Clive Efford
MP for Eltham and Chislehurst · Labour · United Kingdom
“Thank you for allowing me to take part in this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that I was not here at the beginning—I was carrying out my duties elsewhere in the House. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. What is she likely to do in my part of south-east London for technical and vocational places?”
“I rise to speak to amendment 97 in my name, which would remove clause 10 from the Bill. Clause 10 gives powers to the Secretary of State to vary the proportion of public and private provision of health services if they consider that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”
“Labour’s 2024 plan to make work pay set out a welcome desire to bring more essential services back into public control—something that is welcomed by health workers across the country, because so far the “biggest wave of insourcing in a generation”, as was promised, has felt more like a trickle when it comes to the NHS.”
“The explanatory notes for the Bill say that this new flexibility is necessary “where there may otherwise be a breakdown in provision of a health service.” Can we imagine a situation where the Secretary of State has concerns about a health service and that an approach to assist a local provider would be rebuffed?”
“There are ample powers to enable the Secretary of State to intervene and resolve breakdowns in the provision of a health service. On clause 10, we must balance what it adds in those situations against its potential misuse by an ideologically driven Government that are determined to privatise our NHS.”
“It was a pleasure to join my right hon. Friend at Greenwich council’s development of 435 council properties in my constituency for the launch of the social and affordable housing programme. Some 70,000 homes are planned, and that is welcome and overdue.”
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“Q4. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, whatever the outcome of tomorrow’s votes on Sir Christopher Kelly’s review of Members’ allowances, one thing that the public have the right to expect is full disclosure of all outside influences, including income, who employs Members, who pays them, for how long and also—”
“Q9. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating my local authority, Greenwich council? It has frozen its council tax for the fifth time in the last 11 years; it has frozen most of its charges; it is providing free swimming for pensioners and under-16s; and it is providing funding so that pensioners and disabled people can use London transport at all times. Is that not an example of fairness and efficiency from Labour during these difficult times?”
“Can the hon. Gentleman reflect on this for a moment? We are about to have a meeting of G20 leaders in the UK, at the instigation of the Prime Minister, with an agenda to try to tackle globally the current downturn. Does the hon. Gentleman really think that the British people think that he has the gravitas to achieve that sort of meeting and the coming together of minds to try to deal with this? Does he really think that people would listen to him given the several positions that he has held on many major issues over the past 12 months?”
“The “Real help now” package that the Government have put in place shows their determination to help small businesses, but the banks remain stubbornly resistant to co-operating with what has been put in place. Businesses in my area describe interest rates being held stubbornly high or increased, bank charges being imposed without warning and a requirement for 100 per cent. security despite the fact that loans are covered by the guarantee scheme. Is it not time that we had an independent ombudsman or arbiter that businesses could go to when the banks are not carrying out what they should be doing on their behalf?”
“When can we have some time set aside to set up a Regional Select Committee for London? The Mayor has cut major infrastructure projects in London, the 50 per cent. target for affordable housing has been cut, and a £75 million revenue black hole has been created in the budget of Transport for London. London Members of Parliament want a voice on those issues and an opportunity to scrutinise the Mayor—or at least, Labour Members want that, even if the Liberals and the Tories do not. When can we set up a Committee for London?”
“Although I accept that the Government should always keep targets under review, does my right hon. Friend agree that it is utter nonsense to suggest that targets were at the heart of this problem, and that that is a reason for health professionals to neglect people who are in urgent clinical need? Does he think that replacing the word “targets” with the word “outcomes” would somehow alter the fact that we were measuring the performance in our NHS hospitals? Is it not right that we need to learn—”
“The hon. Gentleman has talked about what works and what does not work. Can he explain how cutting inheritance tax for the richest 3,000 people, at a time when we are in one of the deepest recessions in the last 100 years, will help ordinary families who are struggling to survive through this recession?”
