Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“Go raibh maith agat. First, it is the sectors out there that tell me we need the regulations. I am not saying that everything that comes from Europe is perfect: there are many difficulties and challenges with Europe. I accept that. However, this is what the sectors are telling me, including the Agri-Food Strategy Board.”
“The big concern that a lot of businesses raised with me was about their workforce and how they will sustain that into the future. Concerns were also raised around regulation and legislation, and, as I mentioned, those in the agri-food sector have raised their concern that the regulations will be changed or reduced, which would affect the quality of our food and the reassurance that we could give about the quality of our food to countries in and outside Europe.”
“Neither Mr Poots nor Mr Irwin indicated whether their party will support the motion. Given the wording of the motion, I think that it would be difficult for all parties in the House not to support it, because I imagine that, regardless of our position on the EU referendum, we all want the Minister to do the best she possibly can to support our farmers in the future. <BR /> <BR />The agri-food sector is, without a doubt, one of the most important, if not the most important, sectors in our economy and, as such, must be protected. I met numerous stakeholders over the summer months and many concerns were raised, from funding to workforce issues. The workforce issue has not been acknowledged yet today. Many of the workforce in the agri-food sector are non-nationals and come from other EU countries.”
“Thank you very much; I appreciate you allowing the intervention. Does the Member not agree that numerous agri-food sector stakeholders have said to the Committee, "We need those regulations to remain in place in order to secure the quality of our food moving forward and to be able to gain access to markets"? I also know that from my meetings with stakeholders over the summer months.”
“Does the Minister agree that continuous engagement with NIPSA and the other unions would be useful in any process like this?”
“I ask the Minister to listen to what is being said. I know that you have already met numerous MLAs, that you met the council, and that a lot of these issues have already been outlined. You have met NIPSA and have heard their arguments, and their arguments are well thought through; they have all the statistics to show the negative impact that this has already had across the water. I do not want to see our people suffering the same fate. It was said outside the Building today that it will be a sad indictment on us as a government if we have a food bank in a town and no social security office.”
“We are moving to universal credit, and apparently that is the reason that we are looking at changing these services. Universal credit will mean that more people will need to visit the office, not fewer. That is why we need to retain an office in Cookstown and not just in Cookstown — Ballynahinch and Newcastle fall into the same category. They have all the same challenges, in that they are rural areas and have vulnerable constituents.”
“Ardboe, Moortown, Killen, Aughamullan and all these other places are nowhere near Cookstown centre. <BR /> <BR />I ask the Minister to rural-proof any planned closures honestly and genuinely. When you look at it, you will see that they cannot be rural-proofed. If you close the offices, people in my constituency will not be able to access the service. Unless you have other proposals that we have not yet seen, there is nothing that will address that. I am seriously concerned about the impact that this will have. As I have already outlined, we are not just talking about people on jobseeker's allowance. Those are the figures that were used in the consultation for how many people use the service. We are talking about people on tax credits.”
“<BR /> <BR />There has been much work carried out, as I have already outlined, by Mid Ulster District Council to try to work with the Department to find solutions to ensure that the service can be retained in Cookstown. This is a very positive move: local government is wanting to work with central government to deliver for communities. That is community planning in practice, but it will work only if the Minister approaches it with an open mind and sees the need to protect these front-line services and, as has just been outlined, our rural dwellers. One of the main concerns raised by the council and by numerous people in public meetings was the fact that Mid Ulster is a largely rural constituency yet the figures that were used were those within a mile of Cookstown town centre.”
“Absolutely, and I will address that. You are 100% right. I raised that as the Chair of the AERA Committee. I asked for the Minister to be written to and, in turn, for her to have a conversation with her Executive and party colleague, because I felt that that was something that had been absolutely ignored. For that reason, I was extremely concerned. <BR /> <BR />The staff in the offices are predominantly at a lower grade, female and with caring responsibilities. As such, they will be severely negatively impacted on by any closure, resulting in them having to travel further to work and at a greater cost. Again, I do not see any evidence that the Department has given this any great degree of consideration.”
