Clive Efford
MP for Eltham and Chislehurst · Labour · United Kingdom
“Thank you for allowing me to take part in this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that I was not here at the beginning—I was carrying out my duties elsewhere in the House. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. What is she likely to do in my part of south-east London for technical and vocational places?”
“I rise to speak to amendment 97 in my name, which would remove clause 10 from the Bill. Clause 10 gives powers to the Secretary of State to vary the proportion of public and private provision of health services if they consider that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”
“Labour’s 2024 plan to make work pay set out a welcome desire to bring more essential services back into public control—something that is welcomed by health workers across the country, because so far the “biggest wave of insourcing in a generation”, as was promised, has felt more like a trickle when it comes to the NHS.”
“The explanatory notes for the Bill say that this new flexibility is necessary “where there may otherwise be a breakdown in provision of a health service.” Can we imagine a situation where the Secretary of State has concerns about a health service and that an approach to assist a local provider would be rebuffed?”
“There are ample powers to enable the Secretary of State to intervene and resolve breakdowns in the provision of a health service. On clause 10, we must balance what it adds in those situations against its potential misuse by an ideologically driven Government that are determined to privatise our NHS.”
“It was a pleasure to join my right hon. Friend at Greenwich council’s development of 435 council properties in my constituency for the launch of the social and affordable housing programme. Some 70,000 homes are planned, and that is welcome and overdue.”
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“I would take the hon. Gentleman through the miscalculations—[Hon. Members: “Go on!”] If I am to allow the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening) to get in, I cannot go down that route. We are considering the failure of the unbridled privatisation of the London underground. Tube Lines has a completely different internal structure, containing incentives and higher materialisation thresholds, which encourage it to incentivise, innovate and keep its costs down. Metronet was a cash cow, on which stakeholders and shareholders fed until there was nothing left. It was unable to impose any form of accountability or efficiency on the stakeholders and shareholders. Moneylenders to Metronet did not impose any restrictions and the whole edifice came tumbling down.”
“I think that when the arguments about the referendum die down people will understand that the mainstream Conservative party is, quite simply, flatly opposed to our continued membership of Europe. Has my right hon. Friend noticed that he has been intervened on three times by former Secretaries of State who voted for the paving Bill that preceded opposition to the Greater London council? I do not recall any reference to any democratic process or any manifesto during that procedure. Does my right hon. Friend not find their selective memory somewhat astonishing?”
“Will my hon. Friend consider using the £14 million taken in fines from Network Rail to bring forward the purchase of new rolling stock, as set out in the 30-year plan? In particular, we should ensure that capacity exists in the manufacturing industry to deliver on time the rolling stock on which we have made a commitment to spend money.”
“T9. Has my right hon. Friend received any representations to take London’s bendy buses off the road, replace them with Routemaster buses and put 1,700 bus conductors on the buses? Has she had an opportunity to cost those proposals? Does she agree that before people make statements on the radio, they should cost their proposals carefully, otherwise they will not be making policy statements, but staging political stunts? When does she suspect the old Etonians opposite—”
“My hon. Friend is aware of the growing concern among some sectors of the work force, particularly in the building trade, about maintaining rates of pay because of the large influx of EU migrants coming to work in the UK. There are no simple solutions to the problem, but does my hon. Friend think that we should implement measures such as those in the Temporary and Agency Workers (Equal Treatment) Bill, or allow multidisciplinary enforcement teams to go to workplaces such as building sites and make sure that people are properly qualified and are there legitimately? What can he do to implement such schemes?”
“Q8. Does my right hon. Friend share my astonishment that an individual who has openly admitted that he was willing to provide information to facilitate a premeditated assault on another individual should seek to stand to be chair of the Metropolitan Police Authority? What values does that promote to the public, and what does it say other than that the Tories believe that there is one rule for them and another for everybody else?”
“Will my hon. Friend consider the problems faced by disabled people who, on engaging carers, effectively become employers? When my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (John Austin) and I met disabled lobbyists recently at the House, they described their difficulties and the need for guidance and advice. They also pointed out that the different rates paid by local authorities can create problems of recruitment and retention. Will my hon. Friend consider providing some guidance?”
“On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is right, is it not, that no Member should attempt to mislead this House? The hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson) commented on what the Prime Minister said, but it should be recorded that in fact it was the Conservatives in the Greater London authority who opposed the introduction of safer neighbourhood teams.”
