Clive Efford
MP for Eltham and Chislehurst · Labour · United Kingdom
“Thank you for allowing me to take part in this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that I was not here at the beginning—I was carrying out my duties elsewhere in the House. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. What is she likely to do in my part of south-east London for technical and vocational places?”
“I rise to speak to amendment 97 in my name, which would remove clause 10 from the Bill. Clause 10 gives powers to the Secretary of State to vary the proportion of public and private provision of health services if they consider that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”
“Labour’s 2024 plan to make work pay set out a welcome desire to bring more essential services back into public control—something that is welcomed by health workers across the country, because so far the “biggest wave of insourcing in a generation”, as was promised, has felt more like a trickle when it comes to the NHS.”
“The explanatory notes for the Bill say that this new flexibility is necessary “where there may otherwise be a breakdown in provision of a health service.” Can we imagine a situation where the Secretary of State has concerns about a health service and that an approach to assist a local provider would be rebuffed?”
“There are ample powers to enable the Secretary of State to intervene and resolve breakdowns in the provision of a health service. On clause 10, we must balance what it adds in those situations against its potential misuse by an ideologically driven Government that are determined to privatise our NHS.”
“It was a pleasure to join my right hon. Friend at Greenwich council’s development of 435 council properties in my constituency for the launch of the social and affordable housing programme. Some 70,000 homes are planned, and that is welcome and overdue.”
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“We need to talk to carers, parents and the health service—health visitors and such people—to ensure that everyone understands that developing core physical literacy from day one is important. From an early age, if children feel inadequate, they may start to use avoidance tactics, so that they do not get into a situation in which they feel challenged, and we see that behaviour in relation to physical activity. It is therefore important that we encourage everyone to instil the idea of physical activity in the right way, and that we develop physical literacy and core physical strength in children from the earliest age. I support the primary premium money, so that children, in particular at key stage 2, get the broadest experience of as vast a range of sports as we can achieve at that stage of their education.”
“We must not have teachers feeling that they have somehow abdicated responsibility for teaching PE because that money is going into our primary schools. It is important for PE to be part of the curriculum, and I support the Select Committee recommendation that teacher training be altered to cover that. We also want co-ordinators for PE in every primary school, as we have for maths and literacy, so that it has similar status, and so that someone takes responsibility for ensuring not only that a decent amount of PE is taught—we would restore the two-hour minimum requirement—but that it is taught at a decent standard. On physical literacy, we need to get it right from day one, which means starting when children are at pre-school.”
“I assume that that means that there is a difference of opinion with the Prime Minister, who was being critical when he said that the “two hours that is laid down is often met through sort of Indian dancing classes.” I assume that that policy is no longer being followed. I will conclude, because I want to give the Minister a fair go at coming back at me. I think that I have been going for nearly 20 minutes, Sir Alan—the speech timer seems to have stopped. What do we want in the future? What are we looking for? I welcome the point about core physical literacy and the investment in primary schools. Investment in specialist teaching in primary schools is not to replace PE, but in addition to it.”
“Rolling up all the money to £2.5 billion makes the programme sound very expensive. It was actually £162 million a year, and this Government have put £150 million into the primary school sports premium. I do accept, however, that school sport partnerships did not work so well in some areas, but that does not justify getting rid of the whole scheme. They were a good foundation on which we should have been building. I must start to draw my comments to a close. In the Government’s response to the Education Committee’s point about competitive sport, I notice that they mention dance as an activity that they want to be encouraged in schools.”
“This is just a cynical ploy to get beyond the humiliating defeat that the Government face in the House of Lords. Notwithstanding what has been said by the Minister’s hon. Friends, no decision has been made to introduce plain packaging. Who does she think will win this war of attrition for the ear of the Prime Minister: Lynton Crosby, or both Houses of Parliament?”
“May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to explain why the Government have refused to designate the rugby union world cup in 2015 as an event of national significance, as was done by the previous Government for the Olympics and Paralympics in 2012, so that tickets cannot be sold on the secondary ticketing market and hoovered up by touts, many of whom are involved in organised criminal gangs and in exploiting genuine rugby fans?”
“I echo what the hon. Gentleman is saying. In that spirit, does he agree that we should take this legislative opportunity to adopt the amendments on the horseracing levy?”
