Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“I support the motion. I had to nip out to take a phone call. Other MLAs have spoken about Carers' Week, and it is really important that we set aside certain days, such as World Health Day, and weeks for issues of this nature. Given that last week was Carers' Week and the fact that we are coming out of the pandemic, it is important that there is total cross-community support for the motion, as there is in the House, on looking after carers. The issue for a lot of people is that they are at different stages of their lives, but there is a universal sense that you want to do your best. Some of us do better than others. For example, in my family, we are looking after our mother. All of us are working, and we are trying to juggle, but it always falls to one of the siblings.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht an ráitis. I thank the Minister for his statement. I, too, share concerns about the lack of implementation of New Decade, New Approach (NDNA), particularly given the multi-annual budgets that the Minister is on record saying are needed. It is clear that you need multi-annual budgets to tackle the growing waiting lists. Minister, given that you are on record saying that we have almost 3,000 nursing vacancies, what discussions have you had with your trade union colleagues and staff side representatives on redeploying staff to where they are needed most and on looking at travel and accommodation for staff to ensure that the waiting lists are tackled and our staff in Health and Social Care are supported?”
“I thank Andrew for tabling the question. The Minister will be aware that the number of children, particularly in areas of deprivation, who have had teeth extracted as a result of poor diet and nutrition has always been an issue. As part of the deliberations about recovery, will he bring forward an up-to-date oral health strategy, particularly for children and young people and for disabled people? I, too, put on record my support for the Minister and, indeed, his family.”
“The obvious answer is to try to equip some of them to go to level 3 so that they stay in the support "bubble" — another word that has been introduced. The other issue is the withdrawal, beyond 2022, of the European social fund (ESF), which was very much geared towards skills. How can we ensure that the impact of that withdrawal is reduced and mitigated? How can we explore opportunities for level 3 for students who are ready to progress? Furthermore, how can we support our local training providers who are going to be in difficulties without that funding?”
“The Minister will remember that a couple of years ago more homes were being built in North Down than in North Belfast, despite there being three and a half times the need in North Belfast. Can she give an update on her plans to bring forward not just social homes but affordable homes for all constituencies?”
“Construction workers have used the area very carelessly for parking, and some of the traffic wardens are not acquainted with the law.”
“I thank the Minister for the update. She will be aware that people have been using the Lancaster Street area in our constituency as an unwanted car park. The residents have had their driveways blocked. Indeed, the emergency services have made complaints about not being able to get access for their vehicles and having to go on foot. I know the Minister's position on the matter, but, given that the area is right beside the York Street interchange, will she take this opportunity to assure people who live there and in Henry Street that, before any work on the interchange takes place, she will look at mitigations and environmental protections, including pest control, parking and all the other issues that residents need to see addressed? Their quality of life has been severely disrupted by the Ulster University development.”
“The Minister mentioned the Living with Water programme a few times and acknowledged that it is, largely, a programme for greater Belfast. What is her Department doing to ensure that there is regional balance, particularly for areas that need water and waste water infrastructure upgrades?”
“What support will families and, in particular, carers get? When does the Minister intend to publish his strategy on the reform of adult social care services?”
“The Minister mentioned the reform of dementia care services, which is crucial, and all the actions outlined in that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He has highlighted the importance of peer support. Groups such as Rainbow, HERe NI, Women's Aid and many others have been through similar experiences and have empathy. The Member obviously agrees that it is important that those projects are supported.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Again, it is not to be negative, but, through questions, we have got some statistics from the Minister's Department. The figures on prescribed medication, particularly antidepressants and medications for anxiety, have increased, particularly in areas of north and west Belfast. We need to look at what support we can give to those people, including talking therapies and holistic approaches.”
“Even the British Government, in which the Member put so much faith until they shafted him again and again and again, have asked for an extension to the grace period in order to get things through. <BR /> <BR />Without the protocol, things would therefore be really bad. I understand that, ideologically, the Member has to jump up and down, but, realistically, without the mitigations, things would be much worse. On that basis, we will not be supporting the motion. The Member will not be surprised to hear that, because he has already heard Colm say it.”
