Mervyn Storey
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his statement. It will be noted that there are those who cry much about the environment and purport to be the champions of the environment who did not have the courtesy to come to the House and be present when the statement was being made.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Clearly, there are some in the House who want to continue with the same old, same old and get the same outcomes at a huge cost to the public purse and to farms in Northern Ireland. The Minister is absolutely right: it is a scourge.”
“I am sure that the Minister will be aware, having listened to the Member who spoke before me, that the farmers of North Antrim will make an informed choice about who best supported farmers during this mandate of the Assembly.”
“A pilot scheme has been operating with the Education Authority, the PSNI and the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust across 60 schools in the south Down area since September 2021 and was extended to a further 77 schools in the Newry and south Armagh areas at the start of February 2022.”
“As Chair of the Justice Committee, I am pleased to welcome the motion. It implements the provisions taken forward by the Committee in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021 to establish an Operation Encompass model in Northern Ireland, which is, as the Minister has outlined, a police and early intervention pa…”
“We had our final meeting of that Committee this morning, and I want to place on the public record our appreciation and thanks to our Committee staff of for all the work that they have done.”
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“I thank the Member for his question. Indeed, this question is quite topical, as Members may be aware that the issue will be the subject of a Public Accounts Committee meeting on 11 February. Trinity Housing Association received an advance land purchase grant totalling £835,215 on 27 February 2008 for the purchase of a site at 19 Downpatrick Road, Crossgar, on the basis of a 12-unit social housing proposal. Due to a prolonged process with Planning Service over site character issues, objections and amenity space, the site has not been developed. OakleeTrinity is drawing up its proposal for refunding the grant, which will be submitted to the Housing Executive this month for its consideration and approval.”
“Comments have been made about the Travelling community issue. I prefer to address the core issue, which is how we have come to a situation in which these concerns have been raised. How do we work with the community, including some of your colleagues on Antrim Borough Council, who have expressed concerns about the situation, to find a resolution in a way that addresses the needs of Travellers?”
“The Housing Executive commissioned comprehensive assessments in 2002 and 2008, and I understand that a third is expected soon, which will give us a view of the current needs of the Travelling community.”
“I assume that there is a question in there somewhere. Let me answer it because there is almost an assumption in what the Member says that the issue is ignored and is somehow being treated in a trivial way. It is not being treated in a trivial way. Maybe we could have an understanding of who it is that determines, for example, the accommodation needs of the Travelling community. The Housing Executive has responsibility for establishing the accommodation needs of the Travelling community through the comprehensive 'Travellers' Accommodation Needs Assessment', which is a fairly wordy description of trying to meet the needs of a particular section of the community.”
“I thank the Member for his question and for the way in which he has raised the issue, following on from concerns that he has raised. <BR /> <BR />We always need to have a balance in respect of rights. No particular group has an exclusive right in these situations. We need to ensure that the concerns that are raised by local residents in a stable and settled environment are not completely ignored and that those concerns are taken on board. Yes, as I said, there is an obligation on the Housing Executive to operate within current legislation, but that should not in any way undermine or underestimate the right that it has to take into consideration due regard to other people who live in settled accommodation.”
“I thank the Member for the supplementary. Considerable concern has been expressed by the council and elected Members in relation to this situation. This is an operational issue for the Housing Executive. It raises the way in which situations like this occur under emergency regulations and procedures. I have read through some of the comments made and concerns raised, and they certainly give the impression that it would have been a better approach if it had been identified with the community rather than imposed on the community. This is an operational issue for the Housing Executive, and I will check with the Housing Executive, before the debate tomorrow night, what other sites were considered prior to the decision to use the current site in Rathenraw.”
