Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“I welcome the Minister's statement. I particularly welcome the fact that he will lift that pause, as a number of schools in my area have been paused that are already in contract. <BR /> <BR />In relation to special educational needs, I do not need to say it, as he has already outlined the challenges that we have, but I ask the Minister to consider coming to Sperrinview Special School. It is an excellent school that provides excellent services for the children who can get into it, but, at this time, the school cannot accommodate all the children who want to go there. I would appreciate an update from him on his plans around Sperrinview.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, there are massive challenges ahead, not least the huge budget pressures facing all the Departments, but we are determined to work in partnership with you in addressing those challenges and in delivering the necessary legislative change in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />I wish you well in the important role of Justice Minister that begins today.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I congratulate you on your new role. <BR /> <BR />I support the appointment of Naomi Long to the position of Justice Minister in the Assembly. Sinn Féin is absolutely committed to working with you as Justice Minister, as we have in the past, and with all parties and every section of our community to deliver progressive change in our justice system. <BR /> <BR />The issues of justice, policing and community safety go right to the core of who we all are as human beings. We all want to feel safe in our homes and communities. We all should have the right to expect that that will be the case. We should have the right to expect that those tasked with administering justice will be there for us, without fear or favour, when that support is needed.”
“I thank Alan Chambers for bringing the Bill to the House, and I thank all those who have supported it. I am delighted that this is the final thing that we will do in the Assembly mandate. <BR /> <BR />As the previous contributor said, a Cheann Comhairle, I wish you all the very best. Speaking not only as a party colleague but as somebody who has been in the Chamber over the past number of years, I think that you have done your job in a very fair manner, even if that meant telling me when I had said enough or had stepped out of line. That is what being a good Speaker is all about. We could not have asked for any better than you.”
“While it is only one small part of the jigsaw, it is an important part, and it shows, on our behalf, that we really want to do the right thing for every one of them.”
“Today is about them. I think about all the victims and survivors to whom this piece of legislation means so much.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office said, one of the difficult elements of this is those who died. That will be a very difficult thing for us to deal with going forward in the inquiry. We will hear details that nobody will want to have to deal with, but I am glad that we are dealing with it. I am glad that we are doing something, today, that may possibly restore some of the faith that, I am sure, has been lost many, many times by those who went through those institutions in the state. I hope that they now have faith that we will do the right thing going forward, that the inquiry will deliver for them and their families and that they will get the proper redress and recognition that they deserve for everything that they went through as children and everything that they continue to go through as adults.”
“When we talk about legislation, we say that there is no such thing as perfect legislation and that it can always be better, but we certainly did our best to make this legislation the best that it could be. We have done good work to deliver that. <BR /> <BR />As other Members outlined, our thoughts are with all the women and girls, and their children who are now adults, who went through the institutions. Each and every one of them deserves to know everything about their life: about where they came from, who they are, what happened to them and why it happened. Therefore, all the information that is included and all the documents that will be preserved as a result of the Bill are vital elements to each and every one of those individuals.”
“I assure you that, from my point of view and perspective, we offer great thanks for that, because we know what it means to the victims and survivors. <BR /> <BR />I was messaged about an hour ago by some of the victims and survivors who asked what was happening with the Bill and how it was going. I told them that we were about to agree the Final Stage, that I had no reason to believe that it would not go through and that that would mean that the Bill would become legislation. They were delighted. For those people, we can feel proud that, as an Assembly, all Members across the House worked together to ensure that we got the best Bill possible.”
“Usually, I am delighted to join meetings via Zoom, but, on this occasion, I would much prefer to be in the Chamber, because this is such an important issue. I am pleased, proud and privileged to speak on the final item of business on the final day of the Assembly mandate, particularly given the item that it is: the preservation of documentation for those who went through the institutions. <BR /> <BR />Again, I thank Alan Chambers, who brought the private Member's Bill forward, and all those who have worked so hard on it, including everyone in the Department who worked with the Minister — as has been said — and, as has been highlighted, your office, Mr Speaker, and the Business Committee. The work that was done there to ensure that the Bill was brought to the House today has been phenomenal.”
