Patsy McGlone
Mid Ulster · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“Limiting the power to dismiss charges involving the death of or serious physical harm to a vulnerable person will enhance the fairness and integrity of those criminal proceedings.”
“The SDLP welcomes the provisions for the long-overdue establishment of a statutory Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses of Crime. That is a significant step forward in the development of our justice system.”
“Putting the office on a statutory footing will ensure that the commissioner's role is legally recognised and accountable to the public and the justice system. The Minister outlined a number of the measures in the process of accountability.”
“OK. I thank my colleague — indeed, the Minister — for responding. It is, as the Minister said and my colleague highlighted, a sensitive area. People who are approached to give a reference should think long and hard about the implications of the references that they give: where they might wind up; the circumstances in which they give them;…”
“The SDLP welcomes the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill and the opportunity to debate it, alongside the Chairperson — or should I say, "Mr Amendment" — at its Second Stage.”
“I accept that the Minister's Department, as she has stated repeatedly, does not have the capacity or resources to develop those legislative provisions during this mandate.”
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“Minister, officials from your Department and DAERA met 13 times on proposals for the A5. My colleague's FOI request returned from DAERA with a series of major redactions that revealed little or nothing. In the interests of openness and transparency, do you support the placing in the public domain of the unredacted minutes of those 13 meetings so that people can see with their own eyes exactly what happened at them?”
“Minister, I heard your response to Mr Beattie on a specific question about the welfare of officers and their families. What discussions have you had or what preparations have you made, if any, with the Minister of Justice in the past 12 months on the matter?”
“Minister, you mentioned resource issues. The Northern Ireland qualification audit highlighted some significant gaps in the early years workforce's qualifications. What concrete steps are you taking to fill that gap in order to develop what is a particularly important sector?”
“A Aire, dúirt Uachtarán Chonradh na Gaeilge le déanaí go bhfuil an-díomá uirthi faoin mhoill atá ar cheapachán na gcoimisinéirí teanga. Cad é go díreach an chúis leis an mhoill ar na ceapacháin sin laistigh den Choiste Feidhmiúcháin?”
“<BR /> <BR />Our message is clear. If the Executive have no new ideas for tackling child poverty, we and the community sector do. The public, however, will be asking what the Executive parties can agree on if they cannot or will not agree to funding an effective strategy to tackle child poverty. Tacaím leis an rún seo inniu.”
“Thank you for that, Mr Deputy Speaker. My colleague makes the point that I was trying to make, and perhaps in a much more articulate way, as ever. <BR /> <BR />In the meantime, community-sector organisations are telling us that they want to help develop a meaningful plan. We are therefore back in the Assembly and bringing their message to the Executive. Our motion calls for an anti-poverty strategy that is fit for purpose and that introduces proven interventions: interventions that have been adopted in Scotland and in the rest of Ireland that have reduced child poverty rates significantly. For example, a child payment for families on universal credit, tax credits or other qualifying benefits; accessible and affordable childcare; and expanded free school meals. Those are all policies that the Executive could and should be introducing.”
“<BR /> <BR />Over a year later, child poverty levels in the North are still shockingly high, and what have the Executive done? Their anti-poverty strategy still sits in draft form. There are no new policies and no ring-fenced budget. There are no agreed targets to measure any eventual policy against. Their draft strategy cannot even name which Departments are to be responsible for its three key pillars. That is not good enough. <BR /> <BR />Charities, campaigners and families are right to be angry, as we all should be. They have gone through the Executive's box-ticking exercise for a hollow draft strategy: an exercise that has clearly failed to meet the scale of the crisis. The Minister and the Executive have no new ideas, have no money and evidently see no need for urgency in dealing with the problem.”
“He also said that one in five children in the North were living in relative poverty and nearly one in 10 were living in absolute poverty and that it showed that not only have we, collectively, failed to properly address child poverty but we have allowed the problem to get worse. We also highlighted the challenge that those levels of child poverty present for Northern Ireland in the long term. It is not only a moral challenge; it creates long-term costs for other public services. Child poverty levels impact directly on the education system, the health service and sometimes, sadly, on the criminal justice system and social services, as any Member will know from their constituency office. We believed then, as we do now, that there should be a binding target for child poverty reduction to judge the effectiveness of efforts to tackle it.”
