Clive Efford
MP for Eltham and Chislehurst · Labour · United Kingdom
“Thank you for allowing me to take part in this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that I was not here at the beginning—I was carrying out my duties elsewhere in the House. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. What is she likely to do in my part of south-east London for technical and vocational places?”
“I rise to speak to amendment 97 in my name, which would remove clause 10 from the Bill. Clause 10 gives powers to the Secretary of State to vary the proportion of public and private provision of health services if they consider that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”
“Labour’s 2024 plan to make work pay set out a welcome desire to bring more essential services back into public control—something that is welcomed by health workers across the country, because so far the “biggest wave of insourcing in a generation”, as was promised, has felt more like a trickle when it comes to the NHS.”
“The explanatory notes for the Bill say that this new flexibility is necessary “where there may otherwise be a breakdown in provision of a health service.” Can we imagine a situation where the Secretary of State has concerns about a health service and that an approach to assist a local provider would be rebuffed?”
“There are ample powers to enable the Secretary of State to intervene and resolve breakdowns in the provision of a health service. On clause 10, we must balance what it adds in those situations against its potential misuse by an ideologically driven Government that are determined to privatise our NHS.”
“It was a pleasure to join my right hon. Friend at Greenwich council’s development of 435 council properties in my constituency for the launch of the social and affordable housing programme. Some 70,000 homes are planned, and that is welcome and overdue.”
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“Friend is absolutely right to underline that we have to keep pushing: the current participation rates are not acceptable. I go back to the point I made about instilling confidence and consciousness about activity in young children at an early age. That is demonstrated by the fact that, sadly, as women get older and make choices for themselves, it is often clear that sport has not been a good experience for them, and they lose interest in it. We have to challenge that. Several hon. Members called for a cross-Government strategy, and I agree with them. I commend to everyone the Opposition consultation document, “More Sport For All”, which we published in July.”
“Absolutely—that is important. Many benefits come from investment in coastal pathways and the kinds of pathways that the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford talked about, which link up through her constituency. Many other hon. Members made similar points. The rural economy benefits from people being able to access the countryside more easily. I have a couple more points, which I will move on to. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South is a doughty fighter for women’s participation in sport, and made some important points about the lack of commercial investment going into women’s sport. Rugby is pointing the way, with full-time contracts for the women’s rugby sevens squad building up to the Rio Olympics. My hon.”
“In conclusion, I am grateful for this important debate to discuss all aspects of outdoor recreation and activity, and I urge the Minister to respond to the six points on the agenda of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore.”
“We need to ensure that the sports that are bigger money spinners put money back into facilities. I am thinking of football in particular—we need to make sure that the Premier League lives up to its promises about putting money back into grass-roots sport. If such investment goes into facilities in our communities, all sports may benefit, not just football. There was a story in the papers today about Queens Park Rangers perhaps having to pay a £40 million fine because it broke its financial fair play rules. If that is the case and that money must go to charity, I urge the authorities to put it back not into grass roots facilities in football, but into grass roots facilities in our communities so that people can become active in sport.”
“Reference was made during the debate to safety in the countryside; that is an important issue and one we should all remember. New technology was referred to, but in a negative way, as something that discourages people from getting involved in sport. We need to look at it as a challenge and a way to provide people with information, to enable easier access for them, whether that be to sports facilities or other services. That technology is an important tool that we need to develop. I have one last point to make. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore for securing this debate. Some points have been made about sports facilities; they are not necessarily anything to do with countryside recreational activities, but I would also like to raise them.”
“This has been an informative and enjoyable debate. Although he has not spoken, I am pleased to see the hon. and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) in his place, because he and I made our own contributions to non-league football back in the early ‘80s when we ran Pembroke House youth club football team. His administration skills are legendary.”
“Members have done a fine job in representing football fans and bringing attention to the issues that need to be addressed if we are to save our game for the future.”
“Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) referred to being a touchline dad and to “Cruncher Evans”. Perhaps we should bear a thought for the players who might come across “Cruncher” in future, as well as wishing him the best for his future footballing career. Football is vital to our local communities. We have a very rich sport, but unfortunately not enough of the resources at the highest level of the game reach down to the lower levels. Only a very small amount of that money getting down to the non-league level could make a huge difference not just to those clubs, but to the contribution they make to their local communities and to the production of fine footballers for future generations. I hope that the people who operate at the top of the game are listening to today’s debate, because hon.”