“Most often, it tends to be those with mental ill health or people with mild to medium learning difficulties who fall into that situation. <BR /> <BR />The Minister may talk about the ring-fenced money for advice services. However, that money is for the entire North, not just for Cookstown or even Mid Ulster. Let us face it: by the time it goes around, there will not be much left to negate any impact of office closures in Cookstown, Ballynahinch or Newcastle. The reality is that, with the changes to welfare, there will be a greater need than ever to protect our vulnerable constituents. The first step is to retain our front-line services across the North. I am not asking to protect just those three offices: we need all the offices that we have across the North.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am also concerned about what will happen if people are unable to attend appointments through no fault of their own but because of the poor transport infrastructure and have sanctions placed on them as a result that could mean families being left without money for food or household necessities. I know that all of that needs to be addressed and is not necessarily your responsibility, but the fact is that it is what it is, and we have to live in the circumstances that we live in. You might say that there are appeals processes and measures to negate, but we have seen with previous measures that have been taken that that does not always work. People will, as I have already said, fall through the cracks, and I have dealt with numerous such cases.”
“There have been occasions when staff have had to go out to people's homes — I have been in this situation — and deal with people at the very brink, who will possibly go that step further and take their own life. We know that some people across the water have already taken their own life. I am quite sure that it has happened and will continue to happen here. We need to protect those people. Cost-effectiveness has to be looked at in the round. What cost are we prepared to pay? Will that cost be to our health service? This is one Executive, and we need to look after every part of it. That is something that needs to be taken into consideration.”
“People with mental health problems often have difficulty asking for help. What will we do when those people start falling through the cracks? Are they just going to be collateral damage? <BR /> <BR />My background is in working in the Sinn Féin advice centre in Coalisland and dealing with welfare and all those issues with very vulnerable people in our society. They are the people who do not ask for help and do not know where to go for help. I would be very concerned for those people in a situation where there is no front-line service. They will fall through the cracks. It is already happening. I have met Citizens Advice on numerous occasions about the difficulties that it was having with people.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am aware that the unions have raised consistently with the Minister their concerns around the lack of engagement with them in relation to the proposed closures in advance of any proposals. Sinn Féin opposes strongly the Tory cuts and welfare reform. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a Tory Government who, quite frankly, are not concerned about their own constituents, never mind the people over here. We have seen the result of how they have decided to implement welfare reform. Minister, you have an opportunity to do things differently and ensure that our most vulnerable citizens, particularly those with mental ill health and disabilities, have access to front-line services. I assure you that many people will not be able to access the service if the office in Cookstown is closed.”
“I would be interested to know whether any future-proofing has been done on the proposed closures, given that the regional development strategy 2035 defines Cookstown as a main hub with a growing population and a higher proportion of nought-to-15-year-olds than the rest of the North. <BR /> <BR />The Minister talks about the use of telephony and broadband. As a representative of the area, I assure you that the biggest issue that I am challenged about — it is raised with me regularly — is poor broadband and mobile phone infrastructure in the constituency. Whilst I will continue to lobby to have those issues addressed, I do not believe that, in the current circumstances and where we are likely to sit over the next number of years, that is a valid proposal.”
“Equality screening was totally inadequate; it failed to note the differential impacts on women, older people, carers, people with disabilities and migrant communities. The rural proofing was completed only on 4 November, which was eight weeks into the consultation. I do not know how the Minister thought that that would instil any confidence in the largely rural constituency of Mid Ulster. <BR /> <BR />Due to the nature of the constituency, access is hindered by poor public transport. Almost 16% of households have no access to personal transport. Let us face it: the reality is that they are most likely to be the people who need access to social security offices.”
“There are a number of issues that I will address with regard to the proposed closures. I am glad to see that the Minister is here to listen to us. I know that he has met Mid Ulster District Council and a number of MLAs already on the issue. The first concerns the failures in the consultation document. It fails to recognise the working poor and the low-wage employment common across the area. There is a wild underestimation of journey times and costs, which have a serious negative impact on claimants. The premises analysis uses wholly unrealistic estimated capital costs and, therefore, is not reflective of cost-effectiveness. The cost-effectiveness measures use only jobseekers' allowance (JSA) claimants; they ignore the much greater number of other clients, who would better reflect the office usage.”
“Even the way in which it initially came out was totally wrong for the staff and everybody involved. I welcome some of those people; they are in the Gallery today. There are representatives of the staff here. I thank those who came up here today to outline the issues. They were out at the front of Parliament Buildings earlier; I think that they met quite a few MLAs to highlight the issues. The fact that they made the effort to come up here and took the time out of work to do that shows their concern.”
“I appreciate the opportunity to bring this Adjournment debate forward on what is an extremely important issue for my constituents and me. It first came to my attention when some of the staff who work in the offices were notified by a leaked document that there was a proposed closure of these offices. We then received emails from the Department.”
“Will the Minister provide an overview of the discussions that he had with the unions and staff representatives prior to the consultation?”
