Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“I have faith in the Economy Committee to give the support that it can and to come up with answers. Some of the solutions are already out there. All of the issues can be overcome. <BR /> <BR />Confidentiality is a massive issue. We need to be careful with the messaging around confidentiality, because people do not have to be silent about this if they do not want to be. They should be given confidence that they have done nothing wrong. A shroud of silence is often what allows perpetrators to continue doing what they do. If victims want to be open and decide to tell their colleagues about what is going on, they should be given the support and confidence to do so, but, equally, they should have the absolute confidence that confidentiality is a priority to anyone whom they give that information to, if that is what they want.”
“I will not go over the points that other Members have made — there is no value in that — but I want the realisation to be understood: these are real people, and we have a responsibility and an opportunity to make a real difference. They might never see the courts or justice, but they will, at least, have the support of the Assembly. This is only a starting point, but we will give them support in every way possible to ensure that we make life better for the victims and the unseen victims — the children and those who live in those homes. <BR /> <BR />I ask all Members to support the Bill. I understand some of the points that Members have made about the difficulties, but I have faith in our MLAs, and I have faith in the sponsor of the Bill. I sincerely hope that the Department will give all the support that it can.”
“We have a lot to do in our education system and across every sector. We have a responsibility to make a difference, particularly in helping children understand what a healthy relationship looks like. We should support every child in that regard from before they come into the world. If we do not do that, we will allow it to continue be the transgenerational problem that, we know, it is.”
“Absolutely. I agree with the Member. It is for that reason that what we are doing now is only a starting point. The domestic abuse Bill was really good. This Bill will be really good, but how do we improve things? How do we make things better?”
“It is not our job to judge them for that; it is our job to support them. We must ensure that we allow the potential for them to get a couple of days' respite, if they can get that. <BR /> <BR />As has been said by a number of Members, it is not just the victim. In those situations, children are very often the victims: those whom you want to protect most in your life. I speak as a mother, and I am quite sure that all the parents in the room will feel the same way. Again, to not be able to leave your home or have a way out of those circumstances for a number of days because you have to go to work —”
“All those elements — every possible protection and support that we can give to the victims of domestic abuse — is what makes the whole package. <BR /> <BR />It is not good enough to say that we have a judicial process, because we all know how many perpetrators will ever see the inside of a courtroom, and, even for those that do, we know the statistics for the success rates. Some victims are just not strong enough to go through that process, so we need to put other things in place to ensure that they have the best opportunity to make their lives better and get the support to, potentially, leave their abuser. Some will never leave their abuser. That does not mean that they should not avail themselves of safe leave. They may never have the courage or be in a position, for whatever reason, to leave their abuser.”
“However, unfortunately, it was found to be outwith the scope of the Bill, and it came under the Economy Minister's brief. It is important that we have an opportunity to address the issue that was left out of the domestic abuse Bill. We now have an opportunity to do something that will support victims. We need to take that opportunity and grab it with both hands, because domestic abuse is not only an issue for the courts. It is not only an issue for the police. It is an issue for every single person. It is why we ensured that Operation Encompass was included in the domestic abuse Bill. I acknowledge that the previous Education Minister, Peter Weir, ran a pilot project in the run-up to the domestic abuse Bill going live.”
“First, I support the Bill. However, before I go any further, whilst I welcome the comments of Mr Butler, we need to acknowledge that we are not so far away from those people. As I have said in the House before, we need to acknowledge that nobody is above being either a victim or an abuser, not even the people in the House: nobody. Domestic abuse affects everybody, right across every sector of our society. If we do not acknowledge that, we allow people to believe that someone is above that or is outside of that spectrum, and that is not the case. Anyone in our society has the potential to be a victim or a perpetrator. For me, that is why this piece of legislation is so important. <BR /> <BR />During the debate on the domestic abuse Bill, we looked at the possibility of putting this in.”
