Mervyn Storey
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. It will be noted that there are those who cry much about the environment and purport to be the champions of the environment who did not have the courtesy to come to the House and be present when the statement was being made.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Clearly, there are some in the House who want to continue with the same old, same old and get the same outcomes at a huge cost to the public purse and to farms in Northern Ireland. The Minister is absolutely right: it is a scourge.”
“I am sure that the Minister will be aware, having listened to the Member who spoke before me, that the farmers of North Antrim will make an informed choice about who best supported farmers during this mandate of the Assembly.”
“A pilot scheme has been operating with the Education Authority, the PSNI and the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust across 60 schools in the south Down area since September 2021 and was extended to a further 77 schools in the Newry and south Armagh areas at the start of February 2022.”
“As Chair of the Justice Committee, I am pleased to welcome the motion. It implements the provisions taken forward by the Committee in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021 to establish an Operation Encompass model in Northern Ireland, which is, as the Minister has outlined, a police and early intervention pa…”
“We had our final meeting of that Committee this morning, and I want to place on the public record our appreciation and thanks to our Committee staff of for all the work that they have done.”
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“<BR /> <BR />There will be some circumstances in which shorter sanctions may apply; for example, when a claimant leaves a job voluntarily a week before his or her contract ends and then claims universal credit, but I suspect that such cases will be the exception. <BR /> <BR />I wonder if it might be helpful if I provided an example of how escalation up the higher-level sanctions ladder might work in practice. If a claimant refuses to participate in the Steps 2 Success programme and cannot show good reason, he will receive a three-month sanction. If, four months later, he is asked to apply for a job and refuses to do so, he will — again, so long as there is no good reason — be sanctioned for six months.”
“<BR /> <BR />Those failures clearly damage a claimant’s employment prospects, and it is only right that we have a sanctions system that effectively deters such behaviour. The amount of sanction will be set in regulations. We intend to set a sanctionable amount that is broadly in line with existing jobseeker’s allowance arrangements. The sanction periods will also be set in regulations. We expect those to be three months for a first failure, six months for a second and 18 months for the third and subsequent failures only. As an 18-month sanction will only ever be imposed where claimants fail to meet their most important requirements on at least three separate occasions, we expect it to be applied to very few.”
“Claimants are not always clear about the consequences if they fail to meet their requirements. We want to create a clearer, stronger system that is easily understood by claimants and acts as a more effective deterrent to non-compliance. <BR /> <BR />The clause as drafted provides for sanctions of up to three years for the most serious failures. Those are: failing to apply for a vacancy; failing to accept an offer of work; failing to take part in certain work-placement schemes, such as work experience and mandatory work activity; and losing pay or employment voluntarily or by reason of misconduct. However, as a result of concerns raised by the Social Development Committee and others, I tabled an amendment to restrict the maximum sanction to 18 months.”
“Amendment No 14 addresses the issue of higher-level sanctions as set out in clause 26. The clause provides for financial sanctions to be applied to those claimants who are subject to all work-related requirements and, without good reason, fail to meet their most important responsibilities. Most people want to find work and will never be in the position of facing a sanction. The vast majority of claimants comply with requirements. However, for a small minority of claimants who shirk their personal responsibilities — a minority that has no regard for their obligations — we need an effective sanctions system that encourages responsibility and deters non-compliance. <BR /> <BR />Currently, sanctions, especially for the most serious failures, are set at a low level.”
“I draw my remarks on the group 2 amendments to a conclusion.”
“Members will understand and appreciate that that is the issue. Without that provision in the Bill, the Department would be unable to check if an EU national with work status met the right-to-reside test. Accepting amendment No 75 would be a clear breach of parity. There would be potential implications for the Northern Ireland block grant, and it would result in EU claimants in Northern Ireland being subject to preferential treatment in comparison with EU claimants in Great Britain. <BR /> <BR />I have tried to cover most of the issues raised by Members. Mr Lyttle, who is not in his place, raised the issue of victims and survivors. I trust that, at some length in the House yesterday, I gave reassurances on that. The Member, when he hears of this being referred to in the debate, will be able to find my comments on the issue in Hansard.”
