Steve Aiken
South Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, as well as the move to reduce the cost to the Assembly of vacant non-domestic properties and to increase liability so that we will not have so many vacant properties, you will be aware of the Dilapidation Bill and of the conversations that have been taking place in Wales and Scotland about…”
“Instead, that most dysfunctional Department, under the most inept Sinn Féin Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly and a series of grossly over-superannuated permanent secretaries, gave the money back.”
“We know that her Department spends more on legal cases, fighting judicial reviews and being chastised by judges for legal ineptitude and on vesting land and ripping out hedges and fencing and then trying to unvest it and paying even more money to put back the fences and hedges that it took out.”
“We can hardly blame the current permanent secretary, as she has just taken up her post, but, surely, her predecessors must bear some accountability or responsibility, especially considering the senior civil servants' salary scale of between £146,000 and £163,000, with, of course, their taxpayer-funded pension contribution of 34·2% — £218,…”
“It must be said that £181·3 million is a lot of taxpayers' hard-earned money. It is money that is raised from local commuters, vehicle owners, farmers, local businesses, logistics companies and, above all, our constituents — those vital people whom we are elected to represent.”
“The Minister will be aware that, under the public appointments guide published by the Executive Office, it is clear that she is supposed to take independent advice before appointing board members. What independent advice did she receive, particularly about the board members selected?”
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“I think that I thank the Minister for her comments. She will be fully aware of her earlier comments when we were talking about the important issue of prison officers' mental health and, particularly, how difficulties with that are due to their dealing with some of the significant problems that they have had around employment. I raised a particular question about occupational health, but she referred to the fact that it was an issue for the Finance Minister and not her. Where do her responsibilities for the Prison Service lie?”
“I thank the Minister for her remarks. One of the significant things that we on the Finance Committee recently heard from NICS HR was about the reform of the occupational health service (OHS), particularly for prison officers. The Minister will be aware that a considerable number of prison officers have had their career terminated as a result of problems with the occupational health service. Will the Minister undertake a review of those issues, bearing in mind the fact that the occupational health service has been shown to have failed and that we should do something about reinstating those prison officers, if they wish to return?”
“We should be in a situation where we are able to have redress and are not stuck with strict timelines that even our Cabinet Office cannot comply with.”
“That is not acceptable. <BR /> <BR />The fact that they came late from the Cabinet Office, which produced an explanation and what I would call a rather limited apology, is, again, not acceptable. We on the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee have tight timelines in which to deal with such regulations when they arrive. We have five days to look at them from when they first arrive, and there is a timeline of two months that starts to run down fairly rapidly. <BR /> <BR />When we look at where we are, we see that there is no method of redress if anybody gets it wrong. All Members should, rightly, be concerned about where we are in this situation. I call on Steve Baker, the Minister of State for Northern Ireland, and the EU-UK Joint Committee to address the issue urgently.”
“First of all, I thank everybody in the Assembly who passed on their condolences to my family on the recent death of my father-in-law. I thank everybody for that and for their good wishes. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk about what may sound like two rather arcane regulations: (EU) 2024/573 and (EU) 2024/590. Both regulations were laid before the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee last week. What is peculiar about them is that they were both delivered late to the Committee. First, they were delivered in such a way that, even if we had wished to, we could not have called for an inquiry into them, and, secondly, because of the rules and regulations set out in the Windsor framework, we could not have utilised the Stormont brake, even if there were a situation where those regulations had a significant impact on Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am sorry for my croaking, Principal Deputy Speaker. You will hear from me later, when, hopefully, I will be a bit better.”
“We want to see growth across the sectors, but to do that we need our workforce to feel valued. <BR /> <BR />The Economy Minister is either in Washington or on his way there. When he gets there, one of the things that they will be talking about is selling Northern Ireland as a great place to do business in the United Kingdom and selling those accesses. One of the things that many companies talk about time and again is the fact that we are seen as a relatively low-wage economy. We should be seen not as a low-wage economy but as a skilled economy. People want to come because our workforce is the best. They have the skills and the ability. We should not undersell ourselves, but, more importantly, we should not undersell our workforce. That is why the Ulster Unionist Party will support the motion and the amendment.”