“Let us look after women and girls who are at the most vulnerable time of their entire life. Let us also be kind and compassionate to those who do not agree with the decisions that they have taken. However, they do not have the right to threaten and abuse women who have made a decision, for whatever reason they have made it.”
“They should not be threatened, abused or shouted at when accessing a service that they badly need at that time in their life. <BR /> <BR />I commend Clare Bailey for the work that she has done and her perseverance in getting the Bill to this point. Well done. I commend all of the Members who support the Bill today. It is the right thing to do. As I have said previously, we have passed a lot of legislation in recent times around the protection of women and girls. This Bill is another piece of that jigsaw. It will genuinely protect women and girls, particularly at the most vulnerable time of their life. I hope that everyone who is elected to the new Assembly will have a very progressive and, even more importantly, compassionate attitude. Let us be compassionate and kind.”
“The issue is about where they protest and how that impacts on people and individuals, particularly, in this case, women who are going through some of the most vulnerable times of their life. <BR /> <BR />On many occasions, I have been clear and open in the Assembly that I am the mummy of one child. I waited a long time to have that child. She is the light of my life and the most important thing in my world. There are women out there, however, who, for whatever reason — I do not need to know what that reason is, any more than anybody else in society does; their reasons are theirs alone to know and understand — need to make decisions, with their family, about their life. They should never have to run the gauntlet while dealing with their decision.”
“Before my speech, a LeasCheann Comhairle, with your indulgence, I wish Trevor all the best for his future in whatever he chooses to do. I hope that he thinks that I deserve enough number-one votes to be elected for Mid Ulster. <BR /> <BR />I agree with much of what Trevor said and concur with much of his commentary on the issue. I want to make one specific point, which he also addressed, and that is on the issue of people's not being able to protest, have silent prayer or say what they want to say. The notion is being put out there that that is being stopped, but it is not being stopped. To be very clear: people will still have the right to protest. We all defend the right to protest of any group or organisation, regardless of whether we agree with what they are protesting about.”
“These people, very often, are in circumstances where they may not have a long life expectancy, so it is important that we deliver for them as quickly as possible. For the record, that is why I am glad that this Bill has been brought forward, through accelerated passage, to ensure the preservation of records. It was important to do so, and I welcome the support of everyone across the Chamber for Alan Chambers's Bill.”
“As Maria said, she has been diagnosed with severe post-traumatic stress disorder — not surprisingly, given what she went through. I also listened to Professor Phil Scraton, who has been excellent on this subject. We all know that what came out of the panel was excellent and is what we will, hopefully, deliver for all the victims and survivors of mother-and-baby institutions. If there is a way that we can include the children who were fostered out and ensure that they are included in the inquiry and redress scheme, it is incumbent on us to do so. <BR /> <BR />Rather than reinventing the wheel, let us deliver for these people as quickly as we possibly can in the most compassionate fashion that we can. They have been through enough. Maria has been through four cancer diagnoses.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will now refer to the last point that Paula Bradshaw made about fostering. I am sure that many of you will have heard Maria Arbuckle, and I have to say that this is not the first time that I have listened to Maria's story about being fostered and what she went through as a foster child. She speaks on behalf of herself, her siblings and others, and, when she tells her story, it is horrendous to listen to. It is very difficult to understand how anybody who would take children into their care to look after them and supposedly show them compassion and love and to look after children who have already been through some of the most difficult circumstances that life can ever throw at a child would then abuse them, let them down, neglect them and cause them serious mental, physical and, in some cases, sexual abuse.”
“can have that practice read into it. Furthermore, if that does not hold up, paragraph (d) allows the Department to make regulations that can specifically mention the public and statutory organisations that facilitated adoption and fostering. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that Paula Bradshaw has said that the Department has given some assurances on that. Given the work that the departmental officials and the Minister have done with us on that, I believe that their intentions on the Bill are good, so I am hopeful that we will get the right outcomes. On that basis, it is right and proper that the Member is not moving either of those amendments for fear of unintended consequences and because we believe that it may well be covered in guidance that will make it better in the long run.”
