Mervyn Storey
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. It will be noted that there are those who cry much about the environment and purport to be the champions of the environment who did not have the courtesy to come to the House and be present when the statement was being made.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Clearly, there are some in the House who want to continue with the same old, same old and get the same outcomes at a huge cost to the public purse and to farms in Northern Ireland. The Minister is absolutely right: it is a scourge.”
“I am sure that the Minister will be aware, having listened to the Member who spoke before me, that the farmers of North Antrim will make an informed choice about who best supported farmers during this mandate of the Assembly.”
“A pilot scheme has been operating with the Education Authority, the PSNI and the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust across 60 schools in the south Down area since September 2021 and was extended to a further 77 schools in the Newry and south Armagh areas at the start of February 2022.”
“As Chair of the Justice Committee, I am pleased to welcome the motion. It implements the provisions taken forward by the Committee in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021 to establish an Operation Encompass model in Northern Ireland, which is, as the Minister has outlined, a police and early intervention pa…”
“We had our final meeting of that Committee this morning, and I want to place on the public record our appreciation and thanks to our Committee staff of for all the work that they have done.”
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“The figures in this Budget are relevant to the services that we deliver. I also want the focus over the next few weeks to be on ensuring that we return to this House people who have the best interests of Northern Ireland, within the United Kingdom, at heart. <BR /> <BR />I turn now to the Member's comments on what the Chair said about the annual Budget process. We already have an annual Budget process, whereby the Assembly votes on the Budget Bill. Even in the context of the Fresh Start Agreement, that does not preclude the Executive from setting a multi-year Budget. I know that the Member thinks that I was employed by DWP, and now, to a lesser degree or whatever, he thinks that I am employed by Her Majesty's Treasury. I reiterate that I have no concerns about dealing with the Treasury.”
“Therefore, the vast amount of money that comes into Northern Ireland — the money that pays for our health service, our education and our roads and that ensures that we have the delivery of services, day and daily — comes from our Exchequer at Westminster. Let us remember, however, that were we not in Europe, the Chancellor would have somewhere in the region of an additional £18 billion to £20 billion. You do not have to be a financial wizard to figure out that there would be a benefit if we were to have a share of the money that is going to the European Union daily. <BR /> <BR />Members have heard me say this before in the House. The debate that we are going to have, and this will be a debate that we will encounter more in the days that lie ahead, has to be based on facts, relevant figures and the reality of the situation.”
“I have no difficulty dealing with our sovereign Parliament at Westminster. The Member may be surprised to hear it, but it is the truth and a fact that I am a unionist. It is because we are part of the United Kingdom and the Union that we have the benefits that come to Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The Member referred to page after page in the Budget Bill that refer to money that has come from Europe. If you look at the overall figure — it is only indicative; it is not definitive — for what we get from our sovereign Parliament at Westminster and then what we receive from Europe, you will see that it is equivalent only to something like 3%.”
“Let us be very clear. If we stay where we are with the deal that is on the table, we will not be able to regain control of our borders; we will not be able to regain control of our money; and we will not be able to regain control of our laws. I do not think that we could be any clearer on our position. However, the issue will be decided by the people of the United Kingdom. It will be decided by a referendum. It is not an election but a referendum. The DUP had hoped to see fundamental changes in that relationship, but there is nothing in the deal that changes our outlook. The people of the United Kingdom and the people of Northern Ireland will, ultimately, determine what their views are in the referendum. <BR /> <BR />That leads me to his second point. He raised concerns in relation to Westminster.”
“Where has he been in the last few days? My party leader made that very clear, unlike others who have not decided, are going to decide or will see what way the wind is blowing when they think that it may be politically advantageous. It has been made abundantly clear where the DUP stands by the leader of my party. I have no difficulty supporting my leader on that or any other issue. It is probably an uncommon trait for Members to support their leader, given the shenanigans that sometimes go on in other parties in the House. <BR /> <BR />In case the Member missed it, let me rehearse what my party leader said:”
“He is well aware of the comments that I have made about the progress that we want to make on the review of the Budget process, and I am keen to bring that work forward in the time that is available to us. <BR /> <BR />I now turn to the comments that were made by Mr Attwood. I preface what I say — he knows that this is the case — by commenting that, while we may have our political differences and disagreements — the same goes for other parties in the House — that does not change the fact that we want to have an engagement and genuinely respond to the issues that he raised. However, I have to say that I find it somewhat challenging to be brought to task in the House by the Member to explain two things. First, he wants me to categorically state where I stand in relation to the ongoing debate about Europe.”
