Patsy McGlone
Mid Ulster · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“Limiting the power to dismiss charges involving the death of or serious physical harm to a vulnerable person will enhance the fairness and integrity of those criminal proceedings.”
“The SDLP welcomes the provisions for the long-overdue establishment of a statutory Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses of Crime. That is a significant step forward in the development of our justice system.”
“Putting the office on a statutory footing will ensure that the commissioner's role is legally recognised and accountable to the public and the justice system. The Minister outlined a number of the measures in the process of accountability.”
“OK. I thank my colleague — indeed, the Minister — for responding. It is, as the Minister said and my colleague highlighted, a sensitive area. People who are approached to give a reference should think long and hard about the implications of the references that they give: where they might wind up; the circumstances in which they give them;…”
“The SDLP welcomes the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill and the opportunity to debate it, alongside the Chairperson — or should I say, "Mr Amendment" — at its Second Stage.”
“I accept that the Minister's Department, as she has stated repeatedly, does not have the capacity or resources to develop those legislative provisions during this mandate.”
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“I am trying to tease out that issue of tariffs. You said that it was for the judiciary to determine tariffs, including full-life tariffs, but there is also the issue of parole where a person convicted of murder has not disclosed the location of the victim's body, which falls within the remit of DOJ. First, is the Minister prepared to change the legislation on the tariffs that are implemented by the courts? Secondly, will parole be made unavailable to persons who have not disclosed the whereabouts of their victim's body in circumstances where they have been convicted of murder?”
“I thank the Member for that. I will make one last point. There is a duty on us all to be a good neighbour and to keep an eye out for older people in our communities, particularly in rural areas, who are living alone, sometimes in isolation. We do not need to be nosy or intrusive, but we should keep a watchful eye out for them.”
“However, we have some very valuable projects in our constituencies. For example, Agewell in Magherafelt makes almost 500 calls each morning to vulnerable and older people. That is vital. It provides handyman services and key installations to allow access for homecare workers. That is vital for many older people. The role and function of those domiciliary care workers is integral and is a lifeline for older people. It is important to have more tick-tack between the statutory agencies at that level.”
“There is also a recommendation relating to the court infrastructure.”
“That, too, is valuable, along with the recommendations about the judiciary, criminal justice practitioners and the recommendation:”
“needs to be drilled down into. That is a requirement. <BR /> <BR />It is also recommended that:”
“That is particularly useful and important. The recommendation on PSNI and PPS training is also very important. Of course, the issue of:”
“Those are two very useful points. Perhaps the Minister can reflect on those in her response. <BR /> <BR />The report recommends that the DOJ engage with the Commissioner for Older People on the recommendations. It recommends that the PPS look at:”
“Maolíosa McHugh referred to some isolated rural areas. I represent similar areas, so it would be useful to hear that data. Roving criminal gangs, some of which come up from the midlands, have been breaking into older people's houses in south Derry.”
“However, for crimes such as burglary, criminal damage, vehicle theft and violence without injury, there is a lower PSNI outcome rate for older people than there is for people in other age groups. That information is contained in the useful research provided to us by the Assembly's Research and Information Service. That needs to be looked at. <BR /> <BR />I will highlight some of the 24 recommendations in the Commissioner for Older People's report. It recommends:”
“I will try to be brief. Much of what I was going to say has been said, and I do not want to run the risk of repetition. Nevertheless, we have to pay reverence to the older people who have made a contribution, been here through good and bad times and deserve the right to live in peace in their home. The valuable work produced by the Commissioner for Older People is very useful to us. It provides a benchmark for how various organisations should be rolling out their projects and engaging better. <BR /> <BR />One thing that I would like to emphasise, lest it go out from here today that older people are more susceptible to crime than others, is the reality that older people are less likely to be the victims of crime. That reassurance and message must go out.”
“<BR /> <BR />We should be building a society that provides everyone with the security of a job and the dignity of a home. It is the communities that have been let down the most that are most at risk of paramilitary and criminal control. I therefore ask Members to support our amendment in an effort to deal with the insidious influence of these gangs. We are happy to hear that the Member has agreed to support our amendment.”