“That is because universal credit is treated as a social assistance and is not payable to EU nationals without a right to reside. <BR /> <BR />The crucial point is that we are only exercising the power to enable us to check whether an EU claimant continues to enjoy a right to reside as a jobseeker. Without the power to verify whether a claimant is seeking work, we would be unable to verify whether they continue to have a right to reside under EU law. While we have a legal duty to provide support to people who come to Northern Ireland in line with national and international obligations, it is also necessary to protect the taxpayer and the benefit system. There is a need to make sure that the rules that apply when people from outside come here do not allow them to take inappropriate advantage of the benefit system.”
“<BR /> <BR />Although the power under paragraph 7 is quite wide, we only wish to exercise it in relation to EU jobseekers. We do not intend to exercise the power in relation to EU self-employed, and, in relation to EU workers, we only intend to exercise it in relation to those who retain worker status because they become involuntarily unemployed and therefore need to seek employment to continue to retain their worker status. The regulations will enable us to check that an EU jobseeker is, in fact, searching for work and available for work and that they therefore continue to meet the right-to-reside test. If someone claims to be an EU jobseeker without actually searching for work, they will no longer satisfy the right-to-reside test. An EU claimant who does not have the right to reside will not be eligible for universal credit.”
“Those who have a right of residence after the initial three-month period include workers or self-employed persons and their families and students and their families, provided that they can support themselves. EU nationals may also have a right to reside straight away as a jobseeker if they can show that they are looking for work and have a genuine chance of being engaged. Family members of jobseekers also have a right to reside. To have a right to reside as a jobseeker, a person needs to be registered with the jobs and benefits office/social security office and sign on as available for and seeking work. A person with a right to reside as a jobseeker may claim income-related jobseeker's allowance, which can give them entitlement to housing benefit.”
“Broadly speaking, a person who moves from one EU country to another has a right to reside if they are economically active or are able to support themselves. That means that not all EU nationals will have a right to reside even though they can exercise free movement rights, such as migrants moving from one country to another claiming benefits. Only certain categories of person moving within the EU will have certain guaranteed rights attached to their residence in the host country. That is what is meant by EU nationals having a right to reside. <BR /> <BR />Since 2006, all EU nationals have had a right to reside in the UK for three months without the requirement to be financially self-sufficient. However, access to benefits during that three-month period will not satisfy the right-to-reside test.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 75 removes paragraph 7 of schedule 1. The paragraph gives the Department the power to make regulations specifying the work-related requirements for claimants who are asserting a right to reside in the United Kingdom on the basis that they are EU jobseekers under EU treaties. By way of background, I should explain that people coming to the United Kingdom from EU countries do not have unrestricted access to UK social security benefits and tax credits. Since 2004, access to most benefits for EU nationals has depended on whether they have a right to reside here, and, for most benefits, the right-to-reside requirement is part of the habitual residence test. <BR /> <BR />Having a right to reside does not simply mean that a person can live in a particular country.”
“This is one start-up period for self-employment of 12 months every five years where the claimant has ceased the previous activity and started a new business. Further, when we migrate people to universal credit who are already running their own business, we will provide a similar six-month grace period before they need to make any adjustments under universal credit. <BR /> <BR />If amendment No 73 were accepted, it would mean that there would be no incentive for those who are self-employed on a low income to increase their earnings through developing their self-employment. The minimum income floor will assume a level of income for the self-employed based on the earnings that we expect a claimant with similar circumstances in employment to achieve. For these reasons, I urge Members to reject amendment No 73.”
“For example, the minimum income floor for claimants expected to be able to work full-time will be equivalent to 35 hours per week at the national minimum wage. <BR /> <BR />It is right that universal credit should support people to be self-employed, but only in so far as self-employment is the best route for them to become financially self-sufficient. If claimants are within one year of starting out in self-employed activity, they will be eligible for a start-up period. This will mean that newly self-employed claimants will be exempt from reaching the minimum income floor for a period of one year, and their universal credit payments will be calculated according to their actual income rather than assumed income.”
“Universal credit will provide support for people who are self-employed only where self-employment is the best route for them to become financially self-sufficient. A safeguard is being built in so that universal credit does not end up subsidising people undertaking unprofitable activities. The safeguard will be in the form of a minimum income floor. <BR /> <BR />The minimum income floor will set a minimum level of assumed income from self-employment. The minimum income floor is designed to provide a fair incentive for the self-employed to increase their earnings and productivity and realise their financial potential. The earnings expectations of self-employed claimants under universal credit mirror those expected of claimants of similar circumstances in employed work.”
