Matthew Pennycook
MP for Greenwich and Woolwich · Labour · United Kingdom
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Dame Siobhain. I congratulate the right hon. and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Sir Jeremy Wright) on securing this debate.”
“I will address the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s specific question in due course. Before I do so, I want to put on the record the policy in relation to villages. He can rest assured that I will address the point; if he is unsatisfied, he is more than welcome to intervene again. A number of hon. Members mentioned villages.”
“I will say two things in respect to that, and I will come on to detail how the approach works in relation to decision making very shortly. In general terms, developers can make whatever claims they like about any particular site across the country; it is for the local authority to assess whether, in its view, that site constitutes grey be…”
“and learned Gentleman’s point about what is likely to constitute grey-belt land. Let me directly address his other two specific points. Is this a significant policy? Absolutely, and it has been judged as much by the Office for Budget Responsibility and other external commentators. Is it deliberate? Absolutely. We want, as the right hon.”
“Where authorities may wish to restrict development in villages for other reasons, a range of tools are available, such as conservation areas or normal development management policies. On the right hon.”
“We have to put in place policies that, through the decision-making route, allow homes still to be brought forward in that interregnum, but then we have to push heavily to drive towards universal plan coverage. At that point, the protections are in place.”
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“I recognise that there is a wider supply question about the housing market in Scotland more generally, but what did your research suggest was the impact of the rent control measures that were introduced in Scotland? Anna Evans: I will take the rent control issue first. This was nothing to do with private residential tenancy; it was the result of emergency legislation on the cost of living, which was brought in in 2021-22. That brought in a rent increase freeze and then rent increase caps. If we look at the data following that on rent increases, there are arguments around this, but basically average rent increases have not frozen or been curtailed. Some would certainly argue that rent increases in Scotland have been greater than what you could see across the UK.”
“Q So I think it would be worth teasing something out, because it was an interesting report. To touch on what you just said, I took from the report that the tenancy reform in Scotland seven years ago had a number of benefits for tenants, but it has not adversely affected landlords. As you say, the system has bedded in and they have adapted to it. The shadow Minister said that this is largely the same set of reforms that happened in Scotland, so could I encourage you to touch on any differences between the approach we are taking in this Bill and the Scottish experience? Could you then perhaps touch a bit more on the specific impact of the rent control measures in Scotland—which we are not proposing—on that supply issue?”
“There is still a good proportion of assured tenancies in existence—we estimate probably about 20%. Short assured tenancies are certainly less secure, so one lesson would be that if you are changing, do not do it over seven years; do not delay.”
“Yes, that is very useful. Thank you. Anna Evans: In terms of the differences between your Bill and the private residential tenancy, I have to confess that I am not an expert on your Bill, so I cannot answer that in detail, but I can say that the PRT is an open-ended tenancy. It has no fixed-term period. There is the eradication of eviction with no grounds. Eviction proceedings are simplified to 18 statutory grounds and there has to be a reason—what are the grounds for eviction? There are extended notice periods and also a phased implementation. I think that is a key point. A lesson that the current Housing (Scotland) Bill is looking at is whether short assured and assured tenancies should actually just be terminated now because there has been long enough.”
“We have suggested that if you could say to students that they could cancel that agreement up to four months before the tenancy was due to begin, it would stop early renting. There would be nothing in it for landlords to try to get properties signed earlier and earlier, because students would be able to drop out. We do not think that would be problematic. It will not be an issue for landlords as the properties will still be let, but hopefully it would stop the silliness.”
“The second part of your question was about cooling-off periods and early renting. Why does it happen? I think it is a mixture of things. Students want to secure a nice house, so they go out early and try to beat the rest of the market. In some cities, there are shortages of accommodation because student numbers have increased considerably over recent years, and there is a cap on the amount of off-street housing that there can be because of planning—article 4 direction—so we are not making any more shared student housing. Students are aware that there is a shortage, and if they want to get the house that they want, they will try to get out there earlier and earlier to beat the market. That is why it happens, but it is really problematic, so we would like it to not happen.”
