Patsy McGlone
Mid Ulster · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“Limiting the power to dismiss charges involving the death of or serious physical harm to a vulnerable person will enhance the fairness and integrity of those criminal proceedings.”
“The SDLP welcomes the provisions for the long-overdue establishment of a statutory Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses of Crime. That is a significant step forward in the development of our justice system.”
“Putting the office on a statutory footing will ensure that the commissioner's role is legally recognised and accountable to the public and the justice system. The Minister outlined a number of the measures in the process of accountability.”
“OK. I thank my colleague — indeed, the Minister — for responding. It is, as the Minister said and my colleague highlighted, a sensitive area. People who are approached to give a reference should think long and hard about the implications of the references that they give: where they might wind up; the circumstances in which they give them;…”
“The SDLP welcomes the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill and the opportunity to debate it, alongside the Chairperson — or should I say, "Mr Amendment" — at its Second Stage.”
“I accept that the Minister's Department, as she has stated repeatedly, does not have the capacity or resources to develop those legislative provisions during this mandate.”
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“As we all know, household budgets are under enormous pressure. Childcare continues to be exorbitantly expensive and, in many areas, difficult if not impossible to access. Rampant inflation might have eased somewhat, but prices are still rising. Often, the choice for a household that is under severe financial pressure is between food and heat. That is why a fuel poverty strategy is essential, if the Executive parties are serious about tackling hardship. Fuel poverty has significant impacts on a household's quality of life, as well as on an individual's physical and mental health and well-being. Overall, fuel poverty is typically a direct consequence of three main factors: a comparatively low household or personal income; household energy costs; and the energy efficiency of a home.”
“I thank the Minister for that detail. Perhaps we could establish whether there is more information around the level of delay that has been experienced by some people. <BR /> <BR />In a previous debate, the Minister referred to the need for or the use of pre-application discussions. Will he commit to providing extra resources to NI Water to facilitate that?”
“I thank the Minister very much for his answer; indeed, he answered my supplementary question as well. I recently referred to the Minister a case of a very rare form of genetic cancer. Will he please consider whether there is an opportunity to deal with that on a cross-border basis, or maybe through further collaboration with some UK hospitals?”
“I thank the Minister for her response, particularly the part about social, environmental and economic well-being. Does the Minister agree that, in many areas, there is increased rural isolation, which has been brought about by a denuding of services in some areas, such as health, domiciliary care and the like? We already have a problem with the absence of public transport in some areas. Does she agree that that could be exacerbated by the absence of EV infrastructure —”
“What steps will be taken to provide that service?”
“San am i láthair, tá muid in áit iontach aisteach, ina dtig leat teastas breithe a fháil as Gaeilge, deimhniú báis a fháil as Gaeilge, ach ní thig leat uacht a dhéanamh as Gaeilge ach an oiread.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I have a brief point about NI Water's resources and its capacity to engage with developers. I know of about 400 houses that cannot be built because of delays with NI Water and resources and stuff. However, they are under capacity themselves at the moment. That engagement with developers could take many months before we get a conclusion.”
“Let us look at what is being proposed today. When the Minister has already admitted to the Assembly that we will have to do things differently when it comes to increasing the capacity of water and sewerage infrastructure for those developments, let us look properly at the options and have an informed debate on the way forward. Tacaím leis an rún agus leis an leasú.”
“It is not clear what assessment the Minister has made of that new approach, but there will be consequences. The costs involved in improving the capacity of our water and sewerage infrastructures are not negligible. Attempting to raise funding from developers will increase the unit cost per house in those developments — Mr Nesbitt referred to that — and there is likely to be a further reduction in the overall number of houses being built. Significantly, at a time when there is a crisis in demand for social housing, it will lessen the number of social housing units being built. Pushing the cost of housing higher across the board will make social housing unaffordable for and unavailable to those who need it. <BR /> <BR />If the Minister is saying that the current model does not work, let us look at the alternatives.”
“That is what the motion does. However, the Minister appears to have already decided that the shortfall in funding can be made up by demanding that developers pay more. On 5 March, the Minister stated of the delivery of waste water treatment works for developments that:”
“The current price control 21 agreement aimed to invest £2·1 billion in water infrastructure between 2021 and 2027, but it is increasingly clear that securing that funding is unachievable under the current funding model. <BR /> <BR />When I raised the issue of underinvestment in sewerage and water with the Minister in the Assembly on 5 March, the Minister first questioned the evidence for the impact of that underinvestment on the ecological crisis in Lough Neagh. He went on to state:”
“In many areas, new businesses cannot be established, and existing businesses cannot expand, because the water, waste water and sewerage infrastructure does not have the capacity for them to do so. Indeed, the lack of capacity is moving us to the stage where local development plans are becoming hypotheses: notional ideas about the development of areas without realisation. NI Water has stated that the construction of 19,000 homes across Northern Ireland is at risk due to the lack of appropriate water and sewerage infrastructure. <BR /> <BR />NI Water knows what needs to be done to address the long-standing issues with the water infrastructure. It has completed the preparatory work, including designs and studies, but needs the funding.”