“When providing permanent or temporary sites for Irish Travellers, the Housing Executive has legal obligations to take into account the needs of both the Traveller community and secure tenants. <BR /> <BR />Under article 28A of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1983, the Housing Executive has obligations to provide such caravan sites as appear to be appropriate for the accommodation of caravans of the Irish Traveller community. Under article 40 of the 1983 Order, the Housing Executive has obligations to consult with secure tenants about changes that affect them. The Member will be aware that an Adjournment debate on temporary housing sites in Antrim has been tabled by Mr Trevor Clarke and scheduled for Tuesday 3 February. That follows on from correspondence I received from Mr Clarke in relation to the issue.”
“Will the Member accept that the sensitivity that his party showed when it supported the taking down of the Union flag at Belfast City Hall was an expression of how that sensitivity is displayed? He could not find another way to outdo the Sinn Féin element that is creeping behind him electorally. They thought that that was the best way to resolve the issue.”
“There is a duty and responsibility on us to ensure that we make available appropriate advice to the Northern Ireland community. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, the proposed provisions should extend to Northern Ireland. The changes to tax law allowing greater flexibility in how money purchase pension pots may be accessed and used come into operation in April 2015. To ensure that the tax change flexibilities are reflected in and compatible with Northern Ireland pensions law and that appropriate safeguards are in place, the changes to Northern Ireland pensions law must be in place by April 2015. I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“The changes announced at the time of the Budget represent an opportunity for providers to innovate and develop novel solutions that meet the changing needs of consumers. The Government have committed to working with the Financial Conduct Authority to explore the extent to which regulated advice can be made more affordable through more cost-effective delivery, such as the development of online delivery channels. <BR /> <BR />In addition, the Financial Conduct Authority is working to encourage innovation in a number of areas, including financial advice. It is consulting on guidance to support the development of retail investment advice that aims to encourage the development of appropriate, affordable advice channels for the sale of financial products. We will have to continue to monitor that.”
“The Deputy Chair raised a very valid point about advice. Since coming into office, I have been particularly exercised about the issue of the advice and information that we, as the Government, put out to people, not only on pensions but, as we move forward later in the House, on welfare reform. The question has rightly been posed: will independent financial advisers and the advice sector be geared up to meet the demand from April of this year? The Government expect that many consumers will seek further advice and will ensure that the guidance equips consumers to choose the advisory service that suits their needs. Recent research from the Association of Professional Financial Advisers shows that 83% of advisers surveyed have the capacity to take on additional claimants seeking advice following a process of guidance.”
“I thank the Deputy Chair of the Committee for his comments and for the work that has already been carried out by the Committee on this issue. I concur with his comments about these issues being complex and challenging for us all to understand. We certainly have to ensure that we try to make it as simple as we possibly can.”
“That does not change the effect of the legislation. Rather, it is a technical change to limit the number of categories that may be attached to a pension scheme. <BR /> <BR />I think that Members will agree that most of the provisions are somewhat technical. As I mentioned earlier, the provisions must be in operation to coincide with the tax changes in April 2015, and it would not be possible to take forward the provisions by way of an Assembly Bill within that time frame. I am, therefore, seeking approval from the Assembly for these provisions of the Westminster Pension Schemes Bill to extend directly to Northern Ireland. Subject to Executive approval, I anticipate bringing forward an Assembly Bill early in the spring.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, the provisions amend legislation relating to the financial assistance scheme, which operates on a UK-wide basis to provide help to members of underfunded pension schemes whose employer was insolvent prior to the establishment of the pension protection fund. The reference to "money purchase scheme" is replaced with a reference to:”
“They also provide for conditions to be applied on the conversion of cash balance benefits to money purchase benefits. They make provision for the calculation of lump sums from accrued rights to a cash balance benefit. <BR /> <BR />Thirdly, the provisions restrict the conversion of benefits during winding up etc and the taking of a lump sum while a scheme is being assessed for admission to the pension protection fund. <BR /> <BR />Fourthly, the provisions amend the transfer rules — for example, to ensure that members can transfer separate categories of accrued benefits if they have two or more categories of benefits within the same scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />First, in relation to independent advice, trustees or managers will be required to check that a member of a defined benefit scheme has received appropriate independent financial advice before converting safeguarded rights into flexible benefits or transferring them to a scheme that provides flexible benefits. Most money purchase schemes already insist on a transferring member taking independent financial advice before accepting the transfer. In certain circumstances, the employer may be liable for the costs of such advice — for example, in an employer-led transfer exercise. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the provisions relating to drawdown provide that the designation of funds for a drawdown pension is limited to funds that are held to provide money purchase benefits.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the main, the provisions relate to the following: independent financial advice for those transferring out of defined benefit schemes; sums and assets that may be designated as available for drawdown, the conversion of certain benefits for drawdown and the calculation of lump sums; restrictions on the conversion of benefits while schemes are winding up and the payment of lump sums while schemes are in the assessment phase for access to the pension protection fund; and changes to transfer rules for pension scheme members to facilitate the new flexibilities.”
