Mervyn Storey
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. It will be noted that there are those who cry much about the environment and purport to be the champions of the environment who did not have the courtesy to come to the House and be present when the statement was being made.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Clearly, there are some in the House who want to continue with the same old, same old and get the same outcomes at a huge cost to the public purse and to farms in Northern Ireland. The Minister is absolutely right: it is a scourge.”
“I am sure that the Minister will be aware, having listened to the Member who spoke before me, that the farmers of North Antrim will make an informed choice about who best supported farmers during this mandate of the Assembly.”
“A pilot scheme has been operating with the Education Authority, the PSNI and the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust across 60 schools in the south Down area since September 2021 and was extended to a further 77 schools in the Newry and south Armagh areas at the start of February 2022.”
“As Chair of the Justice Committee, I am pleased to welcome the motion. It implements the provisions taken forward by the Committee in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021 to establish an Operation Encompass model in Northern Ireland, which is, as the Minister has outlined, a police and early intervention pa…”
“We had our final meeting of that Committee this morning, and I want to place on the public record our appreciation and thanks to our Committee staff of for all the work that they have done.”
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“As clause 112 no longer stands part of the Bill, those repeals are no longer required, so there is no need for them to be removed. I urge Members to accept amendment Nos 76 and 78. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 77 would remove the need to report on income support sanctions when income support is abolished and replaced completely by universal credit. I urge Members to accept amendment No 77. <BR /> <BR />That brings my remarks on the Consideration Stage of the Welfare Reform Bill to a conclusion.”
“Clause 133(3) sets out how the commencement orders can be used, for example, to appoint different days for different purposes and for different areas in certain cases. Amendment Nos 58 to 72 are to clause 133(1) and result from the commencement date for the new sanctions regime being aligned with universal credit; the deferral of the commencement date for the rate relief scheme being deferred; and the inclusion of commencement dates, where appropriate, for provisions that have already commenced in Great Britain. I urge Members to accept amendment Nos 58 to 72. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 76 and 78 would move repeals from schedule 12. The repeals were included in schedule 12 because of the changes being brought in by clause 112, which relates to civil penalties.”
“That, in turn, would increase the potential for a financial penalty to be incurred to the Northern Ireland block grant. I trust that that is what Members wish to avoid. It is important. I have given commitments on processing all this and will ensure that my Department works constantly to bring forward all these issues in a timely manner so that we can avoid any further penalties. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject amendment Nos 40 and 41. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the last amendments, which are amendments Nos 58 to 72. Clause 133 would provide for provisions of the Bill to come into force. The provisions specified in subsection (1) come into force on Royal Assent, and the Act's remaining provisions will be brought into force by commencement orders.”
“That is designed to facilitate parity of timing whilst ensuring that the Assembly has the opportunity to debate the regulations and to decide whether to approve them. As a general rule, the affirmative procedure would be applied to regulations that are unique to Northern Ireland, that is, they are not parity based, outside of social security, provide for something controversial or deal with financial assistance, such as the discretionary support scheme. This is the only set of regulations that will fall out of the Bill that the affirmative procedure will apply to. <BR /> <BR />It is important to highlight that, if the regulations falling under clause 93 were to be made using the affirmative procedure, there would inevitably be delays in introducing the personal independence payment to Northern Ireland.”
“As proposed in the Bill, the procedure applies only to the first set of regulations to be made. Subsequent amendment regulations would usually be categorised as non-controversial and routine and would be made using the negative procedure. I have no doubt that Members followed all that and are clearly across the procedure, so that we ensure that we cover all these issues in a way that, I trust, satisfies the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Affirmative procedure is almost never used in social security legislation. Currently, within the social security field, it is applied only to certain regulations for which DSD inherited responsibility from DEL. Instead, social security regulations are subject to the confirmative procedure, where the Assembly votes on whether to approve the regulations after they are made.”
“<BR /> <BR />The confirmatory procedure is proposed for regulations that bring in any new scheme or benefit, or that are considered controversial, such as all of the universal credit regulations and the main PIP regulations.”
“<BR /> <BR />The rationale for the form of Assembly control is that negative resolution is usually applied to non-controversial, minor and routine amendment regulations, whilst the confirmatory procedure, for the first detailed set, applies to regulations made using the affirmative procedure in Westminster. The confirmatory procedure is used to facilitate the need for parity of timing whilst safeguarding the Assembly’s right to approve the regulations and have greater scrutiny of regulations that are either deemed controversial or have significant policy changes. That is important, and, in light of that detail, it is necessary that we have those procedures and assurance in place.”