“Sometimes, you wonder where some Members come from on these things. The rules for the new independent external review will be similar to the current review process under the social fund. I assume that the issue will be the same when it comes to the way in which it is funded. What I will do, so that there is clarity for the Member, is give him further information on the costs. That will, I trust, be of help and benefit to him. I do not have that information in front of me, and there is no point in trying to bluff my way out of it. That is the reality, and that is where we are. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 73 proposes the removal of the ability to treat a person as having a prescribed level of income. Let me explain why we would want to treat a person as having a prescribed level of income.”
“I will give way when I am finished. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that what we are doing here is replacing what already exists; no more, no less.”
“I notice that the Member said that he would remind us when we say that we want to reduce the overall number of quangos. He will come back to this point and tell the DUP and me that, "Well, you created a new quango". The reality is that we are replacing what is already there. You have heard from the Member opposite that, if we were not to do this, there would be a call from Members in the House — "How will we deal with the issue? How will we address these concerns?" — and rightly so.”
“So, rather than us endorsing a new quango, we are replacing what is already there. Given what I have seen some of the quangos in Northern Ireland do recently, for example, the Equality Commission, I would love to be in a position to ensure that they are curtailed in the way in which they do their business. Of course, we had the charade in this House the other day when a Member tried to give the impression that he was taking the Equality Commission on, but we all know now that when the appropriate amendment should have been placed in the Budget process, that was not done. So, a lot of people want to seem to give the impression that they are really taking these things on, but, in reality, they are only trying to placate their own position and present a narrative that they know is not the case.”
“<BR /> <BR />I turn now to amendment No 52, which introduces new clause 130B, which defines the recruitment, role and responsibilities of the discretionary support commissioner and their staff. I trust that Mr Agnew is paying attention to this element, as it will rectify a comment that he made earlier. An important aspect of the discretionary support provision is the need for an independent review mechanism of decisions. <BR /> <BR />Under the social fund, the independent review service is provided by the Office of the Social Fund Commissioner for Northern Ireland. That will be replaced by the office of the discretionary support commissioner. The rules for the new independent external review will be similar to the current review process under the social fund.”
“<BR /> <BR />An important aspect of the new provision is the recognition that those finding themselves in the most extreme financial emergencies can also benefit from readily available specialist advice and information provided by a range of government and community providers. Referral to such advice, with the customer’s consent, will form an important element of the discretionary support provision. <BR /> <BR />Encouraging independence through effective use of discretionary support is an important part of the new provisions and is a vital element in building a stronger economy and tackling poverty and disadvantage. Discretionary support is about supporting people, protecting the vulnerable appropriately but also encouraging self-efficiency. I urge Members to accept amendment No 51.”
“<BR /> <BR />The new provision’s response to immediate need, as experienced by low-income and vulnerable individuals and/or households, will also allow for a range of practical interventions. Those will include the direct provision of financial awards, primarily through interest-free repayable loans. However, the provision of non-repayable grants will remain as an important element of support in the most extreme cases. Other interventions may, however, include, either directly or through third parties, the provision of goods and services. That may include essential equipment to relieve immediate household needs.”
“The new provision has been designed to ensure that support is properly targeted to address the highest-priority need of those on low income. It will not replicate the social fund, but it will reflect its strengths in ensuring a speedy response to emergency or crisis situations, including its local accessibility, its flexibility in meeting a wide variety of needs and its independent review mechanisms. The Social Security Agency, in designing the new provision, has used a number of key design principles that emerged from phase 1 of the social fund research study. Those have been endorsed by the Social Development Committee, and I know that it spent some time on that issue.”
“<BR /> <BR />Responding to such need will require a new provision that is responsive and flexible and that ensures a rapid and effective response to the most immediate needs through the provision of a range of interventions to relieve immediate need, to support and facilitate greater self-reliance, and to promote and support personal responsibility. Collaboration with other statutory services to ensure a proper assessment of individual need will also be required.”