“Many MLAs who are involved in the trade union movement get a chance to talk to the trade unions across the board about some of the key issues. The issue is not just the sense that rights are being undermined; there is a sense that not having trade union recognition is beginning to undermine not only people's ability to work in the labour force but their ability to adjust and move for better pay and conditions. The issue of conditions is important because, as has been pointed out by other Members, we must focus on issues like parental rights and bereavement rights. However, we must make sure that our workers believe that the Assembly has their backs. We must ensure that we are in a position where we can support our workforce. We want Northern Ireland to work.”
“By removing workers' rights, we make our labour market much less responsive to the needs of Northern Ireland. When zero-hours contracts are being utilised by not just what we used to consider the low-wage economy but the medium-wage economy, we see everyone from airline pilots all the way down to people who are working in hospitality and other sectors experiencing the problems with those contracts. Something has to be done about that across our nation. Somewhere in the United Kingdom, we should set down the necessary aims and objectives to make sure that we are pushing away from zero-hours contracts to strengthen workers' rights. If we cannot do that in our part of the United Kingdom, I do not know where we can, because we have the flexibility and the ability to do it. <BR /> <BR />I will talk more widely about some of the other rights.”
“I must apologise: like the Finance Minister, I am rather croaky today. As my spluttering continues, I shall keep my remarks blissfully short. <BR /> <BR />First, I declare an interest. I am a proud member of Unite the Union, and I fully support what it is trying to do, particularly when dealing with the challenges of zero-hours contracts and the diminution of workers' rights across Northern Ireland and all of our United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party supports the motion and the amendment. The Ulster Unionist Party has been clear — we have been on a bit of a journey — that the most important thing about zero-hours contracts is that they undermine the labour market; in fact, they work against what they were originally set up to do.”
“Some of the issues have to do with some of the lifts that have shown cracks and seem to be cracking again, Minister. Maybe the Minister should — as I am sure he will, because he is a diligent Minister — make sure that he is well informed and that his Department looks very closely at the equipment in the MOT centres and tries to gain an understanding of what else is likely to be broken and where the problems lie. One of the things that we are trying to do is to make our MOT centres effective, but they have to be safe places for the workers in them. That is something that we need to do and concentrate on.”
“<BR /> <BR />There seems to be a considerable degree of disquiet that, despite the fact that repairs have been made, yet again we are seeing them failing, and failing at a fair degree of regularity. These are significant issues for the workers doing these really hard jobs in our MOT centres, and we have to address these questions. I would like the Minister to tell us here today that he is happy with the health and safety of all the equipment within those facilities. If those mistakes are found, who is actually accountable and responsible for it, because, having had these repairs done at considerable expense, how are we in a situation where they have broken again and nobody is being held accountable for it? Indeed, why are we not taking the people who supposedly did these repairs to court to get recompense?”
“I thank the Minister for being here and Members for their contributions to the debate so far. Some of my constituents have been employed at the vehicle testing centre in Larne and have raised concerns about the safety standards of the equipment, the health and safety issues that they have faced and the fact that, with so many lifts and other pieces of equipment having been repaired, we are in a situation in which that equipment seems to have failed again. There seems to be an issue with quality control. As has been mentioned to me, Minister — perhaps your staff can address these issues — there are issues not just with lifts but with atmosphere control in the centres and with other forms of equipment.”
“Minister, you referred to Lough Neagh, and one of the major concerns about Lough Neagh is with the zebra mussel population. Is there anything specifically in how you will deal with water quality to deal with that particular challenge?”
“Yet, still no scrutiny has been done. That is far from an ideal start on the Windsor framework legislation.”
