Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“The stalking protection orders and notices are vital. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I have dealt with a number of cases. In recent weeks and months, I have dealt with cases through my office. Obviously, I would much prefer that the legislation were in place now to protect those people. It is not, but we are moving in the right direction. I would love to be in a position in the future where, when somebody comes into my office and says that they are being persistently stalked and that the behaviour is ongoing and unrelenting, the legislation is in place. <BR /> <BR />Stalking has an impact not only on individuals but on their families. Often, families can be stalked; it is not always just one individual. The impact on families is unbelievable.”
“There was constant toing and froing, with the PSNI being called out and feeling frustrated. I have no doubt that the PSNI will welcome the Bill, because it will, hopefully, make their job a lot easier in bringing perpetrators to the courts more quickly. <BR /> <BR />As we discussed on numerous occasions during the progress of the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill, non-molestation orders do not cut it. As I said, they are available only by application to the court, they are often exploited by the abusers, and they are expensive. We have had long discussions in the Chamber and in Committee of the challenges around that, access to legal aid and all of those other things. We cannot allow perpetrators to continue to abuse by misusing the legislation that is supposed to be in place to protect the victims.”
“Crucially, the Bill introduces stalking protection orders and notices and interim stalking protection orders and notices, breaches of which will be made a criminal offence. <BR /> <BR />I want to highlight the challenges that the PSNI have with the current legislation in dealing with alleged perpetrators. The police are not able to deal with them quickly enough and do not have control of the issues or the power to do anything about them. They have to go to the courts and rely on judges. I can speak from experience, having dealt with a number of cases through my constituency office where alleged victims felt very aggrieved at the outcome when the cases went to court. Inevitably, the PSNI often ended up having to deal with further incidences down the road.”
“There was then, as there is now, a common understanding that the current laws were inadequate and that the absence of a legal definition has meant that the agencies have been unable to protect and support victims. It is regrettable that we do not yet have a specific criminal offence of stalking, but it is welcome that that is now being addressed. The legislation is essential in order to protect future victims of stalking. <BR /> <BR />Our party responded to the consultation in 2018, and I am glad to say that a number of our recommendations are in the Bill, including the new offence of stalking and greater penalties than those in place for existing offences of harassment.”
“Harassment laws do not accurately capture the heinous crime of stalking, nor do they accurately reflect the intense fear often felt by alleged victims — the fear that their stalker could be watching them or monitoring them at any minute of the day and that their every move is being watched and, sadly, the fear of the unknown and of what their stalker will do next. <BR /> <BR />In 2016 and 2017, as has already been outlined by the Chair of the Committee, the Justice Minister and the Committee made their own moves to explore the adequacy of existing offences. The Justice Minister commissioned a review of the law on stalking before the Justice Committee initiated its own review.”
“Stalking probably became most famous when Jill Dando was the victim of her stalker. The Assembly must commit to doing everything that it can within the law to disrupt stalking behaviour at the earliest opportunity to protect victims and to intervene to deter alleged perpetrators before stalking behaviour becomes entrenched. <BR /> <BR />Currently, people who end up in court on charges for what would commonly be regarded as stalking behaviour can be charged only under existing harassment and intimidation legislation. We have fallen behind other countries in that regard. Stalking, as a crime, is separate from and can be more serious than harassment.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing the Bill to the House today. As has already been said, stalking is a deeply insidious crime. People often hear the word "insidious" but do not know what it means; I did not know what it meant when I first heard it. It means when something happens gradually and often subtly but with very harmful effects. It is important that we understand that stalking is an invasive form of criminal abuse, with shocking side effects and consequences for the alleged victims. <BR /> <BR />Stalking can cause serious harm to an individual and their family. We know that, in some cases, behaviour that started off as stalking has, tragically, resulted in loss of life. That is, obviously, in the very worst cases, but we all know of those cases and where they have happened.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I also wish him well in his post, albeit that it is temporary, hopefully. This morning, it was remiss of me not to offer my full support and solidarity to the former Minister in his ongoing battle with his current health circumstances. I want to let Edwin and his family know that we are thinking of them and wish them all the very best for the future. <BR /> <BR />Does the Minister have any time frame as to when the PSNI update might happen? If some checks are taking place but not others, and if some staff are still taking part in checks, how will anybody who has made a threat differentiate as to which checks are taking place?”
