Steve Aiken
South Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, as well as the move to reduce the cost to the Assembly of vacant non-domestic properties and to increase liability so that we will not have so many vacant properties, you will be aware of the Dilapidation Bill and of the conversations that have been taking place in Wales and Scotland about…”
“Instead, that most dysfunctional Department, under the most inept Sinn Féin Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly and a series of grossly over-superannuated permanent secretaries, gave the money back.”
“We know that her Department spends more on legal cases, fighting judicial reviews and being chastised by judges for legal ineptitude and on vesting land and ripping out hedges and fencing and then trying to unvest it and paying even more money to put back the fences and hedges that it took out.”
“We can hardly blame the current permanent secretary, as she has just taken up her post, but, surely, her predecessors must bear some accountability or responsibility, especially considering the senior civil servants' salary scale of between £146,000 and £163,000, with, of course, their taxpayer-funded pension contribution of 34·2% — £218,…”
“It must be said that £181·3 million is a lot of taxpayers' hard-earned money. It is money that is raised from local commuters, vehicle owners, farmers, local businesses, logistics companies and, above all, our constituents — those vital people whom we are elected to represent.”
“The Minister will be aware that, under the public appointments guide published by the Executive Office, it is clear that she is supposed to take independent advice before appointing board members. What independent advice did she receive, particularly about the board members selected?”
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“I thank the Minister for his statement and for meeting me and our new Deputy Chairperson earlier today to discuss the key points of his briefing. I am sure that the Committee will welcome the £149 million of resource DEL allocations as well as the £61 million of capital allocations, with Communities, Education and Health all benefiting. <BR /> <BR />A few days ago, at Final Stage of the Budget (No. 2) Bill, I referred to the possibility of unknown and undeclared problems in the Estimates that may have gone unscrutinised. Today we see an underspend of £400 million of ring-fenced DEL, all of which cannot be carried forward into 2021-22. I understand the explanation that that will not affect non-ring-fenced DEL spending.”
“I look at Members from every other party in the Chamber, and they are all asking the same questions: what is it about Capita that we do not seem to be able to wean ourselves off it, and what hold does it have over our Government, our system and the rest of it? Those are the questions that we need to ask ourselves and that must be addressed.”
“Anybody who knows anything about what is going on across the entirety of the public services will ask why we use Capita time and time again. Why do we use it across government? What is the hold that Capita has on our process that we feel that we have to use it time and time again? Even when it is manifestly failing and has been told that it is maladministering the system, we give it another contract and say that it can have other contracts across government. That needs to be investigated. What hold does Capita have over our Civil Service and our Ministers? I cannot understand why we allow that situation to continue. <BR /> <BR />I look at Mr Carroll, and he is probably thinking exactly the same thing.”
“We have to remember that people come to our offices not as a first resort but as a last resort. When they come to us, we have so much sympathy for the position that they are in. We also know that, once we get the form filled in correctly and get the case to appeal, there is a 90% chance that they will not have to go through any more trauma, because it will be sorted out. The fact that that happens time and time again should be completely unacceptable to the Assembly, but there is something more fundamental here. The Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO) clearly used the word "maladministration". Think about that: a provider of public services has been told that it is maladministering the process. That is not a one-off with Capita.”
“I thank Mr Carroll for bringing the Matter of the Day before us. There are two issues here, and they are substantial issues of which we as Members of the Assembly need to be fully aware. I pay tribute to a member of my staff, Leah Smyth, who is my constituency manager. Like nearly all our constituency managers, she spends a considerable amount of time dealing with PIP enquiries. If you look at the volume that constituency managers have to go through and the inexplicable positions taken when cases get to appeal, you will see that, nine times out of 10, the appeal is accepted, because, when the detail of it is looked at, it is clear that Capita did not do its job right in the first place. <BR /> <BR />The cost of this, above all to the people whom we are trying to help, is unbelievable.”
“What is the Minister doing to make sure that the Housing Executive stands up to its responsibilities?”