“I am sure that Members would agree, in the light of the recommendations of the renewable heat incentive (RHI) inquiry amongst others, that being incurious about legislative change does not make sure that we have good legislation; in fact, it means the exact opposite. Putting barriers, even seemingly limited ones, to our internal UK trade should be a matter of concern to us all. We have had no opportunity to scrutinise the potential legislative change. <BR /> <BR />Of further concern is the fact that the First Minister and deputy First Minister, acting jointly, were supposed to table an applicability motion for the new EU Act within a period of two weeks beginning from the day of notification, which was 21 February 2024. That date has passed. We now rely on another Member to bring the motion forward, which must be done by 19 March.”
“Two weeks ago, I raised the issue of EU regulation 2023/2411 — it sounds exciting, but it is not — the geographical indication protection for craft and industrial products. I remind Members that it is the view of the European Commission that that regulation should be added to the Windsor framework. Therefore, an applicability motion has to be voted for by the Assembly on a cross-community consent vote. The explanatory memorandum states that while, in practice, the United Kingdom Government expects that the implications on GB-NI may be limited, in principle, these could have implications for the movement of goods from GB to NI. <BR /> <BR />It is obvious that a degree of scrutiny on the legislation should be taking place.”
“We need to make sure that we invest heavily in the interrelationships between our businesses, our industries and our further and higher education sectors. More importantly, we need to reach out to our people to say that these are valuable things to do. We should all be out there saying, "You need to upskill and reskill". It needs to be a process of continuous improvement. <BR /> <BR />Some 125 years ago, we were the Everett — in case you do not know, that is where Boeing has its major manufacturing plant — the Toulouse, the Singapore or the Bangalore; that was here in Northern Ireland. The way for us to make it work again is to invest properly in our people and use the funding and resources that we have.”
“Behave. <BR /> <BR />At each stage, we must be able to retrain and reskill. If we are going to have three ages of training, we need to have access to further education and upskilling. That has to be available to everybody across the sectors in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />As Mr Nesbitt said, our party will support the motion and the amendment. We have an opportunity in Northern Ireland. We could and should be doing something radical. First, we need to remove the student cap. We need to increase the numbers of people — our greatest natural resource is our own people — we keep in Northern Ireland and give them the opportunity to stay. We also have to make sure that the funding that is available for upskilling is used for upskilling.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also need to be able to support our traditional industries in Northern Ireland, such as aviation, shipbuilding, vehicle manufacturing and construction, as well as the new industries of fintech, life sciences and cyber. We need to do that by buying into the idea of the three ages. Most of us will work until we are 70. Indeed, some of us are a lot closer to that than others.”
“The fact that we are not able to bring enough students to Northern Ireland has had an effect across the entire sector. It affects further education and everything that we are trying to do. It is not helped by, as has already been mentioned, the fact that the apprenticeship levy is not used as it is in the rest of our nation, particularly for improvements to education and training for apprentices. Only here does it go into the pot and not to where it should, which is to help to fund the further education colleges. Many of our industries have a lot of complaints about that. They see themselves as being doubly hampered by the fact that they have a skills shortage and, although they pay in for an apprenticeship levy, they get nothing out of it.”
“I declare an interest as the chair of the all-party group on science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and also as I am forming an APG on aviation, defence and the space sector. <BR /> <BR />Every time we talk to industry representatives, one of the key issues that they bring up is skills shortages. In northern Ireland 120-odd years ago, one of the big things that it had was its skilled labour and workforce. We did not have any natural resources, but what we did have was a commitment to the improvement of our workforce and, particularly, the addition of technical education. That is where the tradition of the apprenticeship came from, and it is one of the strong areas in which we need to reinvest in today's Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that we have a student cap in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for his remarks so far. In view of the funding that has been made available by the Republic of Ireland Government and the money that may be available through things such as financial transactions capital (FTC), has the Minister given any thoughts to fast-tracking at least part of the A5 and getting construction started early? One thing that has slowed it down in the past, as Members have mentioned, is judicial reviews (JRs). Can we get a start made?”
