Mervyn Storey
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. It will be noted that there are those who cry much about the environment and purport to be the champions of the environment who did not have the courtesy to come to the House and be present when the statement was being made.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Clearly, there are some in the House who want to continue with the same old, same old and get the same outcomes at a huge cost to the public purse and to farms in Northern Ireland. The Minister is absolutely right: it is a scourge.”
“I am sure that the Minister will be aware, having listened to the Member who spoke before me, that the farmers of North Antrim will make an informed choice about who best supported farmers during this mandate of the Assembly.”
“A pilot scheme has been operating with the Education Authority, the PSNI and the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust across 60 schools in the south Down area since September 2021 and was extended to a further 77 schools in the Newry and south Armagh areas at the start of February 2022.”
“As Chair of the Justice Committee, I am pleased to welcome the motion. It implements the provisions taken forward by the Committee in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021 to establish an Operation Encompass model in Northern Ireland, which is, as the Minister has outlined, a police and early intervention pa…”
“We had our final meeting of that Committee this morning, and I want to place on the public record our appreciation and thanks to our Committee staff of for all the work that they have done.”
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“Sometimes, it is easier to allow something to remain in the primary legislation. That will allow us to work out the calculation for how we would use or pay for the fund that we will set out to the Executive and the House over the next number of weeks. For those reasons —”
“The Member should ask others about that and not the Minister. There is another issue. One of the practical reasons why we need to retain clause 69 is so that the calculation can be made when we come to implement the scheme. If clause 69 was not in the Bill, I would have a huge difficulties in making that calculation. <BR /> <BR />Let us dispense with the myth that, somehow, we are, in some clandestine way, trying to introduce the bedroom tax. There are practical considerations. I know that the Member maybe struggles to get his head around the issue, but dealing with a five-party mandatory coalition ain't easy. There are also challenges and difficulties in trying to transcribe legislation from the House of Commons into Northern Ireland legislation. There are also the practical implications of how you want to get to a certain point.”
“There will be mixed provision and not only one-, two- or three-bedroom properties. That is what we ought to be about. That is a long-term challenge and a long-term issue for the Executive.”
“If I look at his constituency, I see that the breakdown of applicants in housing stress in North Down is that 35% of those on the waiting list are looking for single-bedroom accommodation. There is a need. That is an issue that we will have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />If I can devote some more time to my other responsibilities, as I have been doing while waiting on getting agreement on bringing the Bill to the House, I will want to move on the issue of the long-term sustainable future of the Housing Executive. I want to address the nature of what we do and the way in which we do our business so that we can continue to build, to improve and to ensure that, as far as my responsibilities and those of my Department are concerned, we have good quality homes for people in Northern Ireland, irrespective of where they live.”
“Let me repeat to the Member because maybe he did not hear. We have created a separate fund of £17 million per annum that will mitigate the impact of the measure by protecting existing and future tenants from any reduction in their housing benefit. There is no secret that we have to balance that against the reality, so it is unless there is a significant change in their personal circumstances or they are afforded suitable alternative accommodation. We will see that in developing the scheme, which will really be a replication of the discretionary housing payments that are in existence. <BR /> <BR />Let me come to a point that the Member made earlier. It was as though there is somehow no need for us to look at housing and single-bedroom properties in certain locations.”
“I advise Members that, at Further Consideration Stage, I will be bringing forward an amendment to facilitate this.”
“Just let me conclude on this. It is important, because there was an accusation from some yesterday that there have been yet again very secret and suspicious discussions and that we are all in a big plot and plan somehow. Of course, I am the one who has to implement it. Let me be open and transparent and tell Members what has been agreed. <BR /> <BR />The Executive have agreed the fund, and officials in my Department are developing a scheme that will go to the Executive for agreement prior to public consultation. The outcomes of this consultation will form the basis for the subordinate legislation. In accordance with the terms of the Stormont House Agreement, my Department is developing its proposals for the provision of additional, enhanced DHP support for claimants who will be adversely impacted through the introduction of this measure.”