“Absolutely. It is vital that we have the truth. Without the truth, people will live with that sense of injustice. That, too, can be fed upon and perpetuated by these people, who tend to portray themselves, which is the only way to put it, as defenders of communities and the like. Without that sense of justice permeating society, those people, however misguided they may be, will still see a void to fill. <BR /> <BR />There is also a requirement to invest in communities that have yet to experience the peace dividend. It means ensuring that we have a regionally balanced economy that provides opportunity for everyone. It means levelling up our ambition for new housing. It means investing in the infrastructure needed to allow towns and cities across the North to flourish.”
“We need a whole-Executive approach to dealing with the causes of the poverty, deprivation and deep-seated inequalities that exist, particularly in working-class communities.”
“We cannot pretend that there is no correlation between those who have previously exercised coercive control over communities under the guise of armed struggle and those who now exercise the same form of control for profit. They have not gone away, you know. <BR /> <BR />It is important that every tool be available to bring those gangs to justice. This must be the beginning of a sustained assault on the infrastructure of criminal control that exists in far too many communities. We must acknowledge that this is not a matter for just the Justice Minister to tackle — I referred earlier to the likes of HMRC — nor will resource alone bring to an end the activities of those who prey on our communities and their insecurities or fears.”
“How many times have Members tried to encourage people to bring information to the police, only to be told that the dogs in the street know who is behind the drug dealing, punishment beatings or racketeering? That is because they live in big houses, drive flash cars and appear invulnerable to the law. Indeed, it is suggested that some of them are agents, and that must be put on record here too. <BR /> <BR />It is not unreasonable to suggest that those who have significant assets, with no immediate evidence of a means to support that and who are suspected of being implicated in serious criminal wrongdoing, should have to account for those assets.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will now turn to the terms of the amendment and, specifically, to the additional tools that the PSNI and the courts need to disrupt and dismantle criminal gangs. Members will be aware that the absence of a functioning Executive has led to a lag in the introduction of unexplained wealth orders here. I welcome the Justice Minister's comments that she intends to bring forward the necessary provisions to activate the implementation of those orders. It would be useful if she would — I am sure that she will, later on — outline a timetable for the introduction of the necessary regulations. <BR /> <BR />It is important for confidence in policing, and in our efforts to tackle paramilitaries and criminal gangs, that people see the relentless pursuit of those who have amassed significant assets as a result of criminality.”
“I will not dwell on that, but it is worth saying that when political messages on paramilitarism appear capricious, self-serving or, indeed, divided, it only compounds the working challenges for those who are trying to help communities to transition away from ingrained paramilitary interests. They thrive on division, and it must be our mission to stay close to each other when times are difficult. It must also be said that it would be easier to stay closer on those issues if these institutions were clearly able to allay the misgivings that have previously been expressed that programme money unduly follows paramilitary-related entities or that employment that derives from some community funding is unfairly given to those with proven paramilitary associations.”
“It is not enough to issue stale statements of condemnation when there is a security alert in our own constituencies. Recycling the same words and sentiments when it is close to home is just not enough. The truth is that a bomb in Derry or Belfast is as much of a threat to people who live in Mid Ulster, Newry or anywhere else as if it had been placed in one of our towns. We should see every vestige of paramilitary activity as an attack on all of us and respond as one community, united in our commitment to ending the coercive control of those gangs over our society. <BR /> <BR />It is easy to talk about unity in the House in March, removed from the context of difficult situations. Our commitment to tackling paramilitarism together is more often tested in the white heat of controversy in the summer months.”
“It is important that we do not allow our different approaches to this issue, or different emphases on approaches to it, or to the issue of legacy, to be interpreted as division on the core matter. There is no tolerance for those who set themselves against the direct wishes of our people for peace. As parties, we should have a coherent and consistent shared standard that recognises and rejects paramilitary interests. Our shared approach should be about rooting out paramilitarism in all its forms, not singling out particular groups or parties. A whole-community approach, which the SDLP has long called for, would send a powerful message to those whom we represent and to those who oppose these institutions. <BR /> <BR />That should present a challenge to us all as Members of the Assembly.”