“Over a year ago, the Assembly debated a motion from our party on this very topic. The Northern Ireland Audit Office had just published a report on child poverty, and it found that one in five children in Northern Ireland was living in relative poverty and that nearly 10% of households were unable to afford basic goods. We called on the Minister for Communities to bring forward, by September last year, a comprehensive strategy that included specific and measurable targets to reduce child poverty. We also called on him to work with the Minister of Finance to agree an ambitious ring-fenced budget to deliver on those targets. <BR /> <BR />As my colleague Matthew O'Toole said at the time, the Audit Office report was:”
“Minister, we have heard quite a bit about the working group. In fact, we have heard more about the working group than its actual workings. Can you provide us with some information, at least, on when the information from respective Departments will be collated and will manifest itself into something tangible by way of work, by way of protocols and by way of a meaningful strategy on the way forward?”
“<BR /> <BR />Ar ndóigh níl mé ag tacú leis an mholadh ach arís eile, iarraim ar dhaoine a ghabháil agus bheith ag foghlaim na teanga agus foghlaim cúlra na teanga, agus feicfear go bhfuil cuid spéise inti do gach aon duine. An t-iolrachas cultúir agus an cóimheas, sin iad na dóigheanna ar féidir linn cónaí le chéile agus meas a bheith againn ar a chéile.”
“Mar a bhí mé a ra, tá aiteantas oifigiúil don Ghaeilge i dTuaisceart Éireann anois mar chuid de na gealltanais faoi Chomhaontú Chill Rìmhinn (2006) agus na socruithe deireanacha faoin Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022. Tugann an reachtaíocht sin creat don chomhionannas teanga, don rochtain ar sheirbhísí trí Ghaeilge, agus do chead don phobal a bhféiniúlacht Ghaelach a chur in iúl go poiblí. <BR /> <BR />Tá níos mó i gceist leis an Ghaeilge ná teanga amháin, nó is siombail bheo í de leanúnachas stairiúil, cultúrtha agus spioradálta an oileáin. Trína cur chun cinn agus trí áiseanna córa a chur ar fáil di i dTuaisceart Éireann, aithnítear ní hé amháin teanga ársa, teanga an-ársa mar atá léirithe agam, ach cuid dhílis de chomhthéacs comhaimseartha agus todhchaí chomhchoiteanta na ndaoine uile ar an oileán.”
“Go raibh maith agat. <BR /> <BR />Thank you for that point. I would delight in hearing what percentage the DUP has proposed at Belfast City Council. I have searched for it, and I cannot find a percentage — 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0. All I have heard is mention of majority rule. Mar is eol dúinn uilig, ní oibríonn sin.”
“Mo chultúr féin, rud atá comhroinnte le daoine eile agus le daoine ó chúlraí éagsúla. Cé gur cuireadh faoi chois í ar feadh tréimhsí fada, tá sí anois á hathbheochan tríd an oideachas, na meáin chumarsáide, ealaíon agus saol poiblí. Cuireann pobail Ghaeilge in áiteanna mar Bhéal Feirste agus Doire go mór leis an athfhás seo. <BR /> <BR />Tá aitheantas oifigiúil don Ghaeilge i dTuaisceart Éireann anois mar chuid de na gealltanais faoi Chomhaontú Chill Rìmhinn (2006”
“<BR /> <BR />Le linn na Meánaoise, bhí an Ghaeilge ina teanga riaracháin, dlí agus léinn in Éirinn, agus d’imir sí tionchar suntasach ar theangacha eile, go háirithe ar Ghaeilge na hAlban agus ar an Mhanainnis. Tháinig meath uirthi tar éis an Choncais Angla-Normannaigh agus go háirithe le linn na 17ú agus 18ú haoiseanna, nuair a tháinig an Béarla i réim mar theanga an chumhachta, na trádála agus an oideachais, ar an drochuair. <BR /> <BR />Mar sin féin, mhair an Ghaeilge mar theanga phobail i gceantair thuaithe agus i measc na ndaoine coitianta, ag coinneáil beo gné thábhachtach, gné iontach tábhachtach de chultúr, d’fhilíocht, d’amhránaíocht agus de shainfhéiniúlacht na hÉireann. <BR /> <BR />I gcomhthéacs Thuaisceart Éireann, tá an Ghaeilge ina comhartha tábhachtach d’oidhreacht chomhroinnte agus d’aitheantas cultúrtha.”
