Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“Will legislation be required in order to ensure delivery for victims?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Minister, I appreciate that you have written to the organisations, but we are at a point now where we need to move a step further. You are relying on them to do the right thing. If there is a need for legislation or further moves in that regard, what are the Minister's plans? I wrote to you at the beginning of February, which is over six weeks ago now. I appreciate that your Department is under severe pressure, but I would have expected a response of some description — even an acknowledgement — at this stage. We have people who find themselves in a postcode lottery in tracing services, never mind the difficulties they have in accessing their own records and information. Will the Minister give some assurances on what moves he plans to make?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Has the Secretary of State indicated whether there is any intention to fund your Department in relation to the scheme, which would assure victims right across the North and across these islands that they will get payment when the scheme starts?”
“I appreciate that offer, Minister. Thank you. The Mid Ulster District Council area brings to the gross value added (GVA) here over £2 billion, yet Invest NI has not one single piece of land in the whole Mid Ulster District Council area. We are the only council area across the North in that position, which is with no lands for businesses to grow. That is a very serious situation for our council area and constituency. Will the Minister commit to meeting our council officials and me in order to discuss the issues and the challenges that face them in not only that but wider issues with infrastructure in the mid-Ulster area?”
“We need to be cautious when considering that, because insurance companies make billions of pounds in profit every year. They have not increased insurance premiums in England and Wales. I am waiting on information about Scotland, because its is the model that we are looking at. We should be careful about having too much consideration for insurance companies, which, we know, make plenty of money off the backs of us all, including businesses. It is unfair of them to suggest that businesses would be out more money in insurance when they pay plenty already.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. What is important in this legislation is that we will not set the rate; we will set the framework by which the rate will be set. It is important that people understand that this is the framework, and it is extremely important that we get it right for that reason. The Government Actuary will be able to change the rate, but it has to be changed within the framework. That is why we have to get this right.”
“We have to work with the Department and the Minister to achieve the right outcome for claimants and defendants but, most importantly, for the claimants who are waiting in serious positions in relation to the impact on their lifestyle and their ability to have a normal standard of life.”
“There are important issues to be dealt with in it, not least around domestic abuse legislation and the Gillen review. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we, as a Committee, endeavour to do this in as timely a manner as possible, but we will do it right, as we have done with every piece of legislation and every issue that has come before us. We will ensure that we do it right, and we will work closely with the Minister, the permanent secretary and the Department. Whilst the Minister has recused herself from this, she has not held back from coming to the Committee to respond to questions. She is in the Chamber today to do the same, and that is only right.”
“I am concerned that any delay in progressing it will have a knock-on effect on other legislation. That does not in any way diminish the importance of this legislation, but every piece of legislation that comes through the Justice Committee is equally important. We have the Criminal Justice (Committal Reform) Bill, which has big implications for the justice system. We have the Protection from Stalking Bill, which has massive implications for those who suffer as a result of stalking. The miscellaneous provisions Bill will deal with many issues and some of the important stuff. As I have outlined in the Committee already, my big fear is that, because the miscellaneous provisions Bill is so broad and takes in so many issues, it is the one that will fall off the edge.”
“All Departments have to pay out on claims relating to accidents that happen in councils or as a result of the condition of our road infrastructure. All of our Departments will be impacted, but there is no doubt that Health will be the most heavily impacted. We must ensure that claimants get 100% compensation: not more than that and certainly not less. That is why the Committee Stage is important. It will ensure that we get all the facts. <BR /> <BR />This is a narrow piece of legislation. That does not take away from the importance of the information that we have to gather, but it is a narrow piece of legislation, and we must endeavour to look at the issues as speedily as possible and to hear from interested parties and stakeholders as soon as possible so that we can reach a decision on it.”
