Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“Does the Minister agree that other Departments and Ministers need to do something similar in putting together a working group to implement the recommendations that impact their Departments, particularly those around education?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Rather than take on the role that we would envisage for a commissioner, Women's Aid plays a supporting role. Women's Aid provides refuge and such things. The commissioner's role would be to support what Women's Aid does and perhaps advocate on its behalf if it needed additional funding. Does the Member agree that there is potential for those two roles to be complementary rather than set against each other?”
“— and how it will benefit them. We will be supporting the motion.”
“What is important is knowing that there is a person there to help you. <BR /> <BR />Mr Givan mentioned the Victim Charter and said that victims do not even know that it is there. The Victim Charter should be the very first thing that people are told about when they become a victim. They should be told that, as victim, they have rights. If we are going to have a victims of crime commissioner, or whatever model the Minister chooses to bring forward after the feasibility study has been conducted, we need to ensure that victims understand what the model is, what it can do for them and how they can access it, because that is vital in all of this. There is no value in having a commissioner for anything if the people who rely on that commissioner do not understand how the model works, how to access it —”
“<BR /> <BR />As I have outlined, over recent months we have been scrutinising the Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill. In it, as Members have said, we have looked at the value of a specific commissioner on domestic abuse. All those issues can be looked at as part of the feasibility study. I do not think that Members would disagree that we need to look at all of that. However, there is an issue of equity here. We need to ensure that all victims have the same representation and are looked after in the same way, regardless of what they are the victim of, whether homicide, domestic or sexual violence, or antisocial behaviour.”
“Scotland has decided not to go with a victims of crime commissioner, but that does not mean that that is the right approach. <BR /> <BR />The motion is excellent in asking us to look at a feasibility study and all the other models out there. It might be that none of those is the example that we follow; there may be other, better models across the world. We need to look at what is the best model and the best practice. We should not have a narrow view and look just within these islands; we need to look at what is the best model. We should be looking at what is in place in the Twenty-six Counties, England, Wales and Scotland and seeing what is missing and what is wrong there. Whatever we do and whenever we do it, we want it to be better, not the same. That is important for us.”
“Maybe we, as a Committee, need to look at what reports and recommendations are there and see what has been implemented and what could actually have an impact, and, in the absence of a victims of crime commissioner, what we can do to ensure that those recommendations are implemented. As a Committee, we have a lot of work to do. Our work is about holding the Minister to account and ensuring that the recommendations made to the Department and to all the other organisations, whether the PSNI or any other, are carried out. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of different models of victim support and advocacy. We need to look to all of those, what is involved and what they cover. There are models in the South — it has quite an extensive role — and across the water in England and Wales.”
“Obviously, our starting point is that we have to look first at victims — victims right across the board. Over recent months, all of us, including me in my role as Deputy Chair of the Justice Committee, have heard about those who have suffered all the different types of domestic abuse whether it is physical, coercive, sexual or involves children and other family members. All of this is really important in highlighting to us why victims need to be listened to. That is what we need to look to. <BR /> <BR />As Paul outlined, the report is there; all of the evidence is there. However, there are many reports and recommendations out there. There is the Gillen review and recommendations and many, many others.”
“Much of what has been said by both the proposer of the motion, whom I thank for bringing it to the House, and the Chair of the Committee will probably be repeated across the House. That leads me to think that we possibly should have looked at bringing a Committee motion, as that would carry weight and have value. However, this motion is here and will probably get support across the House. I am sure that it will be carried and, hopefully, the Minister will give a positive response. <BR /> <BR />Asking for a feasibility study is good, as it shows that you are starting at the right point. Rather than saying, "We need something", it says, "We should look at what we need and, if we need it, what responsibilities should be given to that commissioner". That is extremely important.”
“That is appropriate, and it should not last indefinitely. We have learned much about what can be done and what is possible. For many years in this place, we were told what was not possible. Finally, we see that, when something affects everybody, suddenly it is all possible. In particular — I am going to say this — it was the men in this place, because I suggested that we could have proxy voting in order to get more young women into the Chamber and to deal with maternity leave and with those who were off on long-term sick leave, which has impacted a number of people in the House. However, that did not affect enough people for serious consideration to be given to the changes that could be made. We now see what can be done and what is possible. I certainly hope that, into the future, we have open minds about how this place can be run.”
