Clive Efford
MP for Eltham and Chislehurst · Labour · United Kingdom
“Thank you for allowing me to take part in this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that I was not here at the beginning—I was carrying out my duties elsewhere in the House. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. What is she likely to do in my part of south-east London for technical and vocational places?”
“I rise to speak to amendment 97 in my name, which would remove clause 10 from the Bill. Clause 10 gives powers to the Secretary of State to vary the proportion of public and private provision of health services if they consider that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”
“Labour’s 2024 plan to make work pay set out a welcome desire to bring more essential services back into public control—something that is welcomed by health workers across the country, because so far the “biggest wave of insourcing in a generation”, as was promised, has felt more like a trickle when it comes to the NHS.”
“The explanatory notes for the Bill say that this new flexibility is necessary “where there may otherwise be a breakdown in provision of a health service.” Can we imagine a situation where the Secretary of State has concerns about a health service and that an approach to assist a local provider would be rebuffed?”
“There are ample powers to enable the Secretary of State to intervene and resolve breakdowns in the provision of a health service. On clause 10, we must balance what it adds in those situations against its potential misuse by an ideologically driven Government that are determined to privatise our NHS.”
“It was a pleasure to join my right hon. Friend at Greenwich council’s development of 435 council properties in my constituency for the launch of the social and affordable housing programme. Some 70,000 homes are planned, and that is welcome and overdue.”
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“Will the Secretary of State guarantee that the public inquiry will not just focus on the SDS but take in those wider issues, because nothing short of that will be satisfactory to the public or the family of Stephen Lawrence?”
“I contacted the IPCC and the Metropolitan police and asked to know in what way his activities affected the inquiry. In a meeting with the Metropolitan police, I was told categorically that his corruption had nothing whatsoever to do with the investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence. We now know from the Ellison inquiry that the evidence on that was destroyed, so on what basis did the Metropolitan police tell me that? I also asked the IPCC to investigate what other crimes Detective Sergeant Davidson had been involved in that may have been corrupted by his illegal activities, and answer got I none. All this information needs to be investigated thoroughly in a full public inquiry.”
“I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement that there is to be an inquiry into the goings-on within the SDS. However, we should not be sidetracked from the core issue that initiated the Ellison investigation and review, which is that corruption was an influence over the investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence and that evidence and information were withheld from the Macpherson inquiry. I would like the Secretary of State to confirm that that will be addressed in part of the public inquiry where people have to come and give evidence under oath. In July 2006, there was a programme on TV called “The Boys Who Killed Stephen Lawrence”. Deputy Commissioner John Yates went on that programme and said that Detective Sergeant John Davidson was a corrupt officer.”
“I do not recollect the House sitting over the weekend. I think the most appropriate place for the Government to announce changes in policy is in this House, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wonder whether you have had any notice from the Secretary of State that she intends to come here and explain herself.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you have had any indication of whether the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport intends to come to the House to make a statement. A letter has just been issued in which the Government now accept many of the amendments that we had tabled to the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill on such issues as the watershed, a one-stop shop for problem gamblers, spread betting and financial blocking. This includes adopting many of the measures that we were calling for to protect vulnerable people in relation to fixed odds betting terminals in betting shops. That is a complete turnabout from the Government’s initial position, when they resisted all our amendments. The letter also refers to the Government announcing their position over the weekend.”
“The Minister knows that there is widespread concern about the fall in the number of people on the electoral register as a result of individual electoral registration. Just how many people would have to disappear from the list before the Government pulled the plug on the project?”
“Can the Attorney-General say what discussions he has had with America regarding the extradition of people who may be guilty of fixing the LIBOR? Progress is lacking in prosecuting people involved in LIBOR-fixing; does this increase the likelihood of their being extradited?”
“On Christmas eve, 35 properties in my constituency were flooded, not because any flood defences were overwhelmed but because of the failure of the Environment Agency to keep a culvert clear. Its failure to accept responsibility for that has major implications for future insurance premiums for my constituents. In addition, it has altered the area of the floodplain. When my constituents renew their insurance, they are finding that it has gone up from an average of £500 a year to nearly £6,000 a year. Will the Secretary of State discuss those matters with the Environment Agency? Will he get it to accept responsibility for that event and discuss with it the implications of the floodplain for my constituents’ insurance policies?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that at the moment London’s housing market is being turned into a Klondike for wealthy foreigners to make money? There are examples such as those my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) has given; there is also the Ram brewery in Wandsworth, which has just been sold to Chinese developers who will build 600 exclusive high-development houses with no social housing whatever.”