“The Minister will be aware that one of the biggest concerns is about the Northern Ireland Housing Executive's ability to keep a lot of the social housing for the over-55s up to standard. She will be fully aware that we have real concerns about ongoing issues with properties across South Antrim that were to go across to housing associations. The residents, quite rightly, did not want that; they wanted to go back to the Housing Executive. However, there seems to have been a failure on the part of the Housing Executive to catch up with its responsibilities and to maintain the properties, particularly those for the most vulnerable and those over 55.”
“You touched on quite an important point, because that £140 million is subject to ministerial direction. Now that we are moving out of quarter 2 and beginning to look at quarter 3, there are real issues. I see that the Chairperson of the Economy Committee is sitting behind you. At what stage will we realise that the Department for the Economy is not able to utilise that money for what it is supposed to be for? Once we do that, we can reallocate it. We are running out of time again for this money to be allocated and put forward. In particular, the Assembly should be concerned about the money being there under ministerial direction.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. One of his other roles is chairman of the Procurement Board. The concern that he has just raised has significance for projects such as the A5 and its viability, considering the increased costs and the fact that construction work has not started. Is the Minister talking to other Ministers to make sure that value for money is applied to all projects? There are real issues with the growing 2·5% or 3% inflationary costs. We need to keep a careful eye on that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. On the issue of corporation tax, large corporations and the rest of it, is the Member then advocating for increased corporation tax, well within the OECD level of between 22% and 25%, across this island?”
“In recent evidence to the Committee, the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) indicated that, with a one-year Budget, the legislature was simply along for the ride. I think that we are all tired, the Minister included, of being along for this ride for the Assembly. It is now time to make a change and, indeed, to make a difference. <BR /> <BR />We now begin to see a new way forward for this new key governance moment: the passage of the Budget Bill. In the meantime and for the reasons that I set out, the Committee is content that the Budget (No. 2) Bill should pass its Final Stage.”
“It might also produce reports that we can understand and to a timescale that works not just for the House but for everybody in Northern Ireland who is interested in how we manage our Budget. If anybody does not think that that is important, I say that we are dealing with somewhere close to £13 billion of public money. That is public money for all the people of Northern Ireland, and it should be of interest to all of us.”
“Why have most Members voted in support of the Bill at its previous stages? The answer is simple: the Department has advised that, if we do not pass the Bill speedily, public services might just run out of money. The consequences of money running out for vital things like health and education and a myriad of other important things are too awful to contemplate, particularly in the midst of a COVID pandemic. Thus, we are where we are: at the Final Stage of the Budget Bill. <BR /> <BR />The way out of this may come from the independent Fiscal Council for Northern Ireland. That body may be able to analyse public spending, compare allocations in similar jurisdictions and forecast what would be required over a financially sensible period, that is, three to five years or more.”
“It was also the case that, because of the way that the Bill Estimates are presented, it was difficult to work out, on some occasions, what questions we should ask; indeed, I would not be surprised if, lurking within the pages of the Estimates, there are unknown and undeclared problems that we have not properly understood. I also would not be surprised if the answers to those problems might be difficult for any Finance Minister to explain fully in this forum or for any officials to do the same for their Committee at the limited number of sessions at which the Budget is discussed. <BR /> <BR />We have heard a lot of complaints about the Budget process, many of which have been from me and members of our Committee. If it is so bad, why did we as a Committee support accelerated passage?”
“At other times, the issues have proved a little more intractable. In any event, I thank the Minister and his officials for the many responses that he has provided in plenary sittings and in exchanges with the Finance Committee; indeed, at many of our Committee sessions, we seemed to be permanently engaged, which is an appropriate place for the Committee to be with the Department. <BR /> <BR />The Main Estimates are several hundred pages long. The Bill has a number of detailed schedules where the cash and capital figures are sometimes combined. The descriptors for the expenditure in the Bill schedules are lengthy and hard to understand, and some officials also found them particularly hard to explain. Therefore, it was sometimes practically impossible to work out exactly what we have all voted for.”