“My hon. Friend will be aware that for a number of years, I have been urging the Department for Transport to work with Southeastern trains to ensure that the Oyster card is compatible with the reader machines on its network. It has promised that it will do that by the end of the year, but can I impress upon him the need to keep a tight rein on Southeastern trains to make sure that that change is implemented for the long-suffering commuters of south-east London?”
“May I echo the call of the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) for a debate on fairness in policing, because we now have a situation in London where if someone happens to be a friend or associate of Boris Johnson, the chairman of our Metropolitan Police Authority, they are likely to get a phone call from him to discuss private conversations he has had, in his capacity as chairman of the authority, with chief officers who are involved in important investigations? That is an unsatisfactory situation. The Mayor has been admonished this week by an inquiry into that question, and the MPA will now have to consider setting up protocols to control the behaviour of the Mayor of London. The matter is worthy of debate on the Floor of the House, so may we have such a debate in the near future?”
“I feel like I am intruding on private grief, but let us put the record straight. Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what he thinks the incentive would be for somebody who is not registered for tax purposes in the UK to fund a political party and seek to influence the outcome of elections? What would be the incentive for a political party to accept such a donation?”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that the figures that he just read out, welcome though they are, have been achieved in spite of some of the approaches taken by some of the top universities? Does he agree that they could do more to encourage young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, especially early in their education, perhaps as early as primary school or middle school age, to raise their aspirations so that they might be better qualified to apply to those universities when they reach school-leaving age?”
“May I add my appeal to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Slaughter), because there is widespread concern, including among my constituents, about the BBC’s decision not to show the Disasters Emergency Committee appeal on Gaza? People up and down the country are licence fee payers and, although I appreciate that the Government cannot tell the BBC what it should be doing, Back-Bench Members across this House want to express their views and would welcome an opportunity to do so on the Floor of the House.”
“The hon. Lady will appreciate that many people are concerned about the impact on climate change of the expansion of air transport anywhere. Can she explain to the House the difference between the impact of expanding flights at Heathrow and that of doing so elsewhere?”
“When I began to think about what I might say in the debate, I expected to see an Opposition motion setting out what, if anything, we should do about airport expansion and laying out the criteria by which the Opposition would measure whether they would introduce any airport expansion and where that might be, but we do not have that. What we have is a motion that is purely about the third runway at Heathrow. Many of my colleagues feel that, because of their constituency situation, they have to state their position in relation to Heathrow and support the early-day motion that has been presented as an Opposition motion today.”
“Almost all the people who contacted me about today’s debate believed that it was about climate change and the impact on it that airport expansion has, not just at Heathrow, but in general. However, we are talking about an early-day motion in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) that the Conservatives adopted to entice as many hon. Members as possible to follow them into the voting Lobby. The idea was that Members would feel duty-bound to do so because they signed that early-day motion, believing that that was the right thing to do. It is a mere device not just to bring the issue to the Floor of the House, as some people have suggested was the intention, but to use it as a political football.”
“If her position is that she would not introduce mixed mode given the chance, why did she not take the opportunity to refuse to introduce it? [Hon. Members: “She did.”] She did not. I challenge hon. Members to check Hansard. The hon. Lady said that she welcomed the commitment from the Secretary of State, but that she hoped he would stand by it in the future. I suggest that Conservative Members check Hansard.”
“I will come to that. We heard from the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) a refusal to give any commitment at all about where we might see expansion, how she might measure expansion if she were ever a Secretary of State for Transport in future, and what criteria she would use. None of those questions was answered. She spoke about expansion at Heathrow, and expansion alone. When my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) asked the hon. Lady about mixed mode, however, she welcomed the statement from the Secretary of State that there would be no mixed mode at Heathrow, but when pressed about whether she would approve mixed mode across London, she refused to give a commitment that a future Conservative Government would not introduce mixed mode.”