“Níl a fhios agam cé acu ar chóir an díospóireacht seo bheith ar cois i gComhairle Cathrach Bhéal Feirste nó anseo. Tá me cinéal idir eatarthu. Cibé, tá súil agam, an méid atá le rá agam go mbeidh sé oideachasúil. <BR /> <BR />Tá an Ghaeilge ar cheann de na teangacha scríofa is sine san Eoraip, le fréamhacha ag síneadh siar níos mó ná 2,000. Tháinig sí chun cinn as an tSean-Ghaeilge a labhraítí in Éirinn, Albain agus Oileán Mhanann, a d’fhorbair ón Cheiltis a tháinig go hÉirinn timpeall 500 R.Ch. Le himeacht ama, d’fhorbair an Ghaeilge a cuid scríbhneoireachta féin, go háirithe leis an Ogham ón chúigiú haois ar aghaidh — an chéad chóras scríbhneoireachta dúchasach in iarthar na hEorpa.”
“Minister, you mentioned the transformation programme. Can you give us some detail on its specifics and on what targets it will set to address the awful scourge of bTB that affects livelihoods and infects herds?”
“I thank the Minister for that. I agree that sentencing is one part of it. Minister, you mentioned the radicalising of individuals. Could you elaborate on how you see your Department working, perhaps with other UK Departments, to stymie the influence particularly of social media on radicalising people who, previously, may well not have been radicalised and got themselves into such a mess?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Our hearts go out to any farming family affected by this particular outbreak, or by any outbreak that affects their flock or herd, as the reinstatement of their business will take a number of months. There was a particular anomaly previously, whereby, from notification to verification of the disease, there was a lapse period in which compensation was not necessarily available to the farmer. Has that anomaly been rectified?”
“That is where the Minister is failing in her duty to the Assembly and the public. There is as yet no shared future vision, action plan or strategy. There must be no more delay. The Minister needs to explain what her vision for the future criminal justice system is. She needs to explain to the Assembly what she plans to do to reach agreement with the Criminal Justice Board on that vision and when. Then, and only then, can effective strategies, objectives and actions, to which my party and I look forward, to achieve that vision can be properly developed.”
“Until the shared future vision is agreed, the corresponding strategy, objectives and actions cannot be properly developed. Again, it would be helpful if the Minister were to explain where any current disagreements on the future vision remain. <BR /> <BR />The Minister previously stated that the CJI has been informed of and accepted her position on the timescales. The Minister has, of course, argued that, given the scale of the ambition and the complexity of the system, it is important to do it right, and so it is. Again, I look forward to hearing from the Minister as to how that intention is going, as it is the Minister's role to lead. <BR /> <BR />Transforming the criminal justice system needs a Minister who is determined to drive the necessary transformation, convince others of the need for reform and get agreement on the way forward.”
“That is not the new start that was promised by the Good Friday Agreement, and certainly not the new start that was promised when policing and justice were eventually devolved. All that has an impact on public confidence in the criminal justice system, and that is the responsibility of the Justice Minister. <BR /> <BR />As the motion points out, it is more than nine months since the publication of the recommendations in the Criminal Justice Inspection report. That report made recommendations for system-wide improvement. It called for the Minister to agree, along with the Criminal Justice Board, a shared future vision and strategic priorities to deliver change across the criminal justice system. To date, it has not happened, and I look forward to the Minister's response on that.”