“May I congratulate my right hon. Friend and the Government on the leadership that they have shown on this important issue? I hear what he and others have said about the position of the United States, but does he agree that that country is such an important economy in the world that unless it engages fully with this issue, others are unlikely to do so and that that can only diminish the success of negotiations that are achieved in summits such as that in Bali? Does he also agree that although we can have an impact on our 2 per cent. of emissions, one of the biggest impacts that we can have is in exporting technology to developing economies such as China and India? Would he care to say what negotiations he has had on that, and how he thinks we can make a big contribution in that regard?”
“The case has been well made for Crossrail. It is essential not only for London, but for the UK’s wider economy, and the Government and the Select Committee have done an excellent job on behalf of us all. I hope that the Bill gets a fair wind in the other place and we see Crossrail constructed on time and to budget. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich said, I hope that my constituents will be able to catch a train at Woolwich and go all the way to Heathrow, non-stop. That will be very welcome for people from south-east London and we all look forward to that day.”
“For those who are concerned by so much investment going into London, it is important to remember that London is a net exporter of money to the greater economy of the UK. In the Mayor’s submission to the spending review in 2004—“The Case for London”—he highlighted the fact that London exports more than £9 billion to other areas of the UK when public expenditure is calculated against taxes paid. The Corporation of London commissioned Oxford Economic Forecasting to put the case for London, and it highlighted the fact that the capital city imports £110 billion-worth of goods and services from other parts of the country, making London a net importer of resources, a world-class city and the driving force in the UK economy. London also has a catalytic effect on tourism, and financial and business services that benefit the wider country.”
“They forced the Government to think again and were successful in achieving the inclusion of a Crossrail station at Woolwich in the scheme. That is very welcome. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for the way in which he has conducted himself throughout the discussions, because he has shown a willingness to listen and an ability to articulate the difficult position that the Government were in on occasion. We have a satisfactory conclusion at the end of the day. Crossrail is essential for the status of London as a world city. It will contribute 40 per cent. of the necessary increase in transport capacity that London needs if it is to continue to grow and contribute to the British economy.”
“The arguments on Crossrail have been well rehearsed in several previous debates, so I shall be brief. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. Meale) and all the members of the Committee on the way in which they went about their business. There was a strong argument from people in south-east London, ably led by my neighbour and right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), in favour of the station at Woolwich, making that town centre a major hub for the wider south-east London area around Greenwich and Bexley. The Select Committee demonstrated the House at its best by listening to the arguments not only from hon. Members but from others who made representations on behalf of that station.”
“I urge my right hon. Friend to reward those schools that take on the most challenging pupils, because otherwise we will not improve standards in the way that we want to in constituencies such as mine. I welcome his statement on communities becoming involved in providing facilities for local young people. Can he say how those local communities will be able to engage with that, and will he ensure that those voluntary organisations that are already engaged in such work, but are struggling to find core funding, are not overlooked when it comes to the funding that he is making available?”
“The Thameslink development, the lengthening of platforms and the increasing of the electricity supply to increase capacity on the Southeastern network is very welcome in my constituency. When my hon. Friend is considering the route utilisation strategy, will he remember that south-east London is not served by the London underground? That means that there is a heavy reliance on overground rail services for commuters into central London. When he is considering the outcome of that process and the number of trains that might be serving central London, will he also consider that issue for people in south-east London?”
“I am impressed with the right hon. Gentleman’s assiduous attention to detail in naming donors. Will he answer a question for me? How is it that Coleshill manor, the campaign headquarters of the Conservative party, is funded by the Midlands Industrial Council? It is described by the right hon. Gentleman’s leader as an intricate part of the Tory party but it is registered with the Electoral Commission as a regulated donee—”
“Can the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) explain why there is such an intricate web of finance for that centre? Why is it not straightforward and easy for people to understand?”
“I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s speech, but he really cannot get away with the answer that he gave earlier about the Michael Brown money. Has he been approached by any of the people who have suffered from the fraud by Michael Brown, and has the Liberal party given any consideration to how he came by that money and whether it is morally obliged to give it back?”
“May I urge my right hon. Friend to give us a little more time so that we can approach him with a project to salvage the site, if possible? It looks as though it will cost Remploy more to effect its plans than to keep the site open.”