“Clearly, there needs to be increased investment, as the infrastructure is not fit for purpose. <BR /> <BR />The impact on our environment of the overflow of combined waste water and sewerage systems has been highlighted many times in the Chamber. The cross-departmental working group on Lough Neagh has recommended a cash injection of £131 million to NI Water for the upgrading of 18 waste water treatment works that have an impact on Lough Neagh. The recent report by the NI Comptroller and Auditor General on water quality in our rivers and lakes warns of the impact being felt now from the lack of investment in NI Water infrastructure over a prolonged period. <BR /> <BR />Economic development is being restricted because of the limited capacity of the infrastructure network.”
“We in the SDLP welcome the motion. We believe that it offers the opportunity to explore the options without a commitment to restructure NI Water at this time. However, we need to be convinced that any restructuring will not result in water charges. As Mr Boylan said, such charges are entirely unacceptable, as, indeed, is the kind of profiteering and chaos that has been allowed to develop in England. <BR /> <BR />The amendment calls on the DUP and Sinn Féin to do what they have been unable or unwilling to do until now and agree to deliver the required investment in water and sewerage capacity. The Executive parties could and should increase investment in our water and sewerage infrastructure. The question is this: why do they not? The motion calls for an exploration of other ways to achieve that.”
“Thank you for the amount of detail that you have given us. Your recent announcement, Minister, of financial support for students at universities did not contain further financial support for FE students in particular. Is there any reason why they were left out of that announcement?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Aire. Gabhaim buíochas leat as an méid atá ráite agat.”
“Will you give us some idea of what the process will then be? Will the research be done, and, if potential good resolutions are identified in that, will there be invitations to companies that might fit the bill for those resolutions?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra.”
“I concur with the Minister's congratulations to the new Chief Veterinary Officer, Brian Dooher. I have met him on a number of occasions, and I am sure that he will prove to be a capable and effective public servant. <BR /> <BR />We are talking about compensation. Can you tell us what advice you have taken on addressing the spread of TB, which is the real problem? What information have you sought to establish how TB has been addressed in other jurisdictions? What conclusions has the Department come up with as to the best and most effective way of eradicating the disease?”
“In regard to the recent use or, I should say, abuse of public interest immunity (PII) certificates to frustrate the inquest process, particularly the inquest into the murder of Sean Brown, will the Minister endorse the comments by Mr Justice Kinney on the establishment of a public inquiry into his murder?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his response. <BR /> <BR />Does the Minister agree that underinvestment in sewerage and water infrastructure is the biggest contributory factor in almost rendering local development plans as wish lists and, as well as that, contributing to the major environmental crisis that we had last year in Lough Neagh?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. I thank the Minister for his statement. The general theme of what the Minister has proposed requires quite a bit of supervision and monitoring, and I see that the Minister mentioned the role and function of dog wardens in councils. Inevitably, that will be an increased role and function for those dog wardens in enforcement, monitoring and the likes. Will additional resources be provided to those councils in order to effect that monitoring and enforcement?”
“As we know, during the worst excesses of COVID, our health service workers were at the coalface, helping to save people's lives. Does the Member agree that many of those people are emotionally and mentally fatigued as a result of that, and that they deserve much more than claps?”
“I listened to the Minister as he committed to working on NICE guidelines, options appraisal and commissioning various arrangements. Is the Minister developing a strategy for diabetes? If so, when will that strategy be available, and what level of commitment will be made to that financially and resource-wise?”
“I just noticed that the Bank of Ireland profits this year are up by 92%. That is absolutely incredible. Given that the UK Treasury currently owns over a third of NatWest, will the Minister appeal to the Treasury to intervene to prevent Ulster Bank closures of various branches, particularly in rural areas, as previously referred to by Mr Aiken?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí go nuige seo.”
“That is just some of the synopsis. I am sorry that I have not got around everyone: if I had more time, I would do that. I thank Members for their input to the debate and their support for our amendment.”
“She called for capital funding for the ports, as reflected in the motion. <BR /> <BR />Patrick Brown referred to the hard-working people, UK immigration rules, the problems with the UK's exit from Europe and, indeed, decarbonisation —.”
“He also referred to people not being as aware as they should be of where their fish suppers come from. William, the next time you are travelling through Cookstown, I recommend the Brewery Lane Grill, which does a great fish supper. The fish there is delivered every week from Ardglass, and it is a top fish supper. Thank you for drawing attention to that. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong mentioned fishing in Portavogie. She also mentioned the problems with Brexit and access to funding and asked how the Minister can help in that regard. The Minister outlined that, hopefully, there will soon be proposals in that regard. <BR /> <BR />Diane Forsythe gave a very local perspective as someone who grew up in Kilkeel. She provided local knowledge of how the markets, the factories and the subsidiary businesses there need the local fishing industry.”