“Minister, as you have outlined, you intend to upscale the roll-out of the booster vaccine programme. I want to ask about that on behalf of a constituent who contacted me. She is a 35-year-old lady who is 32 weeks pregnant and was advised by her GP and midwives that she should have the booster vaccine as she had her second vaccine in May. She said that she was going round in circles last week trying to see if there was any way of accessing it, because she falls outside the age range. Can you advise when she might expect to be able to get the booster vaccine?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Also outlined in the report is that one of the failures in speeding up justice is the lack of connected working and partnership working among the agencies in the justice sphere. Having had the benefit of being on both the Justice Committee and the Policing Board, I know that that is a real issue. I wonder how it can be addressed. I know that some work has been done, but that work is clearly nowhere near enough, given what the report has highlighted. Will the Minister respond on how we can improve on that?”
“If an alleged perpetrator thinks that they still have an opportunity to be found innocent, they may not be willing to disclose information.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement and concur with all the remarks that have been made with regard to the Murray and Dorrian families. I met them when I was on the Justice Committee, and the Minister is quite correct in what she says about the dignity with which they have held themselves. <BR /> <BR />Minister, in relation to the requirement on the Parole Commissioners to address how non-disclosure of a victim's remains impacts on the risk that a prisoner continues to pose, the motion that was passed acknowledged that such matters are already routinely considered. On that specific point, what has actually changed? <BR /> <BR />Where an appeal is ongoing, we know how slow justice can be in this jurisdiction. Is there a way to speed up those appeals?”
“That shame is not theirs, and they should not own it. Today, we need to ensure that we remove that shame.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. She is correct when she says that many of the victims and survivors will be watching the statement and the questions that we ask. Our thoughts are with all those victims and survivors. <BR /> <BR />Minister, I regularly engage with the birth mothers and the adopted children, and I engaged with them again over the past weekend. While they may have started their journey from the same place, their journeys are and have been different, and, therefore, their needs are different. Could we get some assurance that the needs of both those groups of people and their families will be fully met? Can you also acknowledge that the women and girls who went into the institutions suffered abuse, shame and stigma that they have carried with them through their entire lives?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. It may seem like a niche issue, but Mid Ulster produces 85% of the world's crushing and screening equipment. There is nothing niche about it. There is a lack of skills in Mid Ulster. Will the Minister commit at least to looking at the potential for a skills academy in the area?”
“A number of constituents have contacted me and said that their passport was not acceptable because it was out of date. This is the time when people are not renewing their passports because they cannot travel and also because they cannot afford to renew their passports. Will you confirm that out-of-date passports will be accepted, as they are by the Electoral Office?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. As an MLA for Mid Ulster, which has an outstanding independent retail sector, I am glad for anything that encourages people to spend local. I always spend local, and, after this scheme ends, I encourage people to continue to do that. However, there have been challenges and difficulties. The communication strategy here is the issue. You just talked about the seven days not being a cliff edge, but, if people do not know that, it is a cliff edge to them. It is important that the communication strategy be improved. It is not just about encouraging people to spend local. People need information on how to do that and how to access their card. <BR /> <BR />I have one more question, which is about out-of-date passports.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I hope that that reassurance will come to fruition soon. <BR /> <BR />The Minister spoke about the £17 million for rural roads. I am sure that she is well aware that, in rural areas, there are deep inequalities across access to services. Infrastructure is one of the biggest inequalities in rural areas. Can she give some assurances on what will be done to address that deficit in rural areas, particularly in my constituency of Mid Ulster?”
“— and the victims are, after all, the most important people.”
“We need to engage seriously, and my party leader has written to both Governments on that. We are supposed to have a real and thorough engagement around legacy. I have not seen or heard anything about it, and I am one of our party spokespersons on legacy matters. I have not seen any notes of meetings. I have not heard what has come out of meetings. All that I have heard is this perpetual nonsense of, "Let's have an amnesty". That is unfair. It is unfair to everybody involved. An amnesty has been rejected by all the parties in this House. It has been rejected by the victims' sector —”
“Mr Beattie talked to the fact that we should be careful of our tone in this debate, and I think that we should. Everybody should be conscious of that and be conscious of the fact that there are many people out there listening to us. We will set the tone for what happens outside the House. I have said it before here, and I will say it again: be very conscious of the tone that you set. <BR /> <BR />In the absence of what we had, all these matters need to be dealt with through the judicial process. We had the Stormont House Agreement, which was agreed by the two Governments and by the parties here. We had a process that may not have delivered justice for all — we know that it probably would not have delivered full justice for many — but it had the best possibility of delivering something for everyone.”