“If we are going to have a debate and if we are going to be engaged in politics, let us do it, at least, on the basis of accuracy and telling it as it is and not on the basis of putting a spin on it to give the impression that somehow some parties are more over these issues than others. <BR /> <BR />Let me turn to the issues that were raised by Members. The Chair again referred to the memorandum of understanding. I have reiterated in the House — I repeat it again — that we continue to work with my officials to progress that work. I want to see progress being made on it. I welcome the Chair's comments about the review of the Budget process. That issue has been covered. I appreciate the comments, as always, that were made by Mr Cree on those issues.”
“To be clear, as set out in my letter to the Executive, that cash advance does not constitute — let me underscore this in case the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party does not get it — an increase in OFMDFM's budget. It is simply a timing issue. <BR /> <BR />As Members will be aware, OFMDFM's spring Supplementary Estimate included an increase in the Department's net cash requirement of £25·7 million. Due to the timing of cash payments, up to £20 million of that cash was required in advance of the Budget Bill 2016 being given Royal Assent, at which point the advance will be repaid. In fact, I will recall for the House and for Members that it is not an unusual occurrence; indeed, Members will remember that, in November 2015, a cash advance was required from my Department.”
“Thank you for those comments, Mr Deputy Speaker. I refer to the Member for South Antrim: I will take my seat in the House when ordered to do so by the Speaker and not by a Member from a sedentary position. If any Members want to make comments, they should remember that I am big enough and have been in the House long enough to be dealt with in a respectful manner. <BR /> <BR />Let me go back to the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, who made a comment this week in relation to the OFMDFM cash advance. He claimed that somehow it was irregular. Let me put it very clearly on the record that I notified Members on 15 February that I had approved a request from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an advance from the Consolidated Fund of up to £20 million.”
“No, I will not give way. I will not give way to the leader of a party who earlier this week put out information that was totally and absolutely —”
“I have to say that there are times when the Ulster Unionist Party discredits itself.”
“I thank the Member. Obviously, some parties have already decided, before a vote is cast in the Assembly elections, that they will be in opposition, so they do not have much political aspiration anyway. When I go to the polls later this year, it will be with one very clear objective, which is to ensure that my party returns as a party of government and as one that will continue to give leadership in Northern Ireland. I do not want to play second-rate politics, and I do not want to be engaged in going with a confused message like "Are we in or are we out? Are we going to be in opposition?".”
“I trust that when they do that, they will do it with factual evidence and will not make some of the spurious comments on budget allocations that have been made recently and even in the House tonight to try to give a particular view and cover to themselves that somehow they are above all the bad decisions that they think have been made.”
“The Member who spoke previously alluded to the fact that there are some who will take advantage of the benefits but will also take advantage of being able to be critical when it suits their political agenda. That is, unfortunately, the way of politics. That is the way things are.”
“I am sure that there are many watching this — not people in their homes but Members in the Building — who are delighted that I have now risen to my feet at 7.15 pm. There is no guarantee of what time I will sit down at. That will probably dispel all those myths. <BR /> <BR />In all seriousness, I want to say a word of appreciation and thanks to Members who have expressed their views in the debate this evening. Yes, we will have different views, but I have a responsibility in DFP as the Minister of Finance to do what is a challenging task in a very challenging fiscal environment. It is all about the choices that we make, and ultimately, we collectively will live with the choices that we make.”
“The exit scheme, which is the way in which we are trying to rebalance the number of people employed in public sector in Northern Ireland, and the way that we have dealt with difficult financial issues are all part of it. <BR /> <BR />The Member is trying to say is that there is a lot more that we will have to start doing to measure up to what London is looking for from us. We have already started that process and are some way down that road. We will come back to this later, but, given the considerable amount of money that comes from London to ensure that Northern Ireland has a Budget, I have no difficulties with the sovereign Parliament at Westminster having some say in what happens in this part of the United Kingdom.”