“and accrued resources. Additionally, officials helpfully explained particular Budget lines relating, for example, to the Executive Office and the Executive COVID task force, amongst other things. Statutory Committees also asked questions of their own Departments. Important issues have resurfaced in the House, including the victims' pension scheme, PSNI numbers, Northern Ireland Water and waste treatment capital spending, the delivery of universal credit and other matters relating to 'New Decade, New Approach' and to confidence and supply. I also thank the Committees and their Chairpersons, who have participated, often very eloquently, at the previous stages of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Sometimes, in such debates, we have had clear answers and secured important assurances from the Minister.”
“I thank the Minister for his opening comments. My remarks on behalf of the Committee for Finance will address the Final Stage of the Budget (No. 2) Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Department kindly provided the Committee with oral and written briefings in respect of the Main Estimates in the Bill. The Committee was also provided with clarification on a number of process issues in respect of headroom”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. We are seeing a delay in the justice Bill. She will be fully aware of concerns, particularly among those whom I call the new Northern Irish people. They see that the hate crime legislation to address their concerns seems to have been put back yet again. Can the Minister see any way that hate crime legislation, much of which is taken from other parts of the United Kingdom, might be put directly into the justice Bill, even at this late stage, to enable that vital thing to be done?”
“There are questions for both Ministers. <BR /> <BR />My main question is whether the Minister was fully aware of the issue when she received her first-day brief. Bearing it in mind that the procurement process was not in accordance with public contracts regulations, was not detailed in competition rules and was not transparent, the other fundamental question is this: why was the Department trying to defend the indefensible? There seems to be a pattern in the Department for Infrastructure of taking on legal cases that, it knows, it has no legal basis to continue with. There is something fundamentally broken that needs to be fixed and fixed early. Will the Minister answer those questions?”
“I thank the Minister for bringing this matter to the Assembly's attention. I declare an interest as the Chairperson of the Finance Committee and because the Minister of Finance now chairs the Procurement Board.”
“I thank the Minister for setting out the purpose of and background to the statutory rule. I am speaking on behalf of the Committee of Finance. The Committee considered the rule on 21 April and again on 26 May. Members noted that it will amend the Official Statistics Order (Northern Ireland) 2012 to include the Education Authority, Invest Northern Ireland and the Labour Relations Agency as producers of official statistics. Members welcomed that measure, as it will require the relevant organisations to comply with the standards in the Statistics Authority's code of practice for statistics and thus, hopefully, improve transparency and understandability. The Committee therefore agreed to recommend that statutory rule 2021/127, the Official Statistics (Amendment) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021, be affirmed by the Assembly.”
“I thank the Minister for setting out the purpose of and background to the statutory rule. I speak on behalf of the Committee for Finance. The Committee considered the rule on 24 March and 12 May. Members noted that the rule continues the rates exemption for separate entries in the valuation lists associated with about 100 automatic telling machines in designated rural areas. Members welcomed the continuing measure as a way of providing much needed support for our rural communities. For that reason, I am happy to advise the House that the Committee agreed to recommend that Statutory Rule 119/2021, The Rates (Exemption for Automatic Telling Machines in Rural Areas) Order (Northern Ireland) 2021, be affirmed by the Assembly.”
“Thank you very much indeed, Minister. I go back to Northern Ireland Water and the issue about a Go-co. You said something important, which is that you have been trying to look at the hybrid model. One of the Committee's concerns is that there is no detail and understanding, particularly on what a Go-co should be. There should be a very straightforward explanation of how it is financed and how it presents its accounts, but we do not have that. Will the Minister ask the Department to provide the Committee with an explanatory note, particularly on Northern Ireland Water and its reporting positions? I detect from you, Minister, that you are just as confused as we are about Northern Ireland Water and how it manages, or does not manage, its finances.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way and for his remarks so far. I am sorry that I did not raise this issue earlier, but it is important. Has the Minister been taking guidance from, or has he been in discussion with, the fiscal council about its reporting requirements so that there is an agreed commonality of approach?”