“In the absence of any policy— [Interruption.] I am sorry if they do not like it, but they are going to have to sit there and listen to it. In the absence of any policy—”
“I am sure that people are listening, but they will go back and check Hansard. The hon. Lady, who opened the debate, refused to give a commitment on the issue. Last October she was asked whether she would approve a second runway at Stansted. She made an unequivocal statement then that if BAA were to pursue that option, she would advise them not to do so because a future Conservative Government would stop it in its tracks. There was no mention of Stansted today. The motion says no to a third runway at Heathrow, but let us look at all the other options. Right across the south-east now, anyone who lives near an airport might have the Tories coming down their way to expand that airport. That is what the motion says.”
“No, I am sorry; I have given way twice. In the absence of any policy of their own, the Conservatives have adopted an EDM in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Selby. It has fixed them now with a policy of airport expansion, potentially right across the south-east. Let us look—”
“In conclusion, I hope that the Government are listening to what we on the Labour Benches are saying. There is great concern that past promises on Heathrow have not been adhered to. This issue is a major test of our commitment on climate change, and that means that the House, the Committee on Climate Change, the Civil Aviation Authority and the Environment Agency must have a role, to ensure that we deliver on the commitments that we have made.”
“That would be cheaper and would not require all the engineering that a high-speed rail link would need. It would allow us to create more capacity and improve timetables on the existing passenger network. We could deliver it much more cheaply and, in addition, take a great deal of freight off the road. Currently, 12 per cent. of our freight goes by rail; that represents a significant increase in the past 10 years, but if we could create more freight capacity the figure would rise further. One freight train is the equivalent of 50 heavy goods vehicles; an aggregate freight train is the equivalent of 120 HGVs. Building a dedicated freight line rather than going for a high-speed rail link, which would knock off only marginal amounts of time from journeys up and down the country, would make an enormous contribution to the environment.”
“Labour Members have questioned whether we are earnest in our commitments in relation to those measures. I believe that they should be brought back to the Floor of the House for debate so that people can question, amend and alter them if they need to be strengthened. That is an essential role that the House can play in future on the issue—an issue to which we will return, as others have said. I want to mention the high-speed rail link before I sit down. I do not believe that it will ever be built. I support it and want it, but according to the Conservatives’ own figures it would cost £17 billion to introduce. I have always felt that we could make much more efficient use of our resources by building a dedicated freight line and taking freight off our passenger rail network.”
“Much as I have misgivings about airport expansion, I will not join the Conservatives in the Lobby today. I turn to the position of the Government. Labour Members have made some reasonable requests today, most notably about the national policy statement. Heathrow is totemic in environmental terms, and it will be made so whether it is talked about in this bubble of the House of Commons or elsewhere. The matter should be brought back to the Floor of the House; let us have a vote on it in the near future. That would be a test of our commitment on climate change. We passed the Climate Change Bill, which is now an Act. There is the Committee on Climate Change, and we intend it to consider the measures that we have put in place for airport expansion. We are also going to give powers to the Civil Aviation Authority and the Environment Agency.”
“I have already given way twice and there are others who wish to speak. I am sorry if I have rattled the hon. Gentleman’s cage, but that is how it is. Let us have a look at what the Tories are saying where they are in power. Let us look at Mayor Boris and the island, for which my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford) made a powerful case. It does not represent the position of the Conservative party in the House. The Conservative party has got into a schism about airport expansion; it does not know whether to go one way or the other. The Mayor, who actually has power and influence, is pushing for a new airport in the Thames estuary. The Conservative party does not know which way to go on any airport—all it knows is that it does not want Heathrow to expand.”
“While my constituents are concerned about the fare increases that they face, Southeastern Trains has also announced a number of job losses. When I arrive at the station each day to catch my train, the barriers are invariably open. People are worried about money being frittered away as a result of a lack of enforcement in the rail service. I mentioned the problem to Southeastern Trains, but the situation has not improved since I did so. We need to ensure that train operating companies are operating efficiently, and that job losses do not result in a reduction in service.”
“The Government have set environmental targets that must be met before expansion at Heathrow can go ahead. Does my right hon. Friend agree that those targets must be independently assessed, enforceable and legally binding if we are to restore public confidence?”