“I will come back to the earlier points, but I just want to come in on that point. I do not really know where the Member has been for the last number of weeks. Look at what we are doing: we are approving in the House tonight what is a balanced Budget. Months ago, people told us that we would not be able to get that. It is absolutely right for Her Majesty's Treasury and the sovereign Parliament at Westminster to have discussions with us and to put elements into the Fresh Start Agreement and into legislation that has gone and is going through the House of Commons that says, "These are the ways in which these measures will be delivered".”
“<BR /> <BR />Over recent weeks, I have announced my intention to support an additional £40 million for skills in the forthcoming June monitoring round. The intention is that the Department of Education and the new economy Department should receive £20 million each to invest in skills. That will boost our competitiveness and help to ensure that we have the required level of skilled workers to take advantage of the lower rate of corporation tax. <BR /> <BR />To conclude, this is the final stage in our financial legislative process for 2015-16, and the legislation has already been subject to much debate. I now look forward to hearing any final thoughts from Members on this important piece of legislation.”
“During this financial year, we also embarked on an unprecedented programme — the voluntary exit scheme — across the public sector. The ambition and scale of that undertaking are huge, and it will be critically important that it is managed and managed carefully. We clearly need to realise the projected savings, but we also need to ensure that we can continue to deliver the high-quality services that the people of Northern Ireland rightly deserve. <BR /> <BR />We also confirmed our intention to reduce our rate of corporation tax to 12·5% from April 2018. The Fresh Start Agreement has provided a further impetus to that commitment, and we need to maximise the potential benefits from that significant economic lever.”
“I do not want to be disparaging of those who make valuable contributions and raise particular concerns that they have across the piece on our finances. However, we started 2016 in a more stable financial environment than many envisaged would have been the case, given where we came from in 2015. <BR /> <BR />That stable environment led to the agreement by the Executive and the Assembly of a balanced Budget for 2016-17. That was against the backdrop of not only a highly challenging public expenditure environment next year but an extremely tight timetable set out in the Fresh Start Agreement.”
“As has also been the subject of much comment over the course of the debate, the 2016-17 Vote on Account had to be adjusted due to the departmental restructuring to nine Departments by May 2016. Whilst that restructuring poses significant challenges, I believe that, with this Bill, we have done all that we can to mitigate the risk that Departments would run out of money or resource cover before the Main Estimates and the Budget Bill receive Royal Assent in the summer. <BR /> <BR />As this financial year draws to a close, now is an opportune time to reflect on another challenging year. However, with the Fresh Start Agreement, we have paved the way for what I believe is a stable financial environment, despite those who have raised what they see as genuine concerns and issues.”
“In fact, the Finance and Personnel Committee Chair confirmed that there has, in the Committee's view, been sufficient consultation with it on the Budget Bill, and I thank him and his colleagues again for their work. <BR /> <BR />The debate to date has been informative, and I welcome the opportunity that Members had to have their say on this important legislation. I also thank the departmental Committees for the level of scrutiny that they have brought to the process. I hope that it is now completely clear to everyone that this Budget Bill not only covers the 2015-16 financial year but provides legal authority for Departments to spend in the first few months of 2016-17.”
“Today's Final Stage debate concludes the financial legislative process for the 2015-16 year. To those who say that there has not been enough opportunity to debate the Budget Bill, I point out that the Bill before us has been the subject of much debate over recent weeks. However, I suspect that that will not stop some from making further comment on the Bill this evening. The debate has, in fact, probably strayed much wider than the parameters of the Budget Bill itself. I also point out that the Bill reflects the 2015-16 Budget, which itself was the subject of a debate in this Assembly and subject to wider public consultation. It also reflects the additional changes in year that have been the subject of scrutiny not just by the Committee for Finance and Personnel but all the other departmental Committees.”
“<BR /> <BR />I therefore commend the order to the Assembly and thank Members for their support.”