“I truly and genuinely believe that, and I do not understand why everybody else in the House would not feel the same way. In fact, I find it unbelievable that we would not all be saying the very same thing to anybody who came to us on any matter that is up before the courts. <BR /> <BR />In the wider legacy context, it is worth saying that, had these issues been properly and thoroughly investigated 30, 40 and 50 years ago, not us but those families would not be in the circumstances that they are in today. They would not continue to be dragged through the courts. A family were dragged through the courts as well: a family who lost somebody whom they loved. There are many, many other families like them, and I think that we need to be conscious of that.”
“First, this is a human tragedy, and my thoughts are with all the families who are suffering at this time, including the family of Dennis Hutchings. Let me be clear, however, that, in the House, our job is to make legislation. Our job is not to do the job of the Public Prosecution Service (PPS). Our job is not to do the job of the police. Our job is not to do the job of the judiciary. This was a judicial process, and it is not for us to interfere in that. <BR /> <BR />I know of many cases in which families have come to me because they did not think that they had been served in the best manner by the judicial process. I have had to say to them, "I can never, ever interfere in the judicial process. It must at all times be independent".”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will the Member agree that such is the PSNI's faith in the Office of the Police Ombudsman that it has referred itself to the ombudsman?”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. This question is in much the same vein as Andrew Muir's: what does the DUP's continuing boycott of the NSMC meetings mean for that funding? As a representative for Mid Ulster, I can speak of the importance of EU funding for my constituency, including my immediate area and the wider Mid Ulster area, right across the board, and particularly for infrastructure and education. What does the boycott mean for people who rely on that funding?”
“By way of background, a complaint was made to the Assembly Commissioner for Standards. The commissioner had to recuse herself as she indicated that she had an interest to declare. The Committee agreed that Douglas Bain will deal with the complaint. It is normal practice for a commissioner from another jurisdiction to deal with complaints in such circumstances. The Committee felt that this was the right way to move forward, rather than delaying the complaint by trying to put another commissioner in place. All members of the Committee agreed that this is the way to move forward.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Will the Member agree that, when those in youth services were giving out their food parcels, they were doing much more than that? They were checking on those children to see if they were safe. Very often, unfortunately, that was not the case, and they had to intervene in those circumstances. That was very difficult for those staff. It was very difficult to go out to homes with not bad parents but parents who were having a very difficult time.”
“I am also a wee bit confused. Are you seriously suggesting that in any other circumstance where individuals need to access healthcare, whether it is cancer services, IVF services or whatever, we would be having this same conversation? I do not believe for one second that we would.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. I am not aware of the PSNI raising any concerns about any training that it would have to undertake as result of the legislation, but if I am wrong on that, I am sure the sponsor of the Bill will correct me.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Does he agree that, first and foremost, what needs to be recognised by the House — this is where leadership comes from — is that it is a healthcare issue? If we talk in language that does not recognise that, we allow for that behaviour and for people to say that it is not a healthcare issue. We need to give leadership in the House.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Having sat previously on the Justice Committee and currently on the Policing Board, I can state categorically that the current harassment laws do not suffice. Does the Member agree? It is well and good to talk about restraining orders, but if you speak to people about why we needed the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill, you will hear that restraining orders were part of the reason. They did not protect women and families from domestic abuse of any description. If someone is successful in getting a restraining order, they will find, very quickly, that the person can have them back in court, and there is a cost to that. It is important that we have laws that protect people, and not just what looks good on paper.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. In light of the ruling, can you confirm whether you will ensure that DUP Ministers now attend NSMC meetings in compliance with the law, particularly given that we will potentially have a loss of £1 billion? That is essential money for our communities in relation to health, education and economic development at any time, but that finance is particularly essential coming out of a pandemic. Will you give us some assurance that DUP Ministers will now attend NSMC meetings in line with the law?