“That means that the regulations are subject to debate and the agreement of the Assembly within six months of coming into operation. In all other cases, regulations made under this Part of the Bill will be subject to negative procedure. Amendment No 40 proposes to change the Assembly process for these regulations to the draft affirmative procedure. That means that the regulations would be laid in draft form and cannot be made and become operative unless approved by the Assembly. Amendment No 41 is a technical amendment that is consequential to amendment No 40 and would remove a reference to the definition of the confirmatory procedure.”
“An adopter will similarly be able to bring their adoption leave and pay to an early end to opt into shared parental leave and pay with their partner. Amendment No 33 inserts clause 63A, which ensures that only parents entitled to work in the United Kingdom are entitled to shared parental pay. I urge Members to accept amendment No 33. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 40 and 41 relate to the Assembly control for certain regulations that introduce aspects of the personal independence payment. Perhaps it would assist the House if I reiterated what clause 93 does. This provision, which is that the first set of regulations made in relation to the assessment criteria for both working-age adults and children, or for determining whether the claimant meets the required period condition, will be by confirmatory procedure.”
“To take account of that, I have tabled amendment Nos 30, 31 and 32 to clause 63. These take account of the name change, and I urge Members to accept them. <BR /> <BR />The Work and Families Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 provides the basis for new rights to shared parental leave and pay in Northern Ireland. Those new rights will come into effect for babies that are due, or for children placed for adoption, on or after 5 April 2015. The Act provides for the introduction of shared parental leave and pay in Northern Ireland. It is anticipated that shared parental leave and pay will give families greater choice in how they arrange childcare in the first year by allowing working mothers the option of ending their maternity pay and maternity leave early, and to share untaken leave and pay with their partner.”
“On Mr Beggs's point, bearing in mind the need to implement welfare reform legislation as quickly as possible for the fines to the Northern Ireland block grant to cease, I urge Members to reject amendment Nos 21 and 22. I have considered and appreciate the comments that Mr Beggs made about that issue. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 30, 31 and 32 all relate to clause 63. They are technical amendments that result from the Work and Families Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, which received Royal Assent on 8 January 2015. The Act provides a legislative framework that enables the modernisation of arrangements for statutory pay and leave following the birth or adoption of a child, and it renames what were previously known as ordinary statutory paternity pay and additional statutory paternity pay as statutory paternity pay.”
“It will also maintain the flexibility to amend the legislation quickly in the future to respond to changes without making disproportionate demands on the legislature. <BR /> <BR />I am proposing that the form of Assembly control to be applied to regulations remains as it is in the Bill. That will enable the subordinate legislation to make timely progress. It means that the first set of regulations that introduce major policy changes will be made using the confirmatory procedure. The alternative approach suggested by these amendments is affirmative, which provides for consideration before the regulation comes into effect, and is rarely applied to social security legislation as it could lead to delays in implementation.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 21 changes the Assembly control from confirmatory to affirmative, and amendment No 22 removes the explanation of the confirmatory procedure. Clause 44 provides for the procedure by which the Northern Ireland Assembly can control the making of regulations for universal credit. The Assembly controls for the universal credit regulations will, in the main, follow the more common form of control, ie the negative resolution procedure. That follows the conventional approach to delegated legislation in this area. However, regulations that introduce new concepts to the benefits system will be subject to the confirmatory procedure in the first instance. That will ensure a debate on any areas of concern.”
“I am sure that there are many Members who are glad that we have, I trust, got to this stage and that we are now in group 5, which is the final group of amendments. As other Members have done, let me give a word of thanks to those who have contributed today and yesterday. Let me also give a word of appreciation to my staff, who have been and continue to be available. I appreciate all the work that they have done to ensure that I have the necessary information. I place on record my appreciation of all that hard work. <BR /> <BR />Let me move to the amendments. I again underscore the fact that some of them have a technical nature about them; they are about the procedures of the House. Sometimes it becomes a challenge for us all to ensure that we have got our head around all these things.”
“I am quite happy to give that commitment now. I trust that that has been the case both previously and since I came to office. I have not at any time, nor will I, put any impediment before the Committee in ensuring that it has timely and appropriate information. I think that the Chair will bear record to the fact that the officials have been amenable and available for this, and I give the commitment that that will be the case. I take the Member's point, because it is vital that we do that — I will maybe cover some of this as I conclude — but it is also vital that I have confidence that the information that is necessary for the Committee to fulfil its role is placed before it in a way that means that it can carry out its function and statutory responsibility to the House.”