“There have been systematic abuses of police surveillance powers, and arrests often seem arbitrary. Prosecutions take too long to go to court, and, when they do get to court, sentencing often appears to be unduly lenient, even to the Public Prosecution Service. The Prison Service, the Probation Board, the Youth Justice Agency and Forensic Science all face staffing and resource pressures. The Minister's promise in 2020 to address hate crime as a priority was suspended along with the Executive. The stand-alone hate crime Bill, which was proposed in Judge Marrinan's review of hate crime legislation, has been dropped, as the Minister informed the Assembly in September 2024, because of a lack of time and resource. Over a year later, the Marrinan recommendations that she is bringing forward remain in draft form.”
“We welcome the motion and the opportunity to highlight concerns about the criminal justice system and the experiences of victims and witnesses of criminal activity, since the devolution of policing and justice. The DUP motion, as we now expect from a motion tabled by another Executive party, blames the Justice Minister for almost everything. However, it is, ultimately, the Minister's responsibility to set the agenda and to ensure that strategies are in place to achieve her vision for her Department. Perhaps that is where the problem lies, because the criminal justice system is in need of transformation. Like the Executive, it is not entirely working. <BR /> <BR />The Police Service is understaffed and underfunded, and is not representative of the community.”
“Minister, you rightly outlined a significant list of services being provided. I am sure that the Member opposite will agree that it is getting access to those services in time that is the issue. That is not to query the people who deliver those services; they are very good at what they do. Can the Minister confirm whether the10-year mental health strategy is being properly funded, or are Mid Ulster communities being let down by underinvestment?”
“Ba mhaith liom fáil amach cá huair a bheas an coimisinéir teanga in oifig.”
“Minister, may I add to that? I am glad to see that there is a programme of action for rectifying some of the deficiencies. When will the programme that you just outlined be fulfilled? Will part of that include at least responses to elected representatives that give some clarity on where in the process an application is? What part of the process that you outlined will include improvements in communication and training for councils? I accept that, in many cases, councils refer stuff to NIEA that they should not.”
“Thank you for that, Minister. I hope that the strategy is long-term; it has certainly been long delayed. Will it be sufficiently ambitious to meet the needs and the difficulties that many in our community have to live with?”
“However, the SDLP believes that there is a need for the UK and Irish Governments to adopt positions of full disclosure in legacy investigations. To that end, we have repeatedly called for the removal of any national security vetoes in legacy investigations, including the Omagh bombing inquiry. The British and Irish Governments could and should agree to that measure. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP will continue to engage with both Governments and with victims' groups and consult on the proposals and the forthcoming legislation. Our objective has always been to build a legacy architecture that can deliver a reconciled, shared future. We are committed to working constructively to achieve that shared future.”
“The poison will not be contained and will continue to contaminate the present and the future until properly addressed. Secrecy from Governments and from paramilitary groups has long obstructed the necessary process of truth recovery for victims and their families. Both Governments have now committed themselves to legislating to facilitate full cooperation with the proposed legacy commission. We hope that they will deliver on that. We believe that that full cooperation should also cover existing inquiries, such as the Omagh bombing inquiry. Ultimately, it is for that inquiry, as an independent statutory public inquiry, to decide whether any agreement they enter into is appropriate or whether either Government are not cooperating fully with their investigations.”
“<BR /> <BR />Bridie Brown has been mentioned today, and I emphasise that, for the British Government, a key element is that they listen and that they remove their objection, their stalling and their methodology for trying to prevent the truth from coming out in the case of Sean Brown's murder. It has been before the court multiple times, and there have been multiple findings by High Court judges that the only way forward is a public inquiry. The British Government and the Secretary of State have to withdraw their case, which is placing another blocking stone in the way of that public inquiry. <BR /> <BR />We are running out of opportunities to address the legacy of the past, but, as I warned the Assembly in 2021, attempts to seal off the past are doomed to failure.”