“It is my understanding from my reading of that subsection that the line:”
“Many independent adoption agencies were involved in the illegal adoption and trafficking of children, and it is important that that is not forgotten. However, I feel that that element may already be covered in clause 4(3) of the amended Bill, which provides that:”
“I think the same about this amendment as I do about amendment No 1, which I spoke about, and I fully support both amendments. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the other amendments, which are not being moved. Amendment Nos 4 and 5 were well intentioned. Their proposer, Paula Bradshaw, outlined their intention, which I think was right, good and proper for ensuring that we do all that we can to include everybody, everything and every piece of information that can be included. An important point is being made, particularly in amendment No 5, to remind us that children were adopted and fostered by organisations that were separate from the institutions, including state-run organisations such as social services.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 3 is, obviously, consequential to amendment No 1, and it, again, makes provision for the retention of records regarding:”
“That is an important amendment. As has been outlined, it recently came to light that the remains of residents, including babies and children from mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and workhouses, were donated to Queen's University Belfast for an anatomical study. Those records must be recovered and used for the upcoming inquiry. Parental consent was not required for those donations, so many families may not know where their loved ones were taken to, what happened to them and where they were buried. That fits into the wider issue of burials, which is covered by the Bill. The matter should be handled in the most sensitive way possible, as it is likely to reveal yet another tragic element of this scandal and how the state and institutions treated women and children.”
“I welcome amendment Nos 1 and 3, which, hopefully, will be included in the Bill. I put on record my appreciation to the proposer of the Bill, the Health Minister and the officials in the Health Department who worked with all of us who worked closely with the victims and survivors organisations, mothers and babies, and adopted children. It is really important that we get this right, so, given the short time frame, it is good that Members looked to see what amendments could be tabled to ensure that, as other Members have outlined, we do not leave anybody out but make sure that everybody whom it is humanly possible to include in the Bill be included and that all documentation that can be protected be protected. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 1 makes provision for records kept by:”
“I also place on record my best wishes to Sinéad Bradley in her future endeavours. I was — I still am — on one Committee with her, but I was previously on two Committees with her, and we worked well together. All of us, as a Committee, worked well together, particularly on the domestic abuse legislation, and we worked with the Minister and her officials. I just place that on the record.”
“I say that to anybody in any educational setting. The teachers or lecturers will benefit from that, the children that they talk to will benefit, the children around them will see that caring nature and will benefit, and we, as a society, will benefit from all of that. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for bringing the regulations to the House. I again put on record my thanks to all the current and previous members of the Committee and the new Committee Chair for all the work they have done. I certainly enjoyed my time on the Justice Committee. We did a lot of good work, supported by the Minister and her officials and by the Committee staff. Like the Committee Chair, I place on record my thanks, because the staff on our Committee were second to none, and the work that they put in was second to none.”
“That child knowing that somebody cares, because the people at home may not care for whatever reason due to what is going on at home, can make a massive difference in their life. All of us who were lucky enough to grow up in a very loving, caring and supportive home will never understand what those children go through. <BR /> <BR />We need a more nurturing nature across the board, not just for children. Schools and educational settings are notified about domestic abuse incidents, but what is the benefit of roaring at a child who comes into school with their uniform not right or their homework not done? What is the benefit of calling them out in front of all their classmates? Take them to the side and ask them, "What is going on?", "Why is it not right?" or "Why have you not got your homework done?".”
“Everything that we do should be about nurturing our children and young people, because, in doing so, we will make a real difference not only to the life of the child but to the lives of the children around that child and to the attitudes of the people around them, who will see how to do the right thing. <BR /> <BR />The Minister outlined what seem like really small things. We often talk about the bigger stuff around counselling, support and the services that can often be very difficult to access, but sometimes it is actually just about asking, "Are you OK?", "Are you all right?" or "Do you need breakfast?", or saying, "You have not done your homework. Do you need half an hour before you go into class?".”
“That was raised with me as recently as last week by somebody who works for Youth Service, who said that the consent issue is a challenge, particularly in some communities with certain traditions, as parents would not give consent for that information to be shared with a school. In some cases, the control to give consent to the information being given to a school was being given back to the person who was the very perpetrator. The importance of what we are doing today cannot be overstated. <BR /> <BR />Everything that we do in the House that protects, supports or looks after the well-being of a child will come back to us as a society and as a community, and we will all benefit from it.”