“A number of Members have responded, as have other legislatures, and I am pleased to inform the House that the Committee has agreed to include proxy voting in its forward work programme. I hope that that brings the House up to date with the motion. <BR /> <BR />On behalf of the Committee, I will end my comments by reminding Members that the current temporary provisions cease to have effect after tomorrow. We are still in a very precarious situation with the COVID-19 pandemic, and it is imperative that we as an Assembly do what we can to protect not only ourselves and the staff in the Building but our families when we return home. On behalf of the Committee, I commend the motion to the House. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak as an MLA and will keep my comments brief. This provision is for a set period until 31 January 2021.”
“The Committee will continue to review the provisions if an extension is agreed today. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that Members will agree that the Assembly and Assembly Committees have been able to continue their very important roles in what has been, and still is, a very challenging period. <BR /> <BR />Finally, following a request by the Speaker's Office to consider the instances in which proxy voting would be retained on a more permanent basis and how that might be reflected in Standing Orders, the Committee has made a number of initial inquiries. The Committee wrote to all Members and independent Members to seek their views on proxy voting. The Committee also made enquiries of other local legislatures to seek their views and practices.”
“<BR /> <BR />At its first meeting of the session on 17 September 2020, the Committee considered a number of available options. Those were: do nothing and let the provisions cease to have effect, which would be from tomorrow; agree a motion to extend the provisions for a set period and consider any amendments at a later date; or agree to extend the provisions for a set period with amendments. <BR /> <BR />Given the little time that we had left before the provisions ceased to have effect, the Committee agreed to extend the provisions to 31 January 2021 and to use that time to consider any amendments. I would like to point out that, since these temporary provisions have been in effect, the Committee has kept them under review and has not been made aware of any necessary changes.”
“Any member of a Committee, including the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, may attend remotely. They also provide for Committee members to delegate their vote to another member of the Committee, including the Chairperson or Deputy Chairperson. In addition, and perhaps most importantly, they provide for a Statutory Committee to make decisions without meeting. <BR /> <BR />Similar provision is made for Standing Committees, with particular provision made for the Audit Committee, and to maintain, so far as is possible, the existing structures of the Business Committee. <BR /> <BR />That is a brief overview of the temporary provisions, and that is why the motion has been brought to the House today. These provisions are temporary and cease to have effect from 30 September, which is tomorrow.”
“<BR /> <BR />On 27 March 2020, the Assembly agreed the Committee motion by way of cross-community support. The agreed motion introduced the temporary provisions of Standing Orders 110 to 116. <BR /> <BR />Standing Orders 110 to 116 provide for a number of changes to Assembly business. They include provisions for a reduction of Members required in the Chamber in light of current circumstances and the need to socially distance. They also make a new provision for voting by proxy. In particular, they make provision for the number of proxy votes carried out by a Member to be taken into account in the collection of voices that precedes a division. <BR /> <BR />Importantly, for Committee operations, the temporary provisions provide for enhanced remote working practices.”
“On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I am pleased to bring this motion to the House today, which proposes amending Standing Order 110 relating to the temporary provisions of Standing Orders 110 to 116. I will briefly provide some background to the motion. <BR /> <BR />On 25 March 2020, the Committee on Procedures considered and agreed a motion to amend Standing Orders and make urgent changes to usual Assembly procedures as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. That came as a result of the Business Committee and the Chairpersons' Liaison Group identifying several solutions to both Assembly business and Committee operations to allow the Assembly to continue to carry out its functions whilst adhering to public health advice and keeping Members and staff here as safe as possible.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I also thank him for coming to St Joseph's Primary School in Galbally in my constituency last week. They did some very good work with remote learning during lockdown. Potentially, there may be a lot more remote learning if bubbles are isolating or full schools have to close down. A lot of leeway was given to some schools that maybe did not perform as well as St Joseph's in Galbally did with the remote-learning process. We need assurance from the Minister that there will be equity across the board for young people in what they get from their school and in accessing remote learning. As we know, not every family has electronic devices, and some families have a large number of children and maybe only one electronic device.”