“We are thinking about all of those who will be affected and impacted by the decision today. <BR /> <BR />As the Chair said, the legislation is extremely important. It is important that we get it right, and therefore the Committee Stage is extremely important. As a Committee, we have a responsibility to do this in as timely a manner as possible. That is what the Minister has asked us to do. I do not think that anybody on the Committee has any resistance to doing this in as timely a manner as is humanly possible, because we want to avoid the circumstances where we are not delivering for claimants or where the defendant overpays. We want to ensure that there is no potential impact on the Executive and, as has been outlined, on the Health Department in particular. However, this will affect all of the Executive.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing this to the House today. <BR /> <BR />I will not elaborate on all of the issues that were raised by the Chair of the Committee, but there are a small number of points that, I feel, are really important, not least the issue that the Chair raised about claimants awaiting the payout of claims that will make a massive difference to their life. I am sure that we all know people who are in that position, and it is not a nice place to be. It is a difficult situation even when you have the payout because, if you have the kind of injuries that the Chair talked about, no amount of money will give you back the life that you should have had; all it will do is help to make your life a bit easier. I am just putting that on the record.”
“I welcome the announcement that the scheme for the bereaved will be reopened. <BR /> <BR />The policy that has been developed around the permanent disablement scheme was developed in Westminster, and, according to their statement of funding policy, they have to fund it. I think that we are agreed on that across the House. I want to establish that we are agreed across the House that the British Government have a responsibility to fund the scheme and to fund our block grant so that we can meet the payments of the scheme, particularly given the comments that have been made around the fact that we can no longer afford to allow the victims to wait and to have the constant fear that the scheme will fall at the last hurdle and they will end up back in the courts. We do not want to see that.”
“It is important not only that the legislation is right but that it is passed as speedily as is humanly possible.”
“I am sure that the Chair, other Committee members and MLAS across the House are in the same position as me and have been lobbied in their constituency office because people are suffering as a result of stalking behaviour but we do not have the correct legislation to protect them. It is important that we get the Bill through its Committee Stage and through the House as quickly as possible. However, it has to be right. It is extremely important that we get the legislation that we put in place right. We must ensure that we have optimum opportunity for scrutiny and that stakeholders have the optimum opportunity to have their say and to come to the Committee in order to make sure that what we put in place is right for those who are at the centre of this: the victims.”
“I concur with the remarks made by the Committee Chair. We support the extension. It is prudent of the Committee to ask for the extension. There is no doubt that we will need it. This is an important Bill, with quite a number of clauses in it. If the domestic abuse Bill is anything to go by, the Committee will have some, hopefully, good and positive suggestions in relation to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I would like to point out that we in the Committee will endeavour to complete the Committee Stage with as much urgency as we can. We want to see this important legislation in place.”
“A number of Members talked about having a united approach yet then quickly went on to talk about all the ways in which we can divide. Let us therefore genuinely have a united approach. Let us back our Finance Minister in his reasonable, sensible and logical asks of the British Government. Let us support him in those asks, instead of making the entire case for the British Government as to why they should not or will not give the money to the people here who deserve it. I would put those who are awaiting payment from the permanent disablement payment scheme at the top of that list.”
“It is not because they do not have a bank in their village but because they cannot get to the nearest town, where there may well be a bank. <BR /> <BR />Let us look at all those issues with a wee bit of common sense and with an agreed and united approach.”
“I do not have any negative comments on that, but I will say this: I tried to get a bus from Newry to Cookstown, and it took me five hours to do that journey. A 45-minute journey took five hours. Let us sort out the public transport here before we look at building bridges to other countries. I am not ruling it out. I am just asking us to use a bit of common sense. Let us put a proper rail and bus network in place here. I am sure that many rural villagers could tell us about their experiences of not being able to get a bus service to the nearest local town. A number of Members talked about access to banks and services. Many of our rural constituents do not have access to those services because they cannot get a bus.”
“We are agreed right across the House on that issue. I have not heard one Member say that that is not where we want to be. We could not do it in our own homes, so I do not know how we can run the economy of our devolved institution without having multi-year Budgets. I know that the Finance Minister wants to get to that place. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of other issues. We can talk about roads and the lack of investment. I was disappointed that the Infrastructure Minister did not put in a bid, particularly for rural roads. I come from a large, rural constituency, and there are a number of issues. <BR /> <BR />I want to go back to the point about the bridge. A number of Members have talked about how it would be great, saying that we would be linked to Scotland and asking what is bad about that.”