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. Minister, when the report of the independent investigation into mother-and-baby homes and Magdalene laundries was published last Tuesday, you spoke of the incomprehensible pain and trauma inflicted on the women and girls who went through those institutions. You acknowledged that mothers had their babies taken from their arms and moved without consent across and between jurisdictions. Do you agree that, in dealing with the issue of mother-and-baby homes, we require a joined-up, all-island approach and that the NSMC would be an integral part of that?”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention and for addressing the mother-and-baby homes issue. I was at the launch of the report in the Stormont Hotel to hear what the panel had to say. In relation to access to information, I understand that the Minister gave direction to the institutions and those who may well have records to retain them. However, direction may not be enough, and we need to ensure that there is no destruction of records. I again appeal to the Minister that his Department brings forward an amendment or that he supports any amendments that come forward for the Adoption and Children Bill in relation to that issue.”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention and for coming to the House today. Given what he just outlined about delays, does he agree that, with the Bill, there is an opportunity to table an amendment to deal with mother-and-baby homes, on which a report will be launched today, to ensure that those who were children and are now adults and who are deeply traumatised have access to their own information? We need to ensure that issues are addressed for those adults who have been left with a legacy of not knowing where they came from or do not have the most basic information on their health history. Minister, will it be possible to table an amendment on that matter?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am not sure that I even looked at Mr Allister, but I certainly did not give anybody any kind of look. I clarify that for everybody in the Chamber.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will she acknowledge that there were victims of the conflict right across our communities, because it seems to me that she is speaking about only one of them?”
“Absolutely not. <BR /> <BR />We are well aware that the sponsor of the Bill is on a wrecker's charter, but I and all of my party colleagues are on a charter to unite our people and build a better future that must be based on inclusion. I sincerely hope that all of the other parties will unite with us in rejecting this regressive Bill.”
“We never go out to intentionally cause hurt, although I have no doubt that hurt is caused to victims of the conflict across the board by many things that all of us do every day. However, if that is not your intention and if you try to do everything not to cause hurt, you know that you are doing the right thing and are doing your best, which is all that any of us can ask.”
“I am sure that there are many who will say that of course I would say that as Gerry Kelly is not only my party colleague but somebody whom I consider a friend and comrade. However, many members of the Policing Board — not all but many — have said to me over the past number of years since I went on it — I am now back on it — that they agree that Gerry has made a positive and valuable contribution to the committees and the board. <BR /> <BR />I am conscious that this is an emotive topic for some victims of the conflict. I want to ensure that we deliver for all victims who suffered as a result of the conflict. We certainly do not want to use or abuse them in the Chamber in the way in which some seem to want to do. I will say for my part that, in anything that we do, we try to be as sensitive as we can.”
“That is really the premise of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I have served on the Policing Board with my party colleague Gerry Kelly. Regardless of whether you agree with the background that some of us have or the baggage that some of us carry, I can certainly attest to the contribution that Gerry has made and continues to make to creating circumstances where we have an effective and accountable policing service. He works to support policing even when it puts him and his family, as it does all members of the Policing Board, at risk from threats from dissident republicans, but he has not allowed that to deter him from giving leadership and working with others from all backgrounds to deliver effective policing for all of our community.”
“We work hard to do that. We work with all of the members on the Policing Board to do that. I guarantee you, from my perspective, my party's perspective and Gerry Kelly's perspective, that he does that to the very best of his ability. <BR /> <BR />We all know, regardless of our political opinion, that inclusion is the key to making politics work. It is the key to making this place work and to delivering for all of the people whom we serve. Exclusion does not work. It is the reason that we have an Assembly. It is the reason that we have the type of devolved institutions that we have, that we work in and to which we are elected by all of the people. We know that the Bill is here because the sponsor does not believe in the institutions. He does not believe in how they have come about, how they work or how they deliver.”
