance must be given. <BR /> <BR />In the brief time available to me, Minister, I want to draw your attention to relatives and the clamp down on people visiting. That is also having an impact.”
“There is a huge communication and confidence-building issue that needs to be addressed by the trust. Other Members commented on the imperative of getting answers and giving reassurance to families, which, hopefully, the investigation will bring. <BR /> <BR />I want to concentrate on the staff as well as the people attending. It is my understanding that many staff are very distressed, not only about the outbreak of the pandemic but about the second spike that is coming and the implications for them and their families. I have family members who have to gown up and wear all the uncomfortable gear to protect themselves and others. As Members will know, doctors and nurses suffer outbreaks on their skin. There is a huge emotional and physical cost to the staff.”
“I thank Mr O'Dowd for securing the debate this evening. It is to be welcomed that the Minister is here to respond. Like Mrs Dodds, the Minister has my support. I am sure that he has had many sleepless nights over trying to deal with this pandemic and, in particular, in dealing with grieving families and staff on the front line. I place on record my sincere condolences to the people who have lost loved ones, both in Craigavon and Daisy Hill. It is not only the loss of a loved one but the whole rite of funerals and grieving, some of which has also been stolen. Mrs Dodds is right to point out that people need security about feeling safe when someone whom they know and love has to go to hospital. <BR /> <BR />It is my understanding that, so far, the emergency department has seen a significant drop in people accessing care.”
“Tackling criminality and paramilitarism is not just down to the Minister's Department. I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board. The Minister may be aware that the director general of the National Crime Agency (NCA) is due to give an updated report to the Policing Board in December. Will she support the Policing Board in calling for the NCA to start to target, in particular, organised criminal gangs that might be below the threshold at which the NCA gets involved in organised crime elsewhere? It is imperative that those resources are available to us.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I am sure he, like many of us, is dealing with personal independence payment (PIP) applications. If there is a delay in diagnosis, and yet the condition is so obvious on the demands that it places on carers, would the Minister consider writing to the Minister for Communities to accept a GP indication that the person is on the waiting list for a confirmed diagnosis for dementia? That would allow the carers to buy in additional resources to help them in their caring role.”
“I thank the Member for raising that point. There are increasing concerns about the level of elder abuse, which is quite often hidden. Therefore, I appreciate his very well-made point on checking in on the most vulnerable.”
“— the correct direction to families and carers to ensure that dementia sufferers' wishes are adhered to.”
“How many of us have been faced with people in our constituency offices who believe that wishes have not been presented in wills, and those wills have been the subject of family disputes? Sometimes, the law is not clear about the point of reasoning, if you like, at which a will can be made and adhered to. I have had to deal with at least two cases in which there have been disputes, and they will be fought in courts. We need clarity around the element of the legal system that relates to people who want to make informed early decisions, at a time, perhaps, when other people are trying to interfere in the will and testament. That must be halted. The Law Society and others are giving clear guidance to their membership about giving —”
“Support mechanisms have not been put in place, not just for families who are caring for loved ones with dementia but for day-care services, rehabilitation services and home-help services. We have not heard much about how health trusts are responding to the particular challenges of COVID by working with carers and supporting them and by giving a quality of life to those who are suffering from dementia and other illnesses. <BR /> <BR />Other Members spoke about the need for investment, as have I, but some of the asks from the Alzheimer's survey are not necessarily for big-money investments but are about things being done differently and about uniformity and consistency across trusts. It is, as Mr Gildernew said, about preparing and about people being able to get their diagnosis early so that they can make informed decisions.”
“We hear the stories of people not understanding why they cannot see their loved ones and not understanding FaceTime, but COVID-19 has also shone a spotlight on the social care sector, which is an area that has been neglected. In Northern Ireland, we are more fortunate, in that we have a joined-up health and social care sector, unlike in GB. Nonetheless, the social care sector in particular has suffered from a huge lack of investment. <BR /> <BR />I know that the Minister would be here, had that been possible, but I want to raise with his Department the huge problem that exists as we struggle to get back to some sort of normality or new normality over the coming weeks and months.”
“I have a friend who is having to care for her 69-year-old husband, who has received that dreadful diagnosis. That demonstrates the need to have tailor-made services. There is a lack of support services, particularly for people in the younger age groups, who may be only in their fifties. The majority of people in nursing homes or elsewhere in the care sector are in their seventies or 80-plus, however. That is a particular area of concern. As many know, people with Down's syndrome live much longer lives, thankfully, but some are also suffering from dementia in their fifties. That is another specialty area — a niche market, if you like — in which particular needs must be addressed. <BR /> <BR />I know that COVID-19 has had a huge impact on people with dementia and their carers.”