“When I got on to the Justice Committee, I did the same, and I saw the opportunity to include the issue in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill. I thank the Minister and her officials for working with me on it, and the Speaker's Office, because we were concerned that it would not be found to be within the Bill's scope. Thankfully, it was. I thank the members of the Justice Committee, because every one of them without fail supported it. They saw that it would work to the benefit of our children and young people. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge that Peter Weir, the previous Education Minister, brought forward a pilot, and that was helpful. It also highlighted the challenges, because the requirement for consent is a challenge.”
“I welcome the regulations. The inception of Operation Encompass was the result of a police officer and a teacher sitting at a kitchen table wondering what they could do to make life better for young people who had suffered as a result of being exposed to an incident of domestic abuse, whether they were directly involved or witnessed the incident. That is where it began. <BR /> <BR />I was at a Safeguarding Board presentation at which its representatives talked about Operation Encompass and the challenges that they had in bringing it in in the North. I asked them afterwards what the issue was, and they said that there just seemed to be a resistance to it but that they were not sure why. I was on the Policing Board at the time, so I asked about it at every opportunity, putting it to the Chief Constable on a number of occasions.”
“I really hope that this makes it just a little bit easier for people to get access to records and to find out who they are, where they belong and where they came from.”
“It is very fitting that this is one of the final pieces of legislation that will go through the House. I have been the party spokesperson on victims since 2017. Every single MLA and party from right across the Assembly should take credit for the work that they have done; it is just very sad that we had to do it. It is very sad that people's lives had to be devastated and destroyed by the transgenerational trauma that has been caused to them, to their families and to the many generations that might come behind them. I hope that some of the work that we have done in this place will give some closure, although it is not that I believe that many people will be able to get full closure. I hope that we will at least be able to make those people's journey a little bit easier.”
“Like many others, Mary discovered that the date on which she had been celebrating her birthday for all her life was not her real birthday. Mary still does not know who her real family is. She is one of thousands — most likely tens of thousands — of people who have no idea who they really are. Care being provided by a relative of the child should not be grounds for exception, as it does not guarantee that the adopted person knows anything about their birth parents or about their time in the institution. Many children were trafficked overseas to America and Australia. Even if they were with a relative, that does not mean that they are aware of their natural parents. <BR /> <BR />As I outlined, I appreciate the support from the Bill sponsor, the Department and the Minister.”
“The reality is that, in many cases where babies were adopted, they were registered as the natural child of their adoptive parents. That was, of course, illegal and has made tracing the birth parent or adopted child almost impossible in some circumstances. <BR /> <BR />The issue was recently covered by an RTÉ Investigates documentary, 'Who Am I? The Story of Ireland's Illegal Adoptions'. The documentary included the story of Mary Dolan, a Belfast schoolteacher who found out, at the age of 54, that her parents — the couple listed on her birth certificate — were not her real parents. Instead, Mary's mother was an unmarried woman who gave birth to her in Dublin. Mary was illegally trafficked to and illegally adopted in the North.”
“Again, that had not factored in the reality of the institutions.”
“We felt that it was important that the subsection was removed, and I am grateful to the sponsor and the party that co-signed the amendment. The clause states that:”
“However, I am grateful that the Department accepted that it was unnecessary. Again, I appreciate that and put it on the record. <BR /> <BR />The time limit did not factor in the reality of the institutions, as children were often fostered out to children's homes for some periods before being returned to the mother-and-baby institution and being adopted. Adoptees deserve to know where they were, with whom and what care they received for any length of time, be it a week, a month or two months. Forced separation of mothers and children has serious impacts on both, and the ongoing denial of that information is a gross violation of their human rights, as recognised by the truth recovery design panel report. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 4 seeks to remove clause 3(6) in its entirety.”
“It is vital that victims and survivors can piece together a wide picture of what happened to them in institutions, why they were there and who knew what was happening. <BR /> <BR />We tabled amendment No 2, and it had also been tabled by the proposer. That is exactly what happened: the proposer listened to what was said. I appreciate that and thank him for that support. That will tidy up legislation in line with amendment No 4, which will remove subsection 6 of clause 3. I will explain the reason for that when discussing amendment No 4. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 3 seeks to remove the provision in clause 3(5) that a child is considered to be separated from its mother only if they were separated for a period of at least two consecutive months. I accept that there was no ill will behind that and that it was well intended.”