“The Budget reforms introducing the new flexibilities require substantive changes to tax legislation and are set out in the Taxation of Pensions Act 2014, which received Royal Assent last month. The Pension Schemes Bill contains a number of measures to ensure that the tax change flexibilities are reflected in pensions law, that the two bodies of law remain compatible and that appropriate safeguards are in place. The provisions will come into effect from 6 April 2015, to coincide with the tax changes.”
“Most of the provisions were added to the Westminster Bill at Committee Stage and Report Stage and so were late additions to the Bill. The Bill has progressed through Parliament more quickly than anticipated, and the Third Reading in the Lords is now expected early next month. As Members are aware, pensions law tends to be somewhat complex and technical, so some technical jargon is unfortunately unavoidable, but I will try to keep it to a minimum. <BR /> <BR />The background to the provisions is the changes announced by the Chancellor in the 2014 Budget, when he proposed changes to private pensions, giving savers greater flexibility in how they access their money purchase pension pots.”
“The Westminster Pension Schemes Bill before Parliament contains proposals to establish a new legislative framework for private pensions, facilitate greater flexibility in accessing benefits and help people make informed decisions about what to do with their scheme benefits. <BR /> <BR />The legislative consent motion deals with the extension to Northern Ireland of measures in the Westminster Bill. The provisions primarily relate to provision necessary to ensure that pension law is compatible with the tax changes that will come into operation in April 2015.”
“They were the front line against a terrorist campaign and those who wanted to eat at and destroy the very heart of democracy. I pay tribute to our councillors right across Northern Ireland, some of whom were subjected to the most heinous attacks. However, I trust that a new day has also dawned for our councils, and an element of that new dawn is the powers that will transfer to them as a result of the Bill.”
“Those are things that have to be teased out as the Bill makes its way through the House. <BR /> <BR />If I have not answered specific questions from Members, I will be happy to correspond with them. I thank Members for their engagement on this, and I look forward to working with the Committee and seeing how the Bill is progressed. I look forward to the day when the transfer of powers to local councils will happen and we see the regeneration of our councils, which do an invaluable service for our community. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I want to pay tribute. We are coming to the end of these councils, which have served Northern Ireland through the most difficult of times. Our councillors are sometimes not given the plaudits or the recognition that they deserve.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. That raises the issue, and I look forward to when the matter goes to the Committee for scrutiny. It is not for me to tell the Committee how to do its business, but it is about its interaction with local councils, for example, and how they see that being rolled out. Do councils have a different interpretation, and do they feel that that leaves them restricted? I would not want it to be the case that they were restricted. Equally, we have to listen to the concerns that were raised that, if you make it so wide, it opens it up so that you can fund anything as a result of this process. That has led us to a situation where there has been criticism of previous funding processes. Does that take away from the focus? Again, that goes back to the point that this is about regeneration.”
“I am glad that he has returned to the House. He can ask for a copy of Hansard to see the answers I gave to his previous questions.”