“I think that is likely, because if you are in a one or two-bedroom property and you can have an indeterminate tenancy and give notice at any point, you may give notice in January when there is no demand for students, and that property will end up leaving the cycle of the student market and going into the professional market. The average is 31% across the Accommodation for Students website, but in some locations it is even higher. In Newcastle and Preston, over 50% of the properties advertised are one and two beds, so it is not just mature students; it is younger undergraduates who are living in those types of houses because they suit their needs and they are available. Losing them would be very problematic over time and would reduce the supply of housing available to students.”
“Generally, they are in that city and living in that housing only because they are at a university nearby. We think that excluding one and two-bedroom properties is problematic, because they are quite a big part of the market—more than you would think; it is not just mature students or students with families. A national advertising platform called Accommodation for Students has given us some data on this, and 31% of the properties listed on its website nationally are one and two-bedroom off-street houses. If you were to lose that amount of property from the student market, that would be problematic.”
“That is definitely a helpful addition and we were glad to see it brought forward. However, at the moment it is just for HMOs, which we assume is deliberate wording, so it is for properties with larger groups of three or more people living in them, and you have excluded one and two-bedroom properties. We think that will result in a loss of smaller properties from the student housing sector. The sector is quite particular. These properties have been set up close to universities, and the businesses are run in a particular way. I can understand why you might think that one and two-bedroom properties would perhaps have more mature students or students with families living in them. Often they do, but the reason why all students rent all properties in the student market is to do with them being at university.”
“If we were looking to take action on sign-ups in advance, what is a reasonable period when landlords should be able to ask students to sign up in advance that does not, as you say, force them all to sign up far too early and in ways they may regret or have to re-examine? What is an appropriate period in which a sign-up would be reasonable? Lastly, do you understand why the sign-up arms race, as I might put it, has developed? It is hard to find an explanation for why all landlords are locked into a cycle of earlier and earlier sign-ups; it seems to have developed organically. Could you outline why you think that problem has arisen in the first place? Victoria Tolmie-Loverseed: To take the first point, in the Bill you have proposed ground 4A for possession of student tenancies.”
“Q I would argue that we are giving students special treatment. To be entirely candid, I took some time to come to a view on what we should do in this area. We want students to benefit from the new system, but it has unique characteristics and we want to protect the supply of student accommodation. I do not know whether you are familiar with the previous Government’s Bill, but we have narrowed the grounds for possession in an attempt to capture a typical student and not a non-typical student—say, an adult learner with children who is living in a more non-typical student property. Do you think we have that right? Are there any ways in which you would tweak it?”
“If you say, “Your tenant is able to give notice, and they might choose to leave in April or May,” those landlords will respond to that and think, “I will have to increase my rent, because I have an annual rental figure that I need.””
“No-fault evictions are very rarely, if ever, used in the student housing market, because the need is cyclical, and generally most students will very happily move out when their tenancy is finished. I think it would be used very rarely, but it sends a useful signal that it is time to think about leaving. The real issue for me, and the more problematic thing that will stop the cyclical nature of student housing, is the ability of students to give two months’ notice. I understand not wanting to treat students differently from the rest of the market, but the need for housing is so tied to the particular reason of being at university. Most landlords deal with their tenancies on the basis of 12 months, and they set their rents on an annual basis.”
“Q That is very useful. I have one final question. The previous Government did this as well, but the case for a specific ground for possession to ensure that the cyclical nature of the student market continues arose from engagement that said that we had to treat this differently. We do not have much data, and I wonder if you have any from your experience or what you pick up on anecdotally. How often do you think the ground for possession would actually be used? If I am being entirely candid, in my mind I can imagine it sitting there and maybe being of use on the odd occasion, but broadly I do not think that students overstay. Am I right in thinking that? Victoria Tolmie-Loverseed: No, they do not at all. It is not a problem.”
“The Government in Scotland have a committee looking at how they can tackle the issue of student homelessness, and I think that is a bit of a warning for us all that we could very well be in that place in a couple of years’ time if we do not think about the student market, its particular characteristics and what it needs.”
“Q Their yields are quite generous as they are, compared with what is normal. Victoria Tolmie-Loverseed: I do not have a tiny violin for landlords, but I am just saying what we think is likely to happen. It is a commercial operation and landlords need to cover their costs, and we think that if landlords perceive more risk they will seek to put up rents. Your previous witness talked about the situation in Scotland. One of the things we would really like the Government to do before going much further is an impact assessment on the student market, particularly looking at Scotland, because the evidence there about student homelessness as a result of the tenure changes is compelling.”