“The Executive have agreed to create a separate fund of £17 million per annum that will mitigate the impact of this measure by protecting existing and future tenants from any reduction in their housing benefit unless there is a significant change in their personal circumstances or they are offered suitable alternative accommodation. Officials are developing —”
“Rather than removing the clause from the legislation, I have discussed with Executive colleagues if and how the discretionary housing payments budget can be further enhanced so that tenants will not be impacted until such times as the housing stock matches the need. <BR /> <BR />There are members of the Northern Ireland Executive in the House, and there is a five-party party agreement among the Executive. I say that just in case it has somehow been lost in the midst of all that has been said over the last 24 hours.”
“It is manifestly unfair that the rate of housing benefit that tenants in the private rented sector receive is related to the size of dwelling the claimant needs when no restrictions are placed on those in the social housing sector. In considering how best to move forward, I have focused on balancing the need to protect people and communities from the worst aspects of the policy with the need to ensure that we make the best use of our limited social housing stock and do not implement measures that hinder, or even discourage, mobility.”
“It is important to protect the public purse by only paying benefits when and to whom it is appropriate to do so. I urge Members to reject the opposition to those three clauses. <BR /> <BR />Clause 69 introduces size criteria into the calculation of housing benefit for working age tenants in the social housing sector. I am well aware of all the discussion, debate and concern that there is around this particular clause. I will work my way through this and trust that this will be of benefit. <BR /> <BR />I recognise that what is proposed represents a major change for social sector tenants. However, I am also acutely aware that we, as a society, must act to reduce the spiralling costs of housing benefit and restore fairness to the system.”
“<BR /> <BR />The clause has also been opposed. Removing the clause would enable youth claimants to continue be treated more beneficially than claimants of any other age, and I have already indicated that there is no objective justification for such treatment. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject amendment Nos 28 and 29. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 61, 62 and 63 ensure that claimants can receive contributory jobseeker’s allowance, contributory employment and support allowance, maternity allowance or statutory payments only if they are entitled to be in employment in the United Kingdom. There was never any policy intention for a person with no entitlement to work in the UK to receive out-of-work benefits, and this new condition of entitlement will ensure that that situation can no longer arise.”
“Those words are not required as the claimant will qualify under the normal rules if he has paid sufficient National Insurance contributions. This clause only amends the special conditions for young people. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 29 adds additional words to paragraph 4 of schedule 1 to the Welfare Reform Act (Northern Ireland) 2007, which would require the claimant to have limited capability for work after the assessment phase had ended. Limited capability for work is one of the conditions of entitlement a claimant must satisfy before he is eligible for an ESA award. Therefore, the additional words are unnecessary. The purpose of schedule 1 is to describe the conditions of entitlement to a contributory ESA award relating to National Insurance contributions, with the special conditions for youth being set out in paragraph 4.”
“The vast majority of claimants who receive contributory ESA on the grounds of youth — around 90% — are expected to receive income-related ESA. Those who do not qualify for that are likely to have capital in excess of £16,000 or a partner in full-time work who may be entitled to working tax credit. This change is another step in simplifying the benefit system to facilitate the introduction of universal credit. <BR /> <BR />Clause 54 does not prevent claimants under 20 from making claims for ESA. The only change is that they will have to meet the same conditions as everyone else who applies. If they have not paid sufficient contributions, they will be assessed for income-related ESA rather than contribution-based ESA, both of which are paid at the same rate. Amendment No 28 adds the words:”
“Clause 54 repeals these provisions of the Welfare Reform Act (Northern Ireland) 2007 and prevents new claims for contributory allowance being made on the specific grounds of youth from the date the clause comes into operation. After that, people who would have benefited from the concession will be required to meet the usual contribution conditions that apply to all contributory ESA claims. <BR /> <BR />As I previously stated, there is no objective justification for treating young people any differently. No other age group can qualify for contributory ESA without having paid, or being treated as having paid, National Insurance contributions, nor does any other contributory benefit have similar arrangements.”