“I thank the Member for allowing the intervention. I accept what you are saying, and using private healthcare is certainly not the answer that we want to see. However, do you not accept that the child whom you spoke about who is having to wait 18 months will have to wait a lot longer if the Minister does not use these methods in the short term in order to reduce waiting lists?”
“The Member is right that we have had all those reports but none of them were under this Minister. I think that the Member will agree with that.”
“Go raibh maith agat. I appreciate you giving way. Giving justice to one family, one set of families or one set of victims does not remove the opportunity for other victims to get justice. The debate is not about getting justice for one so that nobody else can get it; it is about dealing with this issue. That is something that needs to be addressed in the Chamber. We are not talking about justice for one against another; it is justice for everybody.”
“Will the Minister advise when the last review was carried out?”
“I know you are not the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Minister, but I would certainly like to hear you say a wee bit more about farmers. I recognise that you are the Economy Minister and therefore may have an eye to that more than to farmers, but I am concerned about what Tony O'Neill said. I do not disagree with you in a lot of what you said about him. He is very good at what he does, and I think he has a lot to bring to the Agri-Food Strategy Board. However, the farmers out there are, quite rightly, very concerned by what he said. What assurances can the Minister give us that farmers will get the support that they need from the Department going into the future to ensure that they have equality of production and sustainability?”
“I heard the £15 amount thrown out as well, and some people might say that that would be cheaper than paying in a car park and that they could park wherever they want. I am not sure that it would be much of a deterrent in the city centre.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and his answers so far. He referred to a more efficient process, which a number of Members mentioned. How does the timing of this year's delivery of monitoring rounds compare with previous years?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers. Can she outline how her vision, set out in Delivering Together, will help address the health inequalities that exist?”
“Go raibh maith agat. I do not think that there was any defence of the waiting lists. The Minister was very clear that the waiting lists are unacceptable. The defence was around the wording of the motion and the fact that it is incorrect. There are inaccuracies in it. If we are talking about temperate debate, it would be more prudent of the Opposition to bring forward a motion that was factually correct and which everybody in the House could possibly have supported.”
“I find it deeply offensive that you would say that anything was rehearsed or coached. I point specifically to Pat Sheehan's remarks during the debate. You are talking about people who have lost family members as though he is not one of them. Show a little bit of respect for everybody involved in this situation, please.”
“Go raibh maith agat. Will the Minister confirm whether the forum will discuss the transformation in the aftermath of the publication of the Bengoa report?”
“Can the Minister detail what services are available for women who experience recurrent miscarriage, given that this obviously carries with it an awful lot of distress?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Unfortunately, Mr Stalford has left the Chamber, but we should raise the issue that he mentioned. He said that the courts were not the most democratic way of taking this forward: I think that the courts are an extremely vital part of our democratic process. However, given that that is how he feels, it is unusual that his Minister took the previous ARD Minister, Michelle O'Neill, to court to prevent her from spending EU money in the way in which she saw fit in her Department. Given that, it is unusual that he does not think that the courts are a democratic way of dealing with things.”
“The report on the review of the implementation of animal welfare legislation made 68 recommendations. I accept that 68 is quite a number, but will the Minister update us on how many recommendations have been implemented in full?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement and answers so far. I will follow on from the question asked by Mr McKee: can the Minister provide further detail on the scoping exercise and tell us when it might be made available to the Committee?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I note in paragraph 3 that the Ministers had an initial discussion on the implications of the EU referendum result. Can the Minister elaborate on the implications discussed, in particular the impact of the result on future cooperation on joint projects that depend on EU funding?”
“In the absence of resolution, what plans do the Executive have in place to sustain projects that rely on Peace funding?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Can the Minister tell us what savings the voluntary exit scheme has produced that can be reinvested in front-line services in our communities?”
“I thank the Minister for his response. Has he read the Irish Government's recently published action plan for education? If so, is he familiar with its specific proposals for reducing inequality and tackling disadvantage, including cycles of disadvantage within families and communities? It is important for both Administrations on the island of Ireland to work closely together on tackling disadvantage and underachievement.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the amendment. I hope that we will get support for it in the House, given that there is an issue. The motion is about protecting, standing up for and looking after our rural areas. We need to look at everything. In addition to the bank closures, there is the issue of broadband connection and all the infrastructure that rural parts of the North have been left without for many years. Whilst we are trying to address it now that we have people here in a legislative Assembly who can do something about it, the many years of neglect have left their mark.”