“Thank you very much for your remarks about the ongoing consultations on revenue raising. Other Ministers seem to have taken those off the table. If that is the case, can you give us a status update on which consultations are running and which are not?”
“I thank the Minister for her remarks so far. Will the Minister have a conversation with the chief executives of the banks around whether there should be some public service obligation on them to make sure that banking services are retained in our rural and hard-to-reach communities, rather than what seems to be their full-speed attempt to get rid of banking structures just for the sake of saving some money?”
“Furthermore, with future timelines of five working days for other matters that are due to come under the purview of the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee and the need for us to move accurately at pace, there is a need to ensure that our Committees start looking beyond the narrow remits that they have been given, and if the lessons of the renewable heat incentive (RHI) inquiry are not to be forgotten, we must stop being incurious and start critically examining the potentially fundamental changes in legislation that are beginning to affect us, starting with this protection of geographical indications regulation.”
“While the note refers to minor changes, those of us who have been in the Assembly previously may remember that the impact of the removal of only a few minor words from a piece of transferred legislation brought down a Government. Our party notes with concern that scrutiny of the legislation has not already been expedited.”
“The Chair of the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee has made clear to the rest of the Committee that our remit stretches only to future regulation, among other areas, as outlined in the letter that the Committee sent to Ministers the previous week. <BR /> <BR />In the light of that and the taut timelines required, we are concerned that insufficient scrutiny will be conducted on this new EU regulation, whereby, according to the explanatory note, it may downplay the implications for Northern Ireland businesses. There is, by implication, a possibility that it may impact on internal UK trade, particularly on the vital east-west dimension of our internal UK market.”
“Members will now be aware of the notification of a new EU regulation on protection of geographical indications for craft and industrial products. You wrote to Members of the Assembly on Friday evening, Mr Speaker, informing us that an applicability motion must be tabled by the FM and the dFM, acting jointly, to the Assembly within 14 days of its receipt. Members may not be fully aware that that applicability motion requires the cross-community consent of the Chamber for it to be added to the Windsor framework legislation. The notification, which came originally to the Clerk of our Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee, was not, as I understand it, originally forwarded to you, Mr Speaker, as it should have been, by the Cabinet Office, and there is a particularly tight timeline for it that commenced on 21 February.”
“We have here the Chair, Deputy Chair and members of the Finance Committee. We could give a commitment, if you bring it forward — I am not putting words in the mouth of the Chair — that we might expedite that to make it happen quickly.”
“Thank you very much. The Member makes a good point. <BR /> <BR />I will direct myself through the Chair so that I do not get misquoted again. The Minister's remarks would be a good opportunity for her to give a strong commitment to bring the Fiscal Council into a legislative framework as rapidly as possible, as has been indicated from her briefs and some of the things that her Department has said.”
“Does the Member agree that the issue has been support not being given to the Health Minister previously and that what we need now is a dedicated commitment from all Executive parties and everybody around the table to support our Health Minister in his difficult task?”
“It is a short technical point for our information. For the Bill to obtain Royal Assent, a statement about the Estimates has to be part of the information package that goes with it. If the Bill goes for Royal Assent but we are not going to get the Estimates until later, how are we going to apply those Estimates?”
“Minister, the point was that, when I was the Chair of the Committee, it was reported that that figure should not exceed £1 million. That came from the Audit Office and also — I think, but I would stand corrected — the Comptroller and Auditor General. Those are real controls that should be there. It is not a question of sole authority being used. Those are the kinds of things that we should be checking on to make sure that it is being run properly. Going above that figure is not acceptable.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She mentioned prison officers, and one of the issues that the Finance Minister deals with is Northern Ireland Civil Service HR. There is a considerable issue with prison officers, particularly with HR services that are being provided by NICS HR. Will the Member agree that that is one of the key areas that need to be sorted out? It is not just a question of finance; it is a question of leadership from the Civil Service.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hear your commitment. I would love to make sure that we will have the spring Supplementary Estimates. One of your officials told us today that we would have them by the end of March. I want to make sure that that happens, and I would like to hear from you a commitment that that will happen. If it does not happen — I have my concerns about that — we need to have answers about what we will do about that. Frankly, this is untenable, and we cannot keep on going the way we are. I wish you all the best, Minister. I will be supportive of you: you know that I will be. I trust you, but you need to get on with it.”