“My hon. Friend is right, but does he agree that we must rumble the Mayor of London for constantly making promises on which he has no intention of delivering? In 2008 he promised 50,000 houses by 2011. That figure went up to 55,000 by 2012 and it is now 100,000, but between April and November last year only 2,235 of those houses were started. He missed his targets again. He constantly does it, and he is letting down the people of London.”
“The review of category B machines affects Scotland as much as any other part of the country. In answer to a question about FOBTs from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition on 8 January, the Prime Minister said: “We will be reporting in the spring as a result of the review that is under way, and I think it is important that we get to grips with this.” —[ Official Report , 8 January 2014; Vol. 573, c. 295.] Will the Minister confirm that we will get to grips with FOBTs in betting shops in the spring and that, most importantly, that will include a review of the £100 stake and £500 prize money maximums?”
“Q6. Increasingly in London, young people are finding it impossible to afford to rent or buy a home, so why, under this Government, are we seeing the lowest number of housing starts since the 1920s and a housing bubble driven by wealthy overseas buyers?”
“The Secretary of State has gone to the trouble of getting a letter from South Leeds academy to make his argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) has said that he has been in contact with the Secretary of State’s office constantly to get similar information about Al-Madinah, but he has not bothered to investigate that school in the same way. Why is that?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that if the details of tickets were provided to the organising body and they were being sold illegally, it could then cancel them? That information would be important in enforcing the proposal.”
“We can wait for legislation—I am sure that we will have detailed discussions about secondary ticketing market regulation when the consumer protection Bill is introduced—but when we meet, will the Minister guarantee that we will sit down and talk about how we will designate the rugby union world cup 2015 in order to protect fans from being exploited in the secondary ticketing market on the internet?”
“The Metropolitan police report later states that there is a “lack of legislation outlawing” the practice. In 2005, the then shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), who became the Minister for Sport and the Olympics, said that ticket touting had a “knock-on effect” on the availability of tickets for real fans, and that “ticket touting is now part of a vast organised criminal business.”—[ Official Report, Standing Committee D, 18 October 2005; c. 101.] When the Government were in opposition, they put forward exactly the same arguments as we are making today. Those arguments apply even more so now with the advancement of the secondary ticketing market on the internet. I welcome the Minister’s offer of a meeting to discuss the issue.”
“Time has moved on, and the Metropolitan police report that I have referred to states: “The absence of a regulatory or legislative framework (apart from designated football matches) enables fraud, unscrupulous practices and a lack of transparency. This clearly places the public at risk. This matter was last considered by a Culture, Media and Sport select committee report in 2007.” I think that report was actually in 2008. The Metropolitan police report continues: “It is noted that, since then, the Internet has grown exponentially providing even more opportunities for fraudsters and unauthorised sellers to exploit.” The Metropolitan police force has conducted a serious study into this area of operation since the 2012 Olympics and since the Select Committee’s report, and it has reached the conclusion that something needs to happen.”
“She states that the responses were broadly in line with the findings of the report by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee in 2008, and says that the consultation found that the biggest issue with regard to ticket resale concerned the practice of purchasing large numbers of tickets with the sole intention of releasing them back into the secondary market. That is exactly the point that we were raising, and we did not need it to be reiterated. She went on to say that the Department had looked at the Select Committee findings and the conclusions of the previous Government, and that it was broadly in agreement.”
“They want fans to be able to buy tickets at affordable prices so that a good cross-section of our communities and sports fans attend the events. What is wrong with that? Inevitably, however, criminal organisations and people who, even if they are not involved in criminal gangs, attempt to avoid paying tax on the profits that they earn from reselling tickets will buy tickets from under the noses of the fans. In so doing, they will completely undermine the ticketing policy that we, as politicians, have demanded of the England rugby world cup 2015 to try to ensure that tickets are accessible. In my letter to the Minister, I asked for co-operation across the House to pass legislation to protect rugby fans from such exploitation. In her response, she mentions a consultation by the previous Government on ticketing.”