“It should be about councils looking at how they can regenerate, be it their town centre or their community. Remember that, previously, my Department was constrained because of the issue of the number of people in a particular area. We worked on the basis of 4,000 of a population, whereas the rural community and DARD funding was able to work in rural areas. Now, we have the situation in which councils will have this power, because not all of them are confined within the space of a town centre. In some cases, the council will have many elements of our rural community in their jurisdiction. In answer to the Member, I say that he is right. The clue is in the title: it is the Regeneration Bill. Councils should look at how it can be used to regenerate their particular —”
“It is maybe the closest you will ever get. <BR /> <BR />Let me go back to the very beginning of this. When I came to the Department, it was the Regeneration and Housing Bill. I could not understand why it was called the Regeneration and Housing Bill, because the elements in it relating to housing were in relation only to HMOs and so on. I welcome the comments that the Chair made, when he said that he believed that those issues, which we have now taken out of the Bill, need to be addressed. We look forward to bringing them forward at some future date. We have to do that, but that will be in the context of the wider issue of the housing reform programme. That work is ongoing. <BR /> <BR />I think that the Member is absolutely right. Surely, the clue is in the title: the Regeneration Bill.”
“Yes, I could not agree more with the Minister — the Member. There is wishful thinking.”
“That is part of the work that we will do in respect of the guidance to councils on how such processes would work. So, we remain at a place where there is no definitive or final position in that regard.”
“Therein lies an ongoing issue. The Noble index is one indicator, albeit it always seems that its indices are the predominant set used when it comes to this issue. <BR /> <BR />I have had correspondence from Mrs Kelly around the affordable warmth scheme. As a result of moving from the warm homes scheme to the affordable warmth scheme, we initiated a process. The University of Ulster did a piece of work that took into account a variety of other elements that identified this issue — trying to deal with fuel poverty. That was an example of not being constrained by one definition. Other elements led to having that scheme put in place. We will have to come back to the issue and give clarity around it. Is it the Noble indices solely, or can other mechanisms, definitions or indicators be used by councils?”
“We will come back to that issue, and I look forward to the Committee taking up the issue in the weeks and months ahead.”
“I have no doubt that that will continue to be the case. <BR /> <BR />Reference was also made to the definition of social need. Maybe this is something that will be of help and that we have to do further work on. The Social Need (Northern Ireland) Order1986 does not define social need, which is almost a contradiction in terms in relation to that legislation. In this Bill, we have sought to define what constitutes social need, as this will differ in different groups, circumstances and times. The problem we could run into is this: if we define social need rigidly, it will inevitably constrain decisions in the new councils about improvements that are needed in their area. Councils should have the flexibility to decide priorities in their area. That is the whole point of the Bill. The provisions in clauses 1(2)(a) and (e) are examples of that.”
“The whole point of the legislation is to devolve powers to councils to make local decisions. That is what I have repeatedly said in the debate this afternoon. If you remove the power to do things that benefit an area, you have to ask whether there is any point in the process and in having this in place. We need to realise that, in one council area, issues will be raised by very vociferous lobby groups — someone made reference to this — that are not so much in operation in other areas. That is undoubtedly a result of the fact that we have a very diverse community with varying degrees of importance. There are, as I said, organisations that feel that it is their place and their space and that they have a duty to lobby as much as possible to extract the maximum amount of money from a funding stream.”
“I think that, for example, when we look at the issue of the Irish language lobby and the nil amount of money for Ulster Scots, we see that there is an onus on those organisations to see why they have not been able to process or be successful. It is something that I have given thought and consideration to within the confines of an application process. It is up to the organisations themselves to make those applications. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister has alternative wording for the clause in order to exercise control. No doubt the Member will give detailed scrutiny to the Bill when it begins its process through Committee. At some stage, we will see how that manifests itself in amendments to the Bill, either as Member or Committee amendments.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member for North Antrim Mr Allister referred to a number of issues and said that the scope of clause 1 was too wide. The Member knows that, over recent days, he has raised questions and concerns, rightly so, in relation to what is seen as organisations having received money where there is a question mark over the validity, the purpose and the reason why public funds should be used in those ways. I have to say that, with regard to some of those, there is an application process. It is disappointing to discover that there are some organisations that are — this is not to be critical of them — more proactive and more involved in the funding process.”