“However, youth claimants who are in the work-related activity group will be subject to a time limit of 365 days. Those in the support group will be unaffected, as will anyone receiving income-related ESA, whichever group they are assigned to. <BR /> <BR />The normal rules are that a person must have paid or been credited with sufficient National Insurance contributions in the tax years that are relevant to the claim in order to qualify for contributory allowance. There are special conditions for young people who are exempt from meeting the usual paid National Insurance conditions. These provide that a person aged 16 to 19, or under 25 in certain prescribed circumstances, who is not in full-time education and has had limited capability for work for 196 consecutive days will be entitled to contributory ESA.”
“The support will be designed to supplement their incomes as they adjust to the new arrangements. It is my intention to table an amendment at Further Consideration Stage to facilitate that additional financial support. Removing clause 52 would undoubtedly lead to further fines on the Northern Ireland block grant. For these reasons, I urge Members to reject amendment No 27. <BR /> <BR />I now move to amendment Nos 28 and 29 to clause 54. Clause 54 abolishes the special concessions that allow certain young people to qualify for contributory employment and support allowance without meeting the usual paid National Insurance contribution conditions that apply to all others. This measure applies to new claims only; existing claimants will remain on contributory ESA.”
“I reiterate that those in the support group will not be affected by time-limiting. Time-limiting will impact only those in the work-related activity group who are temporarily unable to work because of an illness or disability. There is no objective justification for treating young people any differently from others. Equal treatment should be applied to all claimants, irrespective of age. <BR /> <BR />As the House will be all too aware, the impact of this measure raised serious concern among a number of Members. However, in accordance with the terms of the Stormont House Agreement, my Department is developing proposals for the provision of additional financial support for those claimants who will be adversely impacted by the time-limiting restriction proposed for ESA.”
“The rates payable are the same for contributory and income-related benefits. ESA claimed on either basis can be paid until state pension age. At present, people can qualify for unlimited contributory ESA on the basis of a small amount of National Insurance paid. However, ESA was never intended to be a benefit for the long term except for the most severely ill or disabled, for whom work is not a viable option. In these cases — for example, those in the support group — ESA will not be time-limited. It will also reinforce the fact that, for the majority, ESA is a temporary benefit, and aligns the rules for the contributory allowance more closely with contributory jobseeker's allowance. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 27 proposes the removal of the time-limiting aspect for ESA youth claimants.”
“The proposal is for that limit to be 365 days. That change supports the move towards a simplification of contributory benefits and a fairer benefits system.”
“That is where we can have the justification to do what we are doing, always mindful that we have endeavoured, in these proposals and what is contained in the Bill, to ensure that we retain parity with the rest of the United Kingdom. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject the proposed amendments. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to amendment No 27. It may be helpful if I summarise exactly what clause 52 does. Employment and support allowance is currently structured into contributory and income–related benefits. If a person does not satisfy the National Insurance conditions for the contributory allowance, they can claim the income–related allowance, provided they satisfy the eligibility criteria. Clause 52 introduces a time limit for the period in which a person in the work-related activity group is entitled to receive contributory ESA.”
“Yes, but the Member fails to understand a fundamental difference. We are paying for it; it is not affecting what we are paying for. We have made decisions about additions to ensure that we have a Northern Ireland-plus or a GB-plus model, and we are paying for that out of the block grant. Therefore, that is accepted because it does not have an impact on our AME. That is the reason. Let us remember that the first package of measures was agreed by DWP and the Government at Westminster. This package of measures has been endorsed by the Government at Westminster as the outworkings of the agreements that we secured. There needs to be that understanding. When I make those comments about differential treatment, I make them in that context.”
“There would be potential cost implications for the Northern Ireland block grant if these amendments were to be accepted. It would also result in claimants in Northern Ireland being subject to preferential treatment compared with claimants in Great Britain. The impact of this would be difficult to justify and would create the potential for wider and significant equality issues. For these reasons, I urge Members to reject the proposed amendment.”
“This housing cost contribution will not apply to tenants living with an out-of-work young person or a student aged under 25. Amendment No 6, as drafted, would provide for a 52-week exemption from the use of the housing cost contribution in the situation of a person under 25 who is in work. It is considered right that the entitlement to universal credit, which is an income-related household benefit, should be reduced where there is available income. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 7 relates to a run-on in the housing costs element of four weeks after a claimant starts employment. While the housing costs element will continue in payment for those expected to remain in prison for up to six months, it is considered that where there is available income, a run-on would not be appropriate.”