“It has been at the forefront of tackling many social issues, such as racism and many forms of prejudice. I would challenge anyone to find another sport that has had a greater impact than football. It has had its problems, and still has problems that need to be addressed, but it makes a huge contribution and a big difference to our communities. It is absolutely vital. The hon. and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire said that football can change the lives of young people, and we have all seen fine examples of that in our communities. Many hon. Members have mentioned the impact football has had in their constituencies. I wish I could have gone into that in more detail. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) came up with the ultimate anecdote of community spirit, while the hon.”
“I would like those examined in more detail to see if more formal arrangements can be built up between lower league clubs and clubs that enjoy the riches at the higher levels so that investment can be made not just in players on loan, but in facilities, sending coaches down, training coaches and advising clubs on physio, diet and all the sorts of things that improve the game. With such investment at the lower level, we could increase the pool of talent there, and if we can increase the number of players enjoying the best facilities at the lower end of our national game, perhaps those diamonds in the rough will come through and benefit the elite game. Many hon. Members have spoken about how community spirit is touched by football. There are few public bodies, organisations or businesses that touch our communities like football does.”
“When £835 million can be spent in the transfer market, but clubs such as Salisbury City, Hereford and others can nearly go out of existence over relatively tiny sums of money, there is something seriously wrong at the heart of our game and we need to do more. I do not think we need another division below the football league. When resources and finances are so thinly spread at that level, it does not make sense to add another division and spread them even more thinly. The document put forward by the FA and Greg Dyke recommends strategic loan agreements.”
“Gentleman also highlighted how the Football Association and the leagues have got to get their act together in deciding who is a fit and proper person to run a club. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made the important point that there should be registration before ownership. We need to sharpen up that process because too many people are gaining ownership of clubs before it is completed, and that is having devastating consequences for football clubs. Many hon. Members spoke about the importance of football in their local communities—so many that in this short time I cannot mention everyone. I, too, think it important that the premier league and the FA better support football at the lower levels.”
“If that does not make people go out and support their non-league side, I do not know what will. Sadly, I cannot accept the invitation from Cray Valley in my own constituency this week because I will be in central London speaking to and welcoming the Darlo Mums, who are marching down from Jarrow to save our NHS. However, I wish Cray Valley all the best against Rochester on Saturday. The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire raised some important issues and was right to highlight the problems at Hereford United. He reminded us of the spirit of Ronnie Radford and the way in which John Motson burst on to our television screens in that famous victory against Newcastle. The fact that such a club should be brought to its knees and face extinction because of poor management is a tragedy. The hon.”
“They have indeed, and I am still in touch with some of them. Youth football certainly makes a significant contribution, as many hon. Members have said in this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman). This is a timely debate because it comes a couple of days before national non-league day. In this period the premier league and many football league clubs are not playing; it is an opportunity for people to support non-league sides, which we encourage them to do. National non-league day has had a significant impact on attendance over the past couple of years. Vanarama, which—surprisingly enough—sells vans, has said that it will contribute 10p for every fan who attends a conference game this week. If the number gets above 50,000, it will double its £10,000 contribution to Prostate Cancer UK.”
“I unequivocally condemn the firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas, but the Prime Minister has to accept that the response from Israel is disproportionate. The disregard for the safety of innocent civilians, whether they are in Israel or Gaza or in an aeroplane over Ukraine, is unacceptable, and international law must be applied. On Ukraine, is the Prime Minister satisfied that western banks applied the proper criteria when money was being hollowed out of the finances within Ukraine and smuggled out of that country and into bank accounts in the west? It has led to the situation in Ukraine today. Will he ensure at tomorrow’s meeting of Foreign Ministers that an investigation is instigated into that?”
“The Secretary of State needs to understand that when we ask questions in the House, we expect frank, honest and accurate answers from the Government, but that is not what we have had. He suggests that Sir Bob Kerslake did not know what he was talking about when he gave his answers to the Public Accounts Committee. Will Sir Bob Kerslake correct the record, or are we being misled again?”
“Despite recent sporting setbacks, our enthusiasm remains at fever pitch. Will the Minister, like me, be among the 3 million people it is anticipated will go to watch the start of the Tour de France this weekend? The Grand Départ will showcase some of Britain’s most beautiful countryside. Will he join me in wishing Yorkshire every success in hosting this event and wish every participant well, and, of course, success to our British riders? What is he doing to ensure that the event goes smoothly and that the region continues to benefit from the boost to tourism that it will get from hosting this event?”
“The debate about our future role in Europe would be better informed if we knew what the red-line issues were that would force the Prime Minister to recommend a no vote in his referendum. Will he say when he will let the public know what those red line issues are, so that they can have a more informed debate about Europe?”