“Those are types of processes that we need to look at to be innovative. Clearly, we find ourselves in a situation where, because we have had, in some cases, trusted and tried processes in the past, we think that there is nothing else new or innovative that we can do. We need to be more innovative in this element of it. Some also have a concern that these will become problematic. We need to balance all of that with being cautious but not to the extent that we probably exclude a good financial model that could be used in a process as it moves forward. <BR /> <BR />I trust that I have tried to answer the issues that were raised. I still have some things to say. As we work our way through these, if any Member believes that I have not maybe given them the whole answer that they wanted, I am happy to come back to them in that regard.”
“I know that there are parties in the House that have a particular issue around the private sector. I think that, if it is done properly, within the law and in a way that is about enhancing an area and the well-being of a community, that should be given due consideration. When and where the market conditions are appropriate, we should encourage the development of community finance infrastructure. <BR /> <BR />My Department is working and will work with financial providers and partner Departments to explore the feasibility of new instruments. I have not got all the minutiae of how these would work, but I am happy to give Members more information as we develop them. For example, we have the EU's financial engineering instruments: the community bonds and social impact bonds.”
“This is not maybe where I feel at my most comfortable. I am more comfortable when I am out there meeting people on a one-to-one basis. However, that is the remit and responsibility that we have. <BR /> <BR />One of the things that kept coming up repeatedly, to the extent that I have started to read my way through it, was the community development policy framework, which was published back in July 2013. That sets out for us a commitment to maximise the resources available to regeneration and community development by supporting an innovative financial environment. What does that mean? I think that what it endeavours to achieve is that we want to maximise public spending in the most disadvantaged areas and lever in additional resources for private investment. I do not think that we should run away from the issue of private investment.”
“I was going through preparation for this, and be assured, Members, that I probably have to do more preparation than most because I always feel the challenge of coming to the House and engaging in this process.”
“It is important to remember that a balance has to be struck by providing councils with the means to acquire land that is considered essential for the regeneration of their area whilst having checks and balances in place to ensure that an individual can challenge the council's decision. I do not want to be in a position where we, in some way, restrict, but, equally, I do not want to be in a place where it is somehow just seen as a free-for-all. It is about trying to strike that balance. <BR /> <BR />Let me move on to a number of other issues that were raised. Basil McCrea asked how the Department will support the innovative financial environment, and I think that that is a valid question to ask. The urban regeneration and community development policy framework has been referred to.”
“They include the power to vest land or property in certain specific circumstances, as set out in clause 7 of the Bill. Those include circumstances where the land is required for a development scheme or in the interests of the proper planning of the area. The vesting process itself is set out in schedule 6 to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972, and that covers other Departments and councils that may need to acquire land for various purposes. <BR /> <BR />The legislation also sets out steps that a landowner can take to appeal against a proposed vesting order on their property. In cases of dispute, a local inquiry will be held to consider all the circumstances, and a proposed vesting can be subject to further legal challenge.”
“Given that the funding is transferring in perpetuity, it is important that the distribution of available funding across each council is fair for its need rather than based on historical patterns of funding that, in some areas, has maybe been overlooked in the past. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to some other issues that were raised by Members. There was a concern raised in regard to land banking and concerns that vesting processes are not robust enough to allow councils to properly tackle blight and various issues. My colleague from East Antrim has left us, but I will send him a copy of Hansard, and he will, I am sure, be able to read and digest it. The powers set out in the Regeneration Bill are exactly the same as those used by the Department to take forward its regeneration remit.”
“The model was consulted on with the councils — so, councils were consulted on this issue — and it has been agreed that it is the most equitable way to distribute the funding to the new councils. It is based on the population size as well as levels of deprivation, so there has been some distribution of moneys away from councils that have historically been extremely well funded towards those that have not received so much funding from DSD in the past. So, there was some attempt to try to redress that, and that has maybe led those who, in the past, have been in receipt of more moneys to feel that they have been ill-served by the process.”