“I thank the Chair and Committee again for the work that they have done on this issue and on the items that we have brought to the Floor of the Assembly this evening. <BR /> <BR />As I have already stated, the Rates (Regional Rates) Order (Northern Ireland) 2016 gives effect to decisions made as part of the 2016-17 Budget. The Executive have aimed to strike a balance between meeting the needs of ratepayers, following the challenging economic times that we have been through, and ensuring that public finances are sufficient to cover the priorities that we have set ourselves. No one likes to have to pay more, but the minimal increase in the regional rates will be welcomed by households and businesses alike. It clearly demonstrates that all ratepayers have benefited from the decisions taken by the Executive.”
“Article 1 sets out the title of the order and gives the operational date as the day after it is affirmed by the Assembly. Article 2 provides that the order will apply for the 2016-17 rating year through to 31 March 2017. Article 3 specifies 32·40 pence in the pound as the commercial regional poundage, and 0·4111 pence in the pound as the domestic regional rate poundage. That represents a clear and technical outworking of the difficult decisions made by the Executive as part of the Budget agreement. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to hearing the comments that Members make in relation to the order, and I commend it to the Assembly.”
“All of this carries a real cost. Every pound forgone in rates is a pound less for public expenditure, but it is the right approach in my view. <BR /> <BR />This order — alongside the extension of the small business rate relief (SBRR), industrial derating, the empty shops rates concession, the retention of relief for rural ATMs, all brought forward this year by my Department and the Executive through the Budget, as well as the continuation of the district rates convergence scheme — represents the best that we can do to balance the interests of ratepayers and the demands of public expenditure. <BR /> <BR />Allow me to move on, then, in more technical terms, to what is covered in the order. Its main purpose is to give effect to the decisions already made during the Budget 2016-17.”
“The first of these is the £30 million that the Executive set aside last year to fully fund the district rates convergence scheme to help the many ratepayers who otherwise would have been badly affected by local government reorganisation. The second is the cost of the housing benefit rates, or the rate rebate, which is now funded out of our departmental expenditure limit (DEL), but with a 10% cut. That carries a price tag of £11 million this year, and rising next year. <BR /> <BR />Finally, it is worth noting that the Executive delivered on their promise last year to make the revaluation a genuinely revenue-neutral exercise for this Assembly by actually reducing the non-domestic regional rate by a couple of pence, which was not reciprocated by local government when the various district rates were struck last year.”
“<BR /> <BR />The new rates in the pound represent a small increase of 1·7% in the regional rate for the 2016-17 rating year both for households and businesses. This continues the inflation-capping practice adopted each year by this Assembly since 2007. A few of the Members may remember the whopping 19% increase in the domestic regional rate imposed by direct rule Ministers in their last year in office. We continue to do this in very difficult times for our public finances. <BR /> <BR />Keeping the lid on rate increases is something else that we can be proud of, but it is not something that is appreciated by everyone. Indeed, inflation capping comes on top of other mitigating measures adopted by this Executive to protect businesses and households. This includes two multi-million-pound shortfalls that we are absorbing.”
“Such news only stiffens the resolve of my Executive colleagues to do whatever we can to make sure that the conditions for economic recovery and growth are in place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The real-terms freeze in the regional rate is adjusted at the time of the Executive’s Budget for the effect of inflation, in line with the long-established measure used. This is the Treasury gross domestic product (GDP) deflator, as used more widely within the 2016-17 Budget. The legislation before you this evening for approval is simply the mathematical outworking of that important Budget decision. It will fix two regional rates in the pound for 2016-17, one for households and the other for business ratepayers.”
“Taken together, the domestic and commercial regional rate is forecast, as part of the Budget, to raise in the region of £678 million in the forthcoming financial year. <BR /> <BR />In terms of the specific breakdown of rates bills, the regional rate represents just over half of the typical bill, the other half being made up of the district rates, which were set independently by the new local councils. The district rates this year range from a 0·49% cut to a 2·98% increase. Household bills remain the lowest, by some considerable margin, in the UK. The economic outlook is continuing to improve. However, many challenges lie ahead, as we are all too aware from last week’s disheartening news about Bombardier.”