“There are two age bands in relation to the housing costs element of universal credit; those under 25 and those under 35. A tenant living with a young person aged over 25 will have their housing costs element reduced by £68 a month. This is known as the housing cost contribution. Given that the housing costs element is reduced for those tenants living with a young person aged over 25, I shall deal with the amendment in that context. It has long been a feature of the benefits system that someone living in a claimant’s home should be expected to contribute towards the rent. Under universal credit, there will be a flat-rate deduction known as a housing cost contribution of £68 a month for most adults over 25 years of age.”
“It enables the award of universal credit to include such an amount if the claimant is liable to make payments on their home in the form of rent, mortgage costs or other housing-related costs. The wider reform agenda will see housing benefit abolished, with the rent element of it being replaced by the housing cost element of the universal credit award. Clause 11 will provide for the continuing provision of housing support for eligible claimants. Clause 11(4) provides for regulations to set out the detailed rules for calculating the amount of housing support payable. As I have indicated, two amendments have been tabled for the clause. I think that it would be helpful to Members if I first explain how I intend to deal with amendment No 6. This amendment refers to:”
“I am very appreciative of the working relationship that we have with DWP. On this issue, and as we roll out the introduction of the changes to our welfare system, we will be very dependent on ensuring that that relationship is as has it has been in the past, given the IT issues and the challenges of changing from one system to another. As we have said, the notion of developing and financing a stand-alone system has long since been set to the side. We know that it was not possible. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject the amendment. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 6 and 7 relate to clause 11, which provides for an amount to be included for the support of housing costs in universal credit.”
“Accepting the amendment would clearly breach existing parity arrangements, and it could have implications for Northern Ireland in relation to the block grant and in relation to utilising the IT system that has been designed for universal credit and is provided through DWP. <BR /> <BR />Let us remember that the whole issue, a number of months ago was, "Oh, well, we'll just dump welfare reform and go it alone". Remember the costs associated with having a separate IT system. I am glad that we have moved well on. Mr Attwood always says that somewhere lurking in the shadows of all this are the long tentacles of DWP. I remind the Member that we are part of the United Kingdom. The Mother of Parliaments is Westminster. We are United Kingdom citizens, and there is a working relationship.”
“I thank the Member for those comments. I am sure that the Member opposite will be glad to see that Mr Wilson has now graced the Chamber with his presence. I felt earlier that some Members opposite had withdrawal symptoms because Mr Wilson was not here. I am glad that he is here, and I thank him for those comments. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude on clause 10. If clause 10 is not allowed to stand part of the Bill, it would mean that we in Northern Ireland would have to consider an alternative means of providing support for children, as the Tax Credits Act 2002 will be repealed when tax credits are fully subsumed into and replaced by universal credit. That will have the effect of disadvantaging people here from obtaining support for children, including those with disabilities.”
“Again, the Member makes a point, but we still have to ensure that, when we put in place this framework, it is practical and deliverable. It is difficult — I think that this point was made even this morning by some — to have a situation where you will, in every eventuality, cover every circumstance.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. To clarify, I said that many people come to benefits directly from employment and that it is reasonable to expect them to use prior earnings to budget for an initial period of unemployment. The clause, as I said, limits any waiting-day provision to a maximum of seven days, and amendment No 2 seeks to reduce this to three days. I made those comments in that context. That is not in any way to minimise the concern that the Member has and has raised on a number of occasions.”
“When we focus on this issue, let us try to have some humanity and some sense of the impact that this has on families with disabled children and on disabled adults. <BR /> <BR />To accept the amendment that the lower rate should be no less than two thirds of the higher rate would reduce the amount of money available for more severely disabled people. <BR /> <BR />The GB Welfare Reform Act 2012 —”
“Politics, unfortunately, brings to us all that element of confrontation and the argumentative spirit that seems to be inherent in it. Let us remember that we are talking about children and adults in our community who are disabled. I say this again: let us remember that this is about real people in our communities. In the comments this morning, it was as though we wanted to fight the orange and green battle all over again and, somehow, if you happen to be on the nationalist, republican or green side, you are not entitled to anything, and if you are in the loyalist, unionist or Protestant community, you get nothing. That would be an awful simplification of what we are trying to achieve and an awful disservice.”