“We are trying to raise standards in the private rented sector, and we are raising standards in the private rented sector, but the key thing is to implement the reforms in a way that does not undermine investor confidence, so that we do not inhibit the supply of homes.”
“It makes it more difficult for me to manage the property efficiently.” I think the issues around rent determination also have that potential, so there is nervousness around needing to use section 13 and rent increases. There is a suspicion that tenants have nothing to lose by challenging any rent increase, so it is about getting the framework right around how we define what an unreasonable rent increase might be and how we manage those cases that might come before tribunals. There are some issues around that that we would like to see more clarity around and redressed. In general, we are really supportive, because in the part of the market that I represent the decent homes standard already would not cause us an issue in terms of implementation and so on.”
“Anything that damages investors’ confidence that the income they will get from their investment is at risk will undermine our potential to unlock investment into homes and the rental sector. Currently, the peak year for build-to-rent delivery was 15,000 homes. We think that you can double that to 30,000 homes, with the right conditions, and some of my members would go further and say that you can double that again. We are looking at an investment stream that could be a very significant part of helping to deliver the Government’s aspirations to build more homes. What I have already talked about, in terms of the ability of the courts to cope with the reforms, is an important indicator of confidence. Investors will look at that and think, “This changes the basis on which I have invested.”
“Are there lingering concerns that you think will impact on investment in that future supply and professionalising the private rented sector as we grow it? Melanie Leech: The first thing to say, as you know, is that institutional investment into the build-to-rent sector specifically is a growing part of the housing supply mix. It is bringing in genuinely additional investment, because it is the type of investment that does not typically invest in build to sell—you have people wanting to use large amounts of capital to generate secure income streams so that they can match against pension liabilities, insurance liabilities and so on. Probably the key word in that is “secure”.”
“Q Melanie, can I address a specific question to you about suppliers? There has been a lot of discussion today about the mismatch between supply and demand. We have touched on the provisions in the Bill about how tenants can challenge within-tenancy rent increases and so on. In terms of overhauling the private rented sector, the Bill is part of a wider transformation of the housing system that we want to carry out. There is absolutely a chunk of private renters, particularly in the bottom half of the market, who should be in social rented housing, and we want to build more of that, but we also want to grow future supply in the PRS. What do you think the Bill will do specifically to build-to-rent providers? Do you think they will accommodate themselves to these changes?”
“Families renting with children near schools, as well as nurses who have placements, are coming to our agents saying that they want to know how long they are going to be in situ. As I say, we need to provide long-term tenancy options for those who want them and ensure that people do not go to the unregulated short-term lets market.”
“If we really focus and want to be sensible about incentivising landlords and the investment community, we have to shine a spotlight on taxes and costs. Alongside this legislation, we need to enact the registration requirements in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023 on short-term lets as well. Otherwise, we are going to see a further exodus of landlords to the short-term lets market, which is less regulated and has fewer controls in place. We need to build more social homes. Ultimately, as you will know, Minister, our argument remains that we need to retain fixed-term tenancies as an option. They give the landlord and the tenant a guarantee of the length of time they will be there and the rent that they will pay.”
“Let us just remind ourselves that when I talk about landlords here, I am primarily talking about pension funds and insurance funds, so it is our money. Timothy Douglas: I think that is the point. While we need supply—and we need supply from all sources—landlords in the private sector are a broad community. The bulk of private rented sector landlords have one, two or three properties. What is disincentivising investor confidence is not necessarily the competence of this Bill, but the sector would welcome a review of all taxes and costs that have impacted private landlords in the past five years. We have seen the reduction in mortgage interest relief, the 3% additional surcharge when you buy a rented property, tinkering with capital gains tax—some are taxed as businesses while some are not—and changes to the wear and tear allowance.”
“But if we are asking ourselves how we get back to a position where investors can have confidence, we should probably ask ourselves why we are asking that question in the first place. We should be creating a framework within which investors can have that confidence. For example, some of the nervousness will be around the fact that, if you have a litigious tenant who takes you to the tribunal and ultimately to the courts over a rent increase, and the decision goes in the landlord’s favour, you have still lost several months. You cannot backdate the reasonable rent increase for which you have just won the court’s authority, so you have lost a lot of money in terms of both the rent accruing and the amount of time you have to spend going through that process.”