“We will just say that we want money for everything, but we do not know where the money is coming from, and we will not ask the British Government for any more money. I do not get the logic behind that kind of conversation. Again, we could unite on some of those issues, because the Member is right: investing in sports stadia, education and businesses will all bring money in. It is investment for the future, and that is what we need to do, but, as the saying goes, "It takes money to make money". <BR /> <BR />We are not asking to get the same money forever and a day, but we are asking for investment to improve our chances of increasing our income and making a more sustainable economy going forward. We will have a better budgeting system as a result. We will get no argument from the Minister about the need for multi-year Budgets.”
“The British Government need to move forward with that: to bring forward the legislation, to put in place the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU) and to remove not only the financial responsibility but the toxicity of the legacy issue from current-day policing. <BR /> <BR />I want to speak briefly as an MLA for Mid Ulster about the issues that impact us. I want to pick up on what the previous Member said about education and the Department for Communities' issues that we want to see funding and finance for. There was a bit of hypocrisy in talking about councils not raising the rate and then asking for money for a sports stadium and all the other things that we want. He also talked about not pointing to Tory austerity. We will not point to Tory austerity then. We will not ask the British Government for any money.”
“Hopefully, we will see movement and be able to progress that issue and to give some assurance to the victims that they will get paid whenever their applications are processed. <BR /> <BR />We have had an uplift in the budget for the Office of the Police Ombudsman for historical and legacy investigations. However, in the wider context, the Budget is severely impacted by the fact that we have not progressed the Stormont House mechanisms. The failure to progress those means that the British Government are also not providing the money that was to come with them. That is having a massive impact on our Justice budget, because the PSNI is effectively picking up the issue without any additional funding from the Stormont House mechanisms. We need to address that again; it needs to be dealt with.”
“They widened the scope and increased the cost of the scheme. Therefore, they have to take responsibility for it. We need to get real and stop the grandstanding and the nonsense. It is unfair to the victims to put them in a position where we are saying to them, "You do not care where the money comes from". That is simply not true. <BR /> <BR />The Department of Justice has a responsibility to administer the scheme, and the Justice Minister has united with the Finance Minister and the Executive Office to meet the British Secretary of State to discuss it. I hope that we will get a positive response. Last week at the Committee, I asked for an update from the Justice Minister on where we are on this issue.”
“who are out there waiting on payments to have that battle. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members said that those individuals do not care where the money comes from. That is not true. In fact, that could not be further from the truth. The victims and survivors that I have met through the victims' forum and all the different groups and organisations that represent victims have all been very clear that they care about where the money comes from. They do not want to see it taken from the Departments of Education, Health or Communities or the organisations that are helping them and their families at this time. As I said, that is not a battle for them to have. We need to take the nonsense and hypocrisy out of the issue, address it as a united Executive and Assembly and bring our case to the NIO and the Secretary of State.”
“Whilst we can bat back and forth about where the money is for that in the Budget, the reality is that it is a massive cost and the money is not in the Budget. The Finance Minister — all the Executive, actually — have been very clear about that. However, that is an issue for us politically to battle with the NIO and the British Government. It is not”
“My contribution will be short. Hopefully, I will not delay you for too long. Thank you very much for bringing me in by StarLeaf. <BR /> <BR />I will speak as Sinn Féin's spokesperson on justice. I will not go into an awful lot of detail. I spoke yesterday about some of the challenges for policing and the Probation Board in particular, and for staff numbers in the Prison Service. Those were all talked about yesterday, and I do not intend to go into them again. <BR /> <BR />One of the issues that I want to pick up that comes under justice, although it is certainly cross-Executive, is the permanent disablement payment scheme. I thank Mike Nesbitt for his contribution on that. He really brought it down to where it should be: the humanity and the humanising of the subject. That is where we all need to be on it.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Does she agree that it would be better if the British Government were to give us money to address the underinvestment in our infrastructure over many years?”