“In his letter to the Chair of the Treasury Committee, the chair of the OBR referred to this process facilitating coalition discussions, if needed, after an election.”
“The right hon. Lady will be aware that the shadow Chancellor wrote to the Chancellor last October. How many meetings have Ministers had with the chair of the OBR to discuss this issue in the intervening period?”
“In that case, the right hon. Lady is indicating that these discussions have taken place and that there have been meetings at which this issue has been discussed. If so, did the chair of the OBR indicate whether, if a consensus could be reached before the end of June, he could deliver these budget assessments before the general election?”
“In his letter to the Chair of the Treasury Committee, he said: “As we have discussed, I believe that independent scrutiny of pre-election policy proposals could contribute to better policy making, to a more informed public debate, and could help facilitate coalition formation when party programmes need to be reconciled.” So he is clear that considerable benefits would come from going through this process. I do not think that my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor would mislead the House—I know he would not. He has had discussions with the chair—”
“The crux of it is: are the Government prepared to put their economic policies to an independent audit so that they can be put before the public at an election and the public can be better informed when they make up their minds? The time has come for the major parties, particularly those that might wish to take part in television debates and be taken seriously, to have their proposals independently audited by the OBR. The OBR scrutinises Government tax policies and expenditure policies on behalf of the public, so why would we not do this for would-be Governments when there is a general election? Surely the public have a right to be as well informed as possible. The chair of the OBR agrees with that.”
“Some people like bits from one side and bits from the other side of the argument. They may like the idea of tax cuts but prefer their public services to be kept intact. They may like the idea of a national insurance reduction but they love their national health service. So how do they decide who is telling the truth and whose sums add up? The Tories have been making outrageous claims about Labour’s spending commitments. We say that they are misleading people, and to prove it we are prepared to put our proposals to an independent audit by the OBR in order to say whether or not the sums add up. That is the simple element of this argument.”
“I have been listening to the debate and I really do wonder what the Government are afraid of. We are talking about the democratic process. The most important people in this debate are the general public: the people who vote. What can possibly be wrong with making them better informed about the economic policies of the parties that would be in government? Opposition Members hear a lot from the Government about economic policy and the “long-term economic plan”. The Minister mentioned it four times in her speech—she may be reprimanded for not mentioning it enough. That is more than a hint about what is going to be at the heart of the debate at the next general election; we know that the economy is going to feature prominently. We also know that many people find the economic arguments put forward during an election period very complex.”
“As for the arguments about specialist skills, the chairman of the OBR is saying that he can deliver on this if we can get an agreement in principle now and if we can start to go through the details by the end of the summer. He is the first person we would go to if we were trying to set this up, so if he is saying—”
“No, I am trying to be disciplined because I have been in here too many times when people have taken loads of interventions and others have not had a chance to speak. The Government have had plenty of time to have meetings about this issue over a long period of time. We have challenged Ministers about this, asking whether they have discussed it during any meetings. They have said in the past that they are committed to audits, so it is extraordinary that the Government cannot refer to any meeting where they have discussed this issue with the chairman of the OBR. That is an absolute disgrace; this is about having a better informed debate at a general election and they should be ashamed of themselves. Clearly, they have completely ignored this issue because they do not want to go through the process.”
“The chairman of the OBR has been before the Select Committee and clearly indicated that he is favour of the proposal, and that has been questioned in this House. I find that absolutely incredible. It just shows us how much the Tory Government are wriggling on a hook to try to weasel out of this proposal. The public will make up their own minds from a better informed position if we were to take this proposal forward. Only a Government who are up to no good could oppose the proposal. The time has come for this proposal to be taken forward, the OBR should be given the legal power to audit our plans, and the Government should get out of the way and allow it to happen.”
“I will not give way, and I have explained why. If the chair of the OBR is saying, “I can do this if you make this decision now”, who is to question that? It should not be the Government, who have an ulterior motive in not having their economic policies and, more importantly, the misinformation they put out about their opponents scrutinised. If the Opposition’s budgets were examined, the Government would no longer be able to misinform people about those budgets. That is the truth of why the Government are ducking out of this. It is incredible for the Minister to stand there as an elected Member in this House and question the veracity of evidence that has been given to the Select Committee.”
“The Chancellor talks about credibility in economic policy, yet he consistently sets his face against having his economic policies, along with those of the other major parties—certainly those that would take part in television debates before the next general election—put before the Office for Budget Responsibility so that the electorate can understand what parties are saying about economic policy and be better informed when they vote.”