“Every act of violence is a violation of the will of the people of this island, North and South. Your fight is with the people of Ireland, and that is a fight that you will never, ever win.”
“While parties here will disagree on the profile or the provenance of paramilitary gangs or, indeed, on the most appropriate operational response to their threat, it is important that we send a united message to those involved. Whoever you think that your struggle is against, whether it is republicanism or loyalism, apparently, Irish unity or the British state, allegedly: you are wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />Any plan to eradicate the influence of paramilitaries and criminal gangs must recognise that inequality and lack of opportunity are critical recruitment tools for those intent on ruining the lives of a new generation. If we want to stop them, we need to provide those communities with the opportunity for a better life. Indeed, that was touched on in the earlier debate around some of the domestic violence activities of individuals. I hope that the proposers of the motion take the amendment as a supportive supplement. <BR /> <BR />We cannot pretend that the recurring influence of paramilitaries is not a feature of this society that needs to be overcome. It is a fundamental part of the unfinished business of our peace process.”
“It is also designed to give a voice to those communities who have tried to break from the grip of paramilitarism but feel that, through the cycle of poverty, deprivation and inequality, the odds are stacked against them. <BR /> <BR />Paramilitarism involves murder, extortion, fuel laundering, cigarettes, drugs, organised crime, human trafficking and prostitution, to name but a few. Tackling those issues needs the involvement of the Organised Crime Task Force, along with HMRC. If Mr Bling, with no apparent means to his name, is sailing about in a BMW, with lots of gold dripping from him, it is not too hard to figure out that, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be an extortionist paramilitary.”
“Thank you for that. It is getting a wee bit late. <BR /> <BR />I thank the proposers of the motion for tabling the debate. The presence, prevalence and insidious influence of paramilitary gangs in our community should be a matter of immense concern for all Members. Their operation as organised paramilitary gangs is in opposition to our collective efforts to sustain peace and to deliver for the people whom we represent through exclusively peaceful means. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment is designed to be constructive and to build on the sentiment that the proposers have introduced here today by identifying some of the methods by which the new Executive can disrupt and dismantle paramilitary gangs. Those methods may not be exclusive to the Executive themselves.”
“You should have said, "You should've known better".”
“I thank the proposer of the motion for delivering —”
“In conclusion, we support the Sinn Féin amendment, given that it embraces that necessary cross-departmental and multi-agency approach to tackling some of the worst excesses of violence and domestic crime.”
“<BR /> <BR />Linda Dillon talked about the motion in her intervention, and I thank her for that. She spoke about the necessity for cross-departmental support and cross-departmental initiatives, which has been the common theme running through the debate. Indeed, it was referred to during the debate, including, I think, by the Minister, that it would be part of the Programme for Government. All the parties adhered to that position, so that might be useful. <BR />Mervyn Storey said that he was disappointed by some of the approaches being taken.”
“She cited a number of the Department's initiatives to help to try to tackle violent and antisocial behaviour. She referred to the substance misuse court and the fact that it and other pilot projects seem to be, at this stage, rendering some useful benefits in their progress, albeit that they are pilot projects. She responded on effective enforcement, referring to the Organised Crime Task Force and, again, a multi-agency approach to dealing with a number of these issues, including where the source of some of this criminal activity is organised crime. We will come to that topic later. She spoke about the importance of the assets recovery scheme and of drawing those assets to put them back into the community to help to support efforts to piece communities back together.”
“<BR /> <BR />Alan Chambers told his personal, harrowing story of violence. That would have been truly traumatic for any family to come through, and I hope that the proper support was provided to you and your family, Alan, at the time and since. <BR /> <BR />Claire Sugden referred to her experience at the Department and explained that, at the end of the day, the Department was expected to pick up the pieces. She spoke of the need for cross-departmental cooperation on mental health, education, sport and an anti-poverty strategy. The current Minister thanked her for her hard work during her time as Minister. <BR /> <BR />The Minister in her response referred to the need for cross-departmental initiatives, for those initiatives to support the vulnerable and for victims to get the necessary support.”