“The Social Security (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 requires the Department to prepare an annual report on the standards of decision-making, and a copy of every such report must be laid in the Assembly. I will take on board the comments that have been made and revisit the issue of the standards assurance unit to see what comment and decisions we could make before we come back at Further Consideration Stage. As I have offered to have a discussion with Mr Agnew on the concerns that he raised, I also undertake to have a discussion with Mr Attwood on that issue. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to the conclusion of my comments on the fourth group of amendments.”
“In April 2014, the chairperson, Professor Evason, observed that evidence from the DWP Select Committee suggested that inappropriate use is being made of sanctions in GB, raising concerns about the quality of decision-making, and I think that is the point that the Member referred to. On foot of that and other issues raised by the Committee, she requested that a standards assurance unit should undertake a special exercise to provide reassurance on the position in Northern Ireland currently and provide a benchmark for the future. <BR /> <BR />As the work on standards of decision-making in relation to sanctions is already being monitored by the Joint Standards Committee, we take the view that there is no need to legislate.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 56 requests that the standards and quality of decision-making with regard to sanctions will be monitored by the social security Joint Standards Committee on an annual basis. In response to Mr Attwood, I have outlined that the Northern Ireland Joint Standards Committee was set up in 1999 to report to the chief executive of the Social Security Agency and the head of the Child Maintenance Service in Northern Ireland on the standards of decision-making and payment accuracy within the two organisations. That includes the accuracy of decisions on sanctions.”
“I indicated earlier a commitment to lay a report annually, and I made comments earlier in relation to amendment Nos 47 and 49. <BR /> <BR />In addition to those controls, I advise that routine checks and balances are built into public expenditure that ensures probity in governance. Given that those structures already exist, the need for an additional report may be deemed unnecessary, but I qualify what I have already said about those issues. It is also worth noting that, in terms of social security legislation, as we have already said, the Bill does not exist in isolation. Much of the mechanics and the outworkings of this fall within the scrutiny role of the Committee. I trust that I have already covered that. On that basis, our position is to reject amendment Nos 54 and 55.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, I am willing to have a conversation with Mr Agnew on the issue before we come back for Further Consideration Stage. Despite the situation that we find ourselves in with the current petition of concern, we will make progress. I think that the tone and nature of the contributions that we have had in the House today have been helpful. There have been some good suggestions and there are some things that will give me food for thought as we prepare for Further Consideration Stage. I want that to continue as we try to make progress on the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I turn to amendment Nos 54 and 55. Amendment No 54 requests the Department to table a report on the implementation of the Act and on the financial arrangements applicable to welfare expenditure within six months, and annually thereafter.”
“Consider the scale, size and complexity of this Act and the nature of the journey that we have now commenced. As I said earlier, this business is not concluded when we get to the end of proceedings tonight, nor indeed will it be concluded when we get Royal Assent in April this year, as I trust we will. It is an ongoing process or, dare I use the word, an evolutionary one, and some Members know the difficulty that I have in using that term. However, it is an ongoing process. My current thinking on the issue is that we should give due regard and place to the Committee to make its own decisions as to how to deal with these issues as we move forward. I must read into the record that I urge Members to reject amendment No 49.”
“He talked about having the Northern Ireland joint standards committee, a Committee of the House and the welfare cap report. <BR /> <BR />I believe that primary responsibility for the scrutiny and interrogation of policy and policy-related practice is the Social Development Committee. As Minister, I am duty-bound to give the Committee its place, as the rules of the House dictate. It is not for me to set out terms and conditions and the way in which the Committee operates. I was Chair of the Education Committee — and I know that the Education Minister was only too glad when I was taken away from that post and sent to this one. On that Committee, we endeavoured to set out a work programme, and on a monthly basis we looked at specific issues which were of relevance to the Department.”
“Our analytical services unit has just published the first research compendium which brings together a comprehensive selection of the information that we generate as a Department. Of particular importance is that the data and information presented reflects some of the most pressing problems that we face as a community — poverty, homelessness, disability and access, and take-up of social security benefits. <BR /> <BR />I say to Members — and sometimes it is not the most accepted of comments made in the House — that I would refer them to the Department's website because there is a wealth of information there currently. I also want to raise this issue before I leave the matter. It is the point raised by the Member about the triple lock. Here we are, back to the days of the triple lock.”