“Without that prospect, there could have been little hope for reconciliation, which, I trust, we all so hope to achieve. <BR /> <BR />We in the SDLP give a cautious welcome to the announcement by both Governments. It represents some progress. However, as we all know, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We will wait until we see the final form of the legislation. No doubt, there will be multiple attempts at amendments. We will wait and see the outcome of that. We have concerns that what is being introduced may fall short in meeting the needs of victims and survivors.”
“Absolutely, and I will come to that too. I said "share a responsibility" — very specific in the language. <BR /> <BR />The agreement announced by the Irish and British Governments at the weekend set outs a new framework for the way forward. It is intended to reform and replace the measures in the widely opposed Legacy Act of the previous Tory Government and more accurately reflect the arrangements agreed by both Governments under the Stormont House Agreement. That process is expected to resolve the legal dispute between the Irish and British Governments that the DUP appears to be concerned about. I remind the DUP that the Legacy Act did not have the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That Act shut the door on the prospect of truth, justice and accountability for victims and survivors.”
“The two parties in the joint office of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister have repeatedly failed to make progress on the legacy arrangements in the Stormont House Agreement of 2014. They share a responsibility for the decade of failure since then to deliver on that vital issue for victims and survivors. I have met those victims and survivors and heard their hurt, their suffering and —”
“I listened intently to the Member who spoke previously. He makes a case for strong collaboration between the British and Irish Governments. I welcome that, if that is his logic; it is not entirely consistent with support for the DUP motion. We cannot support a DUP motion that "deplores" greater cooperation between the British and Irish Governments on proposals for dealing with the legacy of the past or on any other issue of shared responsibility. A case has just been made for shared responsibility. Why should we negate that? We are minded to support the amendment. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP has consistently rejected an amnesty for all those responsible for wrongdoing during the Troubles.”
“The shortcomings and shortcuts in the decision-making highlighted in this judgement are capable of being remedied. We urge the Executive to do the work required this time to make that happen. We cannot have the risk of more lives being lost as a consequence of unnecessary delays.”
“<BR /> <BR />As Mr Justice McAlinden stated in the High Court ruling:”
“I take it that that is a yes, and they will be placed on the public record so that the rest of us, who have a vested interest in the project, will be able to draw our own conclusions as to what did or did not happen. <BR /> <BR />I have to say that other parties in the Executive should be angry at the way that this has been incompetently managed. Executive parties took credit for the ambitions of the Climate Change Act in 2022. Now, some appear to be prepared to abandon those ambitions because of the work required to achieve them. They have the opportunity now to take the necessary actions to ensure that the A5 western transport corridor scheme can withstand further legal challenge. It is within their ability to ensure that the A5 scheme begins construction by the end of the Assembly mandate.”
“To be honest, like everyone else outside both Departments, I do not know what happened at those meetings. That is why I ask, Minister, that the minutes of the meetings be placed on the public record so that we can find out exactly what happened at them and whether the advice from DAERA was wrong or whether DFI chose to ignore it. I do not know.”
“It is not clear whether the DAERA advice was wrong or whether DFI ignored it as well. I make a suggestion to the Minister — maybe she will respond — can the minutes of those meetings please be placed on the public record? I am sure that they will be, under disclosure at the courts, anyway. However, it would be extremely helpful to those of us who want to come to a balanced judgement around it that the minutes of what happened at those 13 meetings be placed on the public record.”
“It took two attempts for the Minister to provide an up-to-date, accurate answer. Between 9 August 2022 and 27 June 2024, there were 13 meetings between officials from those Departments on the A5 project. Those meetings were to assist DFI in preparing its response to the recommendations made by the Planning Appeals Commission. The AERA Minister stated in a letter to me:”
“Vesting orders for land have been quashed, and the Minister faces the prospect of further compensation payments to landowners. This is, however, also the Executive's problem. The A5 upgrade is, after all, an Executive flagship project. The project is intended to provide for critical infrastructure improvements, address regional imbalance, create jobs and benefit the economy, as well as, crucially, improve road safety. The Irish Government have contributed €600 million for the A5 western transport corridor through their Shared Island initiative. Failure to deliver the project will be another failure of the Executive. <BR /> <BR />Following the High Court ruling this year, I asked the AERA Minister for details on the numbers of occasions on which DFI officials sought advice from DAERA in relation to the A5 project.”