“He also talked about the effect of violent and abusive behaviour, justice for victims and the punishment fitting the crime. He also referred to the PCSPs, the PSNI and community and voluntary groups: again, a local policy that fits the needs of a local town. <BR /> <BR />Colin McGrath referred to people suffering in silence because of awful domestic abuse, both young and old, and the need for an anti-poverty strategy to help to tackle some of the root causes of violent and criminal behaviour. He also referred to investment, the recent announcement on local policing initiatives and the importance of local police knowing their local areas and the people in them. He also referred to the ability of young people to access alcohol, which leads on to drug use or drug abuse and antisocial behaviour.”
“Paul Frew referred back to the private Member's legislation. An important point concerned emergency personnel, doctors, nurses and others who may be subject to assaults while trying to care for people. <BR /> <BR />Martina Anderson referred to the incidence of violent crime, citing in particular her own city of Derry, where there has been a significant increase in the amount of problems associated with violent crime. She rightly referred to those problems and the lack of quality jobs, the heightened increases in poverty and urban deprivation and how that is associated with violent crime. <BR /> <BR />Gordon Dunne referred to the need for the voluntary sector and its involvement in particular schemes — he cited a number of schemes in Bangor.”
“Yes, there is that element of recidivism that comes about, and we hear of families where that is the case. Some have carried that family experience with them and inflicted it on others. In some of those families, that has, unfortunately, become accepted behaviour, which is an awful aspect of life in some households. <BR /> <BR />John Blair referred to increased collaboration, victims of crime and seeking solutions on an education-wide and cross-departmental basis. He also referred to the substance abuse courts and multi-agency triage. <BR /> <BR />Paul Frew referred to his previous efforts on domestic violence as well as the issues of one-punch attacks and drink-driving. He talked about the need to give support to victims. In an intervention, Jonny Buckley referred to domestic violence and the importance of doing the right thing.”
“He went on to refer to adverse childhood experiences and insights into the prison population and those coming from disadvantaged areas, and attendant issues such as self-harming and suicide, again bringing us back to mental health often being an underlying factor for people who wind up in prison. <BR /> <BR />Doug Beattie supported the motion and the amendments. He made reference to not forgetting victims, and I do not think that any of us would do that. Some people have come through awful traumas in their lives, and it would be totally immoral to forget those people and not provide support for them.”
“I suppose that many of us have cases that we can refer to in our own localities. While some are pretty traumatic for the families, those that stick out for us are especially the ones that involve children. We should not forget about those children; some very vicious cases have been before the courts. Trauma inflicted on a family could be on the wife, partner or husband, or it could be on those innocents lying in their cots. Reference was made to increased offences of drug misuse and alcohol abuse, which we all know instances of. <BR /> <BR />Pat Sheehan referred to the three-stranded approach, if we can call it that: the need for legislation, early intervention and rehabilitation. I thank him for being so concise in outlining that to us.”
“I am sure that all of us here have, through our offices, helped to support people and have seen the really good work that is carried out by those organisations — on many occasions, quietly and beneath the radar, but of vital importance. <BR /> <BR />Paul Givan explained the impact of violent crime. He said that it requires a wider response from society. He nodded in the direction of — we will support the Sinn Féin amendment — support for an extensive and cross-departmental approach to the issue. He referred to an increase in violent crime. All of us would like sentencing to match the level of the violent crime, but we have to look at some of the root causes of that as well, hence the need for a cross-departmental approach. He cited the evidence of trauma inflicted on a family.”
“I thank all of the Members who have contributed to the debate here today. It is very important. As my colleague Dolores Kelly said at the start, it is imperative to answer the Members across the Chamber by saying that we have a cross-departmental approach to these issues. She cited school failures and mental health, which draw in education, health, housing, youth services and, as was mentioned during the debate, anti-poverty strategies to try to tackle some of the root causes associated with violence of that scale. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to — it has been mentioned somewhat — the likes of Women's Aid and Nexus, which are very often at the forefront of providing help and assistance to those most affected through some of the most vulnerable and difficult times of their lives.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does she accept that, without the necessary investment, particularly in our sewerage infrastructure, key elements such as housing, affordable housing, economic and industrial development, and, equally, councils' local development plans could be rendered nothing more than academic exercises?”