“Thank you, Minister, for taking the intervention. In relation to Helen's law and Mr Beattie's suggestion that there could be an LCM, earlier we discussed in the Chamber that it is much better for us to make our own legislation, and that is not to take away from the work that has been done. In relation to the Domestic Abuse Bill, we have looked at Scotland and the Westminster Bill, and we do consider them, but it is important that we make our own legislation here in the Assembly.”
“If the Minister and Department of Justice do not bring forward legislation to address the motion, the reality is that although the Parole Board will consider the non-disclosure of her remains, there is nothing in statute to send a signal to the perpetrator of that horrific killing and the Parole Board to give it significant weight. <BR /> <BR />We will support the amendment and we will not oppose the motion.”
“This issue cannot simply be lumped in with the sentencing review because there are elements to this that are not addressed by the review, particularly the continued offending in relation to child sex offences. <BR /> <BR />I call on the Minister to commit to a bespoke piece of work outside the sentencing review as a matter of urgency. It is the intention of the Minister to meet the families. It is imperative that the Minister progresses this in a positive and proactive manner. Charlotte Murray's killer was sentenced to a minimum of 16 years.”
“Regardless of the outcome, this debate is only the beginning of the process. The motion is non-binding. If the House does not pursue the Minister and Department to deliver, and insist that she begins to scope out what legislation would look like, then all we are doing is making politics and raising the expectations of families that are campaigning and are the voices of their loved ones, and this is just not acceptable. <BR /> <BR />I met the families and spoke with them at length over the weekend. They are determined, articulate and intelligent people fighting a dignified campaign. They will not have the wool pulled over their eyes by Members or the Minister. We owe it to them to work together to deliver legislation.”
“The amendment may allow the Department to put this on the long finger when what we need is the beginning of a process to produce effective and robust legislation that will deliver for the victims and their loved ones.”
“I spoke at length with the families over the weekend, as they, too, accept that the amendment does not go far enough and gives no firm commitment on the next steps that will address the issue and meet the needs of the families.”
“We cannot even begin to imagine the compounded pain of not having the remains to lay to rest and to have somewhere to visit them. Everyone should have that right. I call on anyone who can give information to give any family peace of mind to, please, come forward with that information to allow them to establish the whereabouts of the remains of their loved ones. <BR /> <BR />The motion before us today, while it asks for equivalent legislation to Helen's law, appears to go further than Helen's law and, in doing so, potentially strays into the realm of indeterminate sentences, which contravene human rights law. Kellie Armstrong has already outlined the issues around that, so I do not intend to repeat that. I fully support the spirit of the motion, and, as I said, there are only a few words in the motion that we cannot support.”
“I do not think that there will be very much between what any of us in the Chamber say today, regardless of whether we support the amendment, because we all support the spirit of the motion. I think that is fair to say. There is little in the motion that we cannot support, but there is a bit. We will support the amendment, but we will not push it to a vote. I just want to make Members aware that that is our position. <BR /> <BR />I want to begin by thanking the families of Charlotte Murray and Lisa Dorrian for coming here and meeting me and my party colleagues, as, I am sure, they met representatives of the other parties. Our deepest thoughts and sympathies are with those families and the many others like them who do not know the whereabouts of their loved ones' remains.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I also want to thank her and Minister Poots for that funding because it is very much appreciated, I can assure her, by businesses and rural businesses right across Mid Ulster. Can she update the House on whether the criteria for tranche 2 will be changed or remain the same in order to get the most meaningful outcome?”
“Is it intended to have a redress scheme for clerical abuse that is similar in type to that in place for historical institutional abuse (HIA)?”
“<BR /> <BR />Can the Minister outline how she will ensure that justice is upheld in those cases where it has been decided not to pursue fresh prosecutions? How can we minimise the impact on the victims of those cases where there are new prosecutions?”