“The reason that my right hon. Friend has not heard from me or my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (John Austin) is that we are not yet in a position to approach him with a project for the Woolwich factory. In our discussions, it has come to light that the cost of the site to the freeholder is £24,000 a year, but it shows up as £140,000 in the Remploy budget for Woolwich. There is more to investigate regarding the Woolwich factory. Remploy has said that it will lay on a bus to take workers from Woolwich to Dagenham, which will take approximately an hour on top of the journey that factory workers have to make to Woolwich to get the bus. The cost is likely to exceed the costs of the site, as described by the freeholder. We believe that more is to be had from the site and that more investigation is needed.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have some sympathy with the idea that Back Benchers should have some say in the subjects for the topical debates. However, surely there should be some formal structure for determining the will of Back Benchers, rather than simply having a group of Members turn up at business questions and hijack it for some political purpose. That will do the House and the country no service and we need to formalise the process so that Back Benchers have some input into it.”
“Talking about the opportunities for employers to participate in providing more apprenticeships, does the Minister agree that one measure of the success of developing sites for the Olympics, for the Thames Gateway and for many other regeneration programmes will be the number of apprenticeship opportunities created by them and how they add to the skills base of this country’s work force?”
“Does he further agree that, rather than suggesting that we might abolish that allowance, it is incumbent on every Member to ensure that we do everything possible to ensure that every 16-year-old is in education, employment or training and does not leave school for a lifetime of idleness and unemployment?”
“Q2. May I add my sympathies to those of my right hon. Friend for my constituent Jake Alderton, who died in Afghanistan last week? I met the family this morning, and they are extremely proud of the work that Jake was doing. He was a credit to his family, to his regiment and to the country.May I also ask my right hon. Friend about youth unemployment? There are 810 young people in my constituency who are not in education, employment or training. Does he agree that that is an absolute disgrace? Will he reflect on how much that figure might be added to if it were not for education maintenance allowances?”
“I understand the frustration with the time that the current planning process takes, particularly when it goes to inquiry. However, the hon. Gentleman made the sweeping statement that the current system does not work, and there was an implication that it is undemocratic. Let me point to the outcome—twice now—of public inquiries relating to the east London river crossing and Thames Gateway bridge. Two planning inspectors turned down those major planning applications, in support of what the local community had been asking for—so the system does work sometimes.”
“I just want to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on doing a U-turn on a bridge that has not yet been built. He has changed his position twice.”
“I welcome the Government’s proposals for trying to streamline some of the processes involved in public inquiries. It might be fine strategically if they are going to set a national plan for three nuclear power stations and then leave the planning commission to sort that out. However, with regard to the Thames Gateway bridge, if it were said, “We need a bridge in east London,” and that was left to an inquiry, that would not be acceptable.”
“When I asked how long the company would be on site from beginning to end, I was told that it would take 10 to 15 years to build 4,400 homes. It cannot be right that it will take that long to implement such a development. Given that the RTPI indicates that 225,000 homes are awaiting building start dates, we will have to set timetables for the implementation of planning applications because we will otherwise not meet the targets that we are setting ourselves. I am absolutely sick and tired of three generations of a family who live in the same home coming to see me in my surgery when I know that there is little that I can do to help them to find housing. The problem is that we are not building homes quickly enough. The planning permission is in place, but the development is not happening.”
“In the few minutes that I have left, I would like to discuss planning. Several Members have said that the crisis in housing has grown despite the Government’s efforts over the past 10 years. In a report that was published in June, the Royal Town Planning Institute indicated that a start date was awaited for the building programmes for 225,000 homes on 14,000 acres of land, although planning permission for the homes had been given. I recently met the private company that has just taken on responsibility for developing the Kidbrooke area. We are going to knock down 1,900 homes on an estate and replace them with 4,400 homes, and we are about a third to half way through decanting the estate. The private company will submit a planning application in the new year to start the first phase of the development.”
“Instead, those who perceive the problem should be part of finding its solution. If we are to empower local communities, we should also empower the tenants to decide who should be their landlord. If we talk about empowering local communities, we are not consistent if we continue to deny local tenants the opportunity to remain council tenants if that is their wish. Any future arrangements for the financing of housing should include that option. Tenants should not be forced down the route of becoming an arm’s length management organisation or any other body that is at arm’s length from the local authority. However, if that happens and difficulties arise, the assumption should be that the housing returns to the control of the local authority and does not pass into the private sector or anywhere else.”