“Thank you. Again, the Member is misleading the House, if I can say so: some 70% of drugs come via Britain; they do not come from Britain. With respect, Jonathan needs to read his research papers. <BR /> <BR />The issue was the same in the debate about agriculture and businesses. Again, here are some facts: a Manufacturing NI survey found that the majority of businesses accepted the protocol and mitigations. Only 18% of them believed that it should be thrown out completely. That is a fact. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the Member was at the Committee when the Chief Pharmaceutical Officer, Cathy Harrison, attended. I also acknowledge the work that she and her staff are doing. They are doing absolutely everything.”
“Yes: there will not be automatic certification, but there are compliances that need to go through. The fact that that has been omitted — sorry: it has not been fully omitted; at the end of his speech, Jonathan acknowledged that, because of grace periods, the east-west supply has not been impacted yet. However, he then went on to outline the worst-case scenario.”
“It absolutely is. <BR /> <BR />I want to bring some facts into the debate. Scotland does not have a protocol, yet, according to Scotland's Health on the Web, there are 37 supply shortage notices in the supply of drugs, including antidepressants and medicines for epilepsy and other such illnesses. It has been completely ignored that the red tape is a result of Brexit, not the protocol. In fact, some British companies have, indeed, relocated to Dublin in order to ensure that there is free flow and that it is via Britain. I think that that is being missed, although I saw that Pam had put something up that differed from what Jonathan said in his outline. The notion that suppliers of medical devices in Britain face many new barriers to trade needs to be challenged, because it is misleading. To be frank, it is hyperbole.”
“I will say the opposite of what Christopher said: Brexit is bad for your health. Colm Gildernew, Sinéad Bradley and, indeed, Matthew O'Toole, in so many words, said that as well. For all its faults, the protocol is there to mitigate the worst impacts of Brexit. I want to correct Christopher: most people in the North did not vote for Brexit. I do not want to reopen that debate, but I want to put that on record. <BR /> <BR />The protocol is an internationally agreed and binding treaty. Therefore, the notion that 45 votes in the House can do away with it is misleading.”
“If a social value Act proceeds through the Assembly, as, all being well, we all hope that it does, how will the Minister ensure that each Department takes seriously its responsibility for procurement commissioning and tendering?”
“We had only weeks from when my father was diagnosed until he passed — he had very aggressive pancreatic cancer — but those weeks were filled with information, care and support. As Joanne said, we are people, too. Some people look at MLAs and say, "What would they know?". We do know what it is like. I think that you, Minister, have a coalition of the willing to get that into the Programme for Government. The people who have done all the work to bring the motion to the House and those who support people to have a good death deserve our support. I support the motion.”
“As Trevor outlined, palliative care is not about just cancer. One of my neighbours died of motor neurone disease and had the same palliative care team in and out. Their family was forever grateful as well. That was just before the pandemic. As we, as a community, did for other neighbours whose family members died, we brought bins in, did shopping, made a pot of soup and all that sort of stuff. That goes along with it. <BR /> <BR />It is also about advice and guidance. That is critical. It is really important that we have that as a Programme for Government target. It is important, as Kellie mentioned and as others have said, that families have as much information as possible and as much support as possible to help those who are dying to get that support and those choices.”
“We, as a family, will be forever grateful for that. When I looked at Seán's paper, I felt sorry for the people who did not have that experience. It helps with your grief and bereavement. Working with the team and knowing what to expect, which meant that we were able to cope, helped us as a family. <BR /> <BR />I looked at the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA) review. I understand why it said that there is a lack of clarity among organisations about how the range of regional structures work and fit together. That is something that we will constantly strive to achieve, particularly given the year and more that we have all come through. Joanne spoke very movingly about the number of experiences of families during the pandemic who did not have what I had. My heart goes out to them.”
“It was his explicit wish that he wanted to die at home, if at all possible. I think that, when he said that, we all looked at each other. We did not know what to be prepared for, but, at the end of the day, he lived a good life, and his wish was to have a good death. He was very open about that. The mission statement in 'Living Matters, Dying Matters' is exactly what we, as a family, received. A palliative healthcare team gave us an understanding of what was involved. He received the best and most appropriate care. He, along with the staff, spoke to us about what would happen and what would be expected of us. We also received timely information. He definitely had choices. His care was supported and coordinated through not just a health and social care team and a palliative care team but Macmillan nurses and others.”