“The amendment would introduce a new clause, clause 120C, which requests an independent report on the operation and effectiveness of this Act — including the numbers of people living in poverty and the financial impact on women — to be laid before the Assembly within three years of the commencement of the Act and every five years thereafter. As with amendment No 55, I advise Members, and the Assembly, that, in terms of social security legislation, this Bill does not exist in isolation. As the House will have noted, much of the content of the Bill amends an existing body of social security legislation. <BR /> <BR />The Department already produces reports on the impact of welfare reform, and those will continue to be produced on a regular basis.”
“However, I say to the Member that I will give consideration to this particular element. I think that a comment was also made by Michaela Boyle in relation to amendment No 49. I want to move on. Although we will not accept amendment No 47 for reasons which we all know in relation to the petition of concern, I want to take this element of the comments that have been made and look again at it before the Further Consideration Stage of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />This brings me to amendment No 49, and comments made by Mr Agnew.”
“Currently, my Department produces an annual report on standards of decision-making within the Social Security Agency, and the decision-making report will be expanded to include information on sanctions. <BR /> <BR />I heard the comment that Mr Attwood made about quality, and I take on board what he said. The report will detail the type and numbers of sanctions that are imposed on claimants, either as a result of failure to fulfil their claimant commitment or fraud. The report will contain a number of details; I want to read those into the record and then make a further comment. It will include the number of persons who are affected by sanctions; the periods for which such persons are affected; the reasons for which sanctions are imposed; and the benefits or allowances that are reduced or lost.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 46 also adds the Department of Justice to the list of qualifying persons to whom information can be supplied. That will enable social security data to be shared for the purposes of the remission of transport charges for prison visits. I urge members to accept amendment No 46. <BR /> <BR />I turn to amendment No 47 and the issues that were raised by Mr Beggs. I want to make some comments on amendment No 47 and amendment No 49, which was tabled by Mr Agnew. Amendment No 47 introduces a new clause to provide for an annual report to be produced and laid before the Assembly to report information on sanctions. The intention is to provide transparency on the application of the sanctions regime.”
“By removing the need for claimants to repeatedly produce the same financial information to different parts of government, the clause will help to make it easier and, I trust, quicker for people to apply for and receive the services that they are entitled to. Where people have to pay towards a service, it will also ensure that social services are able to charge the right amount at the right time. That will reduce the amount of free care that many social services are obliged to provide and will potentially realise considerable savings. Removing the need for consent forms to be obtained, recorded and updated before information can be shared will allow administrative savings to be made by social services and the Department.”
“That will allow the Department to respond to changes so that welfare services can be delivered promptly without the need for further primary legislation. In the future, that power could also be used for new schemes or services. The regulation-making power in clause 117 means that it would be a simple matter to prescribe additional welfare services where that is deemed necessary. That will provide the Department with a degree of flexibility that will be useful as and when new schemes or services are developed. <BR /> <BR />Introducing a legal gateway that will allow information to be shared in more circumstances will bring a number of advantages.”
“In addition, it is intended that information will be shared under that new power to help decide whether a person is eligible for a disabled person's parking permit or a disabled facilities grant towards the cost of providing adaptations and facilities to enable the disabled person to continue to live in their home. It will also allow claimant social security information to be supplied to social services staff so that they can decide whether a person should contribute towards the charges that are made for domiciliary services such as home helps and meals. <BR /> <BR />The clause provides the Department with the flexibility to add to the list of qualifying persons where there is good justification for doing so.”
“Clause 117 replaces that legislation and broadens the scope of information sharing that can take place. It will allow information to be shared for a wider group of welfare services, the details of which will be prescribed in regulations. <BR /> <BR />We intend to use that power to continue to allow data to be shared for housing benefit and Supporting People services. When the abolition of housing benefit commences, that power will also allow information to be supplied to the Department about a person's claim for housing costs within universal credit or the new housing credit for people of pension age.”
“<BR /> <BR />Information can already be shared for the provision of a welfare service and for certain rates or housing benefit purposes. Widening the category of welfare services for which claimant information can be shared will make it easier for those with particular needs, such as elderly and disabled people, to receive the services they are entitled to. It will also provide the opportunity to reduce costs and make sure that limited funds are targeted appropriately. Current legislation allows social security information to be shared for housing benefit or certain welfare services purposes without requiring individual claimant consent. It is used to enable exchanges of information between and within authorities for the administration of a group of services commonly referred to as Supporting People.”