“Tom Elliott made good points about Lough Neagh and, during an intervention, some more local points about the ESB substation in Ballyshannon. He referred to the European Union quotas and to Brexit, the NI protocol, the Windsor framework and the need for support for fishing. <BR /> <BR />Sinéad Ennis spoke about the number of occasions on which she and her party colleagues have met fishermen from the local industry. She referred to workforce issues, the importance of resolving labour difficulties, the need for training and the need to encourage young people to take up the trade. That need is not confined to the one industry but is reflected in many cases across our rural workforce. William Irwin referred to the tremendous respect that he had for people who go out to fish in dangerous seas and the work that they do.”
“He also referred to the migration laws that I have already spoken about. <BR /> <BR />During the debate, we heard Cathy Mason refer to marine conservation; the need for sustainability of our flora and fauna; the requirement for, and the importance of, regulation; and the need to prevent overfishing. John Blair spoke about the importance of the fishing industry to the economy and about the importance to the industry and, indeed, all of us of the climate change targets that are on us now to meet. He also referred to the need for the green environment, stock management and the importance of North/South and east-west bodies to ensuring a coordinated approach to the entire fishing industry and that economy.”
“Those immigration policies were referred to as being extreme, and, in fact, they are, with people not being able to bring their families over with them. All those issues contribute to the problems facing the sector and, indeed, other sectors. It is not just the fishing sector but the home care sector, the nursing home sector, the nursing sector and the health service that are affected. In all those sectors, those vicious migration policies are having an impact on how we go about our care and our economy. I thank Members for raising those issues. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Colin McGrath referred to the effects of Brexit on the fishing industry, how Brexit went wrong, the capacity in the fishing sector and the uncertainty that has been brought about by the various factors that have been raised multiple times by Members around the Chamber.”
“I thank all Members who have contributed well to the debate and, indeed, for their support for the motion and the amendment. Initially, Michelle McIlveen asked whether the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs had raised the issues of the departmental budget and the need for investment with the Minister of Finance. The Minister mentioned that in his response. Miss McIlveen referred to labour shortages, price increases and problems with the visa system, which my colleague, in speaking to the amendment, sought to highlight in particular. It is not an area that I know very well, but I am reliant on good people such as the representatives of fishing areas to highlight the issues as they see them and as they pan out. <BR /> <BR />The consequences of Brexit, rising fuel prices and UK Government immigration policies were raised.”
“Coarse fishing is also a big booster for Northern Ireland tourism, given the number of people who come here for coarse fishing competitions. Will the Member take that point?”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and I appreciate the motion that is before us. The motion refers to Northern Ireland's fishing industry. It would be a useful marker — I am sure that the Minister is well aware of it — to say that Lough Neagh also has a significant fishing industry that will require support and some recognition that, over the last year, in particular, the worst manifestations of the algae bloom has had an effect on the zebra mussels and on the fishing industry itself. I ask that the Minister and the proposer of the motion also take cognisance of that fact.”
“<BR /> <BR />We need to produce more qualified speech and language therapists, not just to meet the increasing demand in the sectors that are already provided for but, as is indicated in the text of the motion, to expand provision into other sectors where it can have a real and beneficial impact on people's lives.”
“That was after a decrease in numbers from 32 places in 2009 to 23 places in 2018. Last year, that figure had risen at Ulster University to 38 places available, just short of the target. The number of applicants for places has more than doubled at the same time, from 261 people applying in 2019 to 543 last year. The current number of applicants for 2024 is 643. The demand and the need for places is there. The Department of Health has more than a significant role to play, in collaboration with the Department of Justice where it affects the justice system.”
“It argued persuasively that early years settings and primary schools should have greater access to play therapists, speech and language therapists and educational psychologists. I am sure that all of us know that from our experiences within our constituency offices. The Education Minister should restart the Healthy Happy Minds scheme, for example, but even in terms of the focus of the motion, there will need to be more investment in the speech and language therapy workforce. The Department of Health's workforce review report on speech and language therapy in 2019 recommended:”
“It enables the provision of specialist support to help to reduce antisocial and offending behaviours. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP is happy to support the motion. However, we would like to see resources made available to support interventions at much earlier points in people's lives. For a variety of reasons — in particular, in areas of deprivation — too many children are ill-prepared for learning by the time they reach school age. In its response to the recent independent review of education in Northern Ireland, the RCSLT highlighted the need for the development of multidisciplinary speech teams, with classroom teachers supported by a range of other specialists in all schools, colleges and other educational institutions.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the criminal justice system, research by the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists (RCSLT) has indicated that up to 60% of young people who offend in Northern Ireland have low language skills. The RCSLT's screening of a sample of residents at Hydebank Wood College found that 75% of the women and 100% of the men assessed had speech, language and communication difficulties. Studies have repeatedly shown that speech and language therapy results in better language and education outcomes and can be particularly effective with young offenders. Furthermore, it has been demonstrated in the United States that an institution with full-time speech and language therapy provision can have a reoffending rate of less than half the national average. Better communication benefits the criminal justice system too.”