“I agree with the motion wholeheartedly. When I looked at Seán's paper, I also looked at the draft Programme for Government and 'New Decade, New Approach'. There is a lot about life and about helping and supporting people in the Programme for Government. That is the right thing to do. However, there is very little about palliative care, even just in terms of what support is out there as part of health and social care. <BR /> <BR />As Kellie did, I would welcome an opportunity to talk about dying. I am of an age where I was heart-scared of people dying when I was younger. No one spoke about cancer when I was growing up. People went up the stairs to die. No one talked about it. That is quite horrific when you think about it. My family and I were privileged. My father is dead just four years.”
“Like others, I thank Joanne and the all-party group for bringing the motion. I also thank Seán McGeown for his research paper. I looked through it a couple of times.”
“If we are still doing that in 2021, we need to ask ourselves fundamental questions. If you say that you are for equality, show me what that looks like. We know what it looks like when you are opposed to it. It means sending people to join a long waiting list for mental health support, if they can get it. Our brothers and sisters — either they are your brothers and sisters or they are somebody else's brothers and sisters — need our support, and they need it now.”
“I'm just not convinced that your notion of conversion therapy is the same as mine". The fact that you are even saying things like that in 2021 is ridiculous. I do think that that is homophobic. I accept that some of the people with strongly held religious beliefs are not homophobes, and I take your point about being respectful, despite being really annoyed. This needs to stop, however, and it needs to stop now. The only way in which we can put an end to people being abused and being made to feel different or less human is to bring forward legislation now. <BR /> <BR />To end on a positive note, it has been a respectful debate, and it will hopefully end as a respectful debate. In 2021, strategies and legislation are still being blocked, and commitments made by Governments have not been honoured.”
“That is the only way in which we will protect people who face discrimination and bullying and will ensure that, as described in the European Convention under, as Emma said, articles 3 and 8, they have the right not to be tortured and the right to a private life. I could not help but be moved by what Andrew said on the radio this morning, and I was really proud of him. Like many people, he is saying, "When will this nonsense stop? How many more times do people have to ask to be treated fairly?". <BR /> <BR />We need to go beneath the skin of the amendment. The only way in which any of us will be taken seriously, when it comes to people's rights, entitlements and protections, is if we pass legislation to protect. In 2021, we still have people saying, "Listen, I'm not a homophobe.”
“That has happened to so many people. He was so lucky to have friends from Belfast and across the North who acted as a support mechanism for him. I spoke to some of them at his wedding and heard about some of the things that they had had to go through, which, I have to say, were and are shameful. What is even more shameful is the attempt to use religious belief to say that it is OK, when it is not. <BR /> <BR />I listened to Andrew, whom I have known for a long time. He said that he has grey hair now, and the fact that mine is not shows that I have been to the hairdresser while Andrew has not. The point of the matter, however, is that all denials of equality started in places such as this, and they need to end in places such as this.”
“My father, Lord rest him, was a working-class engineer. He was certainly not politically correct, but he knew about the bullying that his youngest son went through because he was gay. My brother is happily married, but why did he have to go to London to feel included? Why did he feel that, as soon as he turned 17, he needed to get out of here?”
“I thank Doug and John for tabling the motion. This is a really important day in the Assembly. There has been a lot of debate, rightly or wrongly, since the motion was mentioned, as there was when Paula brought forward the petition on the issue and when Órlaithí Flynn raised it at the Health Committee. The message to me is that the issue will keep being raised while the practice exists. It needs to be banned. <BR /> <BR />No one in the House has an issue with the banning of torture. That is what conversion therapy is. I have spoken to people who have tried to be converted. What they experienced, particularly the older gentlemen, was nothing short of torture. I am the proud sister of a gay brother. I witnessed what my younger brother experienced when he grew up. My family were like many families.”
“I am not being facetious, but can people now trust the trusts? To be frank, there is a series of reviews, and the public inquiry will start sometime, and I would appreciate the Minister providing clarification on that. While it was not on his watch when it started, it needs to be on his watch when it is concluded.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis ar maidin. I thank the Minister for his statement this morning. I can tell from his tone that this is just another debacle that he and his Department have to fix. I am sure that he will appreciate that, for many people, it is stolen years. Their fertility has been disrupted; their intimate personal relationships are impacted, and that is only a couple of examples. <BR /> <BR />Can the Minister provide an update, particularly on the impact of the investigation by the regulator into the consultant who was appointed — Dr El-Naggar — to reassess patients affected by the Dr Watt scandal?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as sin. Given that comprehensive response, could the Minister outline any discussions that he has had with his ministerial colleague in the Department for the Economy regarding workforce planning for the Irish-medium sector?”