“Friend has set out, to hoover up tickets through networks of computers, botnets and so on ahead of genuine fans—the hon. Member for Shipley is no doubt wriggling in his seat at the mention of those words—whom they will force to pay extortionately high prices for those tickets. I wrote to the Minister to ask that the rugby world cup, like the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics, be given a specific designation as an event of national significance to protect rugby fans. The organisers of the rugby world cup have priced their tickets to make them accessible to a range of fans, and they want to be able to resell returned tickets at face value through their own ticketing regime and reimburse the original purchasers.”
“I would expect that to be part of the deal, but it is obviously not. People who use such sites are subject to some dubious additional charges, which is another area of concern. The police inform us that touts are often linked to criminal gangs, and touting is estimated to raise some £40 million a year for organised criminal networks. The report “Ticket Crime: Problem Profile” published by the Metropolitan police in February 2013 states: “Intelligence suggests that OCNs engaged in ticket crime have links to other organised crime, including the importation and production of drugs, as well as the smuggling of firearms and money laundering.” We have heard impassioned pleas for a free market that facilitates such criminal activity, which is totally irresponsible and unjustifiable. Criminal gangs are well equipped, as my hon.”
“Presumably, he sees bank robbery as a form of redistribution of wealth and considers any form of crime that takes from the rich and gives to the poor to be justifiable in terms of the free market. At the moment, 14 sets of tickets for the rugby world cup are available on the viagogo site. Tickets for that event will not even go on sale until autumn of next year, and the tournament will take place a year after that. When people do not even own those tickets yet, how can they be offering them for sale? The tickets on offer range from £86 to £10,000, and the two £10,000 tickets carry a £3,000 surcharge to cover the ticket guarantee and customer service. I would have thought that that was well and truly covered in the £10,000 price. What sort of extra cover could anyone need from viagogo to get a ticket guarantee?”
“Let us face it; there is no other form of retail in which a consumer cannot examine the full details of a product. Rugby union made a challenge against viagogo on that basis, to try to secure access to such information. We must protect the consumer against organised gangs of touts. The hon. Members for High Peak (Andrew Bingham), for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Shipley made passionate speeches in favour of the free market. I have had various descriptions of redistribution of wealth thrust at me, but that given by the hon. Member for Shipley was a new one on me. He did not mention the link between crime and many instances in which people hoover up large numbers of tickets and sell them on.”
“They did not necessarily buy tickets with the intention of making a profit and fail to sell them on. We must have a robust secondary ticketing market that is properly regulated and that gives consumers protection. The secondary ticketing market must also allow organisers to monitor what is going on. The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said that if somebody buys a ticket, they own the rights to it and can do what they like with it, but that is not true. When someone buys a ticket, they enter into a contract with the organiser. In many instances, the organiser makes stipulations regarding the selling on of tickets, which must be honoured. The ticketing market must be regulated and provide that information so that organisers can check ticket details at the point of sale.”
“It is a pleasure to take part in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson). She has been a tireless campaigner on the matter and is determined to protect the consumer, who is frequently ripped off by people exploiting the secondary ticketing market. We need to get one or two things clear at the start. No one is suggesting that people should not be able to resell their tickets if they have a legitimate reason to do so, such as if they are unable to attend an event. We have all been in similar situations. The viagogo figure of 50% of tickets being sold for their face value or less arises because many people use the secondary ticketing market to try to minimise their losses when they cannot attend events.”
“I have listened to my hon. Friend listing the events. Does he think that it is tragic that we are going to lose this important venue, which was so central to our successful bid to win and host a successful Olympic games and Paralympics in 2012, and that losing it in this way will close off the opportunity for London to host such major sporting events in future?”
“Time after time, people turn up at local planning or licensing meetings and watch in disbelief as councillors who are known to oppose plans are forced to allow another betting shop to open because the legal process favours the lawyers representing the interests of the betting shops. That cannot go on. It causes people to lose faith in local democracy, and we will stop it. Councillors must be allowed some discretion; they should not be expected simply to rubber-stamp such applications.”