“While I welcome what my right hon. Friend is attempting to achieve today, many small businesses are finding it extremely difficult to obtain credit when banks are refusing it or taking too long to make decisions over requests from businesses, particularly in my constituency. When my right hon. Friend next discusses these issues with the banks, I urge him to investigate exactly what arrangements they are putting in place to liaise with small businesses, to understand what such businesses need and to make speedier decisions to allow them either to keep their staff or avoid going under completely?”
“Residents of south-east London will welcome the decision not to proceed with mixed mode, but they and everyone else will also be concerned about the impact of my right hon. Friend’s proposals on climate change. Can he clarify the role that the Climate Change Committee will play in overseeing the environmental measures that he has announced? Will it merely comment on those measures, or will it have to assess the likelihood of their success in achieving the goals that he has set out before any approvals are given? If my right hon. Friend cannot clarify that, people will lose confidence in the committee, and in all that he has announced today about the environment and the third runway.”
“Many of us have constituents who work for Woolworths. Will the Department for Work and Pensions issue a statement in the near future that gives advice about where those people can go for assistance if they need it, particularly in relation to some of the measures that the Government have recently introduced to help people through these difficult times during the economic downturn? May we have a statement to provide at least some respite to those who have had the worst possible news this side of Christmas?”
“Will the Secretary of State assure the House that, where such a culture exists in his Department, it will be changed?”
“Further to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton), will the Secretary of State tell us what will be done to change the culture among some of the people in his Department? A constituent of mine, a bricklayer, suffered a hernia and had to undergo an operation. He contracted an infection and, while he was waiting for his fourth operation, he was told that he had not scored enough points on his incapacity benefit form. He had an open wound in his stomach, yet he was told that he was fit for work and that he should go on to jobseeker’s allowance. That decision was callous and wrong, and it was not overturned on appeal. If we are going to deal with such people in the way that my hon. Friend has suggested, we need to deal with them as people and not through forms and box ticking.”
“How does my right hon. Friend feel he should have been judged if, when he was at the Home Office and effectively the police authority for London, he had rung someone who was part of an ongoing inquiry by the police to discuss their case? Would that have been a matter of misconduct, and would it have been a resigning issue?”
“I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way, although usually Members resume their seat when another Member speaks—he has been here long enough to know that. [Hon. Members: “Get on with it.”] Excuse me. If the principles that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just applied to the leaking of information had applied when Sarah Tisdall and Clive Ponting were prosecuted, does he believe that those prosecutions would have gone ahead?”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that the position that she has been invited to adopt is that civil servants should be allowed to treat her Department as an Aladdin’s cave of secrets that they should be free to leak, and that civil servants’ judgment alone will determine what is in the public domain and what is not? Did the level at which these leaks came from her Department suggest to her that the person who leaked may have had access to information relating to national security? Can we be sure that all the leaks—”
“The right hon. Gentleman has made a great deal of the control of information and how people should handle information. Will he tell us when it is appropriate for the chair of the Metropolitan Police Authority to ring someone who is under investigation by the Metropolitan police?”
“Can my hon. Friend give me an assurance that where we encourage parents to look for work under the new regime, in which the age for single parent benefit has been reduced, the system will be one not of coercion, but of encouragement? Will she also look into the types of work that people are encouraged to go into, to ensure that the jobs that they are offered are sustainable?”
“I welcome the business payment support service that my right hon. Friend is setting up. I spoke to the director of my chamber of commerce today, and he suggested something similar to this measure, by allowing the quarterly payments for VAT and corporation tax to be paid in monthly instalments. I urge my right hon. Friend to ensure that the service is an early intervention service so that small businesses do not incur huge bank charges and that they get the support to which he alluded. In addition, does it cause him any distress at all that the Conservative party changes its policy from week to week?”
“I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the leadership that he has shown in trying to deal with this worldwide economic crisis. Will he tell the House whether anyone was prepared to argue the case for deregulation at the G20 summit? Is there anybody of any note, other than the Opposition, who is arguing that line?”