“I will finish with something that came from the Northern Ireland women's team: see it, believe it, achieve it. They certainly did, so well done.”
“We have part-time players with full-time dreams. I repeat Mike's call: I want to see them playing in Windsor Park, and I want them to have ongoing support. I would like to see them supported in their journey to the championships. If the House could agree to that today, the IFA would need to listen. Those women are exceptional, not because they have given us joy or because of what they did last week but because they work in Nightingale hospitals or in schools. They are carers, providers and supporters as well. They have been nothing short of inspirational, but now we all know the mettle that they are made of. <BR /> <BR />I want to thank them. Like Michelle, I wish that their families had been there because they have been with them from day one.”
“Let us hope that the goalkeepers, the defenders, the midfielders and the forwards will all now become household names and that all the young girls who do not already know them will know them. I watched some young girls from St Dominic's looking at them as sporting icons, which speaks for itself.”
“However, their spirits, commitment and dignity shone through all that because they were determined to put themselves in the spotlight. <BR /> <BR />I also want to mention Denise Watson and Ruth Gorman, two sports journalists who have been consistent in their support of the Northern Ireland women's soccer team. You cannot mention the people who got the team to where it is today without mentioning women such as Julie Nelson, who has 116 caps. That is no mean feat. <BR /> <BR />I looked at some of the headlines over the weekend. Most of these women have full-time jobs, come home to grab a snack and go off to training. That is hard work, and it shows massive commitment.”
“I thank Mike Nesbitt for bringing forward this Matter of the Day. It is appropriate to do so, given that this is our first opportunity since Tuesday to discuss it. <BR /> <BR />The headlines speak for themselves. The women have made history by beating Ukraine, and a lot of the references in the media have been in that context. It is historic. Michelle is right to mention Alfie Wylie and Sara Booth, and I want to add Sue O'Neill to that list. They did the hard yards when the game was not popular. Sara has since moved on, but she will not forget where she is from: she will not forget women and she will not pull the ladder up behind her. <BR /> <BR />I had the pleasure of working with some of these women when I was in DCAL. I have to say that the conditions that they trained in and the kits that they got were nothing short of pathetic.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis. I thank the Minister for his statement. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you will be aware that, at the end of January this year, more than 20,000 people were waiting for a neurology appointment, with 13,000 of them waiting for over 52 weeks. What are you doing to support those people? <BR /> <BR />Will the additional funding for mental health services include investment in people who have mental health crises and addictions — people who are commonly referred to as having a dual diagnosis? Ask any trust, and it will tell you that it has seen a massive increase. We have seen it in north and west Belfast.”
“If I hear the Minister correctly, once COVID regulations are relaxed, there is a possibility that the Fresh Start commitments to Alternatives and Community Restorative Justice Ireland will be looked at again with a view to bringing forward the centre of excellence. She has already said that the proposed cut is not coming from her Department.”
“However, with that said and without contradiction, I think that we need to start to tentatively plan for the next set of regulations. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by thanking the Minister, his officials and, more so, everybody who has stuck with all of us for the past year. They have given us their patience. They have been through the most awful of years and are still sticking with us. As I said before, there is hope on the horizon with the vaccination. I asked the Minister yesterday about when the booking system would open up for Belfast, and I can already see that people are holding their patience and holding their families on the basis that those who are most vulnerable will get vaccinated. Like all colleagues here today, with the day that is in it, I urge people to stay safe and to look after each other in the days ahead.”
“I will not repeat what I have said, but further regulations will be relaxed when infection rates and, in particular, the number of people losing their lives is greatly reduced. <BR /> <BR />In relation to the next amendments, I am not putting anybody on the spot, but I would like to see some preparatory work done to see about, for example, smaller businesses opening up again. We all know that people are still being infected with COVID, but they are not going to pubs or restaurants. Those places are closed, so it is down to their personal responsibility. We all agree on that. Where we are maybe not at the point of disagreeing but are not quite there yet is with us putting out what we would like to see happen. None of us has the foresight that is needed to start that planning.”