“<BR /> <BR />In summary, the Committee is, to say the least, a little disappointed and somewhat underwhelmed by the Bill but is not opposed to it in principle. I therefore expect that Members will probably support the Second Stage and may seek to table amendments at Consideration Stage to make improvements to the Budget process. Following the Bill's passing its Second Stage today, I also expect to return to the House with a motion to extend the Bill's Committee Stage in order to allow fuller consideration of the anticipated amendments.”
“Initial answers revealed a fairly bewildering variety of NDPBs and public corporations all with different treatments, and that was even before we looked at the case of Northern Ireland Water. In our deliberations on the Bill, the Committee will want to understand which of those organisations are now going to be part of the future designation order. I understand that the Minister has made representations to say that all NDPBs will be part and parcel of the process. The Committee will also want to consider why the current income and expenditure votes need to be replaced by a vote on the net position only. Members will also want to explore and better understand Assembly controls around capital spending.”
“I am disappointed to tell you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, that the Department of Finance advised that, no, it could not guarantee that the Bill would provide more information but that the level of detail currently afforded to the Committee in the Estimates process will, at a minimum, be retained. That current level of detail, however, is massively inadequate. That is not an endorsement of the Department's Bill but neither will it tax the ingenuity of Members overmuch to devise amendments to the Bill to deal with the issue of the provision of information. It is just surprising that the Department has not already thought some of that through and brought more robust and comprehensive legislation before us. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also sought clarity on whether NDPBs would be affected by the Bill.”
“It appears to allow the Department to give directions on the preparation of Estimates and resource accounts. I think that the overall idea is to make one look more like the other so that at least there is a degree of commonality. The Committee has no objections whatsoever to that. The Committee asked officials whether that would lead to more information, more detail and more understandable explanations, particularly those that are provided in the Estimates. Members even cited the example of the Department of Education, where over £2·5 billion of spending currently seems to appear in a single-line request for resources in the 300-odd-page Estimates document. <BR /> <BR />We had hoped that we would get some more public granularity for that kind of spending, as that would help us all understand what we are voting for each year.”
“The Minister has heard us on many occasions pointing out the fact that Committees are not being provided with the amount of information that they need in a timely manner. <BR /> <BR />I would like to tell the House that the Bill will be part of a process of really addressing those concerns and complaints. I would also like to say that it will overhaul the creaking Budget process and help the Assembly to shed a keen spotlight on the rather murky corners of the finances of Departments and, equally importantly, the non-departmental public bodies. Although those bodies account for much of the Executive's spending, we do not seem to have a handle on how that is done. However, Minister, I do not think that I can. The Bill is described as being technical in nature.”
“I thank the Minister for his opening remarks and for the related briefing information that he provided to the Committee for Finance at its meeting on 26 May. <BR /> <BR />On a number of occasions, the House has heard members of the Committee and I lament the current state of the Budget development and scrutiny process. We have complained often about documentation being impenetrable, and we have railed against fiscal explanations that, quite frankly, most of us do not understand. I get the sense that most of the officials do not really understand them either. We have also criticised debates that are often ill-timed and therefore prevent members from engaging usefully in the expenditure decision-making process.”
“I look at the party to my left and say, "You should show an example to make sure that this never happens again, but there is a significant answer to these questions". It is not a question of just a mealy-mouthed apology; it has to be a full, clear and sincere apology for what that Member of Parliament has done to undermine the health message in Northern Ireland. Frankly, like most Members of the House, I find the actions of the so-called Rt Hon Member for North Antrim completely and absolutely unacceptable.”