“I take that point, but all I am doing is quoting what the Planning Appeals Commission said. OK? Thank you. <BR /> <BR />In October 2023, the public inquiry recommended deferring any decision until carbon budgets and a climate action plan were in place. The then Minister for Infrastructure, who now sits at the Executive table as Finance Minister, chose to ignore those recommendations. His decision has delayed further any attempt to make the A5 safer. That flawed decision to proceed, which was subsequently found to be unlawful, was set up to fail at the first legal challenge. Furthermore, as the High Court found this year, the Department for Infrastructure could not provide a convincing explanation for the decision to ignore the recommendations. <BR /> <BR />It is now, unfortunately, the current Minister's problem to solve.”
“The Planning Appeals Commission had warned of "large adverse impact" on climate from the A5 scheme. It found that there was reasonable scientific doubt that damage could be avoided to the legally protected Tully Bog from increased traffic on the A5. It highlighted the fact that the Department's assessment relied too heavily on modelling without robust ecological evidence.”
“We have also heard claims about why, in October 2024, the then Minister for Infrastructure announced that construction of the A5 upgrade would begin in early 2025. That was, to quote the then Minister:”
“She went through the chronology of events, including on the issues relating to landowners' compensation. Gary Middleton spoke about point-scoring and about the climate change targets. Again, I hope and trust that the DUP is not going in the direction of denying the climate change that is all around us. <BR /> <BR />We tabled the motion because of the incompetent way in which the Executive have mishandled their approach to the necessary upgrade of the A5 western transport corridor. We share the justifiable concerns about the number of deaths that have occurred along the route. Communities along the route have waited too long and have faced delay after delay, while families continue to be devastated by serious and fatal accidents.”
“Over the past 18 years, we have been suffering because the Executive have been grappling with the terms for the road project. Whether we are talking about investment in infrastructure, practical steps to improve road safety or whatever way you choose to dress it up, it needs to be done. <BR /> <BR />Andrew McMurray spoke about the failure to deliver. He referred to the climate action plan and the need to meet the targets in the Climate Change Act. Justin McNulty talked about fairness, equality and people's safety. Timothy Gaston spoke about the issue as fallout from the Climate Change Act, but it was actually fallout from non-compliance with the law. <BR /> <BR />The Minister talked about the ongoing legal proceedings and defended the calibre of the officials who are working on the case.”
“I can tell you that, in fact, I actually did. We will come to that later on. <BR /> <BR />Criticism of climate change targets was a common theme among the issues that were raised, particularly by the DUP. Following on from that, I hope that those Members will not be climate change deniers. Climate change is happening all around us, and that would really not be the place to go. <BR /> <BR />Speaking to his amendment, Mr Butler mentioned the legislative framework, the losses of families and the conflict between Departments, which I will return to in a moment or two. Mr McReynolds referred to the road safety issues and to Mr Justice McAlinden's ruling. Declan McAleer highlighted the importance of the appeal. Stephen Dunne mentioned the human costs, the impacts on families and the tragedy of that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Nicola Brogan supported the Minister in her efforts on the scheme. Mr Martin referred to Mr Justice McAlinden's application of the law. I read one element of the judgement last night. It was a wee bit concerning that he said that the Department's approach could be construed as a case of, "Whatever you're having yourself". He referred, as many Members did, to additional measures for road safety along the route.”
“I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate. The theme throughout has been that those who have lost family members along the road are uppermost in our thoughts and prayers. That loss is deeply disturbing for them and an awful cross to carry through the rest of their lives. That should be uppermost in the debate. <BR /> <BR />The motion was proposed by my colleague Daniel McCrossan, who referred to delays and mismanagement, the growth in the cost of the project, the need to deal with the condition of the road at the moment and the significant role of the Irish Government. I listened carefully to Mr Gildernew's comments about the requirement for the road to help to develop the west. Helping to address the regional imbalance is key, and the role of the Irish Government in that is pivotal.”