“Q While I have got you on that point, we heard from Ben Beadle earlier a view that landlords would adapt to the date payable of a rent when challenged—I think this is what he implied—by changing the point at which they serve their section 13 notices to perhaps account for that lead-in time. What would you expect to see? Would annual increases be standard or given at a particular time? How do you think that the sector, build-to-rent and the more typical cottage landlords would adapt to that change? Melanie Leech: This is pure speculation, because I have not asked members this question. History suggests that once legislation is passed, those affected by it figure out the best way to protect their interests in the light of the new framework, so I would broadly expect that to happen.”
“Q Can I challenge you on that point, because I have never understood it? Under the rolling, periodic tenancy system that we are introducing, a family that moves into a property can determine when they leave. As long as there is no antisocial behaviour, for example, they can decide when they leave, so they have all the advantages of a fixed-term tenancy. I am not picking up on this cry among tenants for fixed-term tenancies. Perhaps you can elaborate on where you are coming from on that point? What are the additional advantages that are not provided by this rolling, periodic system? Timothy Douglas: We have just been talking about the other side of the coin, which is investors.”
“Many tenants opted for tenancies between one and three years, with the average first term lasting 23 months. At the end of the initial term, 65% of tenants choose to renew. Only 1% of tenancies are ended early by landlords; 5% are ended by tenants. People know where they stand and where they are going to be. It is an option that should be included in the legislation. We have talked today about students as well. It would solve all the problems in the student market. We are tinkering there with issues that just do not exist. Retain fixed-term tenancies for all, or at least within the student market, or extend ground 4A to one or more sharers. You are tying yourselves in knots in so many ways.”
“No, not investors. You made a point about tenants. Timothy Douglas: Yes, but that is the crux of it. Unfortunately, if you push too far on the fixed-term tenancy option, the grounds are not robust enough for landlords. Unfortunately, they do not know how long the tenant is going to be in situ. They cannot plan their investment, and they do not know the return on their rent. It is a mutual agreement. We are not saying that it is one or the other. We are saying retain it as an option. Why are we legislating to reduce choice and flexibility? Agents are telling me up and down the country that that is what tenants want. The leading letting agent in London, which manages 65,000 tenancies, says that fixed-term contracts are popular within the private-rented sector.”
“The majority—maybe 90%—of a local authority’s work is carried out through informal advice giving, with people ringing up and asking for guidance in what is a very complex legislative environment. That is certainly something that landlords and letting agents would like to have more of. We serve formal legal notices, but it is only when we have gone through a whole series of informal approaches that we move to a formal approach through a legal notice and, ultimately, a prosecution or penalty notice. Therefore, really, we are looking at maybe 5%—to pluck a figure out of the air—which is a tiny proportion of what we have got across the country, and probably the only national figures we have on this are those that have been pulled together by the NRLA.”
“We see that approximately £12 million was given in penalties over that period, and around £6 million of that was recorded as collected through penalties over that period. It is also worth noting that these civil penalty notices are intended to be an alternative to a prosecution through the courts; they are not intended to be a revenue generator. The licensing fees, the ombudsman fee and the database fees are where we can generate the revenue at the front end. These civil penalty notices are being used as a final, ultimate punishment for some of the worst offenders. Yes, we can administer £7,000 for the initial offence and £40,000 for ongoing offenders, but they really are intended to be a deterrent, as opposed to a source of revenue.”
“We recognise that it will not be enough, and that the new burdens principle will have to operate, but have you got a sense of it in terms of, as you say, how many cases are resolved before it reaches that point? What will be the willingness under the new system to levy these kinds of fines, and what proportion of the enforcement costs do you think, on average, local authorities might see those fines account for? Dr Henry Dawson: Thank you for your question, Minister. At the moment, we have the use of civil penalty notices, and I would defer to a report by the National Residential Landlords Association to provide a summary of their use over the period between 2001 and 2003.”