“Will my right hon. Friend confirm that this contract does not start until 2010 and that those people who are accusing him of having delayed the decision need to understand the process in which we have been involved? It is imperative that Government agencies and local government direct services through the post offices if they are to be sustainable in the future. Can my right hon. Friend say whether today’s announcement means that there is a moratorium on planned closures? Will any sub-post office managers who want their post offices to remain open get an opportunity to restate their case? Many communities could benefit from the future arrangements for the Post Office that my right hon. Friend envisages if those post offices remained open.”
“Q7. Can my right hon. and learned Friend give an assurance that the money that has been invested in the banks will not be at the expense of investment in public services? People such as pensioners, parents with children in schools, patients of the NHS and public sector workers will be concerned that the money that we have invested to rescue the country from the excesses of the masters of the universe must not come at the expense of those services. Can she give that assurance?”
“I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the prompt action that he took following the collapse of Northern Rock, in passing the Banking (Special Provisions) Act 2008. That gave him the powers that have enabled him to introduce this rescue package for the banks. I wonder what has given him the greatest sense of relief: the fact that the House passed that legislation in the face of opposition from the Conservatives, or the respect and support that he has received from the Leader of the Opposition and his shadow Chancellor.”
“Q4. Does my right hon. Friend agree that people who cannot afford to buy houses should not pay the price for the current economic turmoil and the tightening of credit in the housing market? His announcement today that hard-pressed families will be helped to get on to the housing ladder is welcome, but does he agree that we must encourage local authorities and housing associations to do more to make affordable houses available for rent?”
“Will my right hon. Friend consider providing more flexibility in the home curfew system when people are offered employment? A young constituent of mine has been prevented from being considered for home curfew because he is not due for release until next March. However, he has been offered a job, and his family are willing to support him. The provision of more flexibility would enable us to free up spaces in institutions while also giving people an opportunity to turn their lives around.”
“Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that violent crime involving young people in London is one of the most important issues that confronts the capital? London MPs are contacting the Home Secretary, asking her to take the initiative and bring communities across London together, including young people, to discuss ways of solving this problem. They are doing that because of the woefully inadequate response of the Mayor of London. He was elected on a campaign that highlighted 23 deaths last year—what looked like a slick campaign now looks like a very sick campaign. As a fellow London MP, will my right hon. and learned Friend contact the Home Secretary, to bring together communities across London to find a solution to this very important problem?”
“It is only this Government who are protecting the NHS and only a national framework that will do so.”
“I welcome the statement and the fact that my right hon. Friend has reiterated that future Secretaries of State will remain responsible for the framework and accountable for the future of the NHS. The Opposition seem to want to do away with national targets, but can he explain how we could set a national framework without targets? Does he ever envisage a day when a Secretary of State will come to the Dispatch Box and say, “It’s not my fault, mate: it’s all the local people taking decisions.”? What is being proposed is a free-for-all in the NHS, which is where we were in 1997, when we had an internal market that did not provide a consistent service across the country, and passports that would have taken money out of the NHS to subsidise the private sector.”
“Exactly what would a Conservative Government do for the NHS, and who would be responsible for what?”
“This is an area where the Tories have created more than a bit of confusion for me. Heaven forbid that we should ever have a Conservative in charge of the NHS again, but exactly what would a future Conservative Government be responsible for? Three issues have been raised—Chase Farm hospital, which was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Joan Ryan), and two others, which were raised by Labour Back Benchers—on which local decisions were made to change the NHS to try to improve it and make it ready for the 21st century, but the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has prayed them in aid to attack the Government. There is localism and decisions are being made, but the hon. Gentleman brings them here to attack the Government.”
“I accept that there is some cross-fertilisation of ideas about the future of the NHS. However, on commissioning, the right hon. Gentleman needs to explain how the choice in the manifesto on which he stood to allow patients to opt out of the NHS fits into the framework that he describes.”