“Amendment No 5 specifies that the lower rate should be no less than two thirds of the higher rate. This amendment would seek to retain the current position under tax credits where the disabled child element equates to two thirds of the severely disabled child element. <BR /> <BR />The stated policy intent for universal credit is to create a simple, streamlined benefits system and to realign arrangements for disabled children with those of disabled adults when they reach the age of 18. This is not a savings exercise but a recognition and refocusing of existing support. Money released as a result of those adjustments will be reinvested in support for the most severely disabled people. <BR /> <BR />It goes back to my earlier point. I do not want this to become a trite comment. We can have a lot of argy-bargy about the issue.”
“In addition, existing claimants who migrate to universal credit through a managed process will have their award protected by transitional protection. That will ensure that current benefit claimants will not receive less as a result of their move to universal credit, where circumstances remain the same.”
“However, the lower rate of universal credit disabled child entitlement will be less than the lower rate of child tax credits. <BR /> <BR />Let me provide assurance to Mr Beggs, who commented on this during his contribution. Families that migrate to universal credit, and those families whose children attract the lower rate of disability element, will receive transitional protection. I am happy to say that to the Member who raised the issue. <BR /> <BR />There are other provisions within universal credit that complement the policy of simplifying matters. For example, for working parents, there is a higher earnings disregard for those in receipt of a disabled child element, and any household in receipt of disability living allowance or working tax credits will be excluded from the benefit cap.”
“This is consistent with the objectives of universal credit of simplicity and affordability. This element of universal credit will replace child tax credit as the main source of extra support for children in low-income families in and out of work, as now child benefit will remain separate. <BR /> <BR />Universal credit is designed to simplify the current benefit systems and will therefore not replicate the range of complex premiums currently paid to disabled adults and children. Money saved from abolishing these premiums will be recycled and used to target support for disabled people with the greatest need. The universal credit rate payable to severely disabled children will be higher than the current child tax credit equivalent.”
“Accepting amendment No 2 would have potential financial implications for the Northern Ireland block grant, as claimants in Northern Ireland would be receiving preferential treatment compared to those in Great Britain. The impact would be difficult to justify and would create the potential for wider and significant equality issues between claimants in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain. For those reasons, I urge Members to reject amendment No 2. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 5 relates to clause 10, which provides for an amount to be included in the calculation of a universal credit award for claimants who are responsible for children or qualifying young people. Under the provisions outlined in the Bill as drafted, an additional amount will be paid to universal credit claimants if the dependent child or qualifying young person is disabled.”
“The clause limits any waiting-day provision to a maximum of seven days. Amendment No 2 seeks to reduce this to three days. The principle behind the waiting-days policy is that benefits are not intended to provide financial support for very brief breaks in employment or brief periods of sickness. Many people come to benefits directly from employment, and it is reasonable to expect them to use prior earnings to budget for an initial period of unemployment. <BR /> <BR />Jobseeker's allowance and employment and support allowance currently have seven waiting days at the start of a claim, and the intention is to carry that practice forward into universal credit, hence the necessity for the clause.”
“He was probably watching his monitor, and, as a result, we have at least had one success today in that he has now appeared in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />Clause 6 provides regulation-making powers for restrictions on entitlement to universal credit even though the basic and financial conditions are met. Regulations under this clause may also be used to remove entitlement to universal credit where it would exist for only a short period. This avoids the administrative costs of processing an award that could result in only a very small payment. <BR /> <BR />Similarly, the clause provides for an award to begin only after a specified number of days have elapsed since the date of the claim. We intend to provide for a waiting-days rule, which is a feature of existing out-of-work benefits and operates to limit administrative costs.”