“20. Judge Robert Martin has said that Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service has seen a huge reduction in the number of work capability assessment appeals, not because of the quality of decisions, but because of the huge backlog and the quality of the service that is being provided.”
“The Secretary of State has confirmed that the evidence that was given to the Education Committee by the Minister for Schools was accurate. Would the Minister for Schools, had he bothered to attend today, agree with that statement and confirm that he still holds the same position?”
“Yesterday, the Minister carried out a U-turn on online gambling and FOBT machines. She has accepted our call for councils to be given planning powers to restrict the clustering of betting shops, but she has done nothing for those who want to respond to local concerns about the numbers of FOBT machines they already have. We welcome the fact that after more than two years of refusing to act, the Government have finally accepted our proposals. She also announced a £50 limit on stakes on FOBT machines, which she relies on the betting industry to impose. What evidence has she seen that convinces her that a £50 limit will deal with problem gambling? She is aware of research being conducted by NatCen. If that says that the £50 limit should be lowered, will she act?”
“Q13. When bankers’ salaries have gone up by five times the rate of ordinary workers’ salaries and the top 100 chief executive officers are earning 133 times more than the average worker in their companies, is it not right that those on the highest incomes contribute the most through tax? With that in mind, will the Prime Minister rule out any consideration of a further cut in the highest rate of tax for the richest 1%?”
“However, I received an e-mail of gratitude from the British Horseracing Authority, expressing its appreciation for my support, which said: “I hope that we can get you along to a race meeting in the near future, potentially for the inaugural running of the ‘Clive Efford Cup’”. I am sure that that was said in jest, but I will not stand in anyone’s way if that is what they want to do. This is a welcome about-turn from the Government. We certainly support the amendment. I hope that the Minister will give an assurance about the time scales, because we do not want there to be any delay that could be avoided in implementing the levy on online gambling because, in the meantime, the industry will be missing out on significant income that could be put to good use, as I have set out today. I hope that the House will support the amendment.”
“If it is used not to provide those wider benefits, but to inflate prizes at the expense of lower-paid workers in the industry, the support for the levy in the House might dissipate and the industry might lose important income. We all have a duty to pay close attention to what the money is used for when it finally reaches the industry. I pay tribute to the Members of the House of Lords who supported the amendments that we tabled, not least the amendment before us. I pay particular tribute to Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Collins of Highbury. I would not go so far as to suggest that someone should name a racehorse or even a stakes race after each of them.”
“My noble Friend Lord Lipsey spoke of his opposition to it in the other place. I share some of his concerns. If we go ahead with extending the levy and it generates an additional £20 million for the horse racing industry, what exactly will the Minister do to ensure that it benefits the wider horse racing industry and not just the haves at the expense of the have-nots? That investment should benefit the low-paid workers in the industry, generate economic activity in rural areas, and perhaps even support struggling race courses to become viable and keep people in their jobs. The amendment will provide a great deal of support to the industry and could mean £20 million of investment. The industry must use it wisely.”
“Furthermore, we are persuaded that including a clause about extending the levy to offshore remote operators is fully in keeping with the context and purpose of the Bill.” —[ Official Report, House of Lords, 4 March 2014; Vol. 752, c. 1301.] Will the Minister explain to the House—I will allow her to intervene—exactly what changed between our discussions in the House of Commons and those in the House of Lords? There has been a complete about-turn in the Government’s position on this issue. It is important that there are no delays. The Minister said that she hoped that the consultation would start in May. Will she clarify whether it will conclude before the annual review of the levy terms, which will take place in October? I know that there is concern about the horserace betting levy.”
“When I moved the amendment on Report, the Minister said: “First, I do not believe that we should assume that genuine levy reform lies in merely extending the existing levy scheme… Secondly, as I have said previously, any extension of the levy to offshore bookmakers as a result of the new clauses”— the ones I had tabled— “would require EU Commission approval because the levy is a state aid scheme. I will not implement the proposals, for which we do not have EU approval in respect of state aid.” —[ Official Report , 26 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 195.] When the Bill reached the Lords—following some to-ing and fro-ing between the Opposition, Cross Benchers and the Government—Lord Gardiner of Kimble moved an amendment, and said: “We agree with the view that while we still have a statutory levy, it should be fairly applied.”