“Many answers have already been forthcoming, so I ask the Minister to bear with me and give me some latitude. Is the Minister prepared to review sentencing for the offence of death by dangerous driving?”
“Does the Minister agree that the changes to the guidance of the office of Attorney General need to be reviewed to ensure that there is no potential for conflict or, indeed, any influence, political or otherwise, on the scope, role or work of that office?”
“You have kindly outlined the connections that you have had with Ministers in other regions on the issue. Will you advise me, please, whether any mechanism has been established whereby there can be progress updates on how the withdrawal agreement is moving along — those negotiations with the EU — and on whether there might be a trade deal before the end of the year? What is the mechanism for that, if one has been established with the various regions?”
“While we are cautious somewhat about tying the hands of the judiciary when it comes to sentencing, the SDLP recognises that there are circumstances where it is appropriate for the Assembly to intervene when sentencing patterns are seen to be unduly light. I would welcome the Minister of Justice's assessment of current sentencing patterns for those who commit violence against animals and outline whether she has any plans to review that area. <BR /> <BR />I conclude by thanking again the proposers of the motion and encouraging Members present to support the proposals.”
“I note that the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs made specific comments on our proposal to introduce an all-island animal cruelty register at Question Time last week. I wonder whether the Justice Minister — I will put it on the record for her — will also give us her assessment of the need for a central register of those who commit crimes against animals across these islands in order to ensure that they are not able to access rehoming services in the future. I know that a number of animal charities would welcome movement on that particular issue. <BR /> <BR />It is worth noting, too, that the British Government have signalled their intention to advance beyond the original Finn's law and campaign to increase sentencing for offenders who commit violence against animals, particularly service animals.”
“It demeans the contribution that they make to our emergency services, and does a disservice to the special place that animals hold in the life of the island. We are known across the world as an island that cares deeply for animals. It should be a goal of the Assembly to ensure that we are also known as a society that legislates for the care and protection of animals. My party will support the motion, and we will support efforts by the Justice Minister to legislate for the protection of service animals. <BR /> <BR />It has also been a long campaign of the SDLP to introduce additional protections for all animals, whether they are engaged in emergency service work or not.”
“I begin by thanking the Member for bringing the motion to the Assembly. It is important that, just as we thank those members of the emergency services for the selfless work that they do every day to keep us all safe, we also acknowledge the immense contribution that service animals make. The proposer of the motion has already given us an overview of the background to the Finn's law proposal and the circumstances of the severe attack on a police dog in the line of duty. It struck a chord with me that, in the aftermath of the attack, the only law that could be enforced against the assailant was that of criminal damage. <BR /> <BR />It cannot be right that we degrade those animals to the status of personal chattels or objects like a phone or car.”
“What discussions has the First Minister's Department had with the Irish Government in relation to the provision of regional trauma centres to address the legacy of the conflict across the entire island?”
“Very briefly, on that point, as part of all that, we live and represent areas and communities where many other EU nationals live and work, and, in recognition of that very positive contribution to our society in our schools, our workplaces and all that, it is crucial that the rights and protections of those citizens be inserted into and enshrined in legislation too.”
“Comhghairdeachas leis an Aire. I congratulate the Minister on his appointment, and I look forward to dealing with him on a few issues, locally and more regionally . Of course, among the issues are workforce issues, many of which have already been dealt with in some detail here, but particularly those relating to district nursing and health visitors. Will the Minister look at those? We have heard so much today about the difficulties that forced staff to take industrial action. Will the Minister, as a gesture of goodwill, instruct health chiefs not to dock the pay of those staff, many of whom are in difficult financial circumstances? It would be a substantial and significant goodwill gesture on behalf of the Department.”
“We have heard some degree of detail around the commencement date, but — perhaps you would wish to write to me about this, Minister — could you provide me with details of the works that have now been approved for it and the level of financial commitment to those works as well, please?”