“Ideas came from the local school with the support of the local community and the arguments were put forward at the neighbourhood renewal panel. Therefore, the decisions were made by local people. Similarly with neighbourhood wardens, and the initiative that we took with Charlton Athletic football club that has brought youth work on to the estates, it has all come about as the result of community initiatives—people becoming involved, perceiving a problem and identifying what they would like to do to solve it. We need to find the resources to enable people to become involved. The key to change is having the resources and the local community having the power to take decisions about those resources without the decisions being made for it. Having the decisions taken elsewhere leads to disengagement.”
“Neighbourhood renewal will come to an end at the end of March next year. I have chaired a local neighbourhood renewal project and, through talking to the local community and challenging the local authority to respond to the issues that have been put on the agenda by the local community and not by officers from the local authority, we have actually managed to implement some enormous changes. We now have an adult learning centre at a local school in which £1.5 million has been invested to make it fully accessible to the disabled. The school has been expanded further by introducing a children’s centre. The seedcorn money for that came from decisions that were made at the local neighbourhood renewal panel and that money set everything in train.”
“However, is that community empowerment or is community empowerment about enabling the parents who are concerned about the lack of facilities for young people to come forward to say that something should be done about that? The latter is the real change that we need. I very much welcome the idea of transferring assets but not the idea of the well heeled, well-educated sections of the community coming forward to elbow their way to taking over the running of services in their area. Real changes must take place in the communities where the changes are most needed. However, there is a great deal of good will towards the idea of people coming forward to participate and we must provide the basics so that local people can be empowered to take over the running of local assets and services for themselves. The schemes must be sustainable.”
“I welcome the measures on the empowerment of local councillors; I would have welcomed them when I was a local councillor. However, they might provide an opportunity for people to make trouble just to make a name for themselves. We must be careful to ensure that the councillors empowered to work up projects in their local communities are not just politically motivated and that they are genuinely of the community and for the community. For example, it is easy to organise a petition for speed humps in a road, to demand that the road humps are put in place and then to complain about the council if that is not done. I am sure that we have all been guilty of doing something similar in the past.”
“I urge the Government to consider targeting those powers so that it is not just the sharp-elbowed, well-educated communities that come first and get what they want, but the most deprived and challenged communities are helped to engage in improving the quality of life in their area. If the engagement and empowerment of local communities is to work, the process has to drill down to them, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government said. People are already engaged—they know what is wrong in their communities—and we have to find mechanisms to encourage them and give them a supporting hand to take things to the next stage. Quite often other communities with the wherewithal jump to the front of the queue before the deprived communities get a chance. That is where we must make a difference.”
“For that, we need flexibility so I welcome the consultation document produced by the Department for Communities and Local Government—the action plan for empowering local communities—which states that there will be a reduction in the number of targets set locally to allow local authorities more flexibility. Most of the Members who have spoken in the debate have a local government background, so we know that by the time a local authority receives its rate support grant and other funding 99 per cent. of the money has already been spent on all the statutory functions of local government, such as schools, social services or support for children in care. There is little flexibility in the budget to meet the challenging demands that will come from the empowerment of local communities.”
“When people express concern to us about local community issues, we as politicians need to engage them in the implementation of the solutions. As a Member who works with the local community to try to deal with some of the problems, I feel frustrated that I have no decision-making powers to will people the resources to carry out the changes they want. People in my community propose excellent projects that would make a huge difference, but those projects fall by the wayside because there are neither the resources nor the capacity, through statutory or other bodies, to support such schemes into fruition. If we are to engage with local communities, we need to bring about change in the way that local government and other local statutory bodies work.”
“The Queen’s Speech contains radical proposals on families, climate change, housing and local government. I want to focus on local government and the empowerment of local communities so it is fitting that I follow the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Hurd). I congratulate him on his success in bringing in the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 and on the prospect of its enactment. Many communities feel a sense of detachment, and in this place and elsewhere politicians have debated how we can get our local communities to re-engage with the democratic process. Part of the difficulty is that people can perceive the problems with their communities—they live with them every day—but there is a disconnection between the solutions and their enactment.”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that when people mention antisocial behaviour on buses they are generally referring to young people, particularly in London, where they enjoy concessionary fares? Although there is no excusing antisocial behaviour wherever it occurs, does she agree that we should avoid demonising young people, because that might result in our restricting access to certain services to which they are entitled like everybody else?”