“I acknowledge the proposer, the Department and the Minister and their work. The way in which we have worked together is a testament to the issue. That is really important, and I appreciate that everything that I outlined last week was taken on board. That is a good and positive sign, particularly to the victims and survivors. All those suggestions came from them. It shows that we are very much about the issue in this circumstance and that there is no politicking. No politics are to be made out of the issue or the people. I really appreciate the work that has been done. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin will support amendment No 1 to include engagement with institutions by families, as well as those by women and girls who were interned in the institutions.”
“I am delighted for all the schools that are getting investment; there is no doubt that there is underinvestment in many of our schools. Your predecessor visited St Joseph's Primary School in Galbally. It had the foresight to amalgamate 50 years ago, and its numbers increase year-on-year. It is well oversubscribed and struggling for space. It also has serious health and safety issues — NICCY has reported on the matter — so can the Minister explain why St Joseph's Primary School in Galbally is not on the list?”
“People need to have access to them in order to know who they were. They need the records for a multitude of reasons, not least for their health and medical reasons, but mostly just so that they know who they were. That is a very basic human right. I thank the Member again for introducing the Bill.”
“I suggest that we consider removing that subsection, as, in many cases, when babies were adopted, they were registered to their adoptive parents as their natural child. That was, of course, illegal, and it made tracing the birth parent or adopted child impossible. Furthermore, the care being provided by a relative of the child should not be grounds for exception, as it does not guarantee that the adopted person knows anything about their birth parent or their time in the institution. <BR /> <BR />All those practices in the mother-and-baby homes were cruel beyond belief. They have had a long-lasting impact on the mothers — the women and girls — and their children. I thank the Member for introducing the Bill. Its importance can never be overstated. The records need to be preserved and protected.”
“Additionally, clause 3(6) states that information is not relevant if the accommodation or care was:”
“I suggest that we look at the removal of that subsection, as two months in care is a long time, and individuals deserve to know where they were and what care they received for any length of time. There should not be a time limit. Speaking as a mother, I remember, when my child was young, I went away for two days, and, when I came back, she cried when she saw me coming into the room. She was one. I thought that she was making strange, and my mummy said, "She is punishing you. You left her for two days, and she is letting you know by saying, 'Do not do that on me again'". I was distraught, and that was two days. When it comes to any mother or child being separated, they know, and there is an impact. We should consider that.”
“We know that that has been a horrific experience, and we have all heard from those who are looking for the burial sites of the people whom they loved and still love, yet they are not even able to identify where they have been buried. I express my gratitude to the Bill sponsor for taking account of that and incorporating all of that into the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Subsection 3(5) provides that:”
“Our amendment was also intended to include information about a person's life as a child at an institution; their adoption; any moneys, fees or donations paid for the stay of each resident; full personal records, including passports and visas; and any information regarding transfers to other institutions, including cross-border transfers. <BR /> <BR />We felt that perhaps the most important things that needed to be included were death and burial records. Some women and girls were buried in graves that do not have their proper names on the headstone, and many children were buried in locations outside graveyards, as the Church would not bury them on consecrated ground.”
“We felt that this provision needed to be as robust as possible and to include the details of medical visits to the institutions and any prescriptions, medical tests and vaccines that were provided. We recognise the need for records of any inspections carried out by the state, time spent in hospital by mothers and babies, a person's foster care arrangements, baptism records, parish registry records and personal communications or letters. <BR /> <BR />It cannot be overstated how important any information that can be recovered from the institutions is for the survivors.”
“Again, I thank the Bill sponsor. First of all, I acknowledge the victims, survivors and those who spoke to the Bill sponsor and me. I am certain that they also spoke to representatives from all the parties, and the Minister also met them. It has very much been a victim-centred process, and that is vital, because, if we did everything like that, we would have much better legislation right across the House and in everything that we do. It is important that we keep that to the fore. <BR /> <BR />I turn to subsections 3(2) and 3(3). I am grateful that, in drafting the Bill, the Bill sponsor has taken on board our recommendations to provide as comprehensive a Bill as possible.”
“I will abbreviate my comments and say that we absolutely support the accelerated passage.”