“Yes. It falls to DOJ to administer the pension, but it is only the administration. The British Government are failing to fund the legislation that they imposed upon us.”
“We also have a circumstance whereby social workers in the Probation Board are paid less than those in the health service and other services. Again, that is unsustainable. We need to look at how we can work together to equalise pay. Is there a way in which the Department of Justice and the Department of Health can work together on social workers' pay? <BR /> <BR />As I said, the funding of legacy is a real issue. The real issue is the failure of the British Government, who have failed to bring forward not only the funding for agreed commitments but the legislation on the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU), which creates a knock-on effect in the PSNI budget.”
“The Probation Board has told us that the budget that it will get means that not only will it not have better engagement with victims but it will have worse engagement than it already has. If we were to speak to some victims, they would tell us that it could not be much worse than it is. That is unsustainable for the Probation Board.”
“I welcome the Member's intervention. However, I have seen time and time again — it was outlined by my colleague Pat Sheehan — that, when the British Government make commitments, they do not stand by them and do not fund them. They have done the same, as we have seen, with the legacy issue, which I will come to in a few minutes. <BR /> <BR />The Probation Board's budget represents approximately 1·8% of the Department of Justice's budget for 2021-22. However, its importance in the justice system has a much higher value than that. The upcoming resource for the Probation Board and the difficulties that it will pose are significant, as was outlined to us in Committee, particularly given that a number of commitments and programmes are being rolled out on better engagement with victims.”
“In October, the Assembly passed a motion that called on the British Government to provide adequate funding to take forward the NDNA priorities, including the commitment to enhanced local police numbers. It is disappointing that they have not yet done so.”
“However, I appreciate that the Chief Constable has outlined that neighbourhood policing will be a priority. I welcome that and have been given the same reassurances by the Department, to which the Chief Constable has also made that point. Neighbourhood and local policing teams have a key role in preventing crime and improving outcomes in many types of crime, including drug dealing, domestic abuse, paramilitary violence, antisocial behaviour, rural crime, child sexual exploitation and many more types of crime. <BR /> <BR />The cost of delivering the full range of priorities set out in NDNA is far in excess of the funding package provided by the British Government.”
“Additional funding was granted in 2021 that allowed some increase to the number of police officers, but, with the British Government still not providing the resources required to fulfil that commitment, we could end up in a farcical situation in which police officer numbers are reduced. Last year, when we had no Brexit, the British Government gave us £16·5 million in funding for additional police officers for Brexit, and, this year, when Brexit has happened — we have seen the fallout of that around security and, in particular, loyalist threats — there is a reduction in funding from the British Government for the PSNI. <BR /> <BR />I have shared my concerns with DOJ officials and share them here again today about the potential impact of such cuts on front-line services and concerns around neighbourhood policing.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is additional money to be spent before the end of the financial year, and, when inescapable pressures have been identified in the draft Budget and the current backlog of cases in the court system has significantly increased in comparison with pre-pandemic levels, more could be done to identify how that could have been addressed as part of the spring Supplementary Estimates. Speeding up justice is a priority for the justice system, and it is vital that the challenges that we face around case times and backlogs are addressed. <BR /> <BR />DOJ has identified inescapable pressures of £55·7 million, much of which falls to the PSNI. NDNA contained a commitment to increase the number of police officers to 7,500, as was outlined by Mr Storey.”
“In some senses, DOJ is different from other Departments in that a lot of the additional COVID funding was not spent on services or schemes but, rather, represents a loss of income that is not expected to be in place going forward, given the business recovery across courts. However, it is disappointing that an easement of £1·2 million in ring-fenced COVID-19 funding was surrendered, particularly considering the increased backlog of cases awaiting a court hearing.”
“The Department's budget overview and equality screening outline the potential impact of living within its budget baseline without pressures being met, including the potential reductions in police officer and prison officer numbers and an impact on a range of different services and plans, such as a hate crime review, problem-solving justice and supporting victims of domestic and sexual abuse.”