“The money will be transferred on the basis of the regional rate system. I am well aware of the concerns that were raised. For example, one council felt that it was getting a bad deal in how this will play out. The mechanism is there, and it will be based on the regional rate system. That has thrown up some differentials for us. However, it is about where you draw the line. I do not think that you will ever get a transfer system or mechanism that will give you an allocation that will satisfy all 11 councils about the overall amount of money that they will receive. So, we have to deal with that over the next few weeks in relation to the Budget, and I will no doubt have to continue to give some serious thought to the matter to ensure that councils feel that they are not being left disproportionately disadvantaged as a result of it.”
“However, you will be aware of the Budget statement that was made to the House yesterday, and we will have a Budget Bill very soon. <BR /> <BR />There will be an impact. I take on board Mr Wilson's comments about the impact that that will have on councils. I would have preferred to be in a situation where the total amount promised would be transferred over the next couple of weeks. However, I have to determine how the final budget for my Department will look. It is an issue that, although giving us concern, we have to address. I will endeavour to do all that we can to make sure that we limit the impact and reduction within the constraints that have now been placed upon me because of the overall reduction to the budget that I have.”
“I can only give the assurance that, as the Minister for the Department responsible for this element of the Bill, that will not be the case. My word on that will, I trust, be fulfilled, and we will prove over time that it was worthwhile retaining it in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Let me refer to the budget. A number of Members raised a concern. Mr Elliott, in his first contribution, which was during my opening remarks, referred to the budget, as did a number of other Members. The questions being asked are these: what budget will be transferred, and what impact will the delay have on the budget? All budgets associated with transferring the areas of work will be passed to local government in April 2016. The figure that has been used was initially somewhere in the region of £60 million.”
“I want to make some progress on the powers to direct councils, which, in a sense, follows on from what I said. Mr Wilson referred to this, as did Basil McCrea. This power, which the Department thinks may be prudent to retain, covers scenarios where the council might be reluctant to take forward an important scheme for no valid reason. Mr Wilson also said that he cannot think of any reason why that might happen. I suppose, in a sense, neither can I. It is impossible for us to look into the crystal ball and to see and cover every eventuality of what may or may not take place. However, I still think that it is a useful power for the Department to hold, even if we do not expect it to be used frequently. I know there is always a concern that underlying that is some hidden intent or Machiavellian process.”
“Despite concerns raised around how some councils may abuse the powers, I have confidence that they will act responsibly and in a way that, I believe, is in the best interests of their communities; but that is an issue for them to identify. I think it would be ill-advised of me, in every circumstance, to tell them what they must or must not do. So, I look forward to the projects that councils will bring into existence that will enhance their local area for the best interests of their community under regeneration.”
“Yes, and I think that that would be what I see as being the intent of the Bill. It is about the local transfer of the regeneration powers. We are going to have a situation where we either give respect and trust to our local councillors or we do not. Every party in the House was keen to go out and maximise its vote at the last council election, some more successfully than others. What premise was that built upon? It was on the basis that the people who were being elected were the best who could be put on to the council; that they would be visionary, incisive and would know about the needs of their communities. Some parties did not trust their own councillors and thought that they better not have the power for another year. They will have to explain to them why that was the case. <BR /> <BR />We have to put our views into practice.”
“It is about trying to ensure that there is a management structure in place so that the scheme is delivered to the best possible standard, taking into account issues such as the one the Member referred to.”
“I take the point. In fact, recently, we have had to deal with some issues raised about a public realm scheme in Ballymena in my constituency in relation to guide dogs for the blind. We then get into a discussion or dispute around the height of kerbs. These are genuine issues that I think need to be addressed in a sensible and practical way. I do not think that there is any objection or any obstacle — excuse the pun — being put in place in trying to address these issues. For me, this has been an issue since coming into office. I have made various announcements about public realm schemes, and I am very conscious that traders, pedestrians and vehicle users have issues.”