“If people do not have cool heads, they should keep their hands off their phones. That is my advice to everybody. Be careful, be temperate, watch your tone and keep cool heads because we have big responsibilities to look after people here. <BR /> <BR />I sincerely hope that any threats made against any member of staff, at the ports or anywhere else, will be withdrawn immediately. We all have to accept responsibility for our tone and those whom we may influence outside this place. That includes me and everybody in the House, including the Members opposite. I ask you to seriously think before you speak.”
“As he said, we need to have cool heads, we need to temper our language and we need to know that the tone that we set in this place is what will happen outside. For us to not take full responsibility for that is disingenuous. What we say and do in here will have a massive impact on what happens out there. If people in the unionist and loyalist community do not feel that you are representing their views in this place, you need to speak to them, meet them, talk to them, listen to them and represent their views properly, in the proper fashion in the House and in a democratic manner. You should not allow threats to be made against staff or allow attacks on Stephen Farry's, Stewart Dickson's or anyone else's constituency office. It is not acceptable, and we all have to be careful. That includes social media.”
“My thoughts are with the members of staff who have been threatened and with Stephen Farry, whose constituency office was attacked and daubed with the words "RIP Good Friday Agreement". We all know that that is not the case. That is why we are here. I want to be clear that the source of the problem is Brexit. The Brexit that you argued for, the Brexit that you wanted, the Brexit that you paid millions of pounds to campaign for in the North and that lost the vote in the North. Let us be very clear. The source of the problem today — a real and live threat around getting food into this place — is the threat, not the protocol. <BR /> <BR />I thank Mr Dickson for bringing this to the Floor of the House today.”
“I intend to keep my remarks very short because everybody has said where we are with the matter at hand. We have a job to show leadership on the issue, which is about not only protecting ourselves and the staff in the Building but protecting the wider public. Many people are travelling quite long distances to come to the Building at a time when we are asking people not to travel. It is extremely important that we show leadership. As others have done, I thank the Chair of the Committee on Procedures, the Committee staff, the Commission staff and, of course, the Speaker's Office. Your job will not be an easy one, Mr Deputy Speaker, but we will certainly do everything that we can to make it easier.”
“Minister, we have been contacted by GP surgeries in the Northern and Southern Trusts — particularly the Northern Trust — that are saying that they are not receiving sufficient numbers of the vaccine to vaccinate the over-70s, the over-80s and the over-90s. Whilst, obviously, we have the programme for those aged 65 to 69, which is very welcome, we have that very vulnerable group who feel that they are not being prioritised. Can you let us know what you will do to address that?”
“Can she also give us assurances that we will learn from the mistakes that were made during Hart's historical institutional abuse (HIA) inquiry? Many victims and survivors were retraumatised, and we need to make sure that we do not make that same mistake again.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I will start by outlining that we should reach out to the women and girls to support them and to end the silence and shame; that is what we need to do. We need to ensure that all the supports that have been talked about are the right supports to end that silence and shame and to support those women and those who were referred to as illegitimate children. Let us be clear: there are no illegitimate children. Every child born then and born now is legitimate. Every child has a right to know who their parents were and where they came from. <BR /> <BR />I really welcome the assurances that the Minister has given that this will be victims and survivors centred and that they will guide us in everything that we do; that is vital.”
“The key to dealing with stress is to recognise the signs early, and early intervention is absolutely vital, as is prevention. We cannot prevent it in all cases, but early intervention is vital. Does the Minister's action plan include actions relating to early intervention and prevention?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I also thank the authors of both these reports. I welcome the fact that Siobhan and Gillian will be evaluating the progress of their recommendations; that is really important. There seems to be almost an expectation that stress is an inevitable consequence of working in the prison system. In the right conditions, staff should not have to think that stress awaits them and lies before them. I met staff in Maghaberry around October time — it seems like a long time ago — when things loosened up a bit and I could meet them. Meeting the staff without management was a really important process to give them an opportunity to highlight their issues and concerns. It also gave them an opportunity to tell me about the things that they think are working and the improvements that they have made.”