“In response to some of the comments that were made by Members earlier, including the proposer of the Bill, I say, to be clear, that I am an ordinary person. I am an ordinary girl from south Armagh who was elected by the people of Mid Ulster and am honoured to have been, just like Gerry Kelly is an ordinary man from Belfast who was elected by the people of North Belfast. In response to what Mr Stalford said, I say that I am Sinn Féin. I care about what people think. That is why I am in the role that I am in. I assure you — I am sure that every Member in the House will agree with me — that none of us does it for the fun of it. This not an easy job, but we do it because we care. I assure you that, in everything that Gerry Kelly and I do on the Policing Board, we do it to deliver for the people. We make sure that we do a good job.”
“We need to pay tribute to the whole GAA, and to my own county of Tyrone in particular, for the work that it has done and the efforts that it has made in the community throughout the pandemic.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is time that the BBC sat down with RTÉ and the GAA and found a way to ensure that every GAA supporter can see our games on BBC. The All-Ireland final should be a protected game, so that everybody right across this island, from whatever community or background they come, is able to see the GAA finals, because there is nothing like it in this country or — I would argue — in the world. Not many sports can fill a stadium with 80,000 people, and amateur sports at that. It is a very proud thing, for us as Gaels, that we can do that. <BR /> <BR />As I say, we are a family who support each other through difficult days. The GAA has done that throughout the pandemic.”
“<BR /> <BR />I pay special tribute to Paudie Hampsey. He is my neighbour, related to me through marriage and he captained the Tyrone team. He is a very modest young man, but he led that team to an All-Ireland final and won it. We are very proud of him. His club, Coalisland Fianna Oileán an Ghuail, is extremely proud of him, as the clubs of all those who played on Saturday are proud of their players. <BR /> <BR />Whilst this is all celebratory, I cannot let this moment pass without mentioning the fact that the BBC completely ignored that there were three Ulster teams in All-Ireland finals over the weekend. I accept that there is a broadcast rights issue, but the BBC has a responsibility. All the volunteers and players I mentioned are licence payers. They pay fees to the BBC. They pay the BBC wages.”
“Before I speak, as a very proud South Armagh woman and equally proud representative of East Tyrone, to congratulate our Tyrone All-Ireland winners, I wish to convey my condolences to the Hume family. <BR /> <BR />The GAA is a very close family. Right across the Thirty-two Counties, few homes will not have had an eye to the All-Ireland on Saturday. Whether you supported Tyrone or Mayo, you saw on that field young men who played the shirt off their back to entertain all of us. They are a credit to their county, their clubs and to all the volunteers who work in the GAA all year long, train the under-age teams, go out to the fields and pitches on very difficult days, get on with it, and take youngsters all over the county and the country. To those volunteers, I pay special tribute because All-Ireland finals do not happen without them.”
“Equally, it is important that there are parameters around statements and that people respect those; they should not try to play fast and loose, because doing that ends up damaging the image of this place and of all of us individually.”
“<BR /> <BR />On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I am pleased to commend the motions to the House and look forward to hearing Members' views. <BR /> <BR />I will make one short comment as an MLA. This is a positive move. The more business that we can have and the more opportunities that we can give Members to make statements and raise issues of concern to their constituents and people across the North, the better. Members should be given an opportunity to do that. There was consensus in the Committee. It was an agreed position, and that is a good thing. I hope, therefore, that there should be no issues today. It is important that we give everybody in the House the opportunity to raise issues that are important to them.”
“The Committee's report goes into greater detail, but, in summary, it concluded that Members should not be able to use statements to anticipate a matter scheduled for debate, to address a Question that has been decided by the Assembly in the previous six months, nor to make allegations about or attack another Member. <BR /> <BR />The Committee agreed to prepare a new Standing Order that reflects its conclusions. That is why there are two motions in the Order Paper today. The first motion proposes to amend Standing Order 10 to add "Members' Statements" to the list of categories of business to be conducted in the Assembly. The second motion is a proposal to add a new Standing Order, 24A, which reflects the Committee's conclusions on the appropriate parameters of the management of Members' statements.”