“I agree with the Member up to a point, but, to be frank, in order to give a date, you would need to have a crystal ball. You would need to know how many people have lost their lives to COVID, how many are in high dependency units and, more so, in intensive care units, and then you would work your way back. Regrettably, that is the way that it is, and I completely support that. <BR /> <BR />I am concerned about trying to strike a balance. There seems to be some relaxation around click and collect, which I welcome, and I share the concerns about youngsters getting their feet measured. I have had the experience in my family of having to buy two pairs to shoes in order to get the right size. However, the issue for me is that we need to start getting into a bit more of a "What if?" conversation, and I assume that that is happening.”
“When that has happened, I have just walked out without my items, because I did not want to take the risk.”
“Sometimes. For example, is it up to each Department to bring forward the relaxations that it would like to see and for the officials from TEO, your officials and the officials from the sponsoring Department to try to work out what the best fit is? That is my understanding. <BR /> <BR />Some of the businesses that I know in my constituency have been responsible for years. They are, as the Minister will know, going through a really hard time. They are respecting and honouring the health regulations, and that is absolutely no bother. When I was in a big supermarket, I saw a very young member of staff politely ask a person to wear a face covering, and the rude response that she got had that wee girl in bits. We have all gone into a large supermarket and seen people almost congregated in the area where you get flowers, for example.”
“Those issues are coming up right across constituencies, and I know that, right across constituencies, conversations are being had about them, because I am being contacted by people from a part of my constituency that I do not normally represent or have many dealings with. <BR /> <BR />The other aspect is that the plan for the next set of regulations will all depend on what is relaxed with the Executive's agreement. Pam Cameron commented on flower shops. As you know, I was one of your colleagues, Minister. I am still your colleague, but I mean that I was your "colleague colleague" on the Executive. I am still your friend — sort of”
“While the youth workers and the police will do that all day long on our behalf, and we appreciate it, if the local community police do not know the youth diversionary workers, those workers may get hit with a COVID fine, which is the last thing that we want, particularly when they are trying to protect very vulnerable young people. You may not be able to provide clarification on that today, Minister. I am not raising that for the sake of raising it or to be mischievous, but we definitely need clarification on it. <BR /> <BR />Similarly, clarification was sought on those with mobility issues picking up cars from dealerships. That was rectified and rightly so.”
“Paula Bradshaw mentioned the fact that the good weather is coming and that a lot of them are out and about. That does not mean that they are up to any harm or mischief, and I want to put that on the record. In my constituency, I know of a lot of youngsters who are extremely vulnerable. Youth workers go out to them, as do the police, because they know that they are vulnerable, but they are technically breaking COVID regulations. The police have raised that as well. They are making a decision based on duty of care. There may be two youth diversionary workers, three PSNI officers and a parent or a guardian trying to calm down three or four youngsters, particularly at interfaces, which, from time to time, unfortunately, erupt.”
“It is frustrating when we hear something and then our constituents and colleagues ask those of us who are on the Health Committee what it means and we are not fit to tell them. It is not that we are being precious because we are MLAs. We appreciate that the regulations are coming and that we have a bit of catching up to do, but sometimes the gap is so wide and there is so much catching up to do that it just looks wrong, to be totally honest. <BR /> <BR />Last week, we asked Liz about the relaxations on two households mixing, and that is fine. However, the position on youth diversionary workers, who work with extremely vulnerable children and young people, is still not clear, and, as the Minister will appreciate, I have raised that issue.”
“The last thing we want is our brightest and best saving lives whilst we are being more relaxed about people coming here infected with more virulent variants of COVID-19. I appreciate that there will always be a need for vigilance, but it would be remiss of me not to raise that issue. Addressing that will be of some assurance to people in the Chamber and those who are listening to the debate this morning. <BR /> <BR />There is another issue that we still need clarity on, Minister. Liz Redmond was at the Committee last week and, to be fair to her, was very clear about what the regulations meant. <BR /> <BR /> As other colleagues and I have said and will continue to say, it is almost as though, by the time that the regulations come in, we are trying to catch up with ourselves. The Minister, as an MLA, will get that.”