“In Committee, I warned the Minister that she might face more tenacious support for the horse racing industry than comes from most Members of the House of Commons. After I had told her that she might face more fanatical opposition in the House of Lords, she said: “I am not sure that I understand quite what the hon. Member means by the horse racing fanatics in the other place, but I look forward to finding out.” –– [ Official Report, Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Public Bill Committee, 19 November 2013; c. 141.] She well and truly found out when the Bill arrived in the Lords.”
“Horse racing is inextricably linked with gambling like no other sport, with the exception of greyhound racing. As online gambling has grown, betting operators have moved offshore, which has contributed to a fall in revenue from the levy from an average of about £106 million between 2003-04 and 2008-09 to £66.7 million now. The industry says that that has led the number of horses in training to go down by 14.2% between 2008 and 2013, and foal production to go down by 25.3% during the same period. The Lords amendment is therefore very important. We welcome the Government’s about-turn and their support for our position on the levy. The Minister has accepted our position, but a review may take a very long time. What does she think is the time scale for the review? When will the end date be for a major review of the betting levy?”
“There are two key issues: the application of the existing levy to online gamblers, and a consultation on the levy’s replacement in the long term. It is worth putting in context why the levy is necessary to support the horse racing industry. British horse racing is a major sport. It is the country’s second most popular sport, with 5.68 million attendees, according to the British Horseracing Authority. It is also the second largest sporting employer. British racing supports a predominantly rural industry that makes a significant contribution to the British economy. It generates £3.45 billion in annual expenditure, provides direct and associated employment for 85,000 people and assists in leveraging billions of pounds of inward investment.”
“We welcome the Government amendment and their change of heart on the alteration that we proposed both in Committee and on Report. We pay tribute to the Members of the House of Lords who took up several of the issues that we raised during the Bill’s passage through this House. They have been very successful in gaining Government support for our amendments, notably in relation to sport spread betting, pre-watershed gambling advertising and its impact on children, a one-stop shop for problem gamblers and financial blocking. On all those areas, the Government said that change was not necessary or desirable, but it is very welcome that they have now changed their mind. We welcome the Lords amendment on the horserace betting levy.”
“May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that the outcome is the same? We will apply the existing levy—assuming we get European Commission approval—to online gamblers, and the Government will consult on a future levy for the longer term. The outcome is the same whether the amendment has been mildly adjusted or not.”
“In Committee we tabled two amendments, one of which would have done what the hon. Gentleman has set out. We also offered the Government the opportunity to consider taking the reserved power in the longer term. That was the amendment we brought to the House on Report, and he voted against the reserved power, which is again set out in this amendment.”
“A review of the levy terms will take place in October. We are pretty clear about what we want to consult on in relation to the extension of the existing levy. Why can we not complete the consultation in time for the review, so that we can aim for earlier implementation? The longer we delay, the more the horseracing industry will miss out on potential income.”
“Having stood shoulder to shoulder with the betting industry, the Government have been forced into a series of humiliating climbdowns in the Lords on virtually everything that we have been telling them that they must do—review of pre-watershed advertising, regulating spread betting, one-stop shop for self-exclusion and adopting the code of the Association of British Bookmakers as mandatory, having told us that that was unnecessary. I wonder whether the Minister ever feels that she is in office, but that we are running her Department. I have another instruction for the Minister: give councils the powers that they are calling for to limit the number of fixed odds betting terminals in their areas. Are the Government on the side of local people or of the betting industry?”
“In my experience, announcements made at the Dispatch Box often sound very fair, but when we look at the detail we find a lot of the devil in there as well. I caution Government Back Benchers to heed those words. Some local authorities are missing out but will receive what is effectively transitional funding. How long will that last? Will they fall off a precipice in 2016 and find themselves severely disadvantaged? What transparency will there be, because it is very important that we are able to scrutinise this, including in relation to capital funding? I am waiting for Corelli college in my constituency to hear from the Education Funding Agency, but it is very difficult to find out by what criteria it is being judged so that I know what to expect when funding is decided. We need more transparency in all cases.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We were told that the figures for our constituencies would be in the document, but I went to the Vote Office and they are not. We have only a list of 62 authorities that have benefited from the £350 million that has been announced today. Furthermore—this is important—the document states that there are implications for converging funding under one formula in the future. That clearly has serious consequences for the constituents of those of us who miss out, but we are not being told. We have a right to know.”
“Many Members prayed in aid the fact that the report was delivered to the Secretary of State only today, and suggested that the debate was therefore premature. Does my hon. Friend agree that debates in the House can often focus the attention of those outside the House? Perhaps it is no coincidence that the report was produced on the same day that we are holding this debate. That is testimony to the work of the Backbench Business Committee in arranging the debate for today.”