“I thank the Minister for taking the intervention. We often talk about the fact that statistics show that victims and survivors are mostly women. We also need to point out that the perpetrators, for the most part, are men, even when men are the victims.”
“We need to do that seriously, look at the resources that are required and support anything that comes forward on that resourcing. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill and everyone across the Chamber for their important contributions to all the work that we have done and during previous debates.”
“It is so important that they feel that they were part of it and that it will deliver for them. I know that we do not have everything in the Bill that everybody would like to have seen in it, but we are not at the end of the road; we are at the beginning. On behalf of my party, I commit to continuing to work on the issue in every Department and across the Assembly and the Executive. I know that my colleagues on the Committee gave similar commitments in previous debates and in Committee. I hope that we will all work together. It is not just about creating a Bill and having legislation on the books for the punishment of offences. We need to do the work that prevents people becoming victims in the first place and put in place all the supports and prevention measures that we can.”
“We all know that there is a severe lack of rape crisis centres in the North to offer specialised counselling, advocacy and support to women, men, girls and boys who have experienced sexual violence. There is an urgent need for a streamlined domestic and sexual violence advocacy service that caters for the needs of all victims. There is also a need for consistent and sufficient funding and resources to support services and organisations. <BR /> <BR />I will finish on this point. A few weeks ago, before we had the Further Consideration Stage, I spoke to Sonya McMullan of Women's Aid. She told me that the women who had engaged with the Committee and the Department felt a sense of ownership of the Bill. They felt that they were part of it and that they had helped create the Bill. That is what it is all about.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is also a need to reform the system on housing points, and I welcome the fact that Carál Ní Chuilín, when she was standing in for Deirdre Hargey, confirmed that the Department for Communities, on the back of the review of housing points, will bring forward a policy to ensure that intimidation points will be awarded for domestic violence. As it stands, you receive intimidation points if it is proven that there has been sectarian or homophobic abuse but not if you are the victim of domestic abuse. It is really important that points will be awarded for that. I welcome Carál Ní Chuilín and Deirdre Hargey bringing that forward through the Department for Communities. <BR /> <BR />There are, however, important issues in the justice system that are not included in the Bill.”
“Key to that, as we discussed during the Committee process and in previous debates, is the urgent need for a statutory entitlement to paid special leave for victims of domestic abuse. The Economy Minister must act urgently to do the necessary work to get this on the statute book, and, if it is not a priority for her, I encourage her to make it a priority. Our Committee colleague Rachel Woods is bringing forward a private Member’s Bill on the issue, and I encourage the Minister to adopt that approach, just as the Minister in the Twenty-six Counties decided to move on the back of a Bill that was being brought forward by my party leader, Mary Lou McDonald, and Louise O'Reilly. The Minister moved on that, and I would really appreciate it if the Minister for the Economy here would do likewise.”
“We know that, with some perpetrators, there is a cycle that has come from within their own home and their own family, and we need to break the cycle to give them better opportunities and outcomes in their lives. That is really what we need to focus on. As the mother of a 12-year-old girl, while I will teach her in our home, I think that it is extremely important that she learns in her school and among her peers what a healthy relationship looks like and what it looks like from both sides of that relationship. <BR /> <BR />There is also a huge role for workplaces and employers in putting in place effective workplace policies that can support victims and increase awareness in the workplace. As I highlighted, that includes this workplace — the place in which we all work.”