“Q Could I follow up on the point about local authority enforcement? The Bill introduces an effective, consistent and proportionate framework for enforcement, but we have to ensure that local authorities can enforce in practice, and we know that there is variation across the country in their ability to do so. There is also the wider context about resourcing of local government over the recent period. We are clear that we want to primarily target along the “polluter pays” principle, with bad landlords covering the cost of their own enforcement. You mentioned the fines—£7,000 for first or minor compliance issues, and £40,000 for more serious ones— and they can be levied repeatedly. I just want to get a sense of how much of the cost of enforcement you think those fines can account for.”
“Q I want to pick up on a specific point about the antisocial behaviour grounds for possession. Adam, the Local Government Association has expressed concerns about the definition of antisocial behaviour. I wondered whether that was linked to the previous definition, which we have amended. Cllr Adam Hug: indicated assent.”
“I think the key thing for us is supporting where we are now, in terms of reverting to “likely”, but, also, there needs to be clear guidance given by the Department—obviously, building on existing case law—with clear definitions from your team about what constitutes antisocial behaviour, both so that landlords know and so that councils can know regarding enforcement. I am sure that there are teams at the LGA, and others, that are happy to work with you on the development of that, but giving clear guidance to the sector is going to be essential to ensuring that the powers are used effectively.”
“You are nodding vigorously, which is a good indicator, but have you got views more widely about the changes that we have made on antisocial behaviour—about being able to take action immediately, for example, or considering the implications on other people in a household, as well as that switch back to “likely”, rather than “capable of”, which we felt was too broad under the previous legislation? Cllr Adam Hug: Absolutely. We agree that the previous legislation was too broad to be meaningful.”
“Therefore, we would not be relying on what are often chat forums and other informal information sources for our landlord operators to address problems on what is usually a responsive and as-and-when-they-occur basis. Eighty-five per cent of landlords in the sector own one to three properties. That is roughly half the sector’s total housing stock, so those are the landlords we need to focus on trying to support. Providing advice and guidance will be an invaluable function of the database operator.”
“Things that would make it more effective include ensuring local authorities’ ease of access to the records on the database; providing local authorities with broad enforcement powers that would allow things such as the provision of information from any person; and the ability readily to access records of other local authorities’ enforcement activities. These sorts of records make it much easier for us to co-ordinate our activity across different areas of the country. Having a single database operator, providing, as one of its functions, a source of advice in the industry would also provide us with a single point of information to refer people to when they come to us asking for support. That would alleviate a lot of the burden and the time our officers spend managing these requests for information.”
“Q We have spoken about the database before. I think it has the potential to be an incredibly powerful tool on a number of fronts to the benefit of tenants but also local authorities in bearing down on more disreputable landlords, including criminal landlords. Can you give us a sense of what you think the sector needs in terms of detail coming through in secondary legislation for that database to be able to operate most effectively for local authorities? Dr Henry Dawson: The CIEH would be keen to be part of discussions with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government about the operation of that database. I note that quite a lot of the content in the Bill is to be delivered through secondary legislation, and if we could be part of the shaping of that legislation, it would be very welcome.”
“We are pleased that the Government are keen to crack down on discrimination in the private rented sector against people on low incomes, but this is one way that it is happening and we feel that the Bill could do more on that issue. I have two more areas that my members want me to speak to, if that is okay.”
“We are overjoyed that this Bill will end bidding wars, which is something we have campaigned for in different places across the country. We have tried to get agents themselves to pledge not to do it and then mystery shopped them to make sure that they are not. But if you allow agents and landlords at the start of a tenancy to ask, “How many months up front can you give me? Someone else said they could give me a year”, that is another form of bidding war, just at a different point of the process. We conducted some research at the start of this month and found that benefit claimants were three times more likely to be asked for a year’s rent up front than people not claiming benefits.”
“We would also like it to be made easier for people and councils to take these criminal cases forward. It can be quite hard to meet the evidence threshold needed to get a rent repayment order, so we would like to see changes there, which I have laid out in our written evidence. We would also like the civil penalty notices that councils can use to be raised to up to £60,000. I know that sounds high, but being forced out of your home with your family is a horrendous thing to happen to anyone. We want to ensure that this is treated with the seriousness that it deserves. Illegals eviction is one area that my members asked me to speak about. I have also spoken about landlord licensing. A further issue is rent in advance.”