“As Members will be aware, this order, which is brought forward annually, stems from the Executive’s Budget, which was agreed on 26 January. The regional rate helps to supplement Northern Ireland’s share of national taxation allocated through the Barnett formula for public expenditure. As members will know, it provides a supplement to our share of national taxation through Barnett of between 5% and 6%, helping to fund departmental expenditure on hospitals, roads, schools and other essential public services and investment. The rating system provides significant revenue for Northern Ireland, with well over £1 billion now collected in rates — regional and district, domestic and non-domestic.”
“I thank the Committee Chair and members for their help on the order. I ask Members to support the measure, and I commend the order to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I look forward to Members' comments and I commend the Rates (Temporary Rebate) (Amendment) Order (Northern Ireland) 2016 to the House.”
“This policy was made and developed in Northern Ireland through engagement with business and was deemed effective enough to be adopted in every other part of the United Kingdom. That in itself is a testament to the strengths behind the policy logic for such a scheme at this time. <BR /> <BR />My Executive colleagues and members of the Finance and Personnel Committee have already been advised on the detail of the statutory rule. The Committee indicated that it was content for applications to be received for the empty shops rates concession until 31 March 2017. Article 1 of the order sets out the citation and commencement. Article 2 provides for the amendment of article 31D of the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order 1977, substituting the new end date of 31 March 2017.”
“The scheme is open to all commercial uses and has, as a result, provided new jobs for local people in a wide range of businesses. This is a policy that makes a real difference to new business start-ups, particularly in our town centres and on our arterial routes. Furthermore, it is a sensible measure in terms of cost. In all likelihood, the Executive would not have been getting any more revenue from these units through rates if they had continued to be empty, so this is, effectively, a cost-neutral policy. <BR /> <BR />Beyond that, after an initial period of reduced liability, these businesses will end up paying full rates after the difficult first year of trading is over. In the longer term, it is likely to bring in more money than it costs.”
“This is a good news story, although I am not claiming that the scheme is the reason that things have improved. That needs a stronger economy and action by many parts of the Executive. There is still a need for a scheme of this type, and I say that informed by responses to the recent consultation on the review of the rating system; indeed, some have asked for it to be enhanced by relaxing the rules. My Department will consider that in due course. In doing so, we must balance the interests of established businesses in an area and avoid this becoming a rates avoidance mechanism. <BR /> <BR />In the coming weeks, my Department will do what it can to publicise the current scheme with those involved in letting or moving into property.”
“<BR /> <BR />Where outcomes are concerned, I have to say that my assessment is that the scheme is a good scheme. So far, it has seen over 530 new ventures get up and running across Northern Ireland, and that is to be welcomed by all Members. A recent survey by Springboard Services on behalf of the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium shows that vacancy rates in Northern Ireland are at a four-year low. However, we cannot be complacent about the issue; I know all too well from my constituency and my home town of the difficulties and challenges that are caused by the issue of vacancies.”
“<BR /> <BR />The current legislative provision under article 31D of the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order 1977 as inserted by the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 permits applications for the concession until 31 March 2016. The window for applications will close soon, and, following the success of this scheme, I have decided to extend the application period for a further 12 months to 31 March 2017. Unfortunately, there remains a need to provide whatever assistance we can to counteract the many shop closures and the effect that then has on the viability of our towns and cities. The extension of the concession will allow Land and Property Services (LPS) to continue to receive applications for the scheme until the end of the forthcoming financial year.”
“Before dealing with the statutory rule, I will set out some background to the measure. The purpose of the legislation is to extend the empty shops rates concession. It was introduced in April 2012 and subsequently extended for a further two years in April 2013 and again for a further year in April 2015. The concession was first introduced as an amendment to the Rates (Amendment) Bill of 2012. At that time, a package of measures was introduced to help rebalance the rating system, assist ailing businesses and improve the appearance of our town and city centres. The empty shops rates concession provides a one-year subsidy for new ventures occupying properties that have been vacant for a year or more.”
“Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the Chair of the Committee and the member of the Committee for their comments. In particular, I thank the Committee for its help on the order. I, therefore, ask that Members support the measure and commend the order to the Assembly.”
“Article 1 sets out the citation, commencement and interpretation provisions. Article 2 provides for the extension of the relevant date before which the scheme must end, which is the end of the forthcoming financial year. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to Members' comments and commend the Rates (Exemption for Automatic Telling Machines in Rural Areas) Order (Northern Ireland) 2016 to the House.”