“Like the Members before me, I thank the Minister for coming to the House with this ministerial statement. I had tabled a question for urgent oral answer, but I am grateful that a ministerial statement has been made. Obviously, we got the statement a bit late and that makes it difficult for us to ask questions. However, I want to place on record that our deepest thoughts are with the victims. This will have had a devastating impact, not only on the victims but on their families. When something like this happens, it does not just impact on one person: it impacts everyone around them. Our thoughts are with them, and I am glad that they are getting support. I hope that the support will continue and that they will get all and any support that they need during this process.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree with me that the Minister actually supported my colleague Mr O'Dowd's point when she said that 50 additional jobs had been created in the IT sector? That industry is flourishing at the moment, yet that is where her number-one bid to the Executive is going.”
“They have many outstanding bills, but, as was outlined by Mr Stewart, despite many challenges with their mental health, they have struggled on. They need support, and they need it now. I have asked questions of the Economy Minister on a number of occasions in the Chamber. I do not believe that I have received a simple, straight answer to any of them around how we are going to support those excluded people. <BR /> <BR />I ask everybody to support the motion so that we support those who are newly self-employed and those who have worked hard to establish businesses and yet, to date, have received no support.”
“Thank you. I believe that scheme is the responsibility of the Economy Minister. It was delivered by LPS simply because that was the quickest way to get the money out, but the Economy Minister is the Minister we need to lobby. I absolutely will support you in doing that. <BR /> <BR />My last point is that all Ministers need to carry out their own responsibilities. It is the responsibility of the Economy Minister to come up with proposals and schemes. It is her responsibility to make bids to the Finance Minister. It is then his responsibility — I sincerely hope that he does this — to finance the schemes. As I said, we have all been lobbied by the excluded groups. They need support. The fact that they have survived to date does not mean that they do not need support.”
“That will not address the issue that Claire Sugden raised around rate relief, because these are couples who have two separate businesses that happen to share the same premises, but only one business could actually benefit from the scheme and claim £10,000. That meant that, if you were part of a couple who happened to share one premises, but your business was separate, you paid all your bills separately, you lost out on any form of support. Those people need assistance.”
“Other economic projections show that the closure of the furlough scheme is also likely to result in significant job losses in that sector. With that in mind, it is difficult to understand why the Minister continues to leave small manufacturers behind in support schemes. The Minister insists that she has made bids for funding, but we would like to see the detail of those bids and how they will benefit our small manufacturers. <BR /> <BR />I could give many examples, as others in the House have done today, of how the lack of support has impacted on some businesses. I have also a number of examples involving couples whose businesses happen to share the same premises.”
“<BR /> <BR />As stated before in this Chamber, Mid-Ulster has the highest rate of VAT-registered business outside of Belfast. That is in spite of the fact that we get no foreign direct investment and in spite of poor infrastructure in terms of good roads and facilities such as electricity. It is because we are very lucky to have a strong history of engineering and small manufacturing entrepreneurs in Mid-Ulster, who, against all odds and in very difficult, challenging times and despite historical underinvestment, have built their businesses. Now, yet again, they have been left out and abandoned by our Economy Minister. <BR /> <BR />The Mid-Ulster economy is heavily reliant on manufacturing, and according to Manufacturing NI, 12% of firms believe that they will not survive until the end of the year.”
“My point was about those who were excluded, Mr Stalford. Mr Dunne outlined that any underspend should be directed towards the Economy Minister. The Economy Minister had a £60 million underspend. Maybe that should have been directed towards those people. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the motion and the calls for a fund to be implemented to support those impacted by COVID and left behind by previous schemes. A report published in April by the Centre for Progressive Policy found that Mid-Ulster is likely to suffer much more than many other areas. Mid-Ulster is my constituency. It is a constituency that I am very proud of. I am very proud of all of the hard work that people of the area have put in, against all the odds, to build up their businesses.”
“Thank you very much. I accept that government is not the answer to every problem, but why is it the answer to every problem for some and no problem for others?”
“Would the Member agree with me that we, as leaders, have a responsibility to remove that negative language and to ensure that people understand the value of migrants: that they are not a drain on our resources; they are actually a benefit to our communities?”