“I know that it will, but it would be nice to have that on the record. In conclusion, I congratulate everyone who has brought us to this juncture. Finally, the south-east extension and a station at Woolwich are fully part of the Crossrail scheme.”
“The Crossrail project is essential to Woolwich’s development as a hub for my community in south-east London and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich said, for the country’s economy. The scheme must go ahead. I shall end with a question for the Minister. I am grateful for the written answer that I received today, the final paragraph of which states: “Main construction of the scheme would begin in 2010, and we expect the first trains to run in 2017 as part of a 12-month build up to the full Crossrail service.” I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me, but we in south-east London are a bit sensitive and are aware that words are open to interpretation. When he responds to the debate, can he confirm that the full Crossrail service will include the south-east extension and the station at Woolwich?”
“I should also like to put on record my congratulations to my local authority of Greenwich. Working with local people, it has led the campaign and also brought the business community on board. We would not be celebrating today without the contribution made by those who will benefit directly from the development of a station at Woolwich. I should also like to put on record my congratulations to the Mayor of London, who has fought so hard for Crossrail. His support for a station at Woolwich may have been a bit belated, but he got there in the end. We never tire of saying that the score is now 3-0 to Greenwich on major infrastructure projects: we won the arguments on the docklands light railway and the Jubilee line, and now we have won the one about Crossrail.”
“Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), I want to congratulate a number of people who have been responsible for getting us to this point. First, I should like to offer my warm thanks to my hon. Friend the Minister, who has approached the matter in such a friendly and open-minded way. All of us in south-east London are delighted that the Government have finally accepted the force of our argument that there should be a station at Woolwich, and that that station is now included in the scheme. I should also like to congratulate the members of the Committee—and in particular its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. Meale)—on the way that they carried out their deliberations and took on board the arguments from the south-east London community about how essential a station at Woolwich is.”
“That is the basis on which we must move forward, and on which Ara Darzi and others must consult my constituents.”
“I accept that services have to change, but we have to move forward on the basis of four hospital sites that each have urgent care facilities. The most urgent and traumatic cases must be dealt with in centres that can provide treatment safely and in a modern setting, providing people with timely interventions that increase the likelihood of survival and of making a full recovery. That is what we are duty-bound to deliver and what our constituents deserve, and it is what we must strive for. There should be no scaremongering about cuts; rather, we should be talking about improving the service. I will accept changes that will improve the service for my constituents, but I am not going to accept changes forced on us because of financial considerations.”
“Across the four PCTs, the increase has been £518.7 million, so we are not talking about cuts in hospital and health service expenditure. We are talking about a reconfiguration of services to meet the modern needs of our NHS—new drugs, new forms of treatment and patient choice. My PCT is about to consult on the reopening of a town centre cottage hospital in my constituency, which was closed several years ago, as a 24-hour, seven-days-a-week, walk-in GP treatment centre. That proposal is enormously popular in my constituency and people are very happy about it, but it is bound to have an impact on services elsewhere. But that is not cuts; it is meeting local patient need through the reopening of that hospital.”
“I am grateful to you for calling me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and may I also thank the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Derek Conway) for giving me this opportunity to make a contribution? I will be brief, and I will take your guidance. There are some who, in local papers and other local forums, are trying to portray what is happening as cuts, and I want to put the situation in context. Back in 1997, more than 14,000 people were waiting longer than 13 weeks for treatment in the four hospitals in the area; that figure is now down to 1,394. In 1997, 4,619 people were waiting more than 26 weeks for treatment; this July, that figure was down to just one—across the four hospital trusts. Between 2003 and 2008, Greenwich PCT had an increase of £133.4 million, and Bexley PCT one of £100 million.”
“It is a curious position of principle to suggest that because someone does not like the outcome of a democratic election, they will tinker with the process. As the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson) has left the Chamber during the debate, can my hon. Friend ask whether the Opposition spokesman will intervene and tell us whether he intends to vote with the Conservative Whip or not? The people of London would have been interested in the views of a mayoral candidate on this particular issue.”
“The hon. Gentleman has spoken with a great deal of common sense in this debate, although we were on opposite sides about the Mayor’s accountability for the budget. He has shown great attention to detail on the Bill, so will he tell the House whether he was overlooked as a candidate for Mayor or whether he was rejected in the selection process? Unfortunately, the Conservative party’s candidate for Mayor does not seem to have a view on anything in the Bill—”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. If an hon. Member is going to make a contribution in such a debate, should they not at least know what is under discussion?”