“Many people throughout the country are concerned about the impact of betting shops on their high streets. They are worried that the shops are clustered in close proximity to one another, and that they are too often close to communities with high levels of deprivation. We are not suggesting that there is a problem in every community, which is why we are not proposing that the Government should introduce a blanket ban. Instead, we are calling for local councillors to be given real powers so that they are able to respond to the concerns of their local communities and to act responsibly in the interests of the people who elect them. Too often, we hear of councillors being frustrated that they are unable to support local residents.”
“I beg to move, That this House is concerned that the clustering of betting shops in or close to deprived communities is being driven by increasing revenue from fixed odds betting terminals (FOBT) rather than traditional over the counter betting; believes that this has encouraged betting shop operators to open more than one premises in close proximity to one another; is aware of the growing concern in many communities about the detrimental effect this is having on the diversity and character of UK high streets; is alarmed that people can stake as much as £100 every 20 seconds on these machines; is further concerned that the practice of single staffing in betting shops leaves staff vulnerable and deters them from intervening if customers suffer heavy losses thereby undermining efforts by the betting industry to protect vulnerable customers; further believes that local authorities should be able to establish a separate planning class for betting shops and that they should be given additional licensing powers to determine the number of FOBT machines within existing and proposed shops and to require that the machines are modified to slow the rate of play and to interrupt when people play for long periods; and calls on the Government to put local people before the interests of the betting shop operators and give local authorities the powers they need to respond to concerns from their local communities and stop the proliferation of FOBT machines and betting shops.”
“The legislation that brought in fixed odds betting terminals actually predated the Gambling Act, but in that Act we limited the number of machines to four per shop. What is unprecedented is the fact that the amount of money that can be taken from the machines is now greater than what can be taken from over-the-counter betting, and that is what is driving the clustering of betting shops on our high streets. However, the Government are refusing to deal with the problem. They must accept that there are more betting shops close to areas of high deprivation. This is borne out by research—”
“I will certainly give way when I have finished making this point. A report on machine density by experts in gambling including Heather Wardle, who leads key studies such as the gambling prevalence survey, has stated: “The distribution of gambling machines in Great Britain…displays a significant association with areas of socio-economic deprivation. The profile of the resident population living in HDMZs”— high-density machine zones— “mirrors the profile of those most at-risk of experiencing harm from gambling.” We cannot stand back and allow this to continue.”
“Sadly, that situation is repeated in too many places throughout the country, and it is time that the Government recognised that the problem can be dealt with only at a local level.”
“It is, and it flies in the face of the betting industry’s claims about how it trains its staff to deal with problem gambling, because the industry is incentivising them to encourage people to gamble more.”
“We could have a debate about that question itself, because there are many forms of gambling that lead people to become addicts, especially given the rise in online gambling, which has grown into a £2 billion industry over the past few years. It is therefore difficult to extrapolate who is responsible. However, we should do the appropriate research into the impact of FOBTs on problem gambling.”
“I certainly think that the machines are an example of Cameron’s Britain, where there is one rule for our constituents and another for the big businesses that run the betting shops.”
“The motion addresses the concern expressed by my hon. Friend by calling for local councillors to make decisions about the economic activity that takes place in their town centres.”
“I will let the Conservatives in on something—the world changes. Since 2000, a £2 billion online gambling industry has emerged. The gambling industry is evolving. When we passed the 2005 Act, we made it clear that these FOBTs in betting shops were on probation and that we would keep them under review. We are saying that the time has come to deal with the situation, but this Government are refusing to do so.”
“Bet365 is an online gambling company and we are not dealing with that industry today. However, I will just say that Mr Coates’s company is one of the few that has stayed in the UK, that employs people in the UK and that pays taxes in the UK, which is more than can be said for Lord Ashcroft.”
“There is widespread support from local government for what we are calling for. In 2012, when the Local Government Association commissioned an opinion poll on people’s attitudes to planning and our high streets, it found that more than two thirds—68%—of local people were against existing rules allowing betting shops to take over banks and building societies without planning permission.”
“Let me make a little bit of progress before I give way again. The Government have consistently said, “Problem, what problem?” They might not be aware of the problem, but the people in our communities are and they want action. There have been numerous complaints. People talk about the crime and antisocial behaviour associated with betting shops, and about clustering and the detrimental impact on the character and diversity of our high streets. In her report on our high streets, which was commissioned by the Government in 2011, Mary Portas says: “The influx of betting shops, often in more deprived areas, is blighting our high streets.” The Government are aware of the concerns, yet they have consistently refused to give local people powers to stop new shops opening in their communities.”