“As I was saying before Question Time, there is a huge role for the education system in building an effective curriculum, and I had asked and urged that the Education Minister create uniformity across our school and educational estate on the issue. We rely on school principals and boards of governors to decide on what information is disseminated to their pupils around healthy relationships and to decide on what kind of support is given. It needs to be more uniform, because, as I stated before we broke for Question Time, it is so important to prevent people becoming victims in the first place and, hopefully, to prevent people becoming perpetrators in the first place.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. For clarity, Brexit is the main cause of the problems that we are having, if we are going to be honest about it. <BR /> <BR />The conclusion of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement came at a very late stage in the day, and the Minister will be aware of the concerns that were raised by the Chief Veterinary Officer, Robert Huey, about the lack of preparedness. Have you had any engagements, Minister, with HMRC in order to provide better support for businesses, including, for example, a dedicated telephone helpline?”
“Will the Minister indicate whether she has a time frame for when the due diligence may be completed?”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a huge role for the education system in building an effective curriculum to teach children about healthy relationships. I urge the Education Minister to look at a model of uniformity across our schools. We are currently relying on —”
“I think that I speak for most Members when I say that we are all keen to carry out this role and ensure that we have the best possible protections in place, as quickly as possible. It is important that we get this right. <BR /> <BR />I have already outlined the important next steps for training staff in the policing and justice system and in getting the legislation commenced and implemented. However, a lot of work remains to be done in tackling domestic abuse. As outlined by the Minister, domestic abuse is a societal problem; it cannot be tackled by the justice system alone. As in all these things, prevention is always better than cure. We do not want to have to use this law. It is there for those who get to that point. However, we want to protect people from becoming victims in the first place.”
“I do not intend to rehearse the many arguments presented in the previous stages of the Bill, but I will highlight that this could turn out to be a very important step for victims. I thank my colleague on the Justice Committee Rachel Woods for bringing forward the amendments on this issue. Whilst there remains huge confusion around whether clause 28 will be recursive in effect and, therefore, whether the Minister will be in a position to commence this clause, clause 29 now puts a duty on the DOJ to bring forward new proposals within two years to reduce the financial burden on victims of having to go through court proceedings with their abusers. There is still a huge amount of work to be done in this area, and the Committee will certainly play its part.”
“<BR /> <BR />The DOJ is consulting on the proposals for the introduction of domestic abuse protection notices and orders. We are examining the proposals and will prepare a party response. It is important that everyone who has an interest in this responds, particularly those who have been most impacted. The present protective measures available to victims are not good enough and can often be difficult or costly for victims to access. Nonetheless, between 2016 and 2019, more than 16,000 applications for non-molestation or occupancy orders were made to the courts. That gives us some idea of the scale of this. <BR /> <BR />I am glad that the Bill includes provision for expanding the eligibility criteria for civil legal aid for victims of domestic abuse.”
“Police officers who are responsible for gathering and collecting evidence, along with prosecutors and the judiciary, must have a clear and thorough understanding of the behaviours associated with non-physical abuse. Effective and regular training will, therefore, be one of the most crucial aspects of the Bill, as we ensure that the PSNI, prosecutors and judiciary are supported in their efforts and are equipped with the proper tools to tackle domestic abuse. The Bill also includes provision for enhanced protective measures for victims of domestic abuse by enabling the Department of Justice to make regulations for steps to be taken or measures imposed to protect a person from domestic abuse. We now know that the Justice Minister intends to legislate for those, and I welcome that.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a former member of the Policing Board, I am well aware of the vital role that the PSNI will play in the implementation of the legislation. As has been outlined by the Minister and the Chair, and as we outlined in previous debates, the implementation of the legislation is important. The Bill will not be worth the paper that it is written on unless the implementation is right and unless we, the PSNI and all justice agencies fully understand our roles, what the Bill is about and who it serves. <BR /> <BR />It is easy to spot physical violence. It leaves marks, bruises, cuts and scars. However, much of the abuse that will form part of the new domestic abuse offence will be more subtle and difficult to spot. That is why the training will be vital.”
“I look forward to seeing the roll-out of that with the PSNI and the Education Department, and I greatly welcome the fact that the Education Minister has already piloted a scheme in that regard. I do not think that we can overemphasise its importance. It may seem to be a very small matter, but it will be massive in a child's life. It will also be informative to staff in schools. When a child comes through the school gates, or the gates of any educational setting, the staff will be thinking about what that child has been through or what they might be going through at home. The staff will be thinking about their responsibility to support them emotionally and look after them when they are there.”