“Whilst I accept that that may be the case, I would like to highlight the fact that that is the case only in big towns and cities where there is good Internet connection, not in rural areas. It has been pointed out by several Members that the new age of technology has not yet reached many of our rural areas. <BR /> <BR />I have some questions over the stats that the Minister gave today. I can assure you that 94% of homes and businesses across Mid Ulster and many other areas of the rural North do not have a decent standard of broadband. The broadband that many have is so poor that you cannot use it, so those stats need to be questioned. I wonder whether they were rural proofed and checked against what is available in rural areas of the North rather than an average being taken across the North. I definitely question those statistics.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a loss of business in areas where there is no bank, because people do their business where they do their banking. Often, if you pass Coalisland to go to Dungannon to do your banking, you will do your shopping there as well. That is an issue for businesses that are trying to survive in a difficult economic climate. Banks can talk the talk about consumer focus, but, when it boils right down to it, it is all about profit. That has been well highlighted here today. <BR /> <BR />Broadband is not a substitute; online banking is not the answer. Even though it can be used in certain areas, it cannot be availed of in many of our rural areas. The Minister said that viability was the driver for bank closures in this new age of technology.”
“Mr McGlone mentioned Maghera. We talk about towns and businesses needing to use Internet banking, but one half of Maghera town does not have access to broadband. One half of the businesses in that town do not have access to broadband, so it is impossible for them to do Internet banking. Mr McGlone also mentioned Mid Ulster, which has the largest number of VAT-registered businesses outside Belfast. It is a very innovative area, where people got up and out to start their own businesses. They made the effort, but they often feel that they do not get the support from central government to remain in Mid Ulster. <BR /> <BR />Generational difficulties were also raised, in that many of our older people have difficulty accessing the Internet. Going to the bank was part of their routine; it was a social thing. My colleague Declan raised that.”
“As outlined by my colleague Caoimhe Archibald, the amendment adds to the motion, as there are substantial infrastructural deficits that mean that Internet banking is not accessible to many rural businesses and dwellers. As mentioned, that does not solve the issue of cash lodgements and withdrawals for businesses. Unfortunately, we do not have control of banks and how they choose to deliver their services. However, as customers, there is an expectation that the bank that we use can meet our requirements. There needs to be an innovative approach to the issue, and the Minister should have proper engagement with banks to discuss how services can be delivered and retained in rural areas. Many examples have been given here today of how that could be done. <BR /> <BR />My town of Coalisland, which has quite an urban base, is without a bank.”
“The Minister's engagement with stakeholders was very different from mine when it comes to how they feel about Brexit, and I think that we met many of the same stakeholders, including farmers' organisations. What assurances can the Minister give about the future funding of the rural development programme?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. The Minister will be aware that it is widely accepted that prison officer engagement with prisoners is the first stage in the rehabilitation process. However, in the past there was a policy in prisons here of non-engagement. Concerns have been raised that such a culture may still exist among some prison staff. Can the Minister give an assurance that she will raise this issue with the new director of the Prison Service when he or she is appointed?”
“Whatever we decide to do, we need to protect those who may not have the financial capacity to deal with the problem. However, I accept that that may be no good to those who live in neighbouring properties, whose finances are negatively impacted, their property reduced in value and their quality of life obviously impacted on as well. <BR /> <BR />It is a significant problem, and we need to find a proper strategy and a way to move forward. It is extremely important that we deal with the issue and come up with a strategy that protects all.”
“Again, I can state that the Committee was not satisfied with the answer, and we have now asked for further details, such as statistical information on the extent of the problem in the North, including the number of known cases, the geographical spread of the problem and the financial implications. I look forward to receiving that information in due course, and I am sure that we will be interested in its content. <BR /> <BR />I am the Sinn Féin spokesperson for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, and this issue came to Mid Ulster District Council in 2015. It could not be supported because there was nothing being put in place to protect those who may find themselves in the position of having this on their property and not being able to deal with it because they do not have the financial capacity to do so.”
“The Committee was told that the EU had legislated in the area with the invasive alien species regulation, but, in the same breath, we were told that the regulation did not apply to knotweed. We were later told that other jurisdictions had tried a different approach, such as the use of ASBOs, but, to the Committee and me, that is clearly not a satisfactory position. We wrote to the Department asking for more information and were subsequently informed that the Wildlife Order 1985 made it an offence to cause to grow in the wild or release or allow to escape in the wild any non-native plant listed under schedule 9 to the legislation. Japanese knotweed and giant hogweed are listed in Part II of schedule 9, but the Department's role is limited to the provision of advice and guidance on the management of invasive species.”