“I have no doubt that they have not had the support that they would ordinarily through the proper processes for wakes and funerals. There is no doubt that we will have to look at investing support and have some type of remembrance for those people who died during this time. <BR /> <BR />I support both motions as Sinn Féin's justice spokesperson. The wider criminal justice system has come under immense pressure during the COVID-19 pandemic, with restrictions and social-distancing requirements putting new and additional pressures on front-line services. The loss of the £350 million NDNA funding that the Executive received in 2020-21 means that the 2021-22 Budget will largely represent a standstill position. In real terms, it will represent a cut for most Departments, including the Department of Justice.”
“I am not going to go over the position that we are in, because other Members highlighted that we are in the middle, or hopefully coming out, of a global pandemic and the very difficult year that we have had. I want to attach myself to Mervyn Storey's comments about the families who have lost loved ones during the pandemic. Our thoughts are with them. Money and finances are one thing, and we need to deal with those and ensure that we recover properly in everything from mental health, education, our health and the justice system. However, for those who have lost loved ones, no amount of money will bring those people back. Our thoughts are with those people, and, no doubt, we will have to put services in place to support them on the other side of this.”
“I thank the Member for taking my intervention. I would like to challenge him on his statement about the party opposite not being able to spend money. I am sure that, like the rest of the MLAs in the House, he has had plenty of engagement with ExcludedNI, and maybe his own Minister will want to consider the money that was given back to the centre that could have dealt with some of those people.”
“— which purports to represent loyalist communities, although it looks more like it intimidates them — was inappropriate and does not give the kind of leadership that we would expect from a leader of unionism or this House?”
“Given the Executive commitment to tackling criminal gangs, including those masquerading as loyalist paramilitaries, do you, Minister, agree that the First Minister's meeting with the Loyalist Communities Council (LCC) —”
“It is disgraceful that the British Secretary of State has taken five months to respond to a request for a meeting with Ministers from the Executive on the issue, which is on a policy and legislation that he brought forward. Having said that, I am glad that he is now prepared to meet you, Minister. What will the potential impact be on other Departments? I absolutely support the payments to victims, who should not have to wait any longer, but what is the likely impact if the British Government do not step up to the plate on funding the scheme?”
“There were 17,500 responses to the consultation, which, anybody would agree, is quite a statement in itself.”
“I thank the Minister for that. I absolutely accept that the ombudsman's office should be independent, but it is a concern when a family has been told on four occasions that they will be getting a report but have still not received it. Will the Minister confirm whether she has received a commitment, or even an indication, from the British Government, the NIO or the Secretary of State that they intend to implement the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU) and all the legacy mechanisms that were agreed in the Stormont House Agreement by the five parties and the two Governments and which were consulted upon with victims and wider society?”
“I thank the Member for bringing the question to the House today. Minister, you have just touched on education. As I outlined this morning, my concern is that schools decide on what type of education they give around healthy relationships, and I do not think that that is a good way of delivering it. Is there any thinking outside the box on how we can do it to ensure that there is a uniform way to educate all young people about what a healthy relationship looks like? For example, there was a really good campaign called the "PANTS" campaign. It explained to very young children how to protect themselves, which was excellent. I spoke to my child about it. She was only three years old, but she understood what I was talking about. It is really important to get the information out to young people and teenagers.”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention. Does the Minister agree that we need a uniform approach right across our education system? Currently, we do not have that. Schools get to decide what a healthy relationship looks like, and that is not healthy.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. On her last point about the age of criminal responsibility, I call on the Minister to review that and start a piece of work and discussions with the Committee on the issue.”
“You could not describe the knock-on effect on both partners in a family where there are two people, the effect on their children and the effect on their mental health. Every element and aspect of their lives is affected, even to the point where they are fearful to be in their place of work. We cannot allow that to go on, so it is really important that we get the Bill through the House as quickly as possible. We on the Committee will certainly do our work as speedily as we can to ensure that this comes through the House as speedily as possible. I urge everybody to support this today.”