“<BR /> <BR />The objectives of the new provision are to alleviate the most exceptional, extreme or crisis situations that present significant risk to the health, safety or well-being of low-income and vulnerable households through the provision of practical support; to ensure that those facing the most extreme hardship as a result of the adjustment to the changes to the social security regime are supported in their efforts towards self-dependency where access to discretionary support would avoid or reduce major risk or life-threatening circumstances; to maximise the effectiveness of discretionary support by ensuring that people in such circumstances have timely and appropriate access to and support from the range of government-funded general and specialist information and advice services to minimise the risk of re-occurrence; to support greater self-reliance and independence; and to improve social and financial inclusion.”
“The proposed repeal of certain social fund services will mean the removal of community care grants and crisis loans for living expenses and household items from that system. That has prompted the Department to develop a new provision for Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are also serious consequences for greater and longer-term costs to the public service if an effective response to immediate need is not available. There are very real risks for long-term health and social care costs, and there are consequences where the interests of households with children are threatened or where individuals are left without the fundamentals such as food, clothing, heat and housing. <BR /> <BR />In the past, the greater element of discretionary support has been delivered through the social fund in the form of community care grants, crisis loans for living expenses and household items, and budgeting loans as part of the social security system.”
“That is due to a combination of factors, but it is primarily because of the higher levels of people here who live in poverty. In comparison with the United Kingdom as a whole, Northern Ireland also has a persistently higher proportion of people who are concentrated just above the poverty line and at risk of falling into poverty. <BR /> <BR />It is not only those relying on benefits who find themselves needing help to relieve emergency situations. Figures show that, in Northern Ireland, over two fifths of individuals living in low-income households are part of a family where at least one adult is either in full-time or part-time work. For all those low-income groups, reliance on temporary support in emergency situations is expected to continue, if not to increase.”
“Again, I know that this can become laborious, but I think that, when we have comment in the public domain that is sometimes ill-informed, ill-advised and inaccurate, it is important that we lay out the facts of those things in the House, which has the responsibility for the legislation. I know that that will not stop some people who never let truth get in the way of a good story, but that is an issue that they have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />In Northern Ireland, the need for immediate support to those facing emergency financial situations is already higher than in any other part of the UK. I know that from my constituency, where there are particular issues and times when you can see a rise in the demand for services that are provided for under the social fund as it exists.”
“He has made a contribution to the Committee through his knowledge of many of the things that we are discussing. Over many years, he knew what it was to work with people on a day-to-day basis. I think that that knowledge was clearly seen in the work that he carried out when the Committee was scrutinising my Department's policy. I would like to see it return to that as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />Moving on to the issues on amendment No 51, proposed new clause 130A would provide for the discretionary support assistance, replacing elements of what is currently the social fund. I will explain in a moment how that clause is intended to be used, but first I would like to set out some of the broader context and the rationale for those changes.”
“I thank the Member. I was waiting for the opportunity to reply to Mr Agnew on the issue because he made some other comments that I am quite happy to address. The Member is absolutely right about the social fund and the Office of the Social Fund Commissioner. What we are doing is simply replacing what was already there; it is not the creation of a new position. I will deal with that issue because I want to make a few comments about some of the quangos that are acting disgracefully in Northern Ireland at the minute. Therefore, we will come to that. <BR /> <BR />I want to say a word of thanks and appreciation to the Member for the work that he has done. Depending on what happens on 7 May, he may be leaving this House and going to the House of Commons, I hope to take up his seat. That is an issue for him and his colleagues.”
“I will give consideration to the comments that have already been made to me, and, between now and Further Consideration Stage, I will give further consideration to the particular issue. I have already mentioned the elements on which I will bring further amendments at Further Consideration Stage. I think that that will require us to have discussions in a way that tries to tease out not only the issue but the benefits of making a particular amendment. I take on board the comment that has been put to me, and I will reflect further on the issue over the next few weeks. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 51 introduces proposed new clause 130A, which provides for discretionary support assistance replacing elements of what is currently the social fund.”