“I understand its point about the anomaly of someone being able to gamble on a hand-held device outside a casino but unable to do so perhaps only a few paces away inside the building. I have looked at some of the websites and seen the sums of prize money increasing at an alarming rate. Sometimes, total prizes of £8 million are advertised. The proposed change for casinos would therefore represent a very big step. If there is a case for such a change, we should consider it in more detail.”
“Notwithstanding the views of the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), the new clauses and amendments have allowed us to have a wide-ranging debate on gambling, and to explore concerns about this area of regulation. That is only fit and proper. The hon. Gentleman’s amendment 1 is a sensible proposition; I have no objection to his proposal for a report that would give us an opportunity to keep an eye on what was going on. We often pass legislation that simply drifts off into the ether and seldom comes back to us, and we rarely have the chance to see how our work is functioning out there. I therefore welcome his sensible suggestion. Sadly, I cannot say the same about new clause 1. I will listen carefully to what the Minister says about it, and I entirely respect the views of the Select Committee.”
“Having looked at these websites, I think that we need to consider the matter further and that it would not be appropriate to take this step in this Bill.”
“I have seen that document. I agree with my hon. Friend: the UK gambling industry is highly regulated and highly regarded. I have a great deal of respect for the way in which it conducts its affairs, and I would not suggest for a minute that it would not deal with this new area of the market in a responsible way, were the new clause to be accepted. The proposal does, however, represent a major step forward, because unlimited prizes would be offered on machines—albeit remote gambling machines—inside casinos. We have regulated on that cautiously in the past. If we are to take that step, it would need consideration in separate legislation or a change in the licensing rules, whichever is required.”
“It is not the insignificant number it may seem when we say 0.9%—we see that when we talk in terms of 700 people per constituency.”
“It would have to be policed, would it not? Like anything else that is happening on the internet, it would have to be policed. The ultimate argument the hon. Gentleman is making is: what is the point in regulating at all? I think we are getting to the root of his position on all these issues. On research and treatment, the figure of 0.9% has been used a lot. The 2010 gambling prevalence survey identified that for problem gambling in respect of online slots the figure rises to 9%—we are dealing with online gambling here, so we are talking about almost one in 10 and something that is very serious. The overall figure of 0.9% equates to 450,000 people and we should take note of that, because it equates to 700 people per constituency.”
“The Minister has an opportunity in the legislation to take reserve powers away, to consult on what would be a long-term acceptable method of raising the horserace betting levy into the future and to come back to the House with her conclusions. It would be the waste of an opportunity not to do that at this time. If she is not minded to set such a timetable for the betting levy, we will put this new clause to the vote. I hear what the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said about his amendment on self-exclusion and I know that he intends to put it to the vote. If he does, I will urge my hon. Friends to support his amendment as well.”
“Rather than saying to the Minister here and now that we can pass a system under this Bill that would require everyone to pay the betting levy long into the future, we are suggesting in new clause 11 that there is all-party agreement on the betting levy and that we all accept the principle of it. In fact, several of her hon. Friends have attempted to take a private Member’s Bill through on this specific issue. As we have said before, this is a rare opportunity to legislate in this area, and another such opportunity may be many moons away. In the meantime, the horse racing industry is missing out on vital income.”
“Other countries use financial blocking and, taking on board the comments of the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), we ask that none of our standards fall below those of other white list countries. Finally, the horserace betting levy is an extremely important element that we have debated during the passage of the Bill. The horserace betting industry suggests that racing is missing out on £20 million a year that could be made if online remote betting companies were contributing to the betting levy. New clause 10 redefines the definition of a bookmaker in the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 to bring those remote gambling companies into line with the onshore companies that currently pay the levy.”
“That money should be put to use for good causes, such as treatment. I know that an element of it is used in that way, but we do not know how much. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Shipley, who is trying to intervene from a sedentary position, were to look at the report written by the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster), he would see how difficult it is to identify how much money there is in those accounts. This is an opportunity for us to deal with that. We are recommending financial blocking because it should be part of an overall package of measures that the Gambling Commission needs to have at its disposal. Much has been made of the Ofcom report, which concluded that financial blocking, as part of an overall basket of measures, could be an effective means of intervention, and we would certainly recommend that it should be so.”
“On self-exclusion, the Minister failed to convince us in Committee that she was going to be robust enough in ensuring that we will deliver a one-stop shop—a single exclusion system right across the gambling industry regulated by the Gambling Commission. We reached a point where I kept asking the same question and I got several evasive answers, so I put my simple question to her again: will she require the Gambling Commission to introduce a single, one-stop shop self-exclusion system across the gambling industry? That is what we are pushing her to do. When we talk about dormant accounts, we are also talking about bets that are void because the horse did not run, about unclaimed winnings and about the accounts of people who have left money sitting in them for more than a year.”