“The list of the new rural wards for the purposes of the scheme was arrived at by NISRA on the basis of the specifications given by the rating policy division and through analysis of the 2011 census, the 2015 settlement definition and the 2014 ward boundary files. The rural wards are designated through subordinate legislation that is subject to the negative resolution procedure, and the Committee cleared that policy. <BR /> <BR />My Executive colleagues and members of the Finance and Personnel Committee have already been advised on the detail of the statutory rule. The Committee indicated that it was content for individual separately valued ATMs in designated rural areas to continue to be exempt from rates, particularly given the modest cost of the scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />The eligible rural wards are currently designated by my Department through the Rates (Automatic Telling Machines) (Designation of Rural Areas) Order (Northern Ireland) 2006. The recent reorganisation of local government that came into operation last year altered both district council and ward boundaries in Northern Ireland, and, as a result of that process, it was necessary for my Department to formally designate new rural wards for use in the scheme. New multipurpose and cross-departmental rural, urban and mixed wards have not yet been centrally redesignated by DARD or by any interdepartmental working group. It was, therefore, necessary for my Department to ask the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) to conduct specific analysis to meet our specifications to determine wards as rural.”
“The exemption is provided for stand-alone ATMs in designated rural areas that are individually valued in the valuation list; for example, those located outside petrol stations or on high streets. It does not apply to those located in banks or building societies, which tend to be valued as part of that property. The current financial cost of the scheme is around £150,000 in revenue forgone in 2016-17, which I consider to be an affordable and modest sum given the benefits that it can bring. ATMs play an important role in the sustainability of rural economies; indeed, previous evaluations of the scheme have demonstrated that almost two thirds of every £10 withdrawn from one of the cash machines is likely to be spent locally.”
“First, evaluations have shown that, whilst the scheme is not a factor that encourages financial institutions to invest in new stand-alone ATMs, it is a factor in retaining existing ones, particularly those that are borderline viable. Secondly, despite the first assertion, the number of ATMs in rural areas has more than doubled in the eight years since the scheme started. Thirdly, in the context of the loss of many of our rural bank branches, the ATMs become even more of a lifeline for our rural communities, an issue that I know was raised during last week's Finance Committee session. <BR /> <BR />It will be helpful to Members if I provide them with a brief outline of what the scheme does.”
“The scheme was initially introduced in 2007 for a fixed period of three years with the objective of encouraging and sustaining the provision of ATMs in rural areas. It has been extended three times following evaluation. The latest order provides for a further one-year extension for the 2016-17 Budget period until the end of March 2017. It is not a big policy, but, next year, it is expected to provide rates exemption to 82 ATMs that would otherwise be liable for a separate rates bill of slightly less than £2,000 a year. <BR /> <BR />Although it is hard to assess its effectiveness as a measure, there are three good policy reasons for its continuation.”
“I do not have the specific figures with me, but I will quite happily provide them to the Member. What I will say is that we have endeavoured to address the issue in a number of ways. One way in particular has been to look at how we can encourage further and higher education to focus on skills, and I committed an additional £20 million to ensuring that the issue of skills is looked at. We need to continue to work with our education system and other government agencies in a very coordinated way to address the very challenging situation that is the overall figure for young people who are in neither full-time employment nor training. We have to address that problem. Some steps have been taken, but more progress needs to be made.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Unemployment figures are always a challenge for all of us in the House. We all have to realise that it is a challenge, and none of us knows the intention of organisations or companies in the employment market. Many factors are brought to bear on that issue. I recognise that North Belfast is an area where there are particular economic and social challenges, but the number of individuals claiming unemployment benefit in North Belfast peaked at over 5,700 in February 2013. However, over the last three years, there have been steady improvements in the local labour market, with the number of individuals claiming unemployment benefit there cut by almost half by the end of 2015, which is down some 42%. I welcome that positive progress. However, we need to remain focused and vigilant on that issue.”
“This will only be administered through the way that it has been set up nationally, which is through the Big Lottery, but we will have a third party, and I believe that that will give confidence to many organisations that they will now have additional access to a funding stream that, in the past, they might have felt they could not access.”