“I welcome the motion and the opportunity to debate this issue. The SDLP believes that speech and language therapy is a cost-effective and important service that can transform lives and empower individuals. If unaddressed, however, speech, language and communication needs can have a long-term impact on an individual's education, employment, social inclusion and mobility with mental health and, as reflected in the motion, involvement with the justice system. At least 30,000 people in the North live with long-term communication difficulties, and that figure is likely to continue to rise, unfortunately. A large percentage of people with learning disabilities have communication difficulties too, along with around a third of stroke victims and a fifth of people with brain injuries.”
“Does he agree that A&E is not the best place for that help?”
“Yes. Thank you. You are taking me to where I was going to take you. The first thing is that people are winding up at A&E when they should be going to their GP. The second thing — this is a huge issue — is about mental health services: people with severe mental health or addiction problems are attending A&E. That is not the right place for them. Their problems are being compounded by having a lot of sick people around them. It is not a conducive environment for calming down a person who has severe mental health problems; nor is it a good environment for the rest of the people who are there with physical health problems. It is not being done in the right way. Does the Member agree that there has to be some sort of triaging system to ensure that people with severe mental health and addiction problems get help as soon as possible?”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for highlighting this very issue. I had occasion very recently to be in A&E with my mother. The first thing that you see is the pressures that the staff are under, but you also see police officers spending a lot of time in A&E. I spoke to one of them and said slightly jokingly, "You could probably get a job here". He said, "Yes, and in social services as well". Often, the police are the first responders because of the pressures on our Ambulance Service. That is the situation that we are in. <BR /> <BR />I say a big thank you, genuinely, to the staff in Causeway Hospital's A&E for their help and support on that night. It was a great relief to me and our family.”
“Thank you for that. The Minister has brought me nicely on to the next part of my question. I have heard from different people that, sometimes, even though issues such as those are reported on the hotline, it can be some time before they are investigated by NIEA officials. Are there sufficient resources there? If not — there clearly do not seem to be — will you make a bid for additional resources for NIEA?”
“I thank the Minister, and I wish him well in his new position. Minister, as is obvious from your response, we both agree on the need for independent oversight to call out your Department, and indeed other Executive colleagues, on environmental issues such as the one that we have experienced, the ecological crisis in Lough Neagh. Can you give the Assembly a time frame for the completion of the governance review and when might we see the actual process of establishing an independent environmental protection agency? We have had many reviews but no action.”
“— or beds in nursing homes can be more expensive than domiciliary care packages. <BR /> <BR />We could talk about many other issues in depth with the Minister, but I am sure that, as a constituency worker himself, he gets the gist of the problems. If we pay people a decent wage and provide people with a proper career structure, we will be able to deliver the necessary service in our communities.”
“If those aids are not provided in the home for someone who is disabled, perhaps profoundly so, that makes it more difficult for the care workers when they come in to fulfil their duties. Therefore, it is not just about the delivery of domiciliary care packages. <BR /> <BR />The trust has been forced to use step-down beds or interim-care placements until domiciliary care packages are available to free up acute hospital beds. It is important to note that putting people into step-down beds —”
“The trust's terms and conditions are good, insofar as they can be, but in some of what is referred to as the independent sector — that is code for the private sector — the terms and conditions are not appropriate to pay people what they are due for travel. <BR /> <BR />It is not just a problem of a shortage of home care workers. There are delays in occupational therapists' assessments of the need for home aids and home adaptations for people with mobility issues, and that is exacerbating the situation. In theory, that should be an all-round assessment of what is required, whether it is adaptations to the bathroom, the bedroom or other areas of the house that can ease the situation for the person concerned. That is not happening in a coordinated fashion.”
“It is a fact, and I have seen this recently, that a person has to die for another person to get the required domiciliary care package that they have been waiting on for so long. If a care worker goes off sick or, as with a case that I know, on maternity leave, for example, there is no one to replace them on the rota. There is no one to replace them, and people are contacting us to see what we can do about that. There is no one to replace them. Yes, it is certainly a management issue, but, if you do not pay people, you cannot expect to get them. If you do not pay people a decent wage, you cannot expect to get them. Another aspect is that, where care workers are available, they can be limited in how far they can travel.”