“My hon. Friend is right about that. Of course, a significant duty is levied on alcohol and tobacco, which does contribute towards providing public services, for just the reason he outlines. He rightly says that just about £5.7 million is spent on treatment and research, but the overall value of the gambling industry is about £6 billion. The online gambling industry is worth about £2 billion, so it is not unreasonable to expect that more could be contributed towards the treatment of problem gambling in the future. I am getting a little bogged down, so I will try to move quickly through my amendments.”
“I want to clarify what the Minister has just said about the FCA and what is being confirmed. She said, I think, that the FCA was confirming the current arrangements, which are far from satisfactory. Will it adopt all the requirements of licence condition 15.1?”
“I am grateful to the Minister, who is being very generous in giving way as I know she has a lot to get through. The issue is that although it is easy to self-exclude from, for example, four betting shops on the high street, there are a multiplicity of ways of gambling on the internet without a single system of self-exclusion—that is, a one-stop shop. Is that the minimum standard that she will require?”
“There is agreement among Members on both sides of the House about this, and many Government Back Benchers have supported a private Member’s Bill that would have a similar effect. We are suggesting not that we solve the problem now but that she takes a reserve power and comes back to the House. In the meantime, we should allow the levy to be applied to remote gambling operators, because in the intervening period the horse racing industry is missing out on £20 million per year. When will she regulate if not now?”
“It has taken some time for us to get to the point where we have the legislation before us, but we are here now and the Bill, as far as it goes, has support from all parts of the House, because we want to set the very highest standards here in the UK, which others will follow across the world in the regulation of remote and online gambling. We certainly want the Gambling Commission to set the very highest standards so that people can enjoy the pastime of gambling in safety and in the knowledge that everything is being done to ensure that they can do so without fear of any harm. We commend the Bill and hope sincerely that everything required by it will be realised under the licensing regime applied by the Gambling Commission.”
“We will have to remain vigilant and see how that is implemented to ensure that the Bill has the desired effect, as expressed by Members in all parts of the House. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) for the work that he initiated in government. Shortly after the remote gambling regulations were put in place in 2007, he and the present Comptroller of Her Majesty’s Household, the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster), who is not in his place and to whom I pay tribute, identified the need for further regulation.”
“In spite of all the amendments that we tabled, we welcome the Bill, as far as it goes. It brings an industry that has grown to £2 billion a year under the UK Gambling Commission as the licensing authority and, in respect of licensing, it will create a level playing field between remote gambling operators, those that have remained onshore and our high street betting shops. The questions that we have raised will be tested by how well the Gambling Commission enforces the requirements that are laid out in the Bill and implicit in the licence. Aspects such as research, treatment, the protection or self-exclusion of individuals, enforcement tools using IP blocking, financial blocking, and possible change to the watershed will all be subject to enforcement by the Gambling Commission.”
“If we can achieve that, we will have achieved something that is worthy of those whom we aim to remember.”
“Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), and what he has done to bring us to this point. I also pay tribute to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, to the Imperial War Museum, to the BBC for what it has planned over the next four years, and to all the countries of the Commonwealth that will be doing so much to help us to mark this important event in our collective history. Forty-one million British people lived through the first world war while what was described as the flower of British youth went off to fight. Nine million soldiers lost their lives and 16 million people died overall. For them, we must be a nation at our best when commemorating these events. We must lay the foundations for future generations to go on learning the lessons of just how devastating war can be.”
“When this Chamber suffered a direct hit from a German bomb during the second world war, Winston Churchill instructed that some of the rubble from the bomb damage be incorporated in the renovated Chamber of the House of Commons to remind us not only of the fortitude of those who fought in that war but the damage and harm that was inevitably caused by wars. So this Chamber itself, in a way, has a form of remembrance. That is a reminder that we, as politicians, must exhaust every political and diplomatic avenue before we ever consider sending our armed forces into harm’s way. War is a breakdown of the political process and, as such, can only be the last resort in any conflict. It has been an honour to take part in this debate. In particular, I pay tribute to the work of the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon.”
“Whether it is the brotherhood of those diverse cultures or the symbolic events that took place in no man’s land at Christmas 1914, there is more in human nature that binds us than divides us. When Harry Patch sadly passed away in 2009, we lost one of the last direct connections with the British soldiers who fought so bravely in that war. Our generation will be the last to have had direct contact with these soldiers. We must therefore reflect on how the 150th anniversary might be remembered.”