“I think that, if we place it on a statutory footing in legislation, we could get ourselves into more challenging times. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject the amendments. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No —”
“That is why the work that we continue to do with the sector — I give a commitment to continue to work with that sector — will intensify, but I do not believe, at this minute in time, that we are in need of a legislative framework that could create difficulties and — this is another point — could lead to a significant increase in the costs of the provision of that service. We would have to be very careful about that. Let us remember that there are many out there who like to make industries of certain things. I think that that has not happened with the advice sector as it is currently constructed because it has been a voluntary partnership between government and those organisations.”
“I listened to the comments made by the Member for East Belfast in relation to the amount of money that goes into that area, and I pay credit and commend in the House today the organisations in east Belfast that have drawn down huge amounts of money into their community. That can be replicated across many other parts of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the £4·5 million that my Department gives to the independent advice sector is having an effect. Can we do more? Can we do it better?”
“We have had a discussion on it — it has also been raised by other Members — and I have given, I trust, a sufficient assurance that the needs, the structure and the delivery of independent advice are met and secured in a way that people have confidence in. <BR /> <BR />The question that is raised in my mind is this: what are the current problems that we have that are so pressing that they have led to a requirement for the demand for it to be placed on a statutory basis? Members could be coming to me and saying, "Here is the list of huge problems and huge difficulties, and your Department has not given us a penny".”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department has just completed a widespread consultation with the advice sector on a new strategy that details the priority for the immediate future. This is real partnership working together, rather than a relationship based on statute. It is important that the voluntary sector is not seen as part of government, and that is one of the issues that I have around placing it on a statutory basis, because it is vital for me and for the Administration that the voluntary sector is not seen to be part and parcel of government or that somehow we have a command-and-control mechanism in place. They need to retain their independence and be seen to be independent of the Executive. Placing them under a statutory provision would potentially compromise that position. I have taken on board the concerns that have been raised by Mr Attwood.”
“As an immediate priority, the consortium is working to develop an agreed methodology for monitoring and take-up of advice services. We are also working closely with the consortium and local councils to better understand the impact of our existing investment, bringing a more robust approach to the targeting and prioritisation of support. This will present a key opportunity to monitor the impact of the welfare reforms and other government changes on advice services, and it will allow government to respond in circumstances where specific need or changing demand has been identified and evidenced. This links closely with our commitment in the Opening Doors framework to work in partnership with the advice sector, maximising access to quality services and bringing a structured approach to resourcing the sector.”
“I am conscious of the potential impact of welfare reform, and my officials are engaging with the consortium to discuss how we can work alongside the advice sector to best support customers through the implementation of welfare reform. Indeed, I met the consortium, and we had a very useful, cordial and constructive conversation on the issue. The advice consortium has a key role to play in building and supporting the capacity and capability of front-line advice providers; securing joined-up, targeted, service delivery; exploring alternative funding streams; and maximising the impact of the substantial resources that the Department has invested in advice.”
“I have concerns that the current amendments will also place a statutory duty on councils, since they will have the responsibilities for those services. This is driven by the objectives outlined in 'Opening Doors' and is influenced by a number of factors: the need to maximise the impact of our funding investment and the need for a more structured and coordinated approach to supporting those who need to access advice services. <BR /> <BR />As a result, the main advice support organisations operating in Northern Ireland — Citizens Advice, Advice NI, the Law Centre (NI) — have been contracted to work in partnership arrangements known as the Northern Ireland Advice Services Consortium.”
“Through 'Opening Doors', the Department already invests a substantial amount of money — in the region of £4·5 million annually — in the issue, to maximise access to advice provision and ensure that independent advice is accessible and available to all, free at the point of need and targeted to support the most vulnerable in our society. <BR /> <BR />Over recent years, my Department has developed a new approach for our funding and business relationships with the advice sector, particularly organisations providing general voluntary advice, which includes benefit advice. The advice sector at local level, which provides general advice services, are moving to become the responsibility of local government. Therefore, that duty would eventually be on local councils.”
“I know that this issue has had considerable debate and discussion. DSD has lead responsibility on behalf of government for voluntary information and advice services in Northern Ireland. Through 'Opening Doors: the Strategy for the Delivery of Voluntary Advice Services to the Community', the Department has already put in place arrangements to support a comprehensive, integrated, quality service across Northern Ireland within a framework to ensure that services are planned and delivered in a way that matches resources to need, focusing particularly on meeting the needs of the most disadvantaged.”