“<BR /> <BR />With all those things, Mr Speaker, you would think that elected representatives across the Chamber and, indeed, across these islands would realise that we have a duty of care and a responsibility to ensure that we do not exacerbate situations. It is not as if we are out of the COVID pandemic situation. We now have the Delta variant, and cases are increasing across Northern Ireland. We are not out of the challenge. There are real, significant issues of which we are all aware. <BR /> <BR />The fact that a Member of Parliament — a "Rt Hon" Member of Parliament — would say such things and add to the grief of our Health Minister should be matters over which he should consider his position. However, at the moment, we do not live in the normal world of politics.”
“I thank Mr Gildernew for securing the matter of the day. <BR /> <BR />I was the person who nominated Robin Swan to be Health Minister before COVID struck. The job of Health Minister was always going to be one of the most difficult jobs in Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland politics. One of the aims that we set right from the beginning was that we were going to take health out of politics and put health first; indeed, that was the commitment from the party leaders then. Then we hit COVID and its significant impact on everybody in Northern Ireland. Not only has Robin Swann stood up for the Health Department and our health workers but he has been under real and severe threat. His life has been threatened. His family has been threatened. The PSNI has been involved.”
“Minister, bearing in mind what you have said, including about multi-year Budgets and the rest of it, can we say that the threat of top-slicing the Department of Health's budget is no longer on the table?”
“One thing that the previous permanent secretary of the Department of Finance said before she left was that there was a lack of a fast stream for bringing high-quality graduates into the Northern Ireland Civil Service to change it. In fact, I do not think that we have had a fast stream programme for nearly a decade. Is the Minister considering introducing a fast stream and, if not, why not?”
“In the meantime, I thank the Committee members for all their hard work so far and, indeed, the Committee Clerk and staff who have helped the Committee. I commend the Second Stage of the Budget (No. 2) Bill (Northern Ireland) 2021 to the House. I hope that, next time, we will begin to get it right.”
“There is much that is commendable about the Executive's response, including their support for the professionalism of our vital health service, education and other front-line workers. It is also correct to welcome the additional measures for hard-pressed businesses and families, which, it is hoped, will support the jurisdiction's post-pandemic recovery. However, as I said before, the Budget process, with its debates, Estimates and delays, quite frankly, is not satisfactory, Minister. <BR /> <BR />The Committee recently received evidence from the Republic of Ireland and Scotland that showed that there is a better way of doing this process. Maybe, on the next occasion when we debate these matters, some of those better ways will already have started to happen.”
“<BR /> <BR />All that having been said, the absence of clarity on some of the New Decade, New Approach and confidence-and-supply issues is regrettable. I am thinking particularly of the victims' pension scheme, which, like some of the above, appears as headroom in the Estimates. The Committee noted the departmental assurances, and the Minister's assurances yesterday, that at least £19 million of allocations will certainly follow for those many important expenditure items that have such significant community impacts. <BR /> <BR />2020-21 was a very unusual year, with a global pandemic challenging many aspects of the governance of Northern Ireland, including the Budget process.”
“Anybody who is aware of the challenge of PTSD knows that that issue should not be looked at lightly, and, indeed, I think that Justice and Finance will have a close interest in that area. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Education welcomed the commitment to a childcare strategy but urged the Department to seek additional funding to address children's mental health waiting lists. The Committee for the Executive Office again sought clarity on the victims' pension scheme. <BR /> <BR />Much of the feedback from Committees is generally positive and refers to some of the concerns that surfaced at previous debates and are now being addressed, at least in part. That has been helped, as we have seen from comments in the press today, by the more than £6·2 billion that came from our Exchequer to Northern Ireland to help us through the COVID crisis.”