“I thank the DUP for giving up its slot today in order for the House to be able to progress, on World Alzheimer's Day, this cross-party motion. As it is for previous contributors, the issue is something that is dear to our hearts. There are few of us who do not have family members who are suffering from dementia. In my case, it was my grandfather, who had presenile dementia. His symptoms started to display from his late fifties. That points to the increase in numbers that we see today of people with dementia in their fifties. Some, indeed, are in their forties. <BR /> <BR />Dementia has a number of different causes. There is vascular dementia, Alzheimer's dementia and Lewy body dementia, which is particularly nasty, not that there is any good form of dementia.”
“Minister, thank you and your Department for your diligence in giving clear messages. There is some confusion on school buses where there are other service users, particularly in rural areas, because some of our children and young people wear masks and some do not have to. That is probably because of the height of some of our young people. They may well be under the age for having to wear a mask but look much older. It is causing confusion. Therefore, Minister, along with the Education Minister, could you provide some reassurance to transport operators and service users?”
“Minister, I am sure that you will join me in wishing a speedy recovery to our colleague Daniel McCrossan, who would ask a supplementary if he were here this afternoon. Do you have an indicative time frame for the work that you outlined in your earlier answer?”
“I welcome the Minister coming before the House. I am sure that she shares my concern, but not shock, about the double standards emanating from Sinn Féin, a party whose senior figures are under investigation for alleged breaches of this very House's COVID regulations. Does the Minister share my concerns?”
“I just want to correct the inaccuracy. The First Minister and deputy First Minister clearly stated that they had to confer powers on the Infrastructure Minister to enable her to assist the taxi and coach industries etc, because the Economy Minister had failed to do so. I am fed up with this misinformation: the disingenuous nature of comments in the Chamber from others who ought to know better.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The issue of catering facilities, not just for members of the public but for staff in the Building, is something that I raised earlier with the Speaker, and I assure the Member that it is on the agenda for the Commission's meeting, with the Speaker's agreement, in two weeks' time.”
“I am happy to give that reassurance. A comprehensive risk assessment was completed and a report has been presented to the Commission for consideration at the next meeting, which will take account of all those findings. However, in the meantime, the Member and others are aware that the Assembly staff have put in place extensive interactive tools, including webinars. They are also looking at outreach and how they can provide an educational experience for schools. Work has also begun on extending the Assembly's website to include a virtual tour of the Assembly. Quite a bit of work has been going on behind the scenes.”
“I thank the Member for his question. In my experience, if Members seek to hold meetings with stakeholders and constituents, provided that they have completed their own risk assessment in relation to hosting that meeting in an office, there is nothing to preclude a Member doing that, if they let the booking, admissions and door staff know that they are expecting a visitor. That can be accommodated.”
“The issue of when Parliament Buildings can be reopened to the public, with tours, events and activities resumed, was considered by the Commission at its meeting on 29 July. Members agreed to maintain the current position and to reconsider this at its September meeting, which is likely to be held towards the end of this month. The Commission noted that no unnecessary risks should be taken that would increase the risk of exposure to staff, Members and Members’ support staff, particularly given the importance of the work of the Assembly, the already limited capacity of experienced staff, due to the high number of vacancies, and the likely increase in the volume of work anticipated in the autumn as a result of the EU exit.”
“That group has continued to meet regularly and, amongst other things, monitors advice from the Public Health Agency, the Chief Medical Officer, the Chief Scientific Adviser and others, and seeks to ensure that all relevant guidance is followed, not least to ensure the health, safety and well-being of those who use Parliament Buildings and, indeed, the wider community.”
“In addition to that, arrangements have been put in place to ensure the live streaming of Assembly business and the publication of information on the Assembly website and other social media channels. There has also been increased interaction with stakeholders and the delivery of some services using virtual communication tools. <BR /> <BR />A secretariat-led COVID-19 response group was established to ensure that the Commission has planned for and is ready to respond to developments in relation to the pandemic.”
“With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will group questions 3 and 5 together. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly Commission took the decision to close Parliament Buildings to the public from 9.00 pm on 18 March in light of the public health situation. The Commission decided that no public tours, events or visitor activities should take place and that members of the public would not have access to Parliament Buildings until further notice. <BR /> <BR />The Commission also recognised that the Assembly and its Committees would need to continue to meet to carry out certain political and legislative responsibilities, not least in relation to the response to COVID-19. As such, permanent pass-holders and those essential to the delivery of Assembly business have had continued access to the Building.”
“I take it that they will play a key role in the consultation and agreement on alternative sites. Can the Minister give some idea of the time frame for when that might be resolved?”
“Thank you, Minister, for your work on the issue. The rise in COVID at local level is of major concern to us all. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you said that there was ongoing communication with driving instructors.”