“Minister, I encourage you to be as open as you can or even to go the extra step. We should have the information that you have. If we are to continue to build trust and make sure that we have a Budget process and a Budget that is working, we need to know that. Our party will support the Budget, but we are doing that because I trust you when you tell me that we are going to fall off a cliff. I am doing that in good faith, because I do not know that. What I know, however, is that we have moved into unprecedented territory. When I say that we have a Vote on Account of 65%, that should scare the living daylights out of every MLA here, and it should scare the living daylights out of every Department. We are handing over a cheque for £18 billion, the details of which we do not know. That is not a great situation for us to be in, Minister.”
“We do not have that degree of information. If we are to do our job effectively, we have to understand that and do that.”
“The Health Minister tells me that we have real pressures, and I believe him. We have real pressures on teachers' pay, on public service pay and all over the place. We do not have any figures. I look around at the Committee Chairpersons, and nobody is saying, "Steve, you are wrong", or, "Will you take an intervention? I know what is going on". You do not. Feel free, please. Not one of them is saying that.”
“However, I need to be assured that you are getting the right information. Many of the finance spokespeople present were in regular communication with the Department of Finance up to Christmas. The parties that were likely to be in the Executive and, indeed, the Opposition were invited to those meetings. There was a large degree of clarity about the positions and pressures. Indeed, it was probably sufficient for us to start making a judgement about the real issues that we would have to deal with when we got to the Programme for Government. All that stopped just before Christmas. We are now through the next quarter. I cannot, in all honesty, say that I have a handle on where our finances are. I cannot see where the moneys are coming in and coming out. <BR /> <BR />I am told that we have real pressures.”
“Last time we had a look at the black box, it was £1 billion, which was, obviously, completely off the scale. This time, it is £28 million. Therefore, by a factor of 28, we are out on even the basics. The Minister's officials are here: maybe they could beaver away and come up with some of the answers on that, because, frankly, it is not acceptable. People who want to see Northern Ireland run well need to understand that the accounting processes are being done correctly. <BR /> <BR />Here is the situation. We do not know what the outcomes, the out-turns or the pressures are. All we are being told is that the whole thing will come collapsing down around us. We have been given none of that information. Minister, I trust you; I do. We should trust the Finance Minister with the finances to deal with the situation.”
“One of the reasons for that, which we saw with RHI and all sorts of things, is that we have no real method of controlling our public moneys. Time and time again, we are caught out. I know that this might be a spotter sort of thing — the learned Mr Allister KC is not here — but one of the things that we brought out last time is that, when we look at the lines in the budgets and accounts that come before us, we, like a good set of auditors, should always check the small detail to see if it adds up. One of the things that we used to look at is what is called the "black box". Some of you will not be aware of what the black box is, but it is a method of accounting procedures. The figure should be no more than £1 million. That is the maximum that it is supposed to be, as laid out by the Audit Office.”
“We have no Supplementary Estimates, even though, obviously, the Civil Service must have got the figures from somewhere. It is drawing money from the contingency fund, so it must know how much of those moneys there are. It must have ideas of what the budgetary positions are. We do not have that information, yet we are asked to sign off on a cheque for £18 billion. I will say that again: £18 billion. We are asked to sign off on that to keep our vital public services going. For how long? Is it for three months, for four months, until the summer recess or until after it? Do we know? We have not been given that information. We have to have that if we are to effectively help, support and scrutinise. <BR /> <BR />The people of Northern Ireland are, frankly, jaundiced — that is the politest word — about this place and what we do.”