“There is an issue about the information that is supplied, because we need to be convinced and certain — I need to have due regard to my statutory responsibility, which is to continue to deliver a safe and secure social welfare system in Northern Ireland — that any information supplied under clause 117 will be subject to the offence provisions that are set out in clause 118. That makes it a criminal offence for a person to disclose information unlawfully, and it mirrors the provisions that already apply to social security information that is supplied to the Housing Executive and Land and Property Services for housing benefit. That is to give assurance that there will be protection for claimants. I think that that needs to be underscored.”
“Costs have not yet been assessed, but they are expected to be, I trust, minimal. For those reasons, and because we have an agreement that this is what we said we would do, I am happy to accept that amendment. <BR /> <BR />Turning to amendment No 46, clause 117 would replace the information-sharing gateway in section 39 of the Welfare Reform Act (Northern Ireland) 2007 and would broaden the scope of the data sharing that is provided for under the existing section. It would allow relevant information to be shared between the Department and relevant bodies such as the Housing Executive, Land and Property Services and other providers to help to make front-line public services more efficient. I think that that is probably about trying to get a grasp of the information gap that the Member commented on.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 34, which would introduce new clause 76A, would place a requirement on my Department to undertake at least one pilot scheme to test the effectiveness of arrangements for personal independence payment and outcomes for claimants. The Social Security Agency will develop a pilot scheme to test the implementation of PIP in Northern Ireland to better inform future roll-out plans and to obtain early estimates on outcomes. The agency is working on the detail for the PIP pilot scheme. However, DLA claimants who have had a successful DLA award in the six months prior to June 2015 will be invited to take part in the pilot. Planning assumptions are that the pilot will start in June this year. The pilot will be entirely voluntary and will not impact on the current DLA awards.”
“<BR />There are instances when we would not duplicate a pilot in the rest of Great Britain, such as when testing information technology where we use the GB IT system. The GB pilot would already have tested Northern Ireland aspects. I think that any pilot in Northern Ireland would obviously have to secure ministerial approval and funding before regulations for it are made, and it would have to be approved in the normal manner through the Social Development Committee. So, for those reasons, we are still of the view that amendment No 20 should be rejected. However, I trust that the Member will then be assured that we are content to support amendment No 34. Mr Beggs alluded to the fact that his party sought that provision as part of the Stormont House Agreement, and we were happy to do that.”
“As he would expect, and as I think he anticipated me to say, the reasons that we may give as to why we think that this is not something that we can consider at the moment obviously depend on what Great Britain is piloting. The sample size in Northern Ireland still gives us concern that it may be too small to give meaningful results. There may be further work to be done in relation to that. The GB pilot might give us the information required, without wasting resources repeating it in Northern Ireland. That could be an argument worth considering. If we do want to duplicate a GB pilot, we may want to pilot at the same time or wait until after their pilot has finished. Therefore, "within six months" could be too restrictive. That is another element that we need to take into consideration.”
“I thank the Members who made a contribution on this group of amendments, and I will endeavour to be brief as we work our way through these. However, again, as I said earlier, it is also important that there are some things that I need to say. I trust that I will meet, or live up to, the expectation expressed by Mr Attwood, even though he does seem to think he has a fair idea as to what it is I am going to say. <BR /> <BR />Amendment 20 amends clause 42 to provide that where GB carries out a universal credit pilot, the Department will carry out a similar pilot within six months. I have listened to the concerns that the Member raised.”
“On a point of accuracy: while I will accept the amendment on the pilot, my Department is in almost continual contact — I know that Mr Attwood will probably say that this just confirms all his fears — with DWP on pilots that are going on throughout the United Kingdom. We are endeavouring to learn. I think that this would not be the first pilot in the United Kingdom.”
“Thank you. I take what the Member has said about this. Will he allow me the opportunity to take away those comments that he has made specifically on this issue and to give further thought to what he has said?”
“The Member will also be aware that the Northern Ireland joint standards committee reports to the chief executive of the Social Security Agency and the head of the division of the Child Maintenance Service, formerly the Child Support Agency, and it specifically includes the accuracy of decisions on sanctions. I wonder why there is a necessity to expand something that is already doing what the Member is requesting that it should do.”