“Operation Encompass is an information-sharing mechanism that allows PSNI personnel to communicate with a designated person in a school or educational setting to inform them of any domestic abuse incidents involving a pupil. It will help to safeguard children against the lasting effects of domestic abuse by facilitating the provision of rapid support within the school or educational environment by providing a secure and sympathetic environment for the child. Practical examples of that might include the provision of a hot meal, when the child may not have eaten, supporting rather than scolding a child who may not have completed homework, or emotional or psychological support for a child who is clearly vulnerable.”
“The new offence covers behaviour that is abusive because it is controlling or coercive or amounts to psychological, emotional or financial abuse. Such behaviour is used to harm, punish or frighten a victim, and it is designed to make a person dependent by isolating them from support, depriving them of independence and regulating their everyday behaviour. <BR /> <BR />Members will, no doubt, be aware of my particular interest in Operation Encompass. My party and I have been raising and hammering home its importance since we heard of its existence. The Safeguarding Board raised it with me when I was on the Policing Board.”
“Hopefully, we will never be able to understand that, but, as I said during a previous debate, you can be sure that there are people in the Building who do know. There are victims and perpetrators in the Building. The figures that the Chair outlined are testimony to that. If 20% — one in five — have been affected, this Building, and everybody here, is not exempt. We need to look around us; we need to look after those around us; and we need to give leadership on the issue. <BR /> <BR />The new domestic abuse offence marks a step change in how society views domestic abuse. It makes it clear that domestic abuse is not restricted to physical violence and that coercive control is equally devastating and intolerable in its impact.”
“I know that the Chair and the Minister did not name any organisations for fear of leaving some out, and we will, but some organisations that have engaged closely with us all should be named. As such, I thank the Women's Aid Federation, the Women's Policy Group, the Men's Advisory Project, La Dolce Vita Project, the NSPCC, the Bar, the Safeguarding Board, HERe NI, Cara-Friend and the Rainbow Project. <BR /> <BR />Most importantly, I thank the victims, whom I mentioned earlier. They courageously told us about the horrors of their abuse and what they experienced. The Committee Chair is right: it was very, very difficult to listen to. We cannot, therefore, imagine what it was like for those who had to give that testimony and what it was like to have to live through those experiences.”
“Their courage should be applauded. Today, we send a message that the abuse that they have suffered at the hands of their abusers will not be tolerated. To the abusers, I send a message, and it is a simple one: stop. The law no longer protects you. You must end your abuse. You will be caught, you will be arrested and you will be prosecuted. Your abuse must stop now. <BR /> <BR />I thank the many organisations and agencies that played a key role in the development of the Bill by providing written submissions; engaging directly with the Committee and with MLAs individually; giving presentations to the Committee; sharing research and evidence; amplifying the voices of victims; and being a constant source of help and assistance to us all.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for bringing it forward so early and for all the work that was carried out by everyone involved. To be frank, however, we do not need congratulating for doing our job. It is our job to pass legislation through the House. That is what we are here to do. I am glad that I took part in the passage of this legislation, and I hope that I was able to bring something to it. As, I am sure, the other Committee members, the Minister and her staff did, I felt the weight and importance of what we were doing and that we had to get it right. I believe that we did our very best to get it right. Undoubtedly, however, there will be things that have to be improved. We will all work to ensure that that is done. <BR /> <BR />I commend the victims who, as I said, have worked tirelessly and campaigned on the issue for a long time.”
“I point to the hard work of victims and survivors of domestic abuse in giving their personal testimony to Committee members, all the stuff that they have done in the background and the campaigning that they have done for many years, as the Minister outlined. Many of those who work in organisations that support victims of domestic abuse were victims themselves, and they now see their role being to support others. When we look at organisations, very often but not always, we see that many of the people involved have come from a background of having been an abused person themselves. <BR /> <BR />When the Assembly returned in January 2020, it was made clear by all that new domestic abuse legislation was an absolute priority.”