“In fact, the people who attend nowadays represent the diversity of the armed forces who took part in the first world war more than they ever have in previous years. It is a real community event with everyone coming together. More recently, we have been happy to welcome a large contingent of the Gurkha community, and it is a pleasure to see how their presence is warmly welcomed by the entire community. British Future’s publication about the first world war refers to “the graves…of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus lying side by side, just as” they “had fought side by side”. It is often at these times in the field of human conflict that humanity shows its greatest attributes.”
“Members for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) and for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), and the hon. Members for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), for Stone (Mr Cash), for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), and for Burton (Andrew Griffiths). All I can say is that it is an honour to have taken part in this debate with them. How we should approach this commemoration is symbolised by Harry Patch’s insistence that German and British veterans should carry his coffin. For the past 20 years, long before I became a Member of Parliament, I have been attending the remembrance service in Eltham. Over the years, it has become a much more diverse affair.”
“This has been a very fitting and moving debate. I always feel that the House is at its best on such occasions. I cannot, in the time available, do credit to all the speeches. We heard from the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson), my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the hon.”
“Four years and four Ministers later, we have finally got the Bill, so what was all the waiting about?”
“The consequence has been that these operators are outside UK regulation, which is one of the reasons why we are here debating this Bill today. In 2009, my hon. Friend ordered a review of overseas gambling operators who advertised in the UK. In 2010, we began the consultation on extending Gambling Commission licensing to include online gambling operators offering services in the UK. Consultation responses were published after the general election in July of that year by the then Minister with responsibility for gambling, the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), whom I see in his place. It was then a full year before he issued a written statement on the Government’s plans to legislate. The draft Bill was published in December 2012, and the Select Committee published its report on the draft Bill in May 2013.”
“I start by welcoming the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), to her new post, which I neglected to do under pressure of time at questions last week. I look forward to debating with her over the coming years. [Interruption.] Well, she may well keep her position in opposition. The Bill has been a long time coming. The need for changes in the licensing of remote gambling operators was first identified by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) when he was Minister for Sport. Online gambling was first regulated in the UK in 2007. Since that time, in order to avoid taxation, all but one of our major online betting companies has moved offshore and they justified that by claiming that that is necessary to remain competitive.”
“Does it deal with the anomaly of spread betting being regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority? Does it require every operator taking bets on horse racing from UK-based customers to contribute to a horse race betting levy? Does it require the betting industry to make some contribution to all sports from which it profits yet to which it makes no contribution? Does it deal with the issue of dormant accounts, on which the Government promised to legislate? This Bill deals with matters that have been under consideration for four years and on which there is pretty much unanimous agreement, so it is difficult to understand why we have had to wait so long, when the Bill is so limited in what it seeks to achieve.”
“Does it set out detailed methods for enforcing compliance with new powers for the Gambling Commission? Does it require all licensed operators to display a kitemark to inform consumers that they are using a UK licensed online operator? Does it introduce a whole new set of penalties for operators who fail to report suspicious activities? Does it deal with betting advertising before the 9 pm watershed? Does it include requirements on operators to contribute to research on, and treatment of, gambling behaviour and problem gambling? Does the Bill define what a betting shop should provide before it can advertise as such? Does it deal with unmanned betting shops providing self-service betting terminals? Does it create the framework for a single form of self-exclusion across the industry for those who need help with their gambling addiction?”
“As I said, the regulations on online gambling were introduced in 2007 and the issues relating to online gambling were identified in 2009 by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South, who then began the process of dealing with the situation, and nothing was held up at all by casino gambling. We now have before us a five-clause Bill that deals with the licensing of remote gambling operators at the point of consumption. That is not contentious. Virtually everyone, including large parts of the gambling industry, is in favour of that. The delay in bringing the Bill forward could be understood if it addressed many of the issues that have come to light since 2007. For instance, does the Bill include clauses to introduce financial penalties for companies that breach licensing codes?”
“My point is that if the Bill addressed those issues, we could understand the delay, but it does not. It deals only with something we all agreed with nearly four years ago. I am highlighting a number of issues about which people who monitor the gambling industry are concerned. It is perfectly legitimate for the House to raise and debate those issues, particularly when we are intending to legislate in a very important area of gambling activity.”