“Absolutely, and the people who represent staff in the betting industry have been vocal. There are concerns not just about the single staffing of premises and the safety of staff, but about training. To be fair, although the industry has come to the issue of training a bit late, it has started to introduce it for its staff, but it must create an environment in which it can be effective.”
“I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman, but I think that he has been lured by briefings from his own side. This motion is not about problem gambling, but about giving local authorities powers to deal with the proliferation of betting shops in our high streets—for planning and economic regeneration reasons, as well as because of concerns about the social impact of fixed odds betting terminals. We are not trying to suggest that passing the motion will solve problem gambling in relation to FOBTs, and the Prime Minister was mistaken today when he answered the Leader of the Opposition’s question on that matter.”
“It said that local councillors should “be empowered to decide whether or not to give approval to additional gambling venues in their community” and called for “Betting shops to be put in a separate planning use class”. The motion was not from some fringe group but from the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip.”
“One might have thought that they would learn their lesson over university tuition fees, but once the flashbulbs start popping they cannot hold themselves back. They have been photographed saying “Ban the FOBTs” at the Liberal Democrat conference. The Deputy Prime Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Minister for Crime Prevention, the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), the Minister for Schools, who is also a Minister of State in the Cabinet Office, and the hon. Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright) were all photographed backing anti-FOBT campaigners. The Liberal Democrats also passed a motion at their conference in September. What did it call for?”
“His statement goes on to say: “The Mayor proposes that betting shop operators wishing to open up a new outlet should be required to apply for planning permission for the chosen premises, which would allow proper consideration to be given to each proposal for a betting shop and its effect on individual centres.” The Conservative chairman of the LGA and the Tory Mayor for London are both calling for the Government to act. In fact, it is hard to find anyone who supports the Government’s view. Local people want more powers, local government wants more powers and the two highest-ranking Tories in local government want the Government to act, too. Everyone seems to be in agreement except for the Government—well, except for certain parts of the Government. We have had another Liberal Democrat pledge. The Liberal Democrats have been at it again.”
“I assume that the Government have heard of a character called Boris Johnson. He is the Mayor of London and his office issued a statement on the issue of betting shops, saying: “They have grown in number with an increased supply of premises such as vacant banks and pubs that do not require planning permission to be used as a betting shop. Betting firms are attracted to busy high streets and town centres with a ready supply of such premises. This has resulted in clustering in less prosperous areas like Hackney, which has 64 betting shops in the borough, 8 in Mare Street alone, and Deptford”— in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock)— “with seven betting shops on one street.” The would-be leader of the Conservatives supports our view.”
“I will come on to the evidence later in my speech, as what was said about that today really needs to be clarified. There is widespread opposition to the Government’s position on this matter. Back in 2012, when the Local Government Association published the conclusions of its opinion poll, Sir Merrick Cockell, the chairman of the LGA and former Conservative leader of Kensington and Chelsea, said: “This opinion poll shows local people want government to give councils the powers to tackle unsightly clusters of sex shops, bookies and takeaways that can blight so many of our high streets. People want action so the places they live, work and shop can be revitalised to reflect how they want them to look and feel.” The Government talk about localism, but they do not grant the powers even when they are asked to do so by their own colleagues.”
“I shall explain later my exact position on stakes and prizes, which has not changed for two years. I have consistently made my argument on stakes and prizes and I will give the hon. Gentleman a response when I come to that.”
“She should know that early last year, in response to the triennial review of stakes and prizes, I called for changes to be made to the software of these machines, and all those changes are in the motion: longer periods between play; pop-ups to break play and to remind people how long they have been playing; requiring people to load the machines over the counter to force interaction with staff, to give staff the opportunity to interact with customers who may be gambling too much; and an end to single staffing. We have been consistent on these issues, but we have had nothing from the Government except some Lib Dems posing for photographs.”
“She said: “Just a few weeks ago Clive Efford”— that is me, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it is in the quote— “said that there was no evidence to support a change in the stake and prize levels for FOBTs, yet now he is trotting out a totally contradictory line, written for him by his political masters.” I know that the Minister has not been in the job for long, but she really ought to get a better grip on her brief, because there is nothing in the motion about stakes and prizes.”