“We are being told that the reason that we need to do that is the difficulties that there are in forming the budgetary process. One thing that I would like the Minister to address in her remarks — I think that it has already been raised by the Leader of the Opposition and other Members on these Benches — is the state of the discussions with Treasury. What is the state of the discussions that, you said, you were going urgently to have with Treasury? We are being asked to approve a series of budgetary positions without knowing what the outcome is likely to be. We have not been told what the pressures are and where they lie. We have been told that there are considerable problems, but we have not been given detailed information.”
“We are not setting out to deliberately trip you up. Trust me: I am not. I know what it is like, and I have seen the parlous financial situation that we are in. However, we are not in a position to help you unless you give us the information that we need. Bear in mind that, during the last short period that we were here, we, particularly in the Finance Committee, looked at improved reporting procedures so that there would be greater transparency. I do not feel as though we are getting any transparency at all at the moment. If you were being honest with yourself, Minister, I do not think that you could say that you were getting the transparency that you need to make the decisions that are out there. <BR /> <BR />We are being asked about a Vote on Account to 65%.”
“Normally, what would happen at this stage is that each of us would reach into the Supplementary Estimates and pull out figures to compare them with where we actually are and what we should be doing. <BR /> <BR />It is obvious, Minister, that you are aware, because you have been told by other Ministers and Departments, where the pressures and pinch points are, but we are not aware of that information. We have not been made aware of that information in the Finance Committee, and, from what I have heard from Chairpersons of other Committees — I have heard from the Committees for Education, Infrastructure, Audit and others — they are not aware either. Minister, if we are to make this work effectively, which we all want to do, we need to be aware of the information. If you have that information, Committees should have it as well.”
“I noted that you said in your remarks that there is a real concern about this because we are likely to run out of cash. The Committee had briefings from officials about concerns that the Education and Communities Ministries would run out of cash and the real problems that that would create. Last Wednesday, we were briefed by officials that overspend was somewhere in the region of £400 million and that they were having to reach out to take money from the contingency fund to help to pay for Civil Service pensions. There is obviously considerable concern in the Civil Service and Departments about our financial position. It should concern us all, though, that we have heard time and again that we are not in a position to compare the figures with the Supplementary Estimates.”
“I welcome the Minister. Regrettably, I will probably have to slip out in 10 minutes or so to our all-party group (APG) meeting. Sadly, you will have to step down from the all-party group, but I thank you very much for your work for the APG on science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) and everything that you have done. I congratulate you on your new post. I am glad that we have somebody in the role who understands science, technology and maths. That will be particularly appropriate. <BR /> <BR />That is probably as good as it will get, Minister, as you would imagine. As an ex-Chairperson of the Finance Committee, I have looked at the process today, and I am nervous about what has happened, as, indeed, are many of us who are familiar with what has gone on in the past.”
“As we all know, hospital stays are far from ideal for older people who do not need to be there medically. There is no easy solution, but one thing that will be critical to the sustainable provision of care is a stable workforce. That is why it is important that we all commit to improving pay, terms and conditions for the social care workforce. It is a hugely important sector, and it is clear that we can do more to support and promote it as a career. <BR /> <BR />Beyond the formal care providers, it is important that we do not overlook the vital role played by our informal and family carers. More than 200,000 people across Northern Ireland provide some form of unpaid care, and that number will rise in the coming years as the population continues to age.”
“<BR /> <BR />As has been said, the Northern Trust is one of the largest trusts, but it also has one of the largest and oldest populations. When there are pressures on adult social care, those challenges will be felt especially in the Northern Trust area. All MLAs, especially those in the Northern Trust area, are likely to have worked with many families who are waiting for a care package for a loved one. It is my understanding that the greatest level of unmet need for full and partial packages is in our trust area. <BR /> <BR />Care packages are critical in allowing people to remain in their home or return to their home after a spell in hospital. When there are challenges in providing packages, as there currently are, the impacts are often immediately felt in hospital settings, as discharges are delayed.”