“Recently we had a member in Leeds whose landlord kept issuing false eviction notices—ones that he could not go to his local council to ask for support with, so he stayed there. The landlord used many different underhand ways to try to force him out, including sending men with knives to cut the wires in his house so that he did not have any electricity. He has been on the phone for hours to his council and the police, and they have not been very helpful. We want to see those bodies empowered with both the duties and the money to act for tenants. Police forces need more training. I have supported tenants who landlords have tried to intimidate out of their house. The police do not seem to know that this is a criminal offence or that they have the ability to act on it, so it would be good if there was training on that.”
“For that unscrupulous group, we are worried that illegal evictions might take the place of section 21 evictions once section 21s are banned. We feel that the Bill could go further to make sure that this is not an easy option for them to take. Hardly any cases of illegal eviction ever make it to court. Safer Renting data showed that there were 26 prosecutions in 2022—the year we have the most recent data for—but it knew about 9,000 cases of illegal eviction. Even when illegal evictions get to court, the fines are £1,000. That is less than my monthly rent. It is not a deterrent for the average landlord. We would like to suggest some changes to make sure that this is not used as a back door to get around the legislation. We would like to see local councils given a statutory duty and the funding to investigate all cases of illegal eviction.”
“Q Given the time, I will ask you a more general question. Do you think—it sounds like you do—that the Bill broadly strikes the right balance and properly delivers for renters? Are there any omissions, things you would like us to address or parts of the Bill you think we need to look at more carefully? Anny Cullum: One area our Members feel particularly strongly about that could be strengthened in the Bill to ensure that it delivers the change we all want to see is measures against illegal evictions. It will be wonderful when section 21 is banned, but we know that there are lots of landlords who issue section 21 eviction notices in response to tenants complaining, because they do not want to maintain their properties.”
“We acknowledge that it is a problem, and I hope that they will take my assurances at face value when I say that we are working on solutions to it and will bring them forward in due course. We want to listen to the experiences of hon. Members across the country—although this is a north-east debate, the problem very much affects constituencies in all parts of England. As I say, we are committed to taking firm action to end the injustice of fleecehold and better protect residential freeholders from those costs, and I look forward to bringing further information to the House to that end. Question put and agreed to .”
“This is a distinct subset of problems on private and mixed tenure estates, but it sits alongside a range of problems experienced by residential leaseholders and freeholders. That is why the Government will take steps to enact the remaining Law Commission recommendations around enfranchisement and the right to manage; it is why we will take steps to reinvigorate commonhold and ensure that it is the default tenure; and it is why we intend to take steps to tackle specific problems, such as the injustice of forfeiture and unaffordable, unreasonable ground rents. I hope to be able to say more on that topic soon. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cramlington and Killingworth and other hon. Members for raising their concerns about this issue.”
“The consultation that we intend to publish in due course will need to consider a wide range of trade-offs, including costs to homeowners and local authorities, potential impacts on housing supply and the links to the planning system. In direct response to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Chris McDonald) asked, we will absolutely consider the recommendations made by the CMA and respond to its report directly in the interim, but it is one of a number of potential solutions to this problem. We want to consider everything in the round to ensure that we have the right answer when we bring it forward. The reforms we intend to make in this area, in whatever form they ultimately take, sit alongside our wider plans to bring the feudal system of leasehold to an end, and they need to be seen in that context.”
“If we introduce that secondary legislation and it contains flaws, it is their constituents and mine who will suffer, so it is important that we take time to get it right and to engage with stakeholders. Work is ongoing in that area. . We are clear that the measures in the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act are not enough, which is why, in the Government’s manifesto, we committed to ending the injustice of fleecehold and better protecting residential freeholders against unfair costs. That is why we reiterated that commitment in the King’s Speech. This is a complex area of policy, which is why the Government intend to consult with homeowners, developers, local authorities, management companies and others so that we can develop meaningful and effective solutions to these problems.”
“The Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act 2024 took steps to give existing homeowners on such estates additional protections and enable them to hold their estate manager to account for the money that is spent. The Act created a new statutory regime for homeowners based on leaseholders’ rights. It includes improved transparency over such charges to ensure that they are reasonably set, and a new right to challenge them if they are not. Bringing those measures into effect will require detailed secondary legislation. Given the considerable amount of detail and thought that we need to put into them, we are working at pace, but I hope my hon. Friends will appreciate that it is important that we take time to get the detail right.”