“We have to be seen to be standing with those people; we have to be seen to be reaching out to our neighbours; we have to be seen to let our children play with those children. Too often you see that it is just easier not to, because they speak a different language and there are all kinds of barriers. If you have children who live near children of other cultural backgrounds, you should be encouraging your children to embrace that diversity. As Mr Stalford has already said, it is really, really important. No child is born to hate; they learn it. What we need to do is teach them differently, and as parents and leaders we all have responsibility around that. I thank the proposer of the motion and support the amendment.”
“It is not good enough to stand back or to put a statement out and say that what has happened to a person who lives near me or in my constituency is terrible.”
“That will assist in reconciliation and meaningful rehabilitation, as imprisonment alone will often not address the underlying issue. Any restorative approach must be victim-led and voluntary, but it is a very important part of the approach because that is what will lead to real and meaningful reconciliation, as we well know from our own lived experience here. <BR /> <BR />We need laws that properly meet the needs of victims, but as a community, and we, in particular, as leaders in our community, need to have a zero-tolerance approach to racism in all its forms. The best way to protect ethnic minority groups from attacks is by ensuring that they are not seen as isolated and vulnerable. The way to do that is to ensure that we all, as individuals, reach out to our neighbours and those in our constituencies who may fall into those categories.”
“<BR /> <BR />Current legislation in the North is failing victims, as highlighted by the previous DPP, Barra McGrory, when he stated that there is no easy opportunity to identify the race element in court. It is the law. It is the way that it is framed. The policymakers and lawmakers on these issues may want to revisit that. I will pick up on what Doug Beattie and others said in relation to that. We have many Departments that need to take responsibility here, including Justice. <BR /> <BR />These crimes currently come under the Public Order Order 1987, which does not meet the stipulations of international human rights standards. Serious consideration needs to be given to a restorative approach post-conviction or incarceration.”
“The stats highlight clearly the increase in the number of hate-related crimes and racially motivated attacks. That is extremely concerning, particularly given that we are all well aware that many incidents and crimes in this category go unreported for many reasons, including language and cultural barriers, but also due to the fear of reprisal, especially where there is concern that there may be paramilitary involvement. <BR /> <BR />A 2018 Policing Board report found that some victims suggested that PSNI officers had assessed their credibility based on negative stereotyping. Whilst paramilitary groups targeting minority ethnic communities has been evidenced, no joint strategy appears to have been put in place to tackle that.”
“Does the Minister agree that given the very significant challenges that we face at the moment, particularly around COVID and Brexit, it is important that the process is completed? I accept what she has said about the process; that is important and it is good that it is being followed, but it is important that we have some time frame for the appointment.”
“Thank you for your answer. I am delighted to hear that the Youth Services is involved in this because I very often say in the Justice Committee that, where young people are involved, the Youth Service should be involved. Can we do anything to ensure that the work of the Youth Assembly is actually relevant to young people, because that is going to be the best way to engage them?”
“I think that you will acknowledge that your own First Minister was taken to court to deal with the victims issue as well over what happened in Loughgall and the fact that she would not allow that to come to the Executive table.”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention. Earlier in the debate, it was outlined that, in the Domestic Abuse Bill, an aggravating factor is a child being in the vicinity of an attack. Does the Minister agree that, while it is OK to have what she just outlined of somebody's role being an aggravating factor, that is very different to what the motion asks for?”
“A domiciliary care worker in the community contacted me today. She asked why patients who leave hospitals and go into care home settings are being tested before they go into those settings, but patients who go back into the community, where care workers, district nurses and so on have to go in to treat them, are not being tested. She asked why that is not happening to protect those staff in the same way as staff in the care homes are being protected. I would also like to be associated with the comments about giving sympathy to the families concerned and in support of the staff in Craigavon Area Hospital.”
“Has the Minister had any direct discussions with the Secretary of State about funding and has he given any indication that they will be prepared to discuss funding? The previous Secretary of State said that funding would be sorted and that an approach would be looked on favourably.”
“I support the amendment and thank the Members who tabled it.”