“I associate myself with much of the Chairperson's commentary, particularly the thanks given to the Minister, her officials in the Department, our Committee and our Committee staff, in particular Christine. They worked really hard, even over the summer months, to prepare the report. It is very much appreciated. <BR /> <BR />Today is a good day for victims and a bad day for perpetrators, we hope. Many victims out there do not have good days, however. That is what the Bill is about, and we need to deliver for those people. The Chair pointed to the work of the Assembly and, as I said, that of the various Departments and the Committee.”
“We have decided that we are going to make a real change here, and that we are going to make it for the people who need it most.”
“I really think that education, from all angles and whatever way we can do it, is important. Operation Encompass, as we talked about earlier, is part of that, because we know that the perpetrators of the future are the victims of yesterday. They are caught up in a cycle that nobody has protected or saved them from or intervened in. I hope that, as an Assembly, that is what we will do. <BR /> <BR />I hope that, when this offence is being reported on in the future, the numbers of people who are using this in the courts do not go up. They will go up initially; that is obviously the way it will happen. It is a new offence, so they will go up, but I hope that, when we are reporting, at some point we see the figures start to come down, because we have not just taken a very narrow approach and dealt with this as a criminal offence.”
“I want to say again, and to place it on the record, that education is obviously vital in respect of the training of those who will be rolling this out; education on what a healthy relationship is. We do not want people to be found guilty of this offence. We want them not to commit it in the first place. Education is the only way that we will stop that from happening. We need to educate young people on what a healthy relationship is. The conversation about telling young women how to look after and protect themselves needs to stop. We need to say to the potential perpetrators or abusers in the future, "You watch how you behave. You stop doing what you're doing". Not, "Look after each other and keep those who may become victims safe". Stop the people who may become the victim-makers.”
“The reporting and the independent oversight will therefore be important for what we do next, because I know — I believe that it is the feeling of the Committee, certainly, and everybody else in the Chamber — that this is not the finish for us. This is only the beginning. Domestic abuse has not even begun to be dealt with; the offence is only one small part of it. Whatever Committee you are on, you will be playing a role in dealing with this. Whatever part or role you play in the Chamber, you will have your part to play, because this is only the beginning of how we start to deal with domestic abuse. <BR /> <BR />We talked earlier today, and in previous debates, about the importance of education.”
“I will say, however, that they are extremely important amendments. They may not be as contentious as some of those in the first group, but they are really important to the Committee. The first group was about trying to get the abuse Bill right and making sure that we have an offence on the books that will deliver for victims. This group is about ensuring that the Bill's roll-out and training are right and that it is implemented in the best possible way so that it actually delivers for victims, and then reporting on it to ensure that, where there are gaps — and there will be gaps. We have worked really hard on this, but we know that it is not perfect. Nobody in the Chamber will believe for one second that it is going to be perfect.”
“I will keep my remarks very brief. <BR /> <BR />I concur with the Chair. Obviously, we will say more at Final Stage. I place on record my appreciation of the hard work of the Committee, the Minister and her officials and, obviously, the Committee staff and the Bill Clerk, who has shown great patience with all of us, I can tell you. Everybody has worked very hard, because we believe in the Bill. The Chair talked about Christmas. We know that Christmas is a particularly difficult time for those who suffer domestic abuse. Our thoughts will be with those people over the Christmas period — those who are stuck in their homes with their abusers and potential abusers. <BR /> <BR />I will not go into any detail. The Chair has covered the detail around these amendments, so there is no need to go into that any further.”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention. I just want clarity around one issue in relation to this. The officials told the Committee, if I recall, that mediation services are not provided in cases of domestic violence and that that is the intended course of action in relation to domestic abuse also. Is mediation ruled out in these cases anyhow? I just want clarity around that.”
“I agree with the Member's comments that, if this was just about cost, that is exactly what you would be saying. Victims of domestic abuse are not responsible for those who fraudulently access legal aid. However, what do we do about the new victims who are created by those who abuse the system? It is not the fact that they get the money; getting the money is one part of it. How do we protect the victims or potential victims of those who, then, misuse it? That is where my concern lies.”