“We look forward to finding out how we are going to get Northern Ireland Water on to a sustainable basis, because the challenges that we have with waste water in Northern Ireland are acting as a real drag on our economy and on our ability to get ourselves out of COVID-19 and to reboot Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Justice now sounds a little more hopeful about the trajectory of PSNI numbers but has important medium-term concerns about the Prison Service and support for rehabilitation services. There may be other issues on the Civil Service Injury Benefit Scheme that both Justice and Finance will have an interest in; time-limited proposals and issues to do with mental health in particular were put to us.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee for Communities noted bids that were unmet, such as around half of those relating to support for the vulnerable, including additional welfare mitigations and support for the reform of the Housing Executive. However, the Committee warmly welcomed confirmation that additional universal credit staff will be provided for and recruited. We are also looking forward to seeing the detail of the plans for much-needed social housing. The sooner the Minister for Communities can bring that in front of the Assembly, the better; it will be much appreciated. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Infrastructure welcomed the allocations to Northern Ireland Water, which were mentioned in previous debates, but highlighted pressures on the Department to make the capital work actually happen with a challenging resource settlement.”
“Perhaps the Minister could also explain where legal authority comes from for accruing resources that are in excess of that which is set out in the relevant schedules to the Bill. That is another area that we need clarity on. <BR /> <BR />Turning to the substance of the Bill and the associated public expenditure proposals, the Committee gratefully received feedback from those Statutory Committees that, despite the considerable pressure of other work, have done their best, in quite difficult circumstances, to interrogate departmental submissions. The Chairpersons of those Committees — I see many of them here — will, undoubtedly, eloquently make reference to the pressures that their Departments face. I will, therefore, merely give the House a few key points.”
“I again anticipate, therefore, that some Members may seek to remedy the situation through a suitable legislative vehicle. <BR /> <BR />The Bill provides legal cover for the balance of the expenditure of 2020-21 that was not covered by the previous Vote on Account. I understand that the Bill refers to cash and resources and, indeed, accruing resources, which is income that Departments receive from outside the Northern Ireland block grant. However, the Bill, if I have understood it correctly, does not cover capital, even though that is referenced in the Main Estimates. Perhaps the Minister might clarify in his response where the legal authority for capital expenditure comes from, given that it does not come from this Bill, despite all the Budget and Supply motions that we have been debating.”
“The Committee understands from the Department that delays to the passage of the Bill would lead to an interruption to the funding of public services. Given that we are still emerging from a public health emergency, it is not surprising that members are unwilling to risk that. Consequently, the Committee agreed, I must say with considerable reluctance, to again grant accelerated passage to the Budget (No. 2) Bill. Mr Allister raised another matter, the funding of the Northern Ireland centenary, which, I have no doubt, he will raise and further expound on during the debate. <BR /> <BR />As you can imagine, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, the accelerated passage situation is a highly unsatisfactory outcome that, to some degree, replicates the experience of nearly every other year.”
“I will confess that, despite this being the Committee's second go at a Budget, members are still often surprised by what we learn from officials about all this.”
“It is a complexity with which officials and academics, not just MLAs and Committees, struggle.”
“As the House will know, the Committee for Finance is in a unique position, given its requirement to confirm the level of consultation on the public expenditure proposals that are covered by the Budget (No. 2) Bill. In that regard, the Committee has received oral and written briefings from the Department, participated in plenary debates, sought clarity from the Assembly's Research and Information Service (RaISe) — I thank RaISe for the work that it has done — and commissioned feedback from other Statutory Committees on the 2021-22 public expenditure proposals. Despite all of that, it is still a struggle to understand the complex data, to appreciate the assumptions that underpin the Budget process and to get to grips with the methodology by which public expenditure decisions are made.”
“I thank the Minister for his opening comments. My remarks on behalf of the Committee for Finance will address the Second Stage of the Budget (No. 2) Bill. With your indulgence, however, Mr Speaker, I would like to comment briefly on the question of accelerated passage.”
“I thank the Minister for his remarks. I assure him that the Finance Committee will endeavour to do everything that it can to put the fiscal council on a legislative footing during this term. All Committee members realise that such legislation is vital, and we must get it through.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. One of the issues is that a six-month call needs to be made to the providers of medicines that are coming to Northern Ireland. We are now past the halfway mark of this year. Does the Member agree with me that, because of the Northern Ireland protocol, there are real concerns about the future security of medicine supplies to Northern Ireland?”