“We want to say that we welcome the Bill and that we particularly welcome the adoption of Labour’s policy of regulating online gambling, but we are disappointed, given the time that the Government have had to consider these issues, that a number of them have not been included in the Bill.”
“The hon. Gentleman will know that the chief executive of the Gambling Commission said in the evidence she gave to the Select Committee on which he sits that there was very little reporting of illegal gambling activity from 80% of the market that was unlicensed—a point for which I shall return. The gambling prevalence survey, which last took place in 2010, has been abolished, so we have very little empirical evidence on which to base our views. What we do know, however, is that people have raised entirely legitimate concerns and we should address them in our consideration of legislation. We could understand the delay if we had had a full legislative timetable from the Government, but we have not, so why have we waited so long?”
“Let me explain to Government Members that the Gambling Act 2005 was a major piece of legislation that has largely stood the test of time. When the legislation was put in place, the then Government said that the issues in the Bill would be kept under review. A number of areas have subsequently come to light, such as online gambling, which has grown exponentially over the last few years, that present some challenges to Government, in respect of which regulation might be necessary.”
“The online industry has grown to be worth more than £2 billion a year in a relatively short time, and with that has come a relative increase in the capacity of online gamblers with an addiction to lose money before anyone becomes aware of their problem. Unlike codes of conduct in other jurisdictions, the Bill contains no requirement for licensed operators to monitor the behaviour of their customers and intervene if they think there is a problem.”
“However, when we consider legislation on matters of this kind, we tread a difficult path between our wish to promote an industry from which people gain a great deal of pleasure and our responsibility to protect the vulnerable. Online gambling is of particular concern because of its very nature. It is possible for vulnerable adults to indulge their addiction without leaving their homes, and hence to suffer alone while running up debts that they cannot hope to pay. It is our duty as legislators to create a safe and well-regulated environment in which people can enjoy the pleasure that they experience from gambling.”
“I am grateful for the benefit of my hon. Friend’s knowledge of this issue. As he says, the Bill has been a long time coming. The Department has few opportunities to find time on the legislative calendar, and we should not waste this opportunity to explore all the aspects of online gambling that may need to be addressed. Gambling is enjoyed by more than 56% of the population, and the figure rises to more than 70% if the purchase of lottery tickets is included. Obviously we welcome the move to create a level playing field between operators who have remained onshore and those who have moved offshore, have based themselves offshore, or have recently entered the market and wish to trade with United Kingdom customers.”
“There is new technology designed to identify people who may have problems, but there has been no indication from the Government that they intend to use it to protect vulnerable consumers.”
“I think that we shall be seeking assurances from the Government on the issue of consumer protection. We shall want to see exactly where the lines will be drawn, and where the Government feel that action should be taken if any form of illegal activity is taking place or there is no protection for vulnerable people. Online gambling is an important issue of public concern, and we are entitled to know how the Government intend to monitor it. The Bill does not specify a point at which operators would be required to intervene, and to discuss directly with their customers whether there is a problem. Some people have expressed concern about the fact that we have a weaker regulatory framework than that which operates under the regulators in white-listed countries such as Alderney and Gibraltar.”
“The Minister must explain what benchmarks the Government will set themselves, according to which we can hold them to account. It has taken so long for them to present the Bill that we cannot pass up the opportunity to secure from them clear guidelines explaining how they expect the market and the regulators to deal with these important issues.”
“Ms Williams suggested it was implausible there were so few suspicious transactions.” In that context, the Bill is a giant leap in the dark. What will be the demand on the commission’s resources? No one can say for certain what the scale of the problem may be. The Government have allowed themselves scope to regulate in the future, but given their reluctance so far to act to protect the consumer, we must insist on some indication from them of what they are prepared to tolerate before they will take such action. What will be their response if the commission says that it cannot cope with money from licence fees alone, and asks for extra resources? What if it needs extra powers with which to tackle the problems presented by the opening of our market to companies that are currently excluded?”
“Can the Minister assure us, given the amount of concern about the issue, that she will consider reviewing that aspect of advertising regulation? Although it is welcome that every gambling operator who advertises in the United Kingdom will be required to be licensed by the Gambling Commission, the Bill will open up the market to operators outside the European economic area and the white list. In her evidence to the Select Committee Jenny Williams, chief executive of the commission, said that “the Gambling Commission received one or two reports per month from its online gambling licensees, who handled…20% of the market, but from the 80% licensed overseas the Commission had received a total of about ten since 2007.”