“Well, Mr McNarry. He was quite capable of going to the media and grandstanding this morning. Where was he yesterday? He never appeared in the House all day. Where is the respect for the House? Where is the respect for the legislative process? That, I think, shows the political grandstanding.”
“If you were to listen to some of the comments that were made in the media this morning, you would see that a lot of people really need to take a long, hard look at some of the things that they have been saying. I will say this: at least some of them had the courtesy to the House to make the comments in the House. Some of them never appeared in the House all day yesterday.”
“<BR /> <BR />Specifying the conditions for entitlement avoids duplication of provision such as the support for students and the state pension credit system. It also limits universal credit to EU nationals who attest a right to reside here and are habitually resident. In addition, acceptance of the claimant commitment will ensure that appropriate work-related requirements are placed on claimants to help them into work. <BR /> <BR />On amendment No 2, I want to briefly explain what clause 6 does. While I appreciate that it can sometimes be laborious and tedious, I think that, as we work our way through these provisions, it is important to put some factual comments on the record. I have to say that, if yesterday is anything to go by, there is a lot of inaccuracy.”
“<BR /> <BR />As is the case with social security benefits and tax credits, the claimant will have to meet basic conditions for entitlement to universal credit. Those basic conditions are relevant to the policy and are considered compatible with EU obligations. It would be highly unusual for there to be no basic conditions for entitlement to social security benefits or tax credits, as that would make the system unworkable. <BR /> <BR />Universal credit is primarily designed to support people of working age who are living in the United Kingdom. Therefore, the purpose of clause 4 is to ensure that people between 18 years of age and the qualifying age for state pension credit who are living in Northern Ireland will receive support appropriate to their circumstances.”
“We will return to the second group of amendments. I trust that we will try to make some progress on this as we move forward. <BR /> <BR />During yesterday's debate, I covered how clause 4 sets out the basic conditions that must be met for entitlement to universal credit. I am grateful that the Committee Chair indicated his intention not to move the opposition to different clauses in this group. Clause 4 specifies the basic conditions for entitlement to universal credit. Clause 3 states that a claimant must meet those basic conditions, as well as the financial conditions. Therefore, should the tabled amendment to clause 4 be accepted, an amendment would also have to be made to clause 3.”
“Not that I would use betting parlance, but that is me hedging my bets.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. In many respects, I share some of the concerns that he expresses, and those are the issues that I have been endeavouring to address. Indeed, when Ed Miliband was in Northern Ireland, I had the opportunity, along with the First Minister, to have a discussion with him around these issues. In fact, I also intend to be in London at the beginning of the week. These are issues that I take a keen interest in, but we have to face the reality, which is that, as all the pundits, including your brother, will probably say, we face the most intriguing election that the United Kingdom has had for many years. It is one of which we cannot determine the outcome. However, my focus has to be to ensure that I have had discussions with the Labour Party and with the current Government.”
“The Member who asked the question and who supports the removal of clause 69 will be aware that I have given a commitment to the Executive that we will bring forward the scheme and it will go to the Executive. However, listen to this: it will go further, because it will then go out to public consultation. It will not be done in the dark. It will not be, in some way, clouded in secrecy. The public will see that. There seems to be a failure in the House today to understand the reasons why we had to do things in the way that we are doing them. I go back to the point that I made earlier and to which I think the Member referred: there was an attempt to kill the Bill at the very start. If that had happened, this place would not be here, I think, and, secondly, you would have had welfare without any changes, any modifications or any help.”
“I do not want to be the Minister who oversees something shambolic and dysfunctional. I give a commitment that I want to do it in a way that keeps people at the centre of what we are doing.”
“The article goes on to give a narrative based on one element of the welfare system, universal credit. What we are introducing here is, I believe, GB-plus, but remember that we, as an Executive, made the decision that to do so we would fund it out of the block grant and not use our annually managed expenditure. That is the decision that the Executive have made; it is the agreement that we have come to, and I think it is time that, collectively, we ensure that that agreement is implemented. <BR /> <BR />Remember, there are many people who are watching this debate and who simply want to know that we are making progress and that we do not have a situation which has been referred to. I take the Member's point on how it has been rolled out in the rest of the United Kingdom.”