“I accept that there are many families across Northern Ireland who have exceptional needs and require to be paid more benefit. However, my party voted for the benefit cap in the House of Commons, and we believe that families on benefits should not receive more than working families. The SDLP's proposal would only increase the number of benefits, which could lead to exclusions from the benefit cap, and that will lead to additional costs for the block grant because it will bring in a difference between the social security systems here and Great Britain. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject the amendment. <BR /> <BR />In amendment Nos 48 and 50, the proposal is to insert a new clause to impose a duty on the Department to ensure that all claimants have access to independent advice on making a claim under the Act.”
“However, as I have stated previously, in accordance with the terms of the Stormont House Agreement, my Department is developing proposals for the provision of additional financial support to claimants who will be adversely impacted by welfare reform, including the benefit cap. I will bring a paper to the Executive — I hope in the near future — setting out how far it is proposed to move forward with welfare reform, including the modalities of implementing the different schemes agreed in the Stormont House Agreement. I propose to bring forward an enabling clause for these schemes at Further Consideration Stage. <BR /> <BR />At this time, my Department is working through the various payment scenarios for assistance from the supplementary payment scheme.”
“To amend the list of benefits that are included in the calculation of the benefit cap would be a clear breach of parity and would result in a financial penalty to the Northern Ireland block grant.”
“This is in recognition that disability living allowance is paid to people to help with extra costs arising from their disability. <BR /> <BR />For carers, the benefits system is designed to provide financial support where caring responsibilities prevent carers from working full time. As such, it is only right that carer's allowance should be counted alongside other income-maintenance benefits. Child benefit is an allowance that is paid to help with the expense of raising a child. As such, it should also be counted alongside other income-maintenance benefits. <BR /> <BR />Initially, the benefit cap will be delivered through housing benefit payments, so households that are not getting housing benefit will not have the cap applied. Ultimately, it will be administered as part of the new universal credit system.”
“It is important that the benefits system is fair and seen to be fair, not just to benefit recipients but to the taxpayers who pay for our welfare system. It is neither reasonable nor fair that households in receipt of out-of-work benefits should receive a greater income from benefits than working households earning the average weekly wage. <BR /> <BR />This clause will allow us to prescribe in regulations how the benefits cap will operate. The cap will apply to the combined income from the main out-of-work benefits: jobseeker's allowance; income support; employment and support allowance; housing benefit; child benefit and child tax credit; and other benefits, such as carer's allowance. Households that include a member who is receiving disability living allowance will be exempt.”
“I ask the Member to give us the indulgence to ensure that we are in a position to develop the scheme. Officials are doing that, and I hope to be in a position to see the proposals relatively soon. That will go to the Executive and will, I trust, give some clarity. <BR /> <BR />I want to move on to amendment No 42. The amendment seeks to revise which benefits are included in the calculation of the benefit cap. The proposal is to remove child benefit, carer's allowance and any benefits or components of benefits received for caring responsibilities. The primary objective of the cap is to tackle the culture of welfare dependency by setting a clear limit on what people can expect to get from the benefits system.”
“I say this on a personal basis: there are things that happen in our families that we would have preferred were not the case, but we have to deal with those circumstances and situations. If there were no protection and no structure for those circumstances to be dealt with, you would come to this House and say that we have no systems, safeguards or security. <BR /> <BR />I cannot give this House a blank cheque so that, in every set of circumstances in relation to all the issues that we are dealing with, every one of them will be dealt with in exactly the same way. Do you know the reason why? Every one of those circumstances will not be exactly the same. We have only just got through the issues in relation to ESA; it is complex. Those are things that we have to deal with.”
“That will be dependent on how we develop the scheme. I have heard a lot of comment in the last 24 hours that people want us to be definitive about every individual single issue. There is no doubt about what will happen. There will be those who, for their own political reasons — if they could recognise what a benefit claim form was, in some cases — will bring out examples and say, "You said there wasn't going to be this. Well, here is the evidence." Let us remember that we are dealing with a complex situation and with families who face a variety of challenging and complex circumstances. Not everybody's family is as unified as we would like them to be. Families today are more diverse.”
“I will, but I want to make some progress. I will give way to the Member if he is brief, if that is possible.”