“Would the Member also accept that, as part of the five-party Stormont Castle agreement, we agreed that there was a need for greater clarity on the implications of further spending on social security in Northern Ireland following the introduction of the welfare spending cap by the Chancellor; and that we have agreed that, working in partnership with the Minister of Finance and Personnel — this covers the point that the Member makes in relation to the wording of the amendment — I would propose a commission to review the operation of the welfare cap? I have asked that officials develop draft terms of reference accordingly. So, in a sense, there is agreement to do that. My concern is that we do not need to have it in the legislation.”
“On the effectiveness of sanctions, and I think that the Member referred to this, he may be aware that, some time ago, I tabled an amendment, which we will debate shortly under the fourth group. I hope that we will get to that group in a minute or two. The amendment relates to my commitment to report to the Assembly on a range of issues including, but not exclusively, the operation of sanctions. I think that that will again give us a more evidence-based approach. We will continue the discussion on what we can do with that particular matter in the future. <BR /> <BR />Those are my concluding comments on the third group of amendments.”
“I want to make sure that the claimant's journey is one that is as seamless as it possibly can be and that the person makes a journey from one element of the jobs and benefits centre to another element of the jobs and benefits centre in a way that both are speaking the same language, both understand the needs of the individual and both can relate to the person as an individual, and that the person is not just a processed number on a page being put through the system. That is a huge amount of work, and I think that I have given myself enough commitment to that to say that that is where I want to work with the Minister for Employment and Learning.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the Member's point, I have sought a discussion with the Minister for Employment and Learning, and I trust that we will have that discussion in the next number of weeks, because here is where all of this, I believe, will face a particular challenge. I am very focused around this, and I think that, in fairness to the Minister, he understands the argument that I am trying to make, which is that, if we do not put the arrangements in place and the proper structures in place, we could easily find ourselves in a situation where some of the things that Mr Attwood referred to earlier would happen here. I think that, despite what the proposals might be concerning the reorganisation of the Departments post-2016, that is vital and will play a part. That is a debate or discussion that is ongoing.”
“Is the language that we use on this the right language? A lot of concerns were raised about these measures being punitive and all of that. As I found coming into the Department, there is language that is used across a variety of responsibilities that I have. I know that Members have heard me say this, and I said it publicly at a conference recently in relation to housing: I think that we need to change the language that we use on the way that we provide housing, because people have a different view of housing depending on the way that you describe it. I think that, on this issue, we have, unfortunately, at this minute in time, the structure that we have, but it is something that I think merits some consideration in the future.”
“As I have endeavoured to try to ensure that, in my attempts to get a grasp of all of this, I have had to read a considerable amount of material. Much has been made of the comments made by the independent expert Matthew Oakley, and I am sure that he would be delighted to know that his argument is being so well rehearsed and well used in the House. In the overview of that, the comment was still made that sanctions are applied as a last resort when claimants fail to do enough to find work and fail to attend appointments. Recent research shows that 72% of claimants say that they are more likely to follow the rules because of the threat of having payments stopped. <BR /> <BR />The Member did raise a serious point regarding whether "sanction regime" is the right name. Are people put off by the term "sanctions"?”
“Are they all perfect? No. Have we as a party got all that we want? No, but has everybody else? I still think that it goes back to that original point, which is that there was a five-party agreement. Others will have to explain why they felt that it was necessary not to carry it through in the spirit of the way that it was arranged. <BR /> <BR />Let me come to the issue that Mr McCrea raised. I find myself again in an unusual position, because it is not often that he says we are doing something that he is in favour of. As I said to my colleague, I do get a bit concerned about Members who listen to Radio 4 and read 'The Guardian'. Or, maybe we would be more informed if that were the case. I did listen to Radio 4 as well.”
“I am glad that, since then and until today, we have movement and an agreement as we move our way through the Regeneration Bill, and that we now have movement and progress on welfare.”
“I think that the Member is trying to draw me in to a debate and a discussion between his party and the SDLP. While I am very, very reluctant to get drawn in, there is a part of me that would be very tempted to. It is sometimes said that, as you go to certain meetings, you try to leave your other interests at the door. As I have come to the House as the Minister with responsibility, I have had to try to take on board the fact that, yes, there was a political process and that that political process has brought about an agreement, and I am glad. When I came into the Department on 24 September, I faced the situation where I had no prospect of getting a Regeneration Bill moving; deadlock. I